23 ms·

Hardware microphone disconnect (2021)

720 points by janniks 4y ago

teeok2023 4y ago
Thanks you
m3kw9 4y ago
When will Europe say they can do this?
janniks 4y ago
I was recently trying to figure out whether the microphone is usable when using my notebook in clamshell-mode. Turns out Apple added a privacy/safety feature to all Apple silicon-based Mac notebooks and Intel-based Mac notebooks with the Apple T2 Security Chip. It will hardware disconnect the microphone when the lid is closed, based on the lid sensors. Pretty cool safety feature!! Even though I'm sad I can't use my mic in clamshell mode
- fsflover 4y ago
  The correct solution would be to have a hardware kill switch for the microphone (and camera). This is exactly what Purism laptops offer.
  - sdfhbdf 4y ago
    Probably not in Apple’s “it just works” design philosophy. Also that’s another moving piece that can break.
    - JamesSwift 4y ago
      I mean... it doesnt seem uncommon to have people dock a closed laptop so I would argue it doesnt "just work".
      - dymk 4y ago
        How would a microphone work with the lid closed anyways? It’d be muffled. If you’re docking your laptop closed, you’ve got an external webcam / mic if you need those inputs.
        vbezhenar 4y ago
        Why would I need to get mic if I have it in laptop? It makes very little sense to me.
        dymk 4y ago
        So then you dock it with the lid open, in which case the mic and camera work fine and aren’t muffled…
        OmarAssadi 4y ago
        For the same reason you might have other external peripherals. A laptop, realistically, can only fit something so decent inside of it. The 2020+ MacBooks do have surprisingly OK internal mics, but that's about all they are: OK. Maybe I'm just an extra-big baby about it all. But what I find a little annoying with the COVID-era of work-from-home and distance learning is how few people seem to care about audio. Even as a teenager on TeamSpeak, rather than getting a more expensive graphics card or whatever, I spent my money on an SM7B. Now it is more important than ever. Maybe this isn't reasonable, but I feel like if not for yourself, to prevent "sorry, can you repeat that?" moments, you kind of owe it to the people who have to listen to you. Like as an autistic person, hearing a dozen people's overlapping background static, tinny compressed audio, etc, it really, truly slowly drives me nuts. I can't deal with that level of auditory sensory stuff all day. If someone has a bad microphone, I want out of the call ASAP. A Shure SM58 will last you a lifetime, fit on your desk, cost <$100, and no one will ever complain about sound again.
        dividedbyzero 4y ago
        People don't know how bad they sound. It's as simple as that I think, there is no easy monitor functionality in Teams and friends like the preview image for camera, so there is no urgency.
  - dymk 4y ago
    This is a hardware kill switch, in the form of a (set of) transistors
    - fsflover 4y ago
      Can it be reprogrammed?
      - jeffbee 4y ago
        No. It is bare logic.
        fsflover 4y ago
        Interesting. Note however that my comment was a reply to "I can't use my mic in clamshell mode". A normal kill switch would solve this.
  - earlyam 4y ago
    A cool feature on laptops would be a jumper you could physically disconnect, and a tiny window (on say, the bottom of the laptop) to verify it hasn't been reconnected.
    - kube-system 4y ago
      If you need a window on the case of your laptop to verify that your hardware hasn't been tampered with, you've got bigger problems.
      - meltyness 4y ago
        You're against transparent technology?
  - kube-system 4y ago
    When it comes to privacy, for the vast majority of users, sane defaults are better than requiring the user to take manual action.
    - victor106 4y ago
      Exactly!!! This might seem like I am an Apple fanboy but I am not, I have plenty issues with Apple products but when it comes to Privacy Apple is the only company amongst the big tech we can trust. Microsoft, Google, Facebook are all anti-privacy and just about using dar patterns to steal users info. It’s disgusting.
      - fsflover 4y ago
        > when it comes to Privacy Apple is the only company amongst the big tech we can trust No, it's not: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34299433 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34299433, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26639261 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26639261, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26644216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26644216.
