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Tim O'Reilly: Really, Google is evil now? Let's Get Real. How About Apple?

295 points by DanielRibeiro 15y ago

rexf 15y ago
tl;dr - Data is the future (what Google is collecting); Apple squeezing manufacturers on price leading to poor working conditions is bad.
- martythemaniak 15y ago
  tl;dr - Collecting data isn't evil, doing bad things is evil. Google hasn't done anything evil, by comparison Apple has and is celebrated for it.
  - anonymoushn 15y ago
    Right, as long as we maintain that illegal no-poaching agreements are a good thing, we can all agree with this :)
  - estel 15y ago
    No, Tim says: > There are many things that Google does that I consider as violations of its "Don't be evil" mantram (including profiting from ads from content farms, spammers, IP thieves, et al), but collecting and analyzing user data isn't one of them
  - cageface 15y ago
    Evil is perhaps too strong a word, but their cynical and disingenuous defense of their real names policy on G+ made it impossible for me to trust them to do the right thing with my information in the long term.
  - silentOpen 15y ago
    Collecting this much personal data across this many domains of the users' lives means you will never know if Google has done something evil with your data or not. By removing the walls between the silos, Google's centralized data has become immensely more valuable for them and a huge vulnerability for its users.
- brudgers 15y ago
  tl;dr - Google: based on our definition of 'is,' Google is not evil and Apple is.
ecaron 15y ago
I recently had to decide where my tech needs end and my beliefs begin - I bought a new laptop. Although Apple has amazing hardware, I had to decide if I was willing to support their practices or possibly use a machine that offered less CPUs/dollar. In the end, I went Tim's route and went with a company that treats its workers better - but it was a very hard decision and I was struck by the similarities between my purchase and the localvoire trend.
- Tomek_ 15y ago
  What company/companies are threating their workers better and how do you know that? I seriously want to know, not just asking to undermine your point.
  - juliano_q 15y ago
    Me too, I am considering to leave the macbooks (sadly) to support my principles but it is not an easy task to find a company that threat their workers better.
  - ecaron 15y ago
    Because this thread is becoming heated, I am going to bow out. But before I do, I looked into how companies reacted after the 2009 Foxconn stories and based my decision on who reacted, what they admitted, and incidents associated with them since then. Remember, not all Foxconn employees are forced to work with the same chemicals or conditions. Also, Toshiba doesn't use them at all. (I went with another brand, but am walking away because the Apple fanboys are in a mood today...)
- backprojection 15y ago
  My impression is that all the laptop manufacturers have their hardware assembled by the likes of foxconn. With which company did you go?
  - rsynnott 15y ago
    All the large ones do, yep; laptop production is bizarrely centralized.
amirmc 15y ago
"Of course, Apple never promised to do no evil, so they get a free pass" I think that sums it up quite nicely. There are (potentially) broken expectations with Google, which isn't really the case with Apple.
- harryf 15y ago
  Exactly. With recent privacy changes we're reminded of what we've known all along but have been ignoring; that we have next-to-nothing protecting us. We love all those free services and we're sort of OK with ever more targeted ads but we want to keep our illusion that Google are the good guys. Unfortunately its an inevitable consequence of Google facing a competitor - Facebook - who is willing to step over limits in sacrificing our privacy, in the name of creating a more competitive ad network. Google has to follow suit or risk losing their business. The question is where is the bottom of that race? Profiling people with tendency to get hooked on games and pushing them Zynga products seems pretty much like evil to me and I think we're already there.
- unreal37 15y ago
  Apple always acted monopolistic when it didn't have the market share, and now it has decent market share in portable music players, phones, tablets, laptops. That's why no one is surprised by their behavior but only now are asking them to change. Google always had market share but competed fairly ("don't be evil"), and only now is acting monopolistic. That's why everyone is surprised by their behavior.
itmag 15y ago
I don't know if I would call Google evil per se. Paternalistic and cavalier about invading people's personal space? Yes. Evil? Hmmm, I think that cheapens the word somehow.
wavephorm 15y ago
I guess Tim doesn't really comprehend the definitively Orwellian future that Google has in store for their users, and anyone who accesses any of their services. Centralized sharing and data storage, centralized application servers, centralized everything. All your data, email, communications, everything flowing through Google, and no hope of ever escaping their ads and related data analysis systems. Google appears to really believe that people are going to sit around like sheep and let them rape every aspect of their online lives, and I can guarantee you this is not how it will play out. This is not the future I want. And Google will one day find out the hard way how wrong they are about their vision.
- cjfont 15y ago
  Truth is that the majority of people are in fact sheep when it comes to online privacy, and aren't really concerned enough to the point that they would stop using Google's services.
- moultano 15y ago
  Rape? Really? There's some impedance mismatch in communication here that I don't quite understand.
  - wavephorm 15y ago
    Yes Google is figuratively raping its users. Google is using dystopian fiction like 1984 as its blueprint for control and survellience its users, and the modification and manipulation of information. You either understand this or you're the sheep that put money in its pockets.
    - moultano 15y ago
      I call Poe's Law on this one.
      - deleted 15y ago
        [deleted]
- 15y ago
sunchild 15y ago
Morality clashes with business priorities. Every single company under the sun deals with this fundamental conflict. The myopic lens of online discourse is currently focused on Apple, presumably because it got the This American Life treatment, and because it is the most successful company of our time – but there isn't a single business out there that doesn't have something to answer for.
- karl_nerd 15y ago
  While you're definitely right that the other manufacturers are playing the same game, i think it makes perfect sense to focus on The Most Successful Company of Our Time, just like the adbusters/anti-sweatshop movement did with Nike in the nineties.
  - Anechoic 15y ago
    i think it makes perfect sense to focus on The Most Successful Company of Our Time Sure, and Apple is (and has been) doing something about this. Hopefully they will do more, but as long as their competitors continue to make use of the price advantage of Chinese labor, there is only so much they can do. Unless of course they decide to manufacture in the US, in which case their prices will increase and we can go back to complaining about how much more expensive Apple stuff is compared to Dell, HP, etc.
Lazare 15y ago
Paul Krugman talked about the "Apple is evil" side of the argument many years ago. http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/smokey.html http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/smokey.html http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/ricardo.htm http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/ricardo.htm Key quote: "At best, forcing developing countries to adhere to our labor standards would create a privileged labor aristocracy, leaving the poor majority no better off. And it might not even do that. [...] A policy of good jobs in principle, but no jobs in practice, might assuage our consciences, but it is no favor to its alleged beneficiaries." Is he wrong? (Please don't downvote me just because you disagree with Krugman.)
- rictic 15y ago
  There's a difference between a job with low wages and long hours, and a job that poisons or cripples. I think that, to the extent that this exists, it's fair to call out the companies responsible. It also seems particularly egregious when there are known alternatives with much reduced harm (different chemicals, shift rotation to prevent repetitive stress).
- backprojection 15y ago
  These kinds of arguments strike me as apologetic - like an intellectual wild card that you can use to not worry about the downside of what you're buying. I'm not saying they're wrong, maybe he's right about labor standards. I'm just highly skeptical of this line of thinking.
- tripzilch 15y ago
  I dunno, did you read the OP? Maybe Krugman has a fair point if we were "merely" talking about severely underpaid workers making way too many hours[1], but it doesn't explain this: > The account of how Apple's factories substituted n-hexane, a neurotoxin with well-documented long term adverse health effects, for alcohol to wipe those shining screens clean, gaining a miniscule advantage in drying time but exposing workers to a lifetime of disablement [1] a fair point, which I will consider as soon as such a situation actually presents itself in reality. I bet it will be a factory that manufactures containers for thermodynamically closed systems, which are to be sold on a free market to rational agents. Now clap your hands.
ethank 15y ago
I can't wait until I can buy an American made Android phone. Oh wait. These arguments based on dichotomous binary are pointless. Nothing is as simple as "good" an "evil". Nor is Apple to blame on their own for the China conditions. No more than Google is by benefiting from it. It makes good headlines. That's it.
- martythemaniak 15y ago
