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Midjourney v5 can do hands
- prox 4y agoSD can as well with multi controlnet.
- GaggiX 4y agoI have no doubt that someone could generate a similar result with SD, but it would require a lot of effort, to control hands with SD using controlnet one usually uses the depth model, if one wants to create an image similar to the one generated by Midjourney v5 one would have to place hundreds of hands.
- smrtinsert 4y agoIf MJ is using AI then some community solution should soon appear for SD.
- nickthegreek 4y agoWith controlNET you actually get to chose your hand pose though and not just hope for it to be the way you want in Midjourney,
- CuriouslyC 4y agoDon't use depth for hands. There is an openpose model that can use hand information.
- GaggiX 4y agoCan you link me the controlnet model trained also on hand openpose?
- CuriouslyC 4y agoLink and discussion at https://www.reddit.com/r/StableDiffusion/comments/1144vyb/controlnet_openpose_hand/ https://www.reddit.com/r/StableDiffusion/comments/1144vyb/co...
- sva_ 4y agoUmm, have you actually zoomed in? Lots of extra or missing fingers, fingers melting into other arms, etc
- coldtea 4y agoStill several times better than before...
- bamboozled 4y agoLooking forward to mj six! Giving the doubters the finger edition
- c-linkage 4y agoI see you have six fingers on your right hand. Someone was looking for you.
- dylan604 4y agoA person with six fingers? That's inconceivable! How does one give the middle finger with six fingers?
- soylentcola 4y agoTwice as well as someone with five? I guess you could do some sort of hybrid British/American gesture with two middle fingers.
- mrkstu 4y agoIt’s perfect for Aussie-Americans- they can give the forks and TWO middle fingers simultaneously!
- tobr 4y agoAn example showing hands in basically the easiest, “flattest” pose you can get, still failing.
- golergka 4y ago[flagged]
- coldtea 4y ago>from being handled I see what you did here
- Kaijo 4y agoCase in point, from six days ago: "The uncanny failures of A.I.-generated hands" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35108726 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35108726
- fumblebee 4y agoAs Károly Zsolnai-Fehér of Two Minute Papers[1] fame consistently likes to point out (paraphrased): > "Don't look at the current state, just imagine this 2 papers down the line". [1] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbfYPyITQ-7l4upoX8nvctg https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbfYPyITQ-7l4upoX8nvctg
- chii 4y agoIt has been already, for quite a while now (at least a month or so). have a look at various twitter accounts that post AI images: e.g. https://twitter.com/PLAawesome/media https://twitter.com/PLAawesome/media these have had progressively better and better hands over time. You can clearly see that they've been using various model merges (this Lora merging techniques like https://github.com/cloneofsimo/lora https://github.com/cloneofsimo/lora) to get two different models to combine and get the best of both. Many have done better hands and contributed it out. NSFW, but this is one i found that has very realistic hands now: https://civitai.com/models/2661 https://civitai.com/models/2661 It is faster than i can keep up. This is open source collaboration at heart. I am very glad that Stable Diffusion was released publicly. Now if only openAI would do the same with their GPT models.
- redox99 4y agoDid "AI critics" actually claim hands wouldn't be fixed soon, or is this just a strawman?
- fenomas 4y agoCan Midjourney be used other than via discord bots yet?
- GaggiX 4y agoUnfortunately no (reason why they are the biggest server on Discord with 13mln users)
- sho_hn 4y agoForget about creating AGI -- the most amazing and unpredictable thing about the success of Midjourney is its success despite having the user interface of a 1998 DALnet xdcc warez channel.
- danuker 4y agoComputers from 1998 couldn't run the monstrous amount of JS and/or surveillance that is Discord with any sort of performance. https://stallman.org/discord.html https://stallman.org/discord.html In fact, it looks like modern ones can't either: https://old.reddit.com/r/discordapp/ https://old.reddit.com/r/discordapp/
- ridgered4 4y agoIt is really frustrating to me that discord seems to have taken over half of the use cases that forums used to fill. Reddit stole most of the other half, but every time I look into discord I cannot understand the popularity and people's willingness to push past all of the privacy and access friction it introduces.