      - kube-system 4y ago
        I wouldn't leap that far, I'm just talking about the lid switch on a laptop here.
    - raxxorraxor 4y ago
      It is still the correct solution. A sensible default doesn't conflict here, but hardware switched are the only solution where you can be entirely sure.
      - kube-system 4y ago
        The problem is a separate switch leaves mainstream non-paranoid users unprotected, because it requires conscious activation by the user. And anyway, a lid switch is a hardware switch. But most importantly, it activates passively during normal usage patterns.
  - matthewmacleod 4y ago
    No, that's not the "correct solution". It's another valid solution, with a different set of costs and benefits.
  - 908B64B197 4y ago
    I'd rather have an LED on the same circuit as the microphone. If it's live, it has to send current through it. Easy to observe.
  - j45 4y ago
    Even if it was configurable to disable either.
- itslennysfault 4y ago
  [flagged]
- crazygringo 4y ago
  The microphone is located inside the left speaker grille anyways, so it would be terribly muffled in clamshell mode anyways. Note this is in contrast to previous models where the microphone had a tiny hole on the left edge (next to USB-C ports) and it could be used in clamshell mode. Which at first I thought felt like a downgrade... but the reality is that your laptop isn't usually in a good position for mic pickup when it's closed anyways -- people often keep it off to the side or something, under a monitor riser, etc. While the speaker grille location, being front-facing rather than side-facing, is far better for picking up voice when using the laptop normally. And that anybody using a mic in clamshell mode usually already has one in their webcam or AirPods or headset or a dedicated mic anyways. So all in all it seems to work out pretty well.
  - prettyStandard 4y ago
    Can confirm with my older MacBook that anytime I try to use the microphone with the lid closed people always complain.
  - j45 4y ago
    I have leaned on the clamshell mode mic from time to time as well. Tbh getting a simple but high quality mic has been nice. It picked up a Steelseries Tusk. It was the highest recording quality I could find for in ear headphone with a small boom mic for the dollar. Easy to leave one each in my bag and desks if I like it. I’m considering finding a way to use the mic only. It doesn’t hurt to be the clearest sounding person by a long shot on most calls. https://www.amazon.com/SteelSeries-Tusq-Mobile-Gaming-Headset/dp/B096L3ZJ26/ https://www.amazon.com/SteelSeries-Tusq-Mobile-Gaming-Headse... https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/steelseries/tusq https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/steelseries/tusq .. the recording quality section is of interest.
  - bilekas 4y ago
    The 2015 pro model i have is an absolute nightmare for the fan as the mic was picking up the noise of the fan and so the CPU was working overtime to cancel the noise leading to cascading fan and heat noise. Ended up just disabling it completely permanently. Was a particularly bad design i think.
- alin23 4y ago
  In case you or anyone else needs to disable the MacBook screen and still use the mic, camera, keyboard, trackpad etc. I added a feature called BlackOut in my Lunar app that can do that (https://lunar.fyi/#blackout https://lunar.fyi/#blackout). This allows "clamshell mode" without closing the lid. (although some people might want to close the lid for desk aesthetics, this feature is not for them) On Apple Silicon with macOS Ventura the feature can really disconnect the screen by Command-clicking the power button: https://shots.panaitiu.com/x52NJxpR https://shots.panaitiu.com/x52NJxpR There's also a write-up on how I reverse engineered this feature: https://alinpanaitiu.com/blog/turn-off-macbook-display-clamshell/ https://alinpanaitiu.com/blog/turn-off-macbook-display-clams... On older systems, BlackOut mimics a disconnect by setting the screen to 0 brightness and mirroring it to avoid windows getting trapped there.
  - Firmwarrior 4y ago
    haha, that was a really interesting writeup. It looked a lot like the process I end up following when I try to reverse engineer something The whole way through I kept wondering "Wow, I wonder how he's going to tie this all together in the end!" .. and then I got to the end
  - cscharenberg 4y ago
    This is incredible software. Thank you for linking to it. It has features I've long wished for in a laptop!