  The box on the Galaxy S2 I got a few days ago says "Phone Made in Korea". Without knowing anything about Samsung's factories there, I feel very safe saying they're probably far better for workers than Foxconn.
  - Anechoic 15y ago
    http://stopsamsung.wordpress.com/ http://stopsamsung.wordpress.com/
  - ethank 15y ago
    Were 100% of the components made in Korea? Doubtful.
  - rsynnott 15y ago
    Samsung assembles most of its devices in Korea, but also has many factories in China, and is also a Foxconn customer. This is rather common for Korean and Japanese companies; there is some pressure to do at least some of the work in the home country, but it's not feasible to do it all there.
melling 15y ago
Apple is a client of FoxConn like all of these companies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn#Major_customers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn#Major_customers FoxConn has almost 1 million employees, and they aren't all working on Apple products. If we're going to call out companies, shouldn't we be calling out them all?
- flurie 15y ago
  We can't push Foxconn directly, so Apple serves as a good bellwether among clients of Foxconn to see whether the sort of pressure they have been receiving of late results in verifiably improved conditions.
- ecaron 15y ago
  Note the ones that lack sources and how hard it is to find those sources, which might mean they don't exist or the companies are working really hard to hide it.
- rockarage 15y ago
  I'm open to an alternative to Apple products, but I'm hard pressed to find a company that make computers that are not made in similar or worse factories. And why does China get a free pass in this ? Isn't communism suppose to prevent this sort of thing ?
  - hack_edu 15y ago
    1. China isn't a communist state anymore. Hasnt been for decades, regardless of any propaganda or rhetoric. It is an authoritarian state run by a single party that happens to be named Communist. 2. China does not get a free pass in the eyes of most. Its just that no one is willing to stick their neck out and take a stand.
    - Volpe 15y ago
      Which year (in your view) did China stop being communist? China is as much a communist state, as the US is a democracy... I think that probably describes it best.
jsz0 15y ago
Google develops Android which runs on many devices made in similar or worse conditions. They could change the license under which Android is distributed under to include a clause that it cannot be used on devices that aren't made under certain minimum labour standards. They don't. Are they evil too then? It's really a lot more complex than good vs. evil. There are many fine religious books that tackle that subject. This is an economic issue not a religious issue.
- juliano_q 15y ago
  You are really suggesting that a company create an open-source OS that is supposed to run only on devices produced under certain labour standards? OK, so if you put some software on Github and a company use it on any computer manufactured in China you are evil? This is the same principle that the iranian government is using on the Saeed Malekpour case and it is absurd. http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57362506-93/iranian-court-upholds-web-programmers-death-sentence/ http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57362506-93/iranian-court-u...
  - jsz0 15y ago
    Not really just taking the argument to its logical moronic extreme. Google could simply change a few lines of text in a license agreement and (somehow) make life better for people in China. It's no different than the people who say Apple should (effectively) abandon the Chinese labour market and somehow the Chinese people would be better off.
- Volpe 15y ago
  good and evil are not religious concepts. Ethics is related to all things, including economics.
brudgers 15y ago
An important difference is that one cannot effectively opt out of Google's data collection when using the internet, while one can avoid using Apple's products. Google is high-fructose corn syrup, Apple is McDonald's.
- jrockway 15y ago
  It's pretty easy to opt out of being tracked. Install noscript and adblock, and don't load anything from Google's servers. Done. (Not to mention the standard "do not track" support. But you might not want trackers to track the fact that you don't want to be tracked. So cut them out of the loop and avoid their content completely.)
  - brudgers 15y ago
    Noscript leaves many websites unavailable because they do not load without google-APIs. Some sites even will not load without allowing google-analytics. As for googles opt out policies, they only apply in so far as one is already logged into a Google account - hardly more effective than simply not logging in to Google. [Edit] How practical are your recommended solutions for the 13 year old children Google is now seeking to track? Never mind trying to apply noscript and adblock on a mobile device.
wizzard 15y ago
His argument might have had some merit if he'd talked about the posh working conditions at Nexus factories. For all we know those are made at Foxconn as well. And don't just blow off people's concerns about data mishandling. "We haven't done anything bad yet, so people shouldn't be worried." Go ahead and whistle past the graveyard, Tim.
- rsynnott 15y ago
  The Nexus One was. The Nexus S and Galaxy Nexus are assembled in Korea, but parts are likely made by Foxconn, which is a Samsung contractor.
beatle 15y ago
This is a cultural, social and political issue first. economics is secondary. As a foreign-owned corporation Microsoft, Amazon, Dell, HP, Sony, Samsung, HTC, Motorola, Apple do not have the authority, leverage or government support to change something that is so fundamental to China's culture and politics. This is the responsibility of Foxconn and the Chinese Government. Are we forgetting something? This is China we're talking about. Foreigners do not have any say in this.
- Anechoic 15y ago
  Foreigners do not have any say in this That's not true - foreigners do have a say in that we can refuse to purchase products from companies that enable this behavior (which includes Apple, Google, Dell, HP, etc etc). But we don't, because we'd rather have cheap stuff.
  - beatle 15y ago
    unless you can convince millions of people and companies to stop using laptops, iPads, desktops, servers, routers, switches, Xbox, PS3, Wii, iPhone, Android phones, Blackberries, TVs, DVD/BluRay Players, heck even Ovens, Washing Machines, Refrigerators, Freezers, etc. You're not changing anything.
    - ugh 15y ago
      Pressuring Apple to do something about working conditions seems like a good strategy to me that is already working. Apple is a big, juicy and rich target and their Supplier Reports show great promise. It might not be fair on some absurd abstract level (I don’t think Apple is evil but I have no problem when Apple is attacked for the working conditions) but it seems like a strategy that is very likely to succeed. Apple can force suppliers to make laptops out of aluminium. Why shouldn’t they be able to force them to better working conditions.
- georgemcbay 15y ago
  "Foreigners do not have any say in this." That's a load of horseshit. Foreigners were the lever used to end the Apartheid regime in South Africa due to the divestment movement which cut off economic support to the South African government, effectively forcing it to change. This happened not only against the wishes of the South African government but also against the wishes of much of the then-American government (under Reagan). Of course foreigners have a say in this, if they have the will to act upon their principles.
oldstrangers 15y ago
I'm glad some people have perspective on this issue. I remember MG Siegler's ridiculous article about why he hated Android[1] and just how furiously angry he was that they didn't deliver on some overly ambitious promise to take out the phone carriers. Yet when he (reluctantly) took the time to write about the recent Foxconn issues[2], he tried to deflect blame from Apple because they're simply an easy target considering they're "now arguably the most successful company on the planet." No furious anger, no outrage, just a simple "uh well shit happens, its unfortunate." What kind of hypocrisy must exist inside someone's head to be capable of writing both of those articles? What's worse is that nearly every article MG's written this past week or so has been about just how amazingly-super-awesome it is that Apple made so much money. Apparently it's all great to be the most "successful company on the planet", but heaven forbid anyone dare look at how those profits are earned in a critical light. But but but Mom, Samsung is doing it too!! No one is going to change their manufacturing practices as long as a company like Apple is reaping in some of the largest profits in recorded history using Foxconn style labor as a foundation. [1]: http://parislemon.com/post/15604811641/why-i-hate-android http://parislemon.com/post/15604811641/why-i-hate-android [2]: http://parislemon.com/post/16561630035/this-is-why-we-cant-have-nice-things http://parislemon.com/post/16561630035/this-is-why-we-cant-h...
- huxley 15y ago
  You had me up until "No one is going to change their manufacturing practices as long as a company like Apple is reaping in some of the largest profits in recorded history using Foxconn style labor as a foundation." You are doing the exact same thing that you accused MG Siegler of doing, you're minimizing an abuse of workers. I like Apple gear a lot and I'm enough of a fan to hate seeing them getting attacked, but I agree that they need to step up and force Foxconn and their other suppliers to provide as safe working conditions and fair employment as they would if they were in Cupertino. However, if Apple fails to, that doesn't give Samsung, Dell or any other manufacturers a free pass to screw Chinese workers.
  - oldstrangers 15y ago
    Of course it doesn't give the other manufactures a free pass... I'm simply saying that companies will more often than not try to emulate Apple's practices. Apple is in the best position of any company to fix these problems. So in that respect, applying pressure at the top of the corporate food chain isn't an unreasonable thing to do.
invisible 15y ago
I don't disagree with him about Google but come on... Tim O'Reilly complains about journalists and then becomes one by pointing fingers and not following up on the entire story. "Foxconn clients include American, European and Japanese companies. Notable products which the company manufactures include the Amazon Kindle, iPad,[5] iPhone,[6] PlayStation 3, Wii and Xbox 360." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn
Jayasimhan 15y ago
Apple's manufacturing should not be compared to Google, because they dont do any manufacturing. Lets wait and see what they do with their Motorola devices then comment on it. Until then, the best comparison to Apple's hardware manufacturing is Samsung who sell the most mobile devices. And where do they manufacture their phones? in Asia. And who do they partner with? Foxconn. The question that we really need to ask about Apple is : Is Apple worse than Samsung in treating its laborers? I dont know. But my best guess is that its the opposite. Google on the other hand is being given a hardtime lately because of the title Don't be evil that they enjoyed for a long time. That is not helping them to compete with Apple or Facebook. Now Page is taking a hard look at the company and transforming it to really compete with the frontrunners. To do that effectively they cannot send flowers to the war. And now when they pick up their weapons, they are being criticized for it. As much as I love Tim, I don't think he thinks critically of Google as much as he does about Apple. He might have liked all they did in the past, but the new Google is not going to play the savior of the world. They are going to bring in their guns to the war, there is going to be blood spilled all over the field, and if they have to win, Google will be responsible for the blood as much as Facebook or Apple. p.s: Tim is one of my few idols.
- deleted 15y ago
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- rsynnott 15y ago
  > Apple's manufacturing should not be compared to Google, because they dont do any manufacturing Strictly speaking, neither does Apple (or they do, but very little). Google has just contracted it out one step further. > Is Apple worse than Samsung in treating its laborers? I dont know. It's messier with Samsung, because there are three sets of workers; those in Korean Samsung factories, those in Chinese Samsung factories, and those in Foxconn (which contracts for Samsung). In the last case, they're the _same_ workers.
olivercameron 15y ago
Do we really have to go down that same path that we went down with Microsoft vs. Apple? Each company should be held responsible for their own, singular actions. If Google is doing wrong, then Google is at fault, let's not pass the blame to Apple, or vice-versa. Honestly, it's in the media's best interest for fanboys on each side to be at war with each other, not anyone else's. If you like an Android phone, use Android, if you prefer an iPhone, use an iPhone. It doesn't need to be a point of contention. Both companies have made mistakes, but we needn't go "Oh, you think Google is evil? Well, let me tell you about Apple". The truth is, it's hard to not be "evil" and have the insane amount of revenue's that these companies both share. Of course, this all depends on how you interpret "evil". Steve Jobs famously said: "We have to let go of this notion that for Apple to win, Microsoft has to lose. We have to embrace a notion that for Apple to win, Apple has to do a really good job".
- magicalist 15y ago
  It doesn't stop this topic from being completely inane, but he's really talking about the tech community's reaction to these stories, not the facts themselves. He gets a little lost in the weeds, but I think the real points are: - "dear tech news sites: you are terrible reporters" - "dear tech news site readers: you guys lap this stuff up, so we only have ourselves to blame" witness, for instance, the meteoric rise of this post on HN's front page.
- aclimatt 15y ago
  That's missing the point of the article, which his update was added to clarify. This article is NOT saying "why is everybody angry at Google for being evil? We can't forget about all these other evil companies!" That's the common problem a lot of articles like this one run into, but not this one specifically. Tim's point is that "Google is /not/ evil. Google is doing something that may seem evil, but is in fact not. Google could do something in the future that may end up as evil, but that has yet to happen. To compare, let me show you an example of actual evil. [Enter Apple.]" Apple is used to demonstrate what, in his opinion, actual evil looks like and how that differs from what Google is doing, therefore making Google's actions not evil. The Apple example (which could be Ford or Monsanto, doesn't matter) does not serve to to excuse Google.
jmduke 15y ago
One company's transgressions does not excuse another's.
deleted 15y ago
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mikeash 15y ago
Google is a huge customer of cheap electronics, and somewhat less directly behind the production of a whole lot more due to Android. Shouldn't some of the blame for awful working conditions apply to them as well? Unless their server farms are made only from components built in factories which treat their workers universally well (do such things even exist for everything you'd need?) they're just driving the demand that causes this stuff to happen. I think that concentrating on Google, Apple, or any of these other big Western companies is getting off on the wrong foot. It makes us feel all self-righteous to do it, but doesn't actually get to the root of the problem. Ultimately, those countries which host cheap labor and allow its exploitation are responsible for offering it. Perhaps not the true in small, powerless countries which can get pushed around by large corporations, but China certainly doesn't fall into that category. If we want things to change, I think we either need to turn our eye to the Chinese government for not enacting stricter controls, or simply declare that these problems are an inevitable result of poverty and industrialization, and that the only ways out are to either return everybody to agrarian lifestyles (which is in many ways worse than working in an evil factory) or allowing these poor conditions to produce economic growth.
- deleted 15y ago
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Aloisius 15y ago
There is a reason why Google's mantra is Don't Be Evil rather than Be Good. Very few companies are Good. Most are neutral. Google might have some diseased bits near its heart, but evil? No. Certainly not Good though.
sc00ter 15y ago
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/business/ieconomy-apples-ipad-and-the-human-costs-for-workers-in-china.html http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/business/ieconomy-apples-i...
sc00ter 15y ago
"You can either manufacture in comfortable, worker-friendly factories, or you can reinvent the product every year, and make it better and faster and cheaper, which requires factories that seem harsh by American standards,” said a current Apple executive. "And right now, customers care more about a new iPhone than working conditions in China." http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/business/ieconomy-apples-ipad-and-the-human-costs-for-workers-in-china.html http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/business/ieconomy-apples-i...
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bgruber 15y ago
i'm disturbed that tim o'reilly, of all people, is shocked--shocked!--to discover that apple's products are manufactured in some not-so-great places. it does make me think that this story really needs more mainstream press.
gumbo 15y ago
Disgusting, have you listen to this http://www.thisamericanlife.org/play_full.php?play=454 http://www.thisamericanlife.org/play_full.php?play=454 I swear, nearly had tears in my eyes. I'm not proud anymore to be part of this machine (we build iphone/mac apps). We are fighting SOPA, anyone who care enough to fight this fight. Any idea of what we can do?
- Volpe 15y ago
  It has more dimensions than is presented by Mike Daisey. I really is heart breaking, similar to the stores of child labour in Nike factories. But on the flip side, you pull the industry out, and those 'poor workers' become just 'poor people with no income'. So the industry needs to be moved to more ethical standards. Apple do "seem" to be trying, with their releases of working conditions. But it's hard to tell how much of that is truth vs propaganda. I guess raising awareness, will slowly put pressure on companies like Apple/HTC/etc to change these things. Someone needs to think of a system that couples a profit motive to a 'people motive'...
  - gumbo 15y ago
    Sure, pulling the industry is not the rigth way to go anyway. I think that the population of china don't help... more than a billion. I think that the world population is really the big issue of this century.
lukifer 15y ago
Large, publicly-traded corporations are highly incentivized towards sociopathy, with the only counteracting force being reputation and public opinion, which in practice still leaves a wide berth for bad behavior. The question shouldn't be why Apple and Google are evil, but why they aren't more evil. (Give it time.)
wes-exp 15y ago
This is the second time recently that Tim O'Reilly has publicly blasted Apple. Before this it was something about OS X. I wonder how Tim feels about iBooks? Perhaps what's really upsetting is the thought that book publishers will become obsolete?
- thezoid 15y ago
  I believe that iBooks also count as a publisher minus all the 'good' things a publisher would give you. So I wouldn't say that publishers are going to become obsolete, I'd just say if iBooks really does pick up we'll have 1 publisher instead of several. Doesn't sound good for authors or readers.
  - wes-exp 15y ago
    Whether iBooks is a good thing or a bad thing is beside the point. All I'm trying to do is point out the possibility that O'Reilly be could biased against Apple due to his business concerns as a book publisher.
- wes-exp 15y ago
  I raise the point that O'Reilly may have a business conflict of interest with respect to Apple and I get downvoted? Really?
napierzaza 15y ago
From now on I am Android only. Because they're manufactured in American. Oh wait, everything is manufactured in China. And Apple is in the spotlight because they make a lot more... Wait, if Android is winning, than there is more phones, and therefore more workings making Android phones? Time O'Reilly, jackass.
gurkendoktor 15y ago
> Collecting data isn't evil. It's the currency of the future, a currency that we provide in order to buy useful services... For all I know, data is mostly used to sell other services for cash, except a little more effectively. And blaming Apple for working condititions during manufacturing is missing the forest for the trees. The whole model of short-lived consumer electronics is absolutely terrible, starting with where materials come from, ending one some landfill where children burn valuable metals out of the remains. I think we could change much more if we would absolutely oppose the notion that it is normal to throw away cellphones after two, and computers after three years.
andreiursan 15y ago
Yet another Google vs Apple. In the article he gave example the Apple factories in China and the employees in China. But what about Google's yellow badge employees in USA? http://www.andrewnormanwilson.com/portfolios/70411-workers-leaving-the-googleplex http://www.andrewnormanwilson.com/portfolios/70411-workers-l... Remember?
czhiddy 15y ago
Tim implies that Apple knowingly ordered the switch to n-hexane in "their factories" (actually Wintek's) to improve production numbers, with no regard for the safety of the workers. Evil indeed! Sorry, I'm gonna need to see some proof before I believe that version. Everything I've read points to Wintek management (who have a long history of reported labor abuses) cutting corners left and right to make more profit.
shinratdr 15y ago
Right, because Android devices are manufactured in USA standards factories where people make $10/hour. What a load of horseshit, especially since Google OWNS Motorola now (something people seem to constantly forget, including Google employees). He has no excuse, this is just a completely ridiculous and unfair comparison. I might as well just say that Google is evil because they pay very little tax, and Apple is awesome because they give Americans good development jobs. Both facts are true about both company, but why let a little thing like reality stop you from ignoring that to serve your point? The consumer electronics manufacturing and assembly business is ugly. No one company is better or worse unless they actually demonstrate that. Apple at the very least offers their reports. Where are the reports from all the assemblers that also use Foxconn, including ones involved in some high profile suicide related cases like Microsoft? Oh right, Apple is the big boys so let's throw rocks at them. I get why the guy in the TAL segment focused on Apple. We can all agree they are an attention grabber and delving into "Well, Microsoft does it too" is totally missing the point in that instance. However, if Googlers are going to start casting stones like they are sinless because they just deal in data and collecting data is A-OK, I'm afraid I'm going to have to point out what a load of crap that is.
- wollw 15y ago
  It's somewhat of a moot point but since you capitalized "owns" in your post I thought I should point out that the merger still hasn't happened[1][2]. [1]http://androidandme.com/2012/01/news/motorola-provides-an-update-on-proposed-merger-with-google/ http://androidandme.com/2012/01/news/motorola-provides-an-up... [2]http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/248815/acquisition_investigations_drag_on_losses_mount_at_motorola.html http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/248815/acquisi...
aneth 15y ago
I do hope Google Plus is not the future of blogging. Much better to have stylized, distributed hosting with distributed syndicated commenting than the monotonous (and Safari on iPhone crashing) Google Plus.
cromwellian 15y ago
I may get in trouble for saying this, but here goes. No good deed goes unpunished I say <sigh>. Google, a company which has been more transparent than most other companies I care to remember (and I've worked for a lot of shitty big companies). A company which gives away more open source than most other companies. A company which hires people based on "Googley" culture, which includes, a culture of employees who actually desire to be open and to act against abusing consumers and often confront management if they try to do so. A company which has stood up for the internet and protested SOPA. (A company I'm proud to work for.) After all that, people still keep putting up batshit crazy conspiracy theories about what Google plans to do ("dominate the world" and other crazy shit in comments). Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, Google management, although in the business of generating a return for shareholders, is not in the business of maximizing shareholder returns at the cost of everything else, including abusing their customers, users, and employees? If Google's sole interest was to bend over for profits and shareholders (to go evil because that's what Wall Street demands), they could have cut costs a long time ago to boost EPS, or sold your data to direct marketers. Or maybe, that tens of thousands of employees, trained into a progressive culture of openness and transparency, won't just sit idly by while some kind of uber conspiracy theory using your data takes place? Even if Larry and Sergey were false prophets, preaching sermons every week at TGIF about Googley-ness, but secretly practicing evil, they still have created an expectation in their employees of being well behaved, and that doesn't fade fast. Google's been running lots of free services that cost a hell of a lot of money to develop, maintain, and host, from search, to email, to maps, street video, youtube, etc. Not to mention hundreds of open source projects, including big ones like Android and Chrome which are staffed by very large teams. None of this costs anything for the end user, except the ability to model your preferences and target advertising. For Developers, besides open source, Google runs lots of developer conventions, and hands out free hardware costing millions like candy. When you go to Apple developer events, how much does it cost, and how much free stuff do you get? You may think that is a bad bargain, so then, don't use free web services. But there is nothing inherently evil about modeling users via their behavior. A perfect search engine would know enough about you from your behavior, to predict what your question really meant out of a set of possible ambiguous ones, and that requires a historical relationship with the person asking the question. Google's privacy policy changes really is about simplifying the legalese as well as having single-sign on for its services, and combining data to allow all of them to better serve the user. We don't want to be like Yahoo, with 500 different properties, none of them integrated very well. We want our stuff to work together more seamlessly. After all, if you are trying to organize the world's information, that means aggregation. You may cynically think this is bullshit, but us poor naive, deluded, employees actually believe that is what we're working on. So somewhere along the line, we will have to learn the evil truth that we're actually been building a weapon for world domination. I guess it would be like working on nuclear energy and being told enriching uranium was only for peaceful purposes, and not for bombs. I suppose it's possible. But do try to remember, this company has a reasonably flat management structure, that it has tens of thousands of people who care a lot about doing the right think because it is part of company culture. That counts for something, at least, a check and balance.
fauigerzigerk 15y ago
Data collection is not evil and Google's intentions may not be evil today. But storing too much personal information in one place is evil waiting to happen. Data could be stolen, subpoenaed or lost for instance. Or Google could turn evil (I'm starting to hate this word) down the road. I'd rather pay in a different currency. About the factories of Apple's suppliers: I think the way towards better health and safety conditions for workers in developing countries is via local laws and rights. You can't rely on some corporation to police this. The problem is if a government is known to be a bunch of thugs with guns whose children are the super rich owners of the country, can you rely on that government to play its part? What if that's not the case? Do you leave the country and maybe cause more poverty? I'm not sure.
Craiggybear 15y ago
Google, Apple, Microsoft. All of them are evil. Of course they are. Once you accept that, well you can choose with which one to do business. Because you're going to HAVE to sooner or later. And in ways you didn't even imagine or didn't suspect they were involved with.
VikingCoder 15y ago
"Google’s mission is to organize the world‘s information and make it universally accessible and useful." Oh my god, they're COLLECTING the information that I give to them, in order to organize it and make it universally accessible and useful?! And they're giving me options to disable collecting my information, if I don't want them to?! And if I do choose to let Google collect my information, they're giving me tools to audit the information they have on me?! OUTRAGE! Google should figure out a way to organize the world‘s information and make it universally accessible and useful, without first COLLECTING that information!!! How long have they had this mission statement, anyway? Is it like a week old, or something?

295 points by DanielRibeiro 15y ago

rexf 15y ago

tl;dr - Data is the future (what Google is collecting); Apple squeezing manufacturers on price leading to poor working conditions is bad.

martythemaniak 15y ago
tl;dr - Collecting data isn't evil, doing bad things is evil. Google hasn't done anything evil, by comparison Apple has and is celebrated for it.
- anonymoushn 15y ago
  Right, as long as we maintain that illegal no-poaching agreements are a good thing, we can all agree with this :)
- estel 15y ago
  No, Tim says: > There are many things that Google does that I consider as violations of its "Don't be evil" mantram (including profiting from ads from content farms, spammers, IP thieves, et al), but collecting and analyzing user data isn't one of them
- cageface 15y ago
  Evil is perhaps too strong a word, but their cynical and disingenuous defense of their real names policy on G+ made it impossible for me to trust them to do the right thing with my information in the long term.
- silentOpen 15y ago
  Collecting this much personal data across this many domains of the users' lives means you will never know if Google has done something evil with your data or not. By removing the walls between the silos, Google's centralized data has become immensely more valuable for them and a huge vulnerability for its users.
brudgers 15y ago
tl;dr - Google: based on our definition of 'is,' Google is not evil and Apple is.

ecaron 15y ago

I recently had to decide where my tech needs end and my beliefs begin - I bought a new laptop. Although Apple has amazing hardware, I had to decide if I was willing to support their practices or possibly use a machine that offered less CPUs/dollar. In the end, I went Tim's route and went with a company that treats its workers better - but it was a very hard decision and I was struck by the similarities between my purchase and the localvoire trend.

Tomek_ 15y ago
What company/companies are threating their workers better and how do you know that? I seriously want to know, not just asking to undermine your point.
- juliano_q 15y ago
  Me too, I am considering to leave the macbooks (sadly) to support my principles but it is not an easy task to find a company that threat their workers better.
- ecaron 15y ago
  Because this thread is becoming heated, I am going to bow out. But before I do, I looked into how companies reacted after the 2009 Foxconn stories and based my decision on who reacted, what they admitted, and incidents associated with them since then. Remember, not all Foxconn employees are forced to work with the same chemicals or conditions. Also, Toshiba doesn't use them at all. (I went with another brand, but am walking away because the Apple fanboys are in a mood today...)
backprojection 15y ago
My impression is that all the laptop manufacturers have their hardware assembled by the likes of foxconn. With which company did you go?
- rsynnott 15y ago
  All the large ones do, yep; laptop production is bizarrely centralized.

amirmc 15y ago

"Of course, Apple never promised to do no evil, so they get a free pass" I think that sums it up quite nicely. There are (potentially) broken expectations with Google, which isn't really the case with Apple.

harryf 15y ago
Exactly. With recent privacy changes we're reminded of what we've known all along but have been ignoring; that we have next-to-nothing protecting us. We love all those free services and we're sort of OK with ever more targeted ads but we want to keep our illusion that Google are the good guys. Unfortunately its an inevitable consequence of Google facing a competitor - Facebook - who is willing to step over limits in sacrificing our privacy, in the name of creating a more competitive ad network. Google has to follow suit or risk losing their business. The question is where is the bottom of that race? Profiling people with tendency to get hooked on games and pushing them Zynga products seems pretty much like evil to me and I think we're already there.
unreal37 15y ago
Apple always acted monopolistic when it didn't have the market share, and now it has decent market share in portable music players, phones, tablets, laptops. That's why no one is surprised by their behavior but only now are asking them to change. Google always had market share but competed fairly ("don't be evil"), and only now is acting monopolistic. That's why everyone is surprised by their behavior.

itmag 15y ago

I don't know if I would call Google evil per se. Paternalistic and cavalier about invading people's personal space? Yes. Evil? Hmmm, I think that cheapens the word somehow.

wavephorm 15y ago

I guess Tim doesn't really comprehend the definitively Orwellian future that Google has in store for their users, and anyone who accesses any of their services. Centralized sharing and data storage, centralized application servers, centralized everything. All your data, email, communications, everything flowing through Google, and no hope of ever escaping their ads and related data analysis systems. Google appears to really believe that people are going to sit around like sheep and let them rape every aspect of their online lives, and I can guarantee you this is not how it will play out. This is not the future I want. And Google will one day find out the hard way how wrong they are about their vision.

cjfont 15y ago
Truth is that the majority of people are in fact sheep when it comes to online privacy, and aren't really concerned enough to the point that they would stop using Google's services.
moultano 15y ago
Rape? Really? There's some impedance mismatch in communication here that I don't quite understand.
- wavephorm 15y ago
  Yes Google is figuratively raping its users. Google is using dystopian fiction like 1984 as its blueprint for control and survellience its users, and the modification and manipulation of information. You either understand this or you're the sheep that put money in its pockets.
  - moultano 15y ago
    I call Poe's Law on this one.
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
15y ago

sunchild 15y ago

Morality clashes with business priorities. Every single company under the sun deals with this fundamental conflict. The myopic lens of online discourse is currently focused on Apple, presumably because it got the This American Life treatment, and because it is the most successful company of our time – but there isn't a single business out there that doesn't have something to answer for.

karl_nerd 15y ago
While you're definitely right that the other manufacturers are playing the same game, i think it makes perfect sense to focus on The Most Successful Company of Our Time, just like the adbusters/anti-sweatshop movement did with Nike in the nineties.
- Anechoic 15y ago
  i think it makes perfect sense to focus on The Most Successful Company of Our Time Sure, and Apple is (and has been) doing something about this. Hopefully they will do more, but as long as their competitors continue to make use of the price advantage of Chinese labor, there is only so much they can do. Unless of course they decide to manufacture in the US, in which case their prices will increase and we can go back to complaining about how much more expensive Apple stuff is compared to Dell, HP, etc.

Lazare 15y ago

Paul Krugman talked about the "Apple is evil" side of the argument many years ago. http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/smokey.html http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/smokey.html http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/ricardo.htm http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/ricardo.htm Key quote: "At best, forcing developing countries to adhere to our labor standards would create a privileged labor aristocracy, leaving the poor majority no better off. And it might not even do that. [...] A policy of good jobs in principle, but no jobs in practice, might assuage our consciences, but it is no favor to its alleged beneficiaries." Is he wrong? (Please don't downvote me just because you disagree with Krugman.)

rictic 15y ago
There's a difference between a job with low wages and long hours, and a job that poisons or cripples. I think that, to the extent that this exists, it's fair to call out the companies responsible. It also seems particularly egregious when there are known alternatives with much reduced harm (different chemicals, shift rotation to prevent repetitive stress).
backprojection 15y ago
These kinds of arguments strike me as apologetic - like an intellectual wild card that you can use to not worry about the downside of what you're buying. I'm not saying they're wrong, maybe he's right about labor standards. I'm just highly skeptical of this line of thinking.
tripzilch 15y ago
I dunno, did you read the OP? Maybe Krugman has a fair point if we were "merely" talking about severely underpaid workers making way too many hours[1], but it doesn't explain this: > The account of how Apple's factories substituted n-hexane, a neurotoxin with well-documented long term adverse health effects, for alcohol to wipe those shining screens clean, gaining a miniscule advantage in drying time but exposing workers to a lifetime of disablement [1] a fair point, which I will consider as soon as such a situation actually presents itself in reality. I bet it will be a factory that manufactures containers for thermodynamically closed systems, which are to be sold on a free market to rational agents. Now clap your hands.

ethank 15y ago

I can't wait until I can buy an American made Android phone. Oh wait. These arguments based on dichotomous binary are pointless. Nothing is as simple as "good" an "evil". Nor is Apple to blame on their own for the China conditions. No more than Google is by benefiting from it. It makes good headlines. That's it.

martythemaniak 15y ago
The box on the Galaxy S2 I got a few days ago says "Phone Made in Korea". Without knowing anything about Samsung's factories there, I feel very safe saying they're probably far better for workers than Foxconn.
- Anechoic 15y ago
  http://stopsamsung.wordpress.com/ http://stopsamsung.wordpress.com/
- ethank 15y ago
  Were 100% of the components made in Korea? Doubtful.
- rsynnott 15y ago
  Samsung assembles most of its devices in Korea, but also has many factories in China, and is also a Foxconn customer. This is rather common for Korean and Japanese companies; there is some pressure to do at least some of the work in the home country, but it's not feasible to do it all there.

melling 15y ago

Apple is a client of FoxConn like all of these companies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn#Major_customers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn#Major_customers FoxConn has almost 1 million employees, and they aren't all working on Apple products. If we're going to call out companies, shouldn't we be calling out them all?

flurie 15y ago
We can't push Foxconn directly, so Apple serves as a good bellwether among clients of Foxconn to see whether the sort of pressure they have been receiving of late results in verifiably improved conditions.
ecaron 15y ago
Note the ones that lack sources and how hard it is to find those sources, which might mean they don't exist or the companies are working really hard to hide it.
rockarage 15y ago
I'm open to an alternative to Apple products, but I'm hard pressed to find a company that make computers that are not made in similar or worse factories. And why does China get a free pass in this ? Isn't communism suppose to prevent this sort of thing ?
- hack_edu 15y ago
  1. China isn't a communist state anymore. Hasnt been for decades, regardless of any propaganda or rhetoric. It is an authoritarian state run by a single party that happens to be named Communist. 2. China does not get a free pass in the eyes of most. Its just that no one is willing to stick their neck out and take a stand.
  - Volpe 15y ago
    Which year (in your view) did China stop being communist? China is as much a communist state, as the US is a democracy... I think that probably describes it best.

jsz0 15y ago

Google develops Android which runs on many devices made in similar or worse conditions. They could change the license under which Android is distributed under to include a clause that it cannot be used on devices that aren't made under certain minimum labour standards. They don't. Are they evil too then? It's really a lot more complex than good vs. evil. There are many fine religious books that tackle that subject. This is an economic issue not a religious issue.

juliano_q 15y ago
You are really suggesting that a company create an open-source OS that is supposed to run only on devices produced under certain labour standards? OK, so if you put some software on Github and a company use it on any computer manufactured in China you are evil? This is the same principle that the iranian government is using on the Saeed Malekpour case and it is absurd. http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57362506-93/iranian-court-upholds-web-programmers-death-sentence/ http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57362506-93/iranian-court-u...
- jsz0 15y ago
  Not really just taking the argument to its logical moronic extreme. Google could simply change a few lines of text in a license agreement and (somehow) make life better for people in China. It's no different than the people who say Apple should (effectively) abandon the Chinese labour market and somehow the Chinese people would be better off.
Volpe 15y ago
good and evil are not religious concepts. Ethics is related to all things, including economics.

brudgers 15y ago

An important difference is that one cannot effectively opt out of Google's data collection when using the internet, while one can avoid using Apple's products. Google is high-fructose corn syrup, Apple is McDonald's.

jrockway 15y ago
It's pretty easy to opt out of being tracked. Install noscript and adblock, and don't load anything from Google's servers. Done. (Not to mention the standard "do not track" support. But you might not want trackers to track the fact that you don't want to be tracked. So cut them out of the loop and avoid their content completely.)
- brudgers 15y ago
  Noscript leaves many websites unavailable because they do not load without google-APIs. Some sites even will not load without allowing google-analytics. As for googles opt out policies, they only apply in so far as one is already logged into a Google account - hardly more effective than simply not logging in to Google. [Edit] How practical are your recommended solutions for the 13 year old children Google is now seeking to track? Never mind trying to apply noscript and adblock on a mobile device.

wizzard 15y ago

His argument might have had some merit if he'd talked about the posh working conditions at Nexus factories. For all we know those are made at Foxconn as well. And don't just blow off people's concerns about data mishandling. "We haven't done anything bad yet, so people shouldn't be worried." Go ahead and whistle past the graveyard, Tim.

rsynnott 15y ago
The Nexus One was. The Nexus S and Galaxy Nexus are assembled in Korea, but parts are likely made by Foxconn, which is a Samsung contractor.

beatle 15y ago

This is a cultural, social and political issue first. economics is secondary. As a foreign-owned corporation Microsoft, Amazon, Dell, HP, Sony, Samsung, HTC, Motorola, Apple do not have the authority, leverage or government support to change something that is so fundamental to China's culture and politics. This is the responsibility of Foxconn and the Chinese Government. Are we forgetting something? This is China we're talking about. Foreigners do not have any say in this.

Anechoic 15y ago
Foreigners do not have any say in this That's not true - foreigners do have a say in that we can refuse to purchase products from companies that enable this behavior (which includes Apple, Google, Dell, HP, etc etc). But we don't, because we'd rather have cheap stuff.
- beatle 15y ago
  unless you can convince millions of people and companies to stop using laptops, iPads, desktops, servers, routers, switches, Xbox, PS3, Wii, iPhone, Android phones, Blackberries, TVs, DVD/BluRay Players, heck even Ovens, Washing Machines, Refrigerators, Freezers, etc. You're not changing anything.
  - ugh 15y ago
    Pressuring Apple to do something about working conditions seems like a good strategy to me that is already working. Apple is a big, juicy and rich target and their Supplier Reports show great promise. It might not be fair on some absurd abstract level (I don’t think Apple is evil but I have no problem when Apple is attacked for the working conditions) but it seems like a strategy that is very likely to succeed. Apple can force suppliers to make laptops out of aluminium. Why shouldn’t they be able to force them to better working conditions.
georgemcbay 15y ago
"Foreigners do not have any say in this." That's a load of horseshit. Foreigners were the lever used to end the Apartheid regime in South Africa due to the divestment movement which cut off economic support to the South African government, effectively forcing it to change. This happened not only against the wishes of the South African government but also against the wishes of much of the then-American government (under Reagan). Of course foreigners have a say in this, if they have the will to act upon their principles.

oldstrangers 15y ago

I'm glad some people have perspective on this issue. I remember MG Siegler's ridiculous article about why he hated Android[1] and just how furiously angry he was that they didn't deliver on some overly ambitious promise to take out the phone carriers. Yet when he (reluctantly) took the time to write about the recent Foxconn issues[2], he tried to deflect blame from Apple because they're simply an easy target considering they're "now arguably the most successful company on the planet." No furious anger, no outrage, just a simple "uh well shit happens, its unfortunate." What kind of hypocrisy must exist inside someone's head to be capable of writing both of those articles? What's worse is that nearly every article MG's written this past week or so has been about just how amazingly-super-awesome it is that Apple made so much money. Apparently it's all great to be the most "successful company on the planet", but heaven forbid anyone dare look at how those profits are earned in a critical light. But but but Mom, Samsung is doing it too!! No one is going to change their manufacturing practices as long as a company like Apple is reaping in some of the largest profits in recorded history using Foxconn style labor as a foundation. [1]: http://parislemon.com/post/15604811641/why-i-hate-android http://parislemon.com/post/15604811641/why-i-hate-android [2]: http://parislemon.com/post/16561630035/this-is-why-we-cant-have-nice-things http://parislemon.com/post/16561630035/this-is-why-we-cant-h...

huxley 15y ago
You had me up until "No one is going to change their manufacturing practices as long as a company like Apple is reaping in some of the largest profits in recorded history using Foxconn style labor as a foundation." You are doing the exact same thing that you accused MG Siegler of doing, you're minimizing an abuse of workers. I like Apple gear a lot and I'm enough of a fan to hate seeing them getting attacked, but I agree that they need to step up and force Foxconn and their other suppliers to provide as safe working conditions and fair employment as they would if they were in Cupertino. However, if Apple fails to, that doesn't give Samsung, Dell or any other manufacturers a free pass to screw Chinese workers.
- oldstrangers 15y ago
  Of course it doesn't give the other manufactures a free pass... I'm simply saying that companies will more often than not try to emulate Apple's practices. Apple is in the best position of any company to fix these problems. So in that respect, applying pressure at the top of the corporate food chain isn't an unreasonable thing to do.

invisible 15y ago

I don't disagree with him about Google but come on... Tim O'Reilly complains about journalists and then becomes one by pointing fingers and not following up on the entire story. "Foxconn clients include American, European and Japanese companies. Notable products which the company manufactures include the Amazon Kindle, iPad,[5] iPhone,[6] PlayStation 3, Wii and Xbox 360." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn

Jayasimhan 15y ago

Apple's manufacturing should not be compared to Google, because they dont do any manufacturing. Lets wait and see what they do with their Motorola devices then comment on it. Until then, the best comparison to Apple's hardware manufacturing is Samsung who sell the most mobile devices. And where do they manufacture their phones? in Asia. And who do they partner with? Foxconn. The question that we really need to ask about Apple is : Is Apple worse than Samsung in treating its laborers? I dont know. But my best guess is that its the opposite. Google on the other hand is being given a hardtime lately because of the title Don't be evil that they enjoyed for a long time. That is not helping them to compete with Apple or Facebook. Now Page is taking a hard look at the company and transforming it to really compete with the frontrunners. To do that effectively they cannot send flowers to the war. And now when they pick up their weapons, they are being criticized for it. As much as I love Tim, I don't think he thinks critically of Google as much as he does about Apple. He might have liked all they did in the past, but the new Google is not going to play the savior of the world. They are going to bring in their guns to the war, there is going to be blood spilled all over the field, and if they have to win, Google will be responsible for the blood as much as Facebook or Apple. p.s: Tim is one of my few idols.

deleted 15y ago
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rsynnott 15y ago
> Apple's manufacturing should not be compared to Google, because they dont do any manufacturing Strictly speaking, neither does Apple (or they do, but very little). Google has just contracted it out one step further. > Is Apple worse than Samsung in treating its laborers? I dont know. It's messier with Samsung, because there are three sets of workers; those in Korean Samsung factories, those in Chinese Samsung factories, and those in Foxconn (which contracts for Samsung). In the last case, they're the _same_ workers.

olivercameron 15y ago

Do we really have to go down that same path that we went down with Microsoft vs. Apple? Each company should be held responsible for their own, singular actions. If Google is doing wrong, then Google is at fault, let's not pass the blame to Apple, or vice-versa. Honestly, it's in the media's best interest for fanboys on each side to be at war with each other, not anyone else's. If you like an Android phone, use Android, if you prefer an iPhone, use an iPhone. It doesn't need to be a point of contention. Both companies have made mistakes, but we needn't go "Oh, you think Google is evil? Well, let me tell you about Apple". The truth is, it's hard to not be "evil" and have the insane amount of revenue's that these companies both share. Of course, this all depends on how you interpret "evil". Steve Jobs famously said: "We have to let go of this notion that for Apple to win, Microsoft has to lose. We have to embrace a notion that for Apple to win, Apple has to do a really good job".

magicalist 15y ago
It doesn't stop this topic from being completely inane, but he's really talking about the tech community's reaction to these stories, not the facts themselves. He gets a little lost in the weeds, but I think the real points are: - "dear tech news sites: you are terrible reporters" - "dear tech news site readers: you guys lap this stuff up, so we only have ourselves to blame" witness, for instance, the meteoric rise of this post on HN's front page.
aclimatt 15y ago
That's missing the point of the article, which his update was added to clarify. This article is NOT saying "why is everybody angry at Google for being evil? We can't forget about all these other evil companies!" That's the common problem a lot of articles like this one run into, but not this one specifically. Tim's point is that "Google is /not/ evil. Google is doing something that may seem evil, but is in fact not. Google could do something in the future that may end up as evil, but that has yet to happen. To compare, let me show you an example of actual evil. [Enter Apple.]" Apple is used to demonstrate what, in his opinion, actual evil looks like and how that differs from what Google is doing, therefore making Google's actions not evil. The Apple example (which could be Ford or Monsanto, doesn't matter) does not serve to to excuse Google.

jmduke 15y ago

One company's transgressions does not excuse another's.

deleted 15y ago

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mikeash 15y ago

Google is a huge customer of cheap electronics, and somewhat less directly behind the production of a whole lot more due to Android. Shouldn't some of the blame for awful working conditions apply to them as well? Unless their server farms are made only from components built in factories which treat their workers universally well (do such things even exist for everything you'd need?) they're just driving the demand that causes this stuff to happen. I think that concentrating on Google, Apple, or any of these other big Western companies is getting off on the wrong foot. It makes us feel all self-righteous to do it, but doesn't actually get to the root of the problem. Ultimately, those countries which host cheap labor and allow its exploitation are responsible for offering it. Perhaps not the true in small, powerless countries which can get pushed around by large corporations, but China certainly doesn't fall into that category. If we want things to change, I think we either need to turn our eye to the Chinese government for not enacting stricter controls, or simply declare that these problems are an inevitable result of poverty and industrialization, and that the only ways out are to either return everybody to agrarian lifestyles (which is in many ways worse than working in an evil factory) or allowing these poor conditions to produce economic growth.

deleted 15y ago
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Aloisius 15y ago

There is a reason why Google's mantra is Don't Be Evil rather than Be Good. Very few companies are Good. Most are neutral. Google might have some diseased bits near its heart, but evil? No. Certainly not Good though.

sc00ter 15y ago

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/business/ieconomy-apples-ipad-and-the-human-costs-for-workers-in-china.html http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/business/ieconomy-apples-i...

sc00ter 15y ago

"You can either manufacture in comfortable, worker-friendly factories, or you can reinvent the product every year, and make it better and faster and cheaper, which requires factories that seem harsh by American standards,” said a current Apple executive. "And right now, customers care more about a new iPhone than working conditions in China." http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/business/ieconomy-apples-ipad-and-the-human-costs-for-workers-in-china.html http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/business/ieconomy-apples-i...

deleted 15y ago

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bgruber 15y ago

i'm disturbed that tim o'reilly, of all people, is shocked--shocked!--to discover that apple's products are manufactured in some not-so-great places. it does make me think that this story really needs more mainstream press.

gumbo 15y ago

Disgusting, have you listen to this http://www.thisamericanlife.org/play_full.php?play=454 http://www.thisamericanlife.org/play_full.php?play=454 I swear, nearly had tears in my eyes. I'm not proud anymore to be part of this machine (we build iphone/mac apps). We are fighting SOPA, anyone who care enough to fight this fight. Any idea of what we can do?

Volpe 15y ago
It has more dimensions than is presented by Mike Daisey. I really is heart breaking, similar to the stores of child labour in Nike factories. But on the flip side, you pull the industry out, and those 'poor workers' become just 'poor people with no income'. So the industry needs to be moved to more ethical standards. Apple do "seem" to be trying, with their releases of working conditions. But it's hard to tell how much of that is truth vs propaganda. I guess raising awareness, will slowly put pressure on companies like Apple/HTC/etc to change these things. Someone needs to think of a system that couples a profit motive to a 'people motive'...
- gumbo 15y ago
  Sure, pulling the industry is not the rigth way to go anyway. I think that the population of china don't help... more than a billion. I think that the world population is really the big issue of this century.

lukifer 15y ago

Large, publicly-traded corporations are highly incentivized towards sociopathy, with the only counteracting force being reputation and public opinion, which in practice still leaves a wide berth for bad behavior. The question shouldn't be why Apple and Google are evil, but why they aren't more evil. (Give it time.)

wes-exp 15y ago

This is the second time recently that Tim O'Reilly has publicly blasted Apple. Before this it was something about OS X. I wonder how Tim feels about iBooks? Perhaps what's really upsetting is the thought that book publishers will become obsolete?

thezoid 15y ago
I believe that iBooks also count as a publisher minus all the 'good' things a publisher would give you. So I wouldn't say that publishers are going to become obsolete, I'd just say if iBooks really does pick up we'll have 1 publisher instead of several. Doesn't sound good for authors or readers.
- wes-exp 15y ago
  Whether iBooks is a good thing or a bad thing is beside the point. All I'm trying to do is point out the possibility that O'Reilly be could biased against Apple due to his business concerns as a book publisher.
wes-exp 15y ago
I raise the point that O'Reilly may have a business conflict of interest with respect to Apple and I get downvoted? Really?

napierzaza 15y ago

From now on I am Android only. Because they're manufactured in American. Oh wait, everything is manufactured in China. And Apple is in the spotlight because they make a lot more... Wait, if Android is winning, than there is more phones, and therefore more workings making Android phones? Time O'Reilly, jackass.

gurkendoktor 15y ago

> Collecting data isn't evil. It's the currency of the future, a currency that we provide in order to buy useful services... For all I know, data is mostly used to sell other services for cash, except a little more effectively. And blaming Apple for working condititions during manufacturing is missing the forest for the trees. The whole model of short-lived consumer electronics is absolutely terrible, starting with where materials come from, ending one some landfill where children burn valuable metals out of the remains. I think we could change much more if we would absolutely oppose the notion that it is normal to throw away cellphones after two, and computers after three years.

andreiursan 15y ago

Yet another Google vs Apple. In the article he gave example the Apple factories in China and the employees in China. But what about Google's yellow badge employees in USA? http://www.andrewnormanwilson.com/portfolios/70411-workers-leaving-the-googleplex http://www.andrewnormanwilson.com/portfolios/70411-workers-l... Remember?

czhiddy 15y ago

Tim implies that Apple knowingly ordered the switch to n-hexane in "their factories" (actually Wintek's) to improve production numbers, with no regard for the safety of the workers. Evil indeed! Sorry, I'm gonna need to see some proof before I believe that version. Everything I've read points to Wintek management (who have a long history of reported labor abuses) cutting corners left and right to make more profit.

shinratdr 15y ago

Right, because Android devices are manufactured in USA standards factories where people make $10/hour. What a load of horseshit, especially since Google OWNS Motorola now (something people seem to constantly forget, including Google employees). He has no excuse, this is just a completely ridiculous and unfair comparison. I might as well just say that Google is evil because they pay very little tax, and Apple is awesome because they give Americans good development jobs. Both facts are true about both company, but why let a little thing like reality stop you from ignoring that to serve your point? The consumer electronics manufacturing and assembly business is ugly. No one company is better or worse unless they actually demonstrate that. Apple at the very least offers their reports. Where are the reports from all the assemblers that also use Foxconn, including ones involved in some high profile suicide related cases like Microsoft? Oh right, Apple is the big boys so let's throw rocks at them. I get why the guy in the TAL segment focused on Apple. We can all agree they are an attention grabber and delving into "Well, Microsoft does it too" is totally missing the point in that instance. However, if Googlers are going to start casting stones like they are sinless because they just deal in data and collecting data is A-OK, I'm afraid I'm going to have to point out what a load of crap that is.

wollw 15y ago
It's somewhat of a moot point but since you capitalized "owns" in your post I thought I should point out that the merger still hasn't happened[1][2]. [1]http://androidandme.com/2012/01/news/motorola-provides-an-update-on-proposed-merger-with-google/ http://androidandme.com/2012/01/news/motorola-provides-an-up... [2]http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/248815/acquisition_investigations_drag_on_losses_mount_at_motorola.html http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/248815/acquisi...

aneth 15y ago

I do hope Google Plus is not the future of blogging. Much better to have stylized, distributed hosting with distributed syndicated commenting than the monotonous (and Safari on iPhone crashing) Google Plus.

cromwellian 15y ago

I may get in trouble for saying this, but here goes. No good deed goes unpunished I say <sigh>. Google, a company which has been more transparent than most other companies I care to remember (and I've worked for a lot of shitty big companies). A company which gives away more open source than most other companies. A company which hires people based on "Googley" culture, which includes, a culture of employees who actually desire to be open and to act against abusing consumers and often confront management if they try to do so. A company which has stood up for the internet and protested SOPA. (A company I'm proud to work for.) After all that, people still keep putting up batshit crazy conspiracy theories about what Google plans to do ("dominate the world" and other crazy shit in comments). Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, Google management, although in the business of generating a return for shareholders, is not in the business of maximizing shareholder returns at the cost of everything else, including abusing their customers, users, and employees? If Google's sole interest was to bend over for profits and shareholders (to go evil because that's what Wall Street demands), they could have cut costs a long time ago to boost EPS, or sold your data to direct marketers. Or maybe, that tens of thousands of employees, trained into a progressive culture of openness and transparency, won't just sit idly by while some kind of uber conspiracy theory using your data takes place? Even if Larry and Sergey were false prophets, preaching sermons every week at TGIF about Googley-ness, but secretly practicing evil, they still have created an expectation in their employees of being well behaved, and that doesn't fade fast. Google's been running lots of free services that cost a hell of a lot of money to develop, maintain, and host, from search, to email, to maps, street video, youtube, etc. Not to mention hundreds of open source projects, including big ones like Android and Chrome which are staffed by very large teams. None of this costs anything for the end user, except the ability to model your preferences and target advertising. For Developers, besides open source, Google runs lots of developer conventions, and hands out free hardware costing millions like candy. When you go to Apple developer events, how much does it cost, and how much free stuff do you get? You may think that is a bad bargain, so then, don't use free web services. But there is nothing inherently evil about modeling users via their behavior. A perfect search engine would know enough about you from your behavior, to predict what your question really meant out of a set of possible ambiguous ones, and that requires a historical relationship with the person asking the question. Google's privacy policy changes really is about simplifying the legalese as well as having single-sign on for its services, and combining data to allow all of them to better serve the user. We don't want to be like Yahoo, with 500 different properties, none of them integrated very well. We want our stuff to work together more seamlessly. After all, if you are trying to organize the world's information, that means aggregation. You may cynically think this is bullshit, but us poor naive, deluded, employees actually believe that is what we're working on. So somewhere along the line, we will have to learn the evil truth that we're actually been building a weapon for world domination. I guess it would be like working on nuclear energy and being told enriching uranium was only for peaceful purposes, and not for bombs. I suppose it's possible. But do try to remember, this company has a reasonably flat management structure, that it has tens of thousands of people who care a lot about doing the right think because it is part of company culture. That counts for something, at least, a check and balance.

fauigerzigerk 15y ago

Data collection is not evil and Google's intentions may not be evil today. But storing too much personal information in one place is evil waiting to happen. Data could be stolen, subpoenaed or lost for instance. Or Google could turn evil (I'm starting to hate this word) down the road. I'd rather pay in a different currency. About the factories of Apple's suppliers: I think the way towards better health and safety conditions for workers in developing countries is via local laws and rights. You can't rely on some corporation to police this. The problem is if a government is known to be a bunch of thugs with guns whose children are the super rich owners of the country, can you rely on that government to play its part? What if that's not the case? Do you leave the country and maybe cause more poverty? I'm not sure.

Craiggybear 15y ago

Google, Apple, Microsoft. All of them are evil. Of course they are. Once you accept that, well you can choose with which one to do business. Because you're going to HAVE to sooner or later. And in ways you didn't even imagine or didn't suspect they were involved with.

VikingCoder 15y ago

"Google’s mission is to organize the world‘s information and make it universally accessible and useful." Oh my god, they're COLLECTING the information that I give to them, in order to organize it and make it universally accessible and useful?! And they're giving me options to disable collecting my information, if I don't want them to?! And if I do choose to let Google collect my information, they're giving me tools to audit the information they have on me?! OUTRAGE! Google should figure out a way to organize the world‘s information and make it universally accessible and useful, without first COLLECTING that information!!! How long have they had this mission statement, anyway? Is it like a week old, or something?