- ryder9 4y agowhat's so hard to understand about why people are attracted to social media. we're social creatures
- fenomas 4y ago
- himinlomax 4y agoBut can it do Xi Jinping? (Last I heard they were censoring it for dubious reasons)
- Mizoguchi 4y agoMy rough understanding is that it is not a problem affecting Midjourney alone but pretty much all other engines as well and that it is not related to drawing hands per se but figuring out hands in the context of a human body. In other words, drawing an individual hand is not a problem, drawing a hand attached to a body could be challenging depending on the scene and drawing multiple human bodies with hands is virtually impossible to get right in one pass.
- GaggiX 4y agoYes, the hands were not the only problem, perhaps the most obvious, the teeth were usually pretty bad too, they too have improved largely with Midjourney v5, I suggest going to the Midjourney subreddit to see the different results.
- pwinnski 4y agoIt's easy to prompt for people with closed mouths and hands not visible, but with MidJourney at least, I would consistently get what I can only describe as "stuff on their face" with almost every prompt involving a human. Less often with white people, but even then pretty often. I mean, I just typed "/imagine asian warrior nun --v 4" into Discord, thinking of Beatrice from the recent Netflix series, and three of the four results show what I'm talking about: https://i.imgur.com/499QCn6.png https://i.imgur.com/499QCn6.png
- pwinnski 4y agoI tried the same prompt but with "--v 5" instead, and got this: https://i.imgur.com/eElOkjU.png https://i.imgur.com/eElOkjU.png I only see "stuff on the face" in the third image, which I guess is an improvement. I'm not sure I'd call hands "fixed" based on this image alone, but they're better.
- PartiallyTyped 4y agoSimilar issue exists for all networks that involve translation, despite the task, so classifiers, though I don’t know whether it has been resolved. With classifiers the issue is that if you place sufficient objects in space that co-occur the model will believe that it is a class with said objects, eg a face, but the problem is the relative positioning of them plus all angles of rotation. I think geometric deep learning has a solution for the rotation ia rotation invariant models, but I haven’t gone through that book yet.
- bryanrasmussen 4y agook but can it do hands, hands, hands in my hands, hands, hands? Because I bet that's difficult.
- TekMol 4y agoIs there a reason Midjourney does not have an API?
- aenvoker 4y agoDavid Holz has said they don’t want to be in the API business. Their goal is to bring creative power to individuals. Squeezing margin out of API calls is more about negotiating with corporations.
- throwaway_ab 4y agoThere is the api that the website uses to talk to their server. Of course automating image generation via any means (including the private api) goes against tos for good reason, I have never misused the api to generate images and have no plans to. However I do use the api to download all my images and their metadata including prompts. Using the API I sync every image grid + 'upscaled' I have ever generated, generate a json file with all metadata including the full prompt and then use that to build my local archive.
- Method-X 4y agoWhy are these models so bad at hands?
- shawabawa3 4y agofor what it's worth, humans are also in general terrible at drawing hands - i think it's just a difficult problem
- roselan 4y agoAnother reason I saw was that models were trained on 512x512 "portrait" images including very few hands. Added to the inherent complexity of hands, this throw off their generation.
- cma 4y agoHumans seem terrible at it in very different ways, and definitely don't get as good at other parts before getting good at hands.
- ye-olde-sysrq 4y agoI'm a layman but the gist afaict is: These models don't understand relationships between objects in a scene, especially between distant objects. So they can't do hands for the same reason they can't get legs on a table right. They know roughly what a table and a table leg look like, but they don't understand that there needs to be 3-4 of them at least, and they need to be spaced so that the table sits level, and the perspective they should have as a result. So, I've seen tables where it kind of gets it right that the legs are in the corners but then as the table legs go down, the front ones are mysteriously behind something that ought to be under the table. And sometimes it kind of loses track of a table leg or two - they melt into the background. Very similar problem with hands. They need a very specific orientation and shape and the fingers all need to consistently point in the right direction, and typically the same direction (except for when they don't like with a pointed finger, etc). Curious as to how these models handle it so much better than prior generations. Is it something novel, or a specific hand-based fix they put it, or is it just "we made the model bigger"?
- taneq 4y ago"Ah, but can it accurately capture the depths and intricacies of a human soul?" "Yep." "Yeah but a specific Appalachian human soul at around four o'clock in the afternoon on a day in mid-autumn when it looked like it would rain but then it didn't?" "Also yep." "Yeah but specifically at 3:56pm and the human in question is standing on loam and holding a book in their left hand and listening to Music For The Royal Fireworks by Handel?" "Uhhh..." "See, told you AI is useless."