- dheera 4y ago
  And how are we supposed to trust Apple that this is in fact what's happening? With a Framework laptop I have a hardware physical switch and I can actually open it up and see the PCB trace and verify that it disconnects the microphone.
  - zamnos 4y ago
    At the point that you're opening up the laptop and chasing traces, you can do the same thing with Apple devices (with a bit more difficulty). It's not like they're made with rainbows and moonbeams. If you're at that level of paranoia (no judgement if it's justified or not) and have the skill to, just open up the Apple device and chase PCB traces. If you go down that route, iFixit's a good resource with lots of helpful pictures. (But still sometimes not enough.)
    - dheera 4y ago
      If it's in-chip, it won't be with PCB traces, it would be solid state inside the chip and you wouldn't be able to verify without inspecting the wafer, which is way outside my area of expertise. It doesn't sound like there's a mechanical relay that they are using for this. There's also that if it's inside the chip, there is a risk that malicious software or buggy firmware can still enable it against your permission. With a Framework laptop you can peel back the bezel and it's right there in plain sight. If the switch is in the off position it's a hard physical break to the microphone circuit. There is no possible software that can enable the microphone.
      - zamnos 4y ago
        Nothing can beat a physical switch but even if it's solid state, unless it's in the CPU itself (it isn't) there still need to be traces in/on the PCB to bring the data from the microphone to the rest of the system, so just probe those traces when the lid is open vs closed. Or learn how to decap chips. There are some really awesome videos out there about that on YouTube! More importantly though, Apple learned their lesson with the iSight which had a software-based activation LED. They assumed a random script kiddie wouldn't have the smarts to be able to hack the kext kernel module to turn the camera on without also turning the LED on. Unfortunately they learned about the Internet shortly thereafter where random script kiddies were able to get instructions on how to modify that kext, leading to some embarrassing moments, for some (possibly naked) high school teens, and for Apple. Thats why the linked article is very careful to specifically mention that even having root and being able to manipulate kexts is not enough to silently use the microphone while closed. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35059224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35059224
- r00fus 4y ago
  Just use a headset or external mic. If you're in clamshell you're probably at your desk/home office so that's quite reasonable. Also nice - if I'm WFH and one of my family walks in with some drama, I close the lid, go clamshell mode, and I am quite sure any corporate spyware isn't listening in.
  - dividedbyzero 4y ago
    I wish there were good quality webcams without microphones. My external microphone has a mute switch but my Streamcam mic is still available to any corporate spyware.
    - reductum 4y ago
      I wish the same. In the meantime, I like using these physical USB switches to easily disconnect my webcam when not in use: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07X82661H https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07X82661H
      - dividedbyzero 4y ago
        There don't seem to be any USB3 capable ones sadly. The webcam I use supports USB2 too, but image quality takes a noticeable dip.
- samstave 4y ago
  >>"Apple silicon-based Mac" What does "silicon-based" - mean? What other computer is not 'silicon-based'? -- Is there a way to mechanize the HW detachment of microphone connections at will while using the machine open? That would be great - if you had a physical switch on the side of machine, which physicall moves the mic wire a mm away from the contact. --- Weird thing - I put tape over my webcam at all times, unless in use, obv. After some time I received a pop-up alert on windows 11 and it lasted briefly, and went away - but freaked me out: "You should unblock your webcam" or something to that effect, I dont have the exact wording - but it was an alert telling me to unblock visibility of my webcam - I think it may have mentioned something about UX reasons - but it happened so quick I missed all the wording. Yeah - tape over your cams. ---- It would be cool to have a phone case where is the case screen-facing-flap is closed, it pulls the wool over the eyes of the front-facing cams, so even in 'sleep' mode when the case is closed, the phones cams are all covered... but the mic is a different creature. ------ Remember when NSA was intercepting cisco equipment to install HW back doors in devices shipped to 'enemy' states. We have known forever about NSA HW backdoors... but a case that can manipulate the HW MIC switchoff mechanism of a phone with such capability would be cool. Else ; we need 100% trustworthy ability to disable our Spy-Pilots.
  - sirsar 4y ago
    > >>"Apple silicon-based Mac" > What does "silicon-based" - mean? What other computer is not 'silicon-based'? Read as (Apple silicon)-based.
    - samstave 4y ago
      Thank you. Wasn't aware.
  - weberer 4y ago
    "Apple Silicon" is the brand of processors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_silicon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_silicon
    - samstave 4y ago
- sixothree 4y ago
  I assume clamshell mode would affect heat dissipation through the keyboard.
- dclowd9901 4y ago
  Lid sensors? Why didn’t they just have a hinge that the wiring ran through that disconnects at a certain angle…
Waterluvian 4y ago
On the topic of closing and opening your MacBook, has anyone else had an issue where with an M1 any time they open it from sleep the cursor moves at like 20hz until you close it and open it again? It’s been driving me mad and I can’t find anything about it online.
- gjsman-1000 4y ago
  I had an issue that drove me mad where if the battery went to 0% (and macOS went into hibernate), I would then plug it back in and the mouse cursor would be quite... jittery. Almost to the point of unusable at the worst of it. macOS 13.1? appears to have solved this problem. Better late than never.
  - Waterluvian 4y ago
    Oh!! I just finally updated to 13.1. I should test it out. Thanks for the reminder.
  - renewiltord 4y ago
    Oh I had the same jittery pointer but couldn't figure out the cause. Seems gone now so maybe it was fixed in the update.
  - whitepoplar 4y ago
    Same here
  - BoorishBears 4y ago
    I had an infuriating variant of this across two M1 machines where they'd kernel panic while trying to hibernate at 0% battery. And even plugging in a charger before it actually died wouldn't save it: It'd try to turn stay on but the pending hibernation would kick in and it'd die. The "fix" for me was to turn off deep sleep. Technically now they'll drain more during sleep, but that's preferrable than being broken during sleep. The whole experience was disappointingly Linux though. Having to read through the Console to figure out it was a kernel panic and not a power issue, having to read through Darwin sources to track down where exactly in the hibernation it was failing, not the kind of stuff I expect to deal with from Apple hardware.
CryptoBanker 4y ago
This title is slightly confusing. I was thinking that closing my MacBook disables this privacy feature
- O__________O 4y ago
  Title was updated, but for context, prior to editing by HN mods, HN’s title for the post read, “Closing your MacBook hardware disconnects microphone, safety/privacy feature” — was confusing edit made by OP; current title now mirrors title on Apple.
bambam24 4y ago
[dead]
behnamoh 4y ago
I wish Apple would think about MacBook screens when the lid is closed. Too many times I've had to wipe clean the display after opening because the keys leave shapes on the monitor.
- riffic 4y ago
  wash your hands
- fwlr 4y ago
  I found this with my first MacBook Air. Ever since, I keep the little paper insert that comes with a new MacBook. It stays in my laptop case, solves this issue perfectly.
- kitsunesoba 4y ago
  YMMV, but in my experience this happens mainly when the MacBook has been sitting under something else or packed tightly in a bag. I never see it if the laptop has been closed with nothing applying pressure on the lid. Not that this isn’t a design oversight, but it might be mitigable until Apple makes design tweaks to fix it.
  - gorbypark 4y ago
    It's been a thing for 10+ years, I don't think Apple has any interest in design tweaks. I have seen the marks on my new MBA M2 after just closing the laptop and carrying it in my hand for 2 minutes. I wasn't gripping it tightly or anything, just carrying it like a normal human would carry it.
    - kitsunesoba 4y ago
      Interesting. I wonder if maybe the smaller models (Air, 13" and maybe 14" Pro) are more prone to this? I've had very little trouble with it on 15" models from 2015 onward or with the 16" M1 Pro.
      - lotsofpulp 4y ago
54bg45b45b 4y ago
So nice of them to give more privacy features when closing the laptop. Here is a fun thing that happens if you keep your laptop on to play some music or maybe run a light server with the lid closed. The backlight of the LCD turns off, but the LCD does not turn off. This causes screen burn in. There is no way to turn the screen off when you shut certain model mac laptops. So on one hand, we have a company offering neat privacy gimmicks and on the other, deploying anti-consumer practices at every corner of their product. Privacy is the bait that will trap you into their money sucking ecosystem. Manage it yourself or companies will always find a way to use it to exploit you. Even when they are not busy actively violating your privacy.
- 7v3x3n3sem9vv 4y ago
  im gonna disagree with this take. I've seen thousands of MacBooks come and go from early 2016 all the way through current models and screen burn in is just not something I've ever seen. hardware/firmware bugs, bloated batteries, keyboard keys rubbed onto the screen, etc sure, but display defects from normal usage? not once.
  - 54bg45b45b 4y ago
    I may not have been clear and you may have misunderstood. If you use the laptop as apple intends, there is no issue usually. But the problem is what apple intends is very rigid and there is no room for edge cases at all. So, to replicate you only need to ensure the laptop stays on while the lid is closed. In my case I was using the laptop as a white noise machine for months. A few weeks in I opened the lid and noticed burn in. I tried to find ways to manually turn the LCD off but I could find no verifiable way to do this. The only solution I ended up with was running that screen saver with the wavy colors. The LCD screen does NOT turn off when the lid is closed. Only the backlight, which will NOT prevent burn in. I am positive all mac laptops are suicidal.
    - kaba0 4y ago
      They are not good at being suicidal given that they have a blooming second/third-market and many people happily use them for years-on-end.
rileymat2 4y ago
I know some of the reasoning, but I find it really obnoxious the way it kills the wifi when switching users. I often am bouncing back and forth, I get the reasoning, but it would be nice if there was a setting to stop that.
lovehashbrowns 4y ago
They have this feature but closing the lid on a MacBook or even putting it to sleep allows Bluetooth devices to stay connected. Heck, a MacBook even while in sleep mode will connect to Bluetooth devices. As far as I can see, this requires a third-party app to fix. Can an application still use the microphone on a Bluetooth device that’s connected?
- altairprime 4y ago
  Yes, I videoconference regularly from a closed-lid MacBook with a Bluetooth headset.
- dvirsky 4y ago
  This has to be the most annoying thing in MacOS. My laptop, soundly sleeping in my backpack, takes over my bluetooth headphones all the time.
  - supermdguy 4y ago
    I hate that this isn't configurable by default, but bluesnooze solved this for me: https://github.com/odlp/bluesnooze https://github.com/odlp/bluesnooze
    - jbj 4y ago
      this comments reminds me about owning a mac and installing a github repo to allow mouse scrolling direction to not be tied to touch pad scrolling [edit] just following up, it was UnnaturalScrollWheels, which have been notarized: https://github.com/ther0n/UnnaturalScrollWheels/releases/tag/1.2.3 https://github.com/ther0n/UnnaturalScrollWheels/releases/tag...
      - addandsubtract 4y ago
        The zoom scroll is disconnected from the scroll direction as well. I'm not sure if they fixed it by now or if I just got used to it, but it was super disorienting when I noticed it.
FollowingTheDao 4y ago
I am getting more and more frustrated with all the things Apple thinks I want my computer to do.
- FollowingTheDao 4y ago
  I am glad you all disagree with my personal feelings. :^/
O__________O 4y ago
Anyone have an explanation of how Apple actually decides what merits security and what does not? (For example, it’s my understanding that turning turn off a iPhone, it’s bluetooth, etc — does not actually completely turn them off. Also appears hardware/OS specs vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction; for example, it is my understanding China limits a number of iPhone’s hardware/OS specs for domestic iPhones.)
- meatmanek 4y ago
  When you bring up the option to turn off your phone, there's a toggle to let you turn off "Find my iPhone", with a decent description: "iPhone Findable After Power Off >" > iPhone Remains Findable After Power Off > Find My helps you locate this iPhone when it is lost or stolen, even in power reserve mode or after power off. > > The location is visible in Find My on your other devices, and to people in Family Sharing you share location with. > > You can temporarily turn off Find My network and it will resume when this iPhone is powered on again. > > OK > Temