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E.P.A. Is Said to Propose Rules Meant to Drive Up Electric Car Sales Tenfold
- spacedcowboy 4y agoI need more coffee. I first read that as "E.P.A. Is Said to Propose Rules Meant to Drive Up Electric Car Prices Tenfold"...
- DANmode 4y agoDo we have reason to believe that multiple types of demand for these vehicles will not cause an upward inflation of their prices? At least for the US market, the current price gluttony on new and used trucks has me wondering if they'll try to push things as far as they absolutely can, with knowledge that they can't as easily break the consumer trend due to related government interventions.
- _fat_santa 4y ago> Michael S. Regan, the administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency, is expected to announce the proposed limits on tailpipe emissions on Wednesday in Detroit. The requirements would be intended to ensure that electric cars represent between 54 and 60 percent of all new cars sold in the United States by 2030, with that figure rising to 64 to 67 percent of new car sales by 2032, according to the people familiar with the details, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the information had not been made public. They are not going to get the adoption they want because they are attacking from the wrong angle. Their new regulations intend to drive down the number of ICE cars being made and drive up EV production, but the issue with EV's is all in their price, and this regulation does nothing to address that. Most folks (especially in this economy), cannot afford to spend $50k+ on a new EV, this is why used car sales have been so steadily high, folks just can't afford these new expensive cars. I see this regulation backfiring, all it's going to do is keep older cars on the road longer.
- lockhouse 4y agoNot just the price. Really the infrastructure is the biggest problem. How do I go on a road trip from Miami to Seattle without very carefully planning around public charging stations and spending lots of extra time sitting around waiting on my EV to charge? With an ICE vehicle, refueling is practically an after thought. It’s even worse if you’re planning on hauling a trailer with an electric pickup truck. We are definitely putting the cart before the horse on this.
- dalyons 4y agoThis is such a tired repeated take. More EVs == more demand for charging stations == lots of businesses and tech rising to fill the charging needs, to make money. It will solve itself, it’s basic market forces.
- lockhouse 4y agoI think you severely underestimate the amount of financial investment that would be required if even a quarter of the current cars on the road were EVs, much of it needed in our already strained electric grids that go out during extreme heat and cold. We’re not even close to the point where EVs are a viable solution for most people. Particularly those living in rural areas.
- lostlogin 4y agoCharging at home is trivial and requires no infrastructure. It’s an improvement on going to a petrol station. Long haul trips are the tricky bit, but that’s surely not that hard to solve.
- pg938hkd 4y agoIt actually will require additional infrastructure or at least some changes to metering to encourage nightly charging instead of at like 5pm
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- elviejo 4y agoJust to confirm your point about price: On Norway they did give tax breaks for electric cars and raised taxes for gasoline/diesel cars, so making them comparable in terms of price. For more info see: How Norway killed the petrol car. https://youtu.be/OJtzuZIO-88 https://youtu.be/OJtzuZIO-88
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- throwaway6734 4y agoIt's signaling to car manufacturers which direction they should head in. More production will lower prices.
- _fat_santa 4y agoI get that line of thinking, tell automakers that X% of their cars must be EV and let them figure out the unit economics so their sales don't plummet. I can see that working, but I'm skeptical.
- renewiltord 4y agoIs that really true? Average down payment is about $7k and average monthly payment about $700. That puts average car price on a 72 month loan at about $45k. I would never pay that much but that is it.
- zug_zug 4y agoIs that true? The average new-car price in America is a shocking $49k (partly because people are willing to take out 7-year autoloans). For that price you can get an electric: Ford, Hyundai, Kia, Mazda, Nissan, Tesla, or Volkswagen.
- pg938hkd 4y agoIf you can get it. Wait times are 3-6 months sometimes 2 years
- matthewdgreen 4y agoThe average new car price is $50K as of January 2023, with the median on some websites around $42k. New cars are expensive.
- landemva 4y ago> Their new regulations intend to drive down the number of ICE cars This is a time-tested EPA approach which increases cost and complexity due to enhanced engine management, exhaust recirculation and exhaust treatments, and partial hybrids. The computers run heavy equipment diesels and you need a shop computer to successfully swap fuel injectors. Don't think about trying to swap exhaust treatment components without being the dealer, because serial numbers are tracked and enforced with huge core charges. Particulates are down dramatically. Gassers are not diesels and gassers are already burning quite clean. From a societal health standpoint, is this where resources are best applied?
- jokoon 4y agoThere is just not enough lithium on earth. Unless cars weigh 500kg or we limit ourselves to electric bikes, we cannot make enough electric cars, and there is not enough carbon free power either to charge all those cars. The world would require so much nuclear energy, and it's not possible to have both wind turbines, solar panels and electric cars and electric storage when there is no sun or wind. I'm tired of techno-optimists who cannot understand we need degrowth BEFORE we can use new technologies if we really want to lower carbon emissions. There is so much greenwashing it's just not funny anymore. Why can't we understand that all those companies are trying to save themselves instead of delivering realistic, proven ways to reduce co2 emissions?
- 8jef 4y agoCorporations can only save themselves through profit. Which means money hoarding through selling stuff in excess. Which means feeding the needs and/or perception of need through propaganda and marketing. Which works inside-out of the anxiety building infrastructure we call market economy. IRL, that means you can only successfully sell battery propelled moving machines if you have people buying them in excess, given enough people have been properly conditioned to consume them. Sometimes pre-existing conditioning leads to market breakthrough, some other times the need for profit call for conditioning fabrication, so-called consent manufacturing. Leading causes of eco-anxiety, which partly drives the market for such machines, comes from both sides. Wanna break the cycle? Be absolutely critical of each and every choice you make, considering that you are already fully conditioned on many aspects, and that there are no small choices in life.
- zug_zug 4y agoNone of that actually matters. The point is the market will fix it. Not enough lithium? Then price will go up and we'll mine more (remember when people thought we'd run out of gas by 1980?). And as the price and demand goes up alternative battery designs will become increasingly created (I must have read several dozen articles about new battery types being researched). In a single hour, the amount of power from the sun that strikes the Earth is more than the entire world consumes in an year. The physics are there, if cars go electric and it drives the price of electricity up, it makes it much more cost-effective to build new solar panels (because the profit you make on them is high). Basically this is the magic of supply and demand -- when there isn't a monopoly it practically forces society toward a direction good for all. If we taxed externalities we'd already be heading there.
- ihatepython 4y agoFundamentally, electric vehicles are a huge mistake. It makes much more sense to power a vehicle with magnetism. I don't know why we (humanity) is going down this path.
- Gud 4y agoWhat do you mean? An induction motor uses magnetism.
- ihatepython 4y agoI got downvoted. Why should I waste my time explaining this? It's not worth it. All I will say is electric vehicles won't work as a primary means of transportation.
- paulryanrogers 4y agoYou make bold claims and present no evidence. If it's worth expressing the sentiment then surely it's worth making a convincing argument.
- Gud 4y agoWhat do you mean “won’t work”? Already (hundreds of?) millions of people are using electric vehicles as their primary means of transportation.
- flangola7 4y agoPowered by magnetism? What process would that be?
- hyperhello 4y agoBRIO train cars connect to each other with permanent magnets. Not sure that's the best system, but there it is.
- sharemywin 4y agotrains?
- jschveibinz 4y agoI love my hybrid. It’s the best of both worlds, and I rarely need to fill the gas tank except for long trips-which are rare. I think hybrids are the way to go. I hope the new rules will recognize this option.
- dalyons 4y agoHybrids are ok transitionally, but will ultimately disappear due to charging infra becoming ubiquitous and because hybrids will end up being a lot more expensive to build than a pure EV.
- jrochkind1 4y agoDoes anyone know how this interacts with the current rules that people have said unintentionally incentivize production of larger SUVs? Would these new rules eliminate that? Are the aggregate emissions restrictions going to apply to SUVs too, or allow any other loopholes that accidentally just move more sales to larger (and higher-emitting) vehicles?
- bfrog 4y agoRaise the cost of owning and buying ice, lower cost of ev price and ownership. The rest will be natural. epa rules get distorted and piss people off, mega trucks are the result currently. We need the epa for clean water and air.