- cool_dude85 4y agoHow about this conversation: "Midjourney v5 can do hands" "Did you look at the hands it did? There are a bunch of mis-shapen blobs, hands with extra fingers, two thumbs on either side, etc." "Sure, but there are also some accurate hands, so it can do hands."
- sebzim4500 4y agoDoes being able to do something mean you can do it perfectly 100% of the time? I'm not sure who was supposed to be unreasonable in your imaginary conversation.
- taneq 4y ago"Hey check it out, this new architecture can sometimes solve X" "HAH! Here is a counterexample where X is not solved, so it can NOT!"
- cool_dude85 4y agoIf I say I can do something, especially when I say I'm "waving at the haters", what I usually mean is that I can consistently do that thing. If I say "here's a self-driving car!" and show you a video of a car moving straight down a street and stopping at a light, would you agree that I have a self-driving car? After all, it drove itself down the street.
- ridgered4 4y ago
- nashashmi 4y agoBesides the known problem of multiple and missing fingers, it is also missing the golden ratio phi for proportions between fingers and palms. We are almost there I guess. Just need to add the concepts of known proportions to image construction.
- CuriouslyC 4y agoPeople in the stable diffusion community have solved this problem using another neural network (ControlNet) to guide stable diffusion output using OpenPose information.
- passwordoops 4y agoSo when is someone going to incorporate this in a future dystopian sci Fi?... "The Turing test never works because the cyons speak, think and act just like us... But the hands, son... The hands are always... off. No one knows why, but it's from the earliest days, even before they learned how to manufacture the cyons in our image. Those damn generative AIs were never able to get them right, even when they were just pictures and they probably never will. No one knows why, but we don't need to know the why. It's still the only way we can tell them apart, son. Check the hands. The hands."
- Raicuparta 4y agoThis is a thing in the original Westworld movie (1973). They couldn't get the hands right.
- passwordoops 4y agoNow THAT is interesting. I guess it could also be folded into the plot of we go Terminator and incorporate time travel. "We went back and tried to warn them even before computers were widespread... All they did was remake the media and left out the clues"
- ethbr0 4y agoMy take was that was always essence of the "dogs smell Terminators" plot element. Skynet could make Terminators that looked and acted human, but didn't put the effort into making them smell human. Unlike us, a dog's sensory world is more like 50% smell and 20% vision. Ergo, Terminators seem "obviously wrong" under even a cursory examination to them.
- estebank 4y agoNow that's an interesting thought: terminators were in the "smell uncanny valley" for dogs. It makes sense, I just hadn't thought of it in those specific terms.
- 4y ago
- pyaamb 4y agothe fact that our fingers also look weird in our dreams is just a coincidence right?
- Raicuparta 4y agoI've never noticed that. I do have a problem rendering mirrors though.
- nzach 4y agoI've had some dreams where everything except my hands were crystal clear. Maybe there is something fundamentally difficult about representing hands ? But I think the more probable explanation is that I'm just trying to find a correlation where none exists.
- dagmx 4y agoHands are highly structural while also being not completely planar. That’s some of the hardest geometry for a mind to envisage without some kind of construction process. When you’re imagining or dreaming, you don’t have a construction process to make them look good.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- superdisk 4y agoOne of the ways they say to recognize you're dreaming is to count your fingers and see if you have more/less than five.
- Uehreka 4y agoHas anyone here ever tried drawing hands? As a teenager I took a drawing class (mostly so I could learn to draw Pokemon) and I remember doing a study on hands at one point based on some characters from Dragon Ball Z. And man, it was the hardest thing it that class. With faces, once you get a face “right”, you can make small adjustments to make the mouth/eyes open/close, but hands… if your character makes any sort of gesture BOOM now you’re drawing a completely different shape. Between the number of joints, their range of possible rotations, and the angles they can be seen from, hands are probably the most complicated parts of our bodies that are visible from the outside. It’s completely unsurprising to me that these networks have trouble encoding them.
- fwlr 4y ago“Has anyone here ever tried drawing hands?” It’s not for naught that there’s a common meme around AI hands https://imgur.io/tf43ecd?r https://imgur.io/tf43ecd?r (Alt text: Human asks robot “can an AI draw hands?”, robot counters “can you?”.) I remember during the original AI art arguments, an artist friend semi-jokingly remarked to me that AI can’t draw hands because there aren’t enough examples in the training set, because artists go to great lengths to choose poses that hide the hands since they can’t draw hands either.
- ethbr0 4y agoI heard a great quip about the way people misreason about AI capabilities. Announcement: "AI can play chess!" Public: "People can play chess. And AI can play chess. People can also X. Therefore AI can also X." ... Ignoring the underlying nature of the chess problem and how it was different than other problems' structures. Hands are the same. You can image-bash together faces from examples and get something mostly-right simply through pattern copying. You cannot do the same with hands, because rendering them plausibly requires at least intuition and approximation of inverse kinematics -- something the recent set of image generative AI didn't include. Which isn't to say it can't, simply that the "hands problem" is unlike "the face problem."
- ElFitz 4y ago
- Awelton 4y agoIt's a step in the right direction, but it still seems to have a problem understanding that the vast majority of hands have 5 fingers.
- wincy 4y agoI’ve been making a lot of stuff for my D&D buddies using Stable Diffusion. With hands, I basically brute force it. Using an A100 40GB on Colab I can generate ~28 or so (depending on the size of the prompt, Automatic1111 allows for prompts above the 75 token limit at the expense or more vRAM per image) batches in about a minute, filter those and look at the one with the best hands, then feed it back in using inpainting (so regenerating just that small space, not the whole image) and eventually get one set of good hands and 100 sets of bad hands. If you’ve got a mysterious sixth finger you just inpaint it off and add latent noise under the inpaint instead of the original picture (just a checkbox in the ui) and set your denoising to 0.80+ and it’ll replace the finger with the background pretty consistently.
- soylentcola 4y agoYeah, I fiddle with it locally and img2img/inpaint is very helpful with these kinds of touchups. Currently playing with LoRA training to put my friends into pictures, but I haven't figured it out well enough to get it working with inpainting - Still easier to Photoshop their face in and use inpaint to merge everything together.
- bobbyi 4y agoDid they put in work specifically to improve hands and other failure cases? Or is this purely a side effect of a generally bigger/ better model?
- pwinnski 4y agoLet's try "chinese girl making heart with fingers --v 5", a prompt I had used before under v4. Result: https://i.imgur.com/jPgBqsX.png https://i.imgur.com/jPgBqsX.png In image 1, the subject appears to be missing a digit on each hand. In image 2, the missing digits issue expands, combined with what appears to be a merging of the thumbs. Image 3 introduces a supernumerary digit on each hand, and has extra "parts" disappear into and out of other fingers. Image 4... isn't right in a number of ways, but still seems to have fewer than the expected number of digits. I don't think these results are any better than the v4 model was, but decide for yourself. This is what I got with the same prompt using -v 4 on March 1. https://i.imgur.com/hQA2K7m.png https://i.imgur.com/hQA2K7m.png I ended up just taking a photo of my daughter and blurring the background.
- abraxas 4y agoV5 is vastly better. V4 mutations are outright creepy.
- pwinnski 4y agoNeither of them produced a result I could use. One or the other might be more aesthetically pleasing to you depending on what you focus on, but both are very badly broken in fundamental ways. If anything, I'd say v5 is more confident about its wrongness. It is as if humans have always had four fingers, how could you possible think otherwise? It that sense it seems more like the text-based LLMs: confidently incorrect.
- spaceman_2020 4y agoV5 looks like photos with filters on. V4 looks like a painting.
- muyuu 4y agothey're both pretty flawed but v5 is better it still doesn't seem to respect anatomy when it comes to hands particularly, perhaps an artefact of not paying attention to hard constraints that are not visually self-evident
- bqmjjx0kac 4y ago
- lsy 4y agoEven the hands in this tweet's image are not correct. There are a bunch with 4 digits, two thumbs, 6 fingers, fingers splayed in anatomically improbable directions. Not to mention there are probably two hundred and fifty hands in this photo (not the very explicit "one hundred" mentioned in the tweet). What is with these types of AI booster tweets? Nobody bothers to even check if it shows what they're implying it shows?
- antisthenes 4y ago> What is with these types of AI booster tweets? Nobody bothers to even check if it shows what they're implying it shows? It's Twitter. The only thing matters is tweeting, not some fact-checking nonsense. We can leave those tedious tasks to GPT-4.
- boredemployee 4y ago>> There are a bunch with 4 digits, two thumbs, 6 fingers, fingers splayed in anatomically improbable directions. Diversity and inclusion.
- hombre_fatal 4y ago> Nobody bothers to even check if it shows what they're implying it shows Or the vast majority of the hands are fine and everyone understands that it's a big upgrade except for some "well ackshully it's not perfect" HNers. I had to zoom in and go hand to hand to find some outliers.
- Jensson 4y agoIt did do hands correctly before, not always but sometimes. So I'd expect "can do hands" meant it no longer made those mistakes or why say that? But they didn't even manage to make a picture without mistakes, so to me as a naive outsider I don't see what the announcement is. If they said "is much better at hands" it would be much clearer to me what happened and nobody would complain, that looks pretty ok for the most part, but saying "it can do hands" based on those pictures doesn't seem right.
- anonzzzies 4y agoSo lovely; how we will recognise the fake; show us hands. Even good hands are not good.
- jtode 4y agoI read about a limitation, and then within a week I read that the limitation has been vanquished. Who hit fast forward, and how did they do it?
- cgearhart 4y agoI actually find this pattern of “Tweet driven development” discouraging. Seems like the teams are spot fixing issues as they’re identified without understanding or addressing the root cause. It means that the same problem still exists somewhere else in the model’s latent space, we just don’t know about it yet. This is fine for AI art generation, but it will break at scale as more and more folks try to rely on generative models as critical components of larger systems.
- throwaway_ab 4y agoHands are some of the hardest forms for humans to draw, it is no surprise these models struggle with hands too. In a way, a hand contains more features than perhaps the entire human body from a forms/intersection perspective. I think an entire model needs to be built to focus on just hands and then combined into a more general model, perhaps that will be the path forward?
- NautilusWave 4y agoMidjourney's sonic hedgehog needs more calibration.
- dyno12345 4y agoI don't get how everyone was saying the hands looked weird before. I think it just had something to do with the camera technology back then, and it must be training on that. It looks that way in all of my old childhood photos.
- cptaj 4y agoI feel like everyone is collectively pranking me with these generative AIs. Everyone posts wonderful images and then every single time I try to get the damn things (all of them) to draw something for me, the results are absolute garbage.
- kadoban 4y agoYou're just not seeing the hours they spent learning prompt engineering and/or the random results they picked through to get the good one(s).
- pmoriarty 4y agoAs someone who's generated many thousands of images on Midjourney, I agree. People think they can waltz in and immediately get great results from using AI's to generate images... and they can, if they're lucky or if they copy somebody else's prompt. It's a lot harder to do so consistently, or if you want your images to look both good and original, and not like mere copies of what everyone else is doing.
- kadoban 4y agoYeah I thought my copy of stable diffusion was broken at first because all my results were awful. Then I copied someone's prompt and got really great ones. I suspect eventually there will be tools you can just fire up with no knowledge, but all of them I've seen so far still do require a bit of expertise and time.
- diabolo96 4y agoYou can : 1.ask chatgpt to generate a prompt of what you want by giving it a few exemples from a random SD prompt sharing website.(this alone gave me stunning results) 2.(optional) Use Controlnet for the pose you want,from the posture of the body down to each finger individually. 2.5 use multi Controlnet for multiple characters. 3. correct any errors with img2img. 4. Enjoy It takes 10 to 20 minutes (mostly in getting a good pose) but the results are always good and you can later reuse the pose again.
- mysterydip 4y agoCan't count, though. That's way more than 100 hands
- braingenious 4y agohttps://twitter.com/parkermolloy/status/1636359710025629698 https://twitter.com/parkermolloy/status/1636359710025629698
- dimaor 4y agooff topic, but the title reminds me of "meta VR now has legs!". :)
- hospitalJail 4y agoBold claim, and its false.
- mightytravels 4y agoIs there a public’s demo for Midjourney like there are for StableDiffusion?
- corysama 4y agoThere’s a very limited free trial. Like a few dozen images.
- nothrowaways 4y agoIs it actually 100?
- anonyfox 4y agoI‘d like to use midjourney via an API from my scripts, but the only way of using it right now seems to be via discord, or did I miss something? Seems like Dall-E is what I have to use for now :/
- jm547ster 4y agoYes still discord only
- ucru 4y agowow, lol.... good luck :D
- ucru 4y agodamn
- podunkPDX 4y agoTell me when meta can do legs. #tooSoon
- nuc1e0n 4y agoWow. The majority of the hands in that picture are malformed. Are the midjourney people blind from looking at too many malformed hands?