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Kenji López-Alt spent 5 months studying Chicago thin-crust pizza
- neonate 4y agohttps://archive.md/TcVQe https://archive.md/TcVQe http://web.archive.org/web/20230318154112/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/17/dining/tavern-thin-crust-pizza-chicago.html http://web.archive.org/web/20230318154112/https://www.nytime...
- koromak 4y ago+1 for Kenji
- user_named 4y ago[flagged]
- koromak 4y agoHe's not a mommy blogger, usually his stuff is worth reading. This one is a bit more of a story though, rather than an investigation.
- cainxinth 4y agoIt’s a story about Chicago’s much lesser known (and superior) style of pizza.
- ChancyChance 4y ago> (and superior) Hey hey hey! waves hands in the air wildly If it doesn't come from New Haven I ain't interested. Besides, who wants to eat a saucy saltine. I like my gluten hydrated. Seriously though, pizza science has such a weird intersection with computer-types. Why don't computer-types get all fired up about lasagna, or ice cream sundaes, or stir fry? Why only things like pizza, cast iron, and espresso?
- tayo42 4y agoI've never seen this intersection of computers and pizza before. There's stir fry enthusiasts though. Or at least wok users. You need wok hei and super hot burners, electric won't cut it etc... I've also seen some intense breakdowns of pad Thai, like it wasn't a recent invention for tourism
- necubi 4y agoIn fact, Kenji just released a book about Wok cooking!
- OJFord 4y agoHas Uncle Roger reviewed it?
- cainxinth 4y agoRice cookers, too. Lots of techie opinions about those, e.g. is induction worth the extra money.
- nemo44x 4y agoI’m in the market - any advice?
- cainxinth 4y agoI have an ancient Panasonic that’s still doing the job for me. I hear all the cool kids get a Zojirushi these days. My friend bought the super expensive induction/ pressure cooker one. He said it’s good, but he’s not sure it was worth spending $400… for rice.
- ChancyChance 4y agoWhat's with all the buttons? My rice maker is about to die, and I've had it since 2007. It has one button: cook. I looked at a Zoji and there are so many settings. Plus every type of rice has different ratios of water, which vary with quantity, so how do those settings do anything useful. I'm not too proud to admit I'm intimidated and don't want an overpriced "jack of all master of none".
- grogenaut 4y agoIs this similar to St Louis 's square beyond compare thin pizza or pretty similar? Mmm imos
- Kon-Peki 4y agoI’ve only had St Louis pizza in St Louis once, and the big difference is the cheese. I didn’t like it, but certainly a lot of people do like it or it wouldn’t survive as a style of pizza. Edit - Wikipedia says that St Louis pizza crust doesn’t have yeast in it. Chicago thin crust definitely uses yeast.
- graupel 4y agoProvel isn't worthy of using the word "cheese" to describe it. (said lovingly as someone who worked in STL and was often handed pies of "office pizza" from Imo's.)
- dole 4y agoEach Imo’s franchise is independently owned, and uses either Provel or cheaper “Zesty Pizza Loaf” depending on location. Now that I think about it, it’s like a white, grainy, Velveeta. One of the biggest problems with a cracker-thin crust is that you need to eat twice as much (or more) to get full, and it’s not any cheaper, but Imo’s does lay strips of bacon across their Deluxe and I’m a basic bitch.
- fbdab103 4y agoI am not even a native Chicagoan, though I lived there for many years, and I am personally offended anyone could have such a stance. I want each slice to be a meal.
- wsatb 4y agoMost Chicagoans I know do not eat deep dish often, nor do they even really like it. But...as someone else said, this isn't really the alternative. The crust is just plain wrong.
- jghn 4y agoYep. Of the several native chicago friends in my extended friend circle, all but one has a strong preference for the tavern square cut style
- rhino369 4y agoTavern pizza is pretty common throughout Chicagoland—most non chains specialize in it. But it’s not always cracker thin.
- pessimizer 4y agoTo be fair, an awful lot of upper-middle class esp. North Side Chicagoans aren't from Chicago. The inner suburbs are far more Chicago than a lot of neighborhoods in the city that are filled with various Midwestern emigrants (who didn't think they were good enough for NY, and didn't think they were good looking enough for California, so ended up in the second city.) The inner suburbs are filled with the descendants of white flight from the 50s-70s, who had been in the city for generations when most of its cultural touchstones were established. I'm from Chicago and I like deep dish, but these big thin slices are also good. It's obvious what the default is: when I was a kid "pizza" meant Giordano's or Eduardo's or Lou Malnati's or The Medici, or Unos or Dues, etc. Thin crust was called "thin crust." This article uses the same convention. edit: I think there was an exception for Reggio's. Maybe we thought of it as "pizza" because it's so dense and advertised as a "butter crust."
- 4y ago
- qbasic_forever 4y agoDetroit style doesn't get enough love. I feel like it's the perfect balance of pillowy thick but not filling you up. Laying stripes of sauce on top gives you a different flavor in every bite too.
- theyak 4y agoAfter trying the delicious Detroit style pizza found in Costco's frozen food section, I've been wanting to go to Detroit to try the real thing. It's my favorite frozen pizza.
- qbasic_forever 4y agoCheck out Kenji's recipe, it is really easy and forgiving to make Detroit style at home. Don't worry about getting the perfect rectangular steel pan either, a cast iron skillet works great. I use regular supermarket cheese too instead of ordering the more authentic brick cheese.
- bluedino 4y agoCurrently my favorite pizza style. If you live near a Jet's, you should be eating it. Their Stromboli's/boats are great too.
- dole 4y agoI’ll second Jet’s for Detroit-style, get the 8-corner or large deep dish. Tall, crispy edges. Little Caesar’s gets a pass on their Detroit-style, but Pizza Hut’s recent take was just disrespectful.
- tptacek 4y agoKenji's Detroit-style is my go-to home pizza: https://www.seriouseats.com/detroit-style-pizza-recipe https://www.seriouseats.com/detroit-style-pizza-recipe (It would be this Chicago recipe, but if you live in Chicago you're never more than 20 minutes out from someone delivering a better version of it than you can make).
- mhb 4y agoLooks like a pretty close facsimile with less effort could be made using a tortilla as the crust.
- tptacek 4y agoKenji agrees. https://www.seriouseats.com/extra-crispy-bar-style-tortilla-pizza-recipe https://www.seriouseats.com/extra-crispy-bar-style-tortilla-...
- stametseater 4y agoThis seems to be the way with all online recipes. SEO crap.
- joezydeco 4y agoPages about pizza, especially crap like "top 10 pizza joints in Chicago!" are a guaranteed way to generate clicks in the midwest. People will argue about that shit for days. I've had Fox's, I've had a lot of Vito and Nicks (or Nick and Vitos, they listed in the phone book both ways), when really the best pizza is whatever is local and your parents bought you all the time as a kid. Which means Pinocchio's in Niles IL before it burned down the first time.
- vidanay 4y agoIn the 80's in Arlington Heights the pizza of choice was either Dondi's or Wayne's. Sadly, Dondi's changed ownership about 15 years ago and went seriously downhill. They finally went out of business last year. I have heard that Wayne's is still in business and is still great.
- manicennui 4y agoI moved back to the NW suburbs after being in the city for 15 years, and good pizza is exceedingly hard to find out here.
- CarbonBasedUnit 4y agoTry the Kahala Koa tiki bar on Rand Rd. No, I'm not kidding.
- oidar 4y agoI love Kenji, his youtube channel and his cookbooks - I wonder if he is working on a new pizza cookbook.
- bluedino 4y agoI was always a huge fan of Serious Eats, but Kenji's head-mounted camera setup makes most of his videos unwatchable for me.
- detourdog 4y agoYes, I find the camera work unwatchable. He should use a steady cam. I always search the serious eats website first when looking for a recipe.
- peeters 4y agoDang, that's a bummer to hear! Is it a motion sickness thing? I absolutely love his POV videos and find them so much more watchable than studio setups, partially just because of the intimacy and casualness of them, but also because they're more true to the cooking process.
- vxNsr 4y agoI’m not the OP but yea for me it’s motion sickness. I would t mind if he did a two camera set up, one stationary and had that on an alt channel, I wouldn’t need to see everything, just hear it and if I really needed to I could check out that scene on the POV video. But those POV shots give me serious motion sickness.
- detourdog 4y agoYes, motion sickness. Huge bummer I have tried many times since seriouseats is the best food website since chowhound in my opinion.
- ttepasse 4y ago
- davidu 4y agoAnywhere to get this kind of pie in Manhattan? (also, Kenji is great!)
- chills 4y agoEmmett's
- shadowofneptune 4y agoAnyone who hasn't actually lived in the Great Lakes area might be confused by the title. As the article states: "I'm talking thinner-than-a-saltine thin, with a shatteringly crisp crackle and just enough structure to hold its own weight against a heavily seasoned sauce and a caramelized layer of mozzarella. It’s probably topped with hand-torn nubs of sausage, maybe a sprinkle of hot giardiniera. Forget the puffy, handlebarlike crust of a New York pie: Thin crust has sauce and cheese all the way to the edge — an edge that comes out extra crisp with a frizzle of nearly blackened cheese overhanging it." It's a great side to beer, and a real treat I like to point out to visitors.
- throw0101b 4y agoIf you want to explore food science, it's hard to go wrong with the OG author, Harold McGee: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_McGee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_McGee * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Food_and_Cooking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Food_and_Cooking The fortieth anniversary of his On Food is coming up in 2024.
- AlbertCory 4y agoI actually talked to Harold a couple times when he came to Google. He is a very, very nice person; very down-to-earth.
- MegaDeKay 4y agoCan't argue that Harold is the OG. It would be nice if he'd release a new edition of On Food and Cooking though. But as I understand it, it still holds up really well after all this time. Alton Brown is certainly another name I'd add to the mix. Good Eats was brilliant, and his I'm Only Here For The Food / More Food books are really good.
- wooly_bully 4y agoI just am about halfway thru. Absolutely stands up, doesnt even feel dated almost 20 years after the revised edition.
- duped 4y agoDitch the giardiniera and put the sausage under the cheese instead of on top, and add a splash of red wine to the sauce and you'd have something more in common in the local pizza spots. Also can't forget the corn meal to keep the crust from sticking to the pan, which is just a part of the experience when you eat it. Personally the crust looks wrong. It's not a saltine, it's slightly thicker than that. There are pizza places that do that style, but try ordering the pizza from local Italian places and pizza spots that aren't "famous" (or for lack of a better way of saying it - trying too hard). That ultra crispy style is not the norm.
- codemac 4y agoYes! Thank you. Banana peppers are about as giardiniera as it gets most places. Though I will debate you on the sausage location.
- tptacek 4y ago"Ultra-crispy" is definitely the style at Fox's, on the southwest side, which I grew up with. And Fox's isn't famous; it's just neighborhood Chicago pizza. Giardiniera is definitely a modern innovation, though; growing up, I'd be surprised to see anything other than green peppers on a pizza.
- AustinBGibbons 4y agoNo pizza is as good as my memories of Fox’s - sausage and peppers under the cheese, herbaceous profile sliced into borderline bite size squares that you can eat a dozen of
- kevinmchugh 4y agoHey Austin, long time no see!
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- chitowneats 4y ago
- codemac 4y agoIt upsets me this is called "Chicago" when clearly it came from further east - these "working class pizza taverns" being common across Indiana, Ohio, and PA as well. There are plenty of examples of these types of "no I started thin crust and square cut" pizza tavern places everywhere. And even worse is that I am no historian and I'm probably wrong. But my direct experience contradicts a lot of the Chicago-washing of this article. For example Donato's in Columbus obviously made this style popular across the country far more than Chicago, and they weren't inspired by Vito & Nick's or something. I bet someone right now is writing an article about how the pizza sandwich served at crappy pizza/bar places in the midwest was invented in Chicago too - even though it was probably independently invented in many locations.
- jghn 4y agoThere are stylistic differences on these tavern thin crust styles across the upper midwest region. When I hear "chicago thin crust" I don't expect it to be 1:1 equivalent w/ columbus style pizza, st louis style pizza, etc. I assume Kenji knows this as well, as for instance I know he's talked about st louis style in the past. Granted the non-paywall link hasn't loaded for me yet, so for all I know he claims the entire broad-country style was invented in Chicago. In which case, yes I agree with you.
- isaacsanders 4y agoThey’re different. Columbus pizzas aren’t as dry in the crusts. Chicago tavern cut crusty edges crumble in one’s mouth. I prefer Columbus’ style, and I think it would do well in Chicago.
- BuckRogers 4y agoWhen I first moved Chicago, I found it weird to run into natives that considered tavern style pizza as also Chicago’s style. In Iowa we just generally consider that the Midwest style pizza but that’s definitely the style preferred by locals for many decades. Chicago is the Big Apple of the Midwest so I guess they think everything originated from there. But I’m pretty sure tavern style either came from back east, or where I’m from along the Mississippi River.
- 4y ago
- AlbertCory 4y agoNative Chicagoan here. Not totally a snob, but getting there. I didn't usually encounter really crispy crust growing up, but I'm not saying it's wrong. He does a lot of things here I've never tried, but now I'm going to. I had an Ooni, and after 5 or 6 meh attempts, I sold it. I also exited the r/ooni subreddit. I'm also out of love with the Neapolitan style baked at 700F+. Come at me. I think a pizza steel preheated in a kitchen oven at 500F gives you a perfectly good pizza, and the fact that you can slide out the oven rack and use gravity to launch the pizza off the peel makes it a total win. (On r/ooni, they advise turning the heat down or off when you actually launch. I'm going to try blowtorching my pizza steel to 700F, just to simulate this process. Stay tuned.) On the intersection with computers: the early Apple people used to go for lunch at Cicero's Pizza. It's still around and Steve Wozniak still goes there.
- antihero 4y agoThe best way to make pizza better is to drink more. I’ve eaten some fantastic artisan sourdough wonders here in London but nothing compares to being wasted as fuck and finding the one place that’s open at some ungodly hour after a heavy night of eating fuck all and getting your teeth into some greasy monster made of the worst possible ingredients.
- chitowneats 4y agoWell put. That being said, the Chicago version is still better. NYC pizza is a bad joke. As long as you're only paying $1 it's not that bad for the price. That price point and the places that offered it are going extinct unfortunately. The "slice" is dead. Imagine having to fold your "pizza" because it's just a nasty mess of sauce and cheese.
- kenjilopezalt 4y agoIt’s ironic because those $1 slice places that popped up in the mid 2000s are what actually destroyed decent NY slices which couldn’t compete because transplants and students would rather pay $1 for garbage than $1.50-$2.50 for a true classic NY slice. Very few of them remain now. Instead there’s this divide with crappy $1 joints (that are now a little more expensive) and good $4-5 slice joints that had to differentiate themselves. The workingman’s NY slice might not have long to live. All that said, it sounds like maybe you’ve not had good NY pizza the way you’re describing it. The sauce and cheese should not be messy, it should be minimal. The fold is so you can walk down the street while eating it in one hand.
- AndreasHae 4y agoReminds me of Flammkuchen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flammekueche https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flammekueche
- indigodaddy 4y agoOne bite everybody knows the rules
- 331c8c71 4y agoHow does Chicago thin-crust pizza compare to restaraunt-made pizza found in Italy and (to certain extent) elsewhere in Europe? The photos in the article look just like normal pizza to me (maybe the topping looks a bit drier than usual). EDIT: I don't see mozzarella on the photos. Not having it is not uncommon, for instance in France, but it's a must in an Italian restaraunt except for pizzas that don't have mozzarella by design e.g. marinara.
- nemo44x 4y agoI’d say the biggest difference is there’s no loyalty to Italian styles. It’s very much made in a way with local ingredients that make sense to the people who make it. Bread flour instead of 00. Different crusts and shapes. Different cheese (dry instead of fresh mozzarella. Cow instead of Buffalo. Alternative cheeses like Wisconsin Brick cheese in Detroit style) and sauces. I love a great Neapolitan or Roman style too. But I’m grateful for the distinct regional styles here and arguing about what’s better rather than what’s more authentic.
- 6177c40f 4y agoAs a midwest native, I've got to say that this is my favorite kind of pizza. And honestly, there's not really any rules as to how exactly it's made or what goes on it. Get the crust thin and crisp, and put on it whatever toppings make you happy. The key is that it's meant to be delicious, not fit a standard mold.
- weaksauce 4y agoI mean it's basically akin to nachos at this point and who doesn't love loaded nachos?
- 2f0ja 4y agodoes anyone have a link to the actual recipe? I subscribe to nyt but not to the food section
- onos 4y agoI, for one, would like to state that I’m not impressed by the five month study period.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- mrmincent 4y agoAs an Aussie I find the American pizza scene so interesting - so many regional variations, I’d never heard of this thin style crust pizza until I saw Kenji posting on his Insta about it a while back. Looking forward to making it sometime.
- nemo44x 4y agoI think it has become a bit line brew where people thought American versions were bad until they started to dig into it more and the craft scene started to take off. Similar with pizza. You have regional styles that no one really wrote about but in more modern times people are looking under more rocks. Locals always loved it hence why d sad one of these joints have been open so long. And a craft scene around those styles grows from it. In short the upper middle class got tired ordering Pizza Hut and has co-opted the working class styles (New Haven, Detroit, tavern style, etc).
- 0xB31B1B 4y agoAs someone who grew up in the upper midwest, we ate tavern pizza at family dinners. Dominoes was the pizza for school events. Back then it wasn't really "craft pizza". What Kenji is doing definitely elevates the style with better ingredients and in general more effort, but its the same thing.
- adamc 4y agoI'm from the Chicago area. Thin crust? He's a heretic.
- bsder 4y agoHardly. I'll put the thin crust of Home Run Inn up against any Chicago deep dish soup any day ... :) I'm being intentionally provocative, but people really underestimate how many things need to work together to get GOOD pizza, even if you get the ingredients right--that's why I love articles like this from J. Kenji López-Alt.
- kenjilopezalt 4y agoHome Run Inn literally invented the style, FYI.
- adamc 4y agoI'm older, and before they were big I think I had moved out of the area.
- tptacek 4y agoI grew up in Beverly and didn't have deep dish pizza once until I moved out of my parents house. The style of pizza Kenji is writing about here is "Chicago pizza" for me.
- IAmGraydon 4y agoKenji is awesome. I learned much of what I know about cooking from his site (Serious Eats).
- aarondia 4y ago+1. Recently tried some recipes from his cookbook The Wok. +=1
- wirthjason 4y agoI love cooking but often it can be a project. When I’m too lazy or don’t want to cook (like during a Bears game) I don’t mind a frozen pizza. HomeRun Inn makes a very good thin crust. When cooked in a toaster over air fryer it gets very crispy. Topped with giardineria and cut into squares it’s a great snack. https://share.icloud.com/photos/05ePk6RokvS1kX_UkNxvP5m6A https://share.icloud.com/photos/05ePk6RokvS1kX_UkNxvP5m6A
- dangerboysteve 4y agoThe Pizza Show: From Deep Dish to Thin Crust https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0xDAUXPc8c&list=PLnPDn1Lb79JG7zKvGrmBMKDp4hZO8PfYU&index=3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0xDAUXPc8c&list=PLnPDn1Lb79...
- benced 4y agoBesides tasting good, the main service this pizza performs is getting New Yorkers who whine about “it’s not pizza” w/r to deep dish to shut up.
- DethNinja 4y agoWhy this recipe doesn’t mention 00 Flour. You can’t just make a pizza dough with normal flour, I feel like many people will be disappointed without this minor detail.
- modriano 4y agoIt seems so odd to me that I can't ever find 00 flour in any of the grocery stores around me (in Chicago). Every neopolitan pizza recipe I read stresses use of 00 flour, but I have to buy it from King Arthur's site. Do people not know how easy it is to make pizza at home?
- kenjilopezalt 4y ago00 pizza flour is great for Neapolitan pizza baked at very high temps. At lower temps it doesn’t brown or char very well because it’s unmalted. It’s not a good choice for most American pizza styles.
- randomcarbloke 4y agoanyone ever made a Kenji pizza? I've made a handful...from when he originally repurposed the Jim Lahey recipe and then after when he abandoned that, I genuinely don't understand his popularity, somehow he has everyone convinced he is worth listening to.
- smni 4y agoYes, I use his recipe for Detroit style pizza quite regularly and it’s great! His in-depth articles and the rationale behind what he tests and tries really help explain the process for home cooks. Excited to try this new tavern style pizza recipe.
- randomcarbloke 4y agoif you can stump the cash Modernist Pizza will change your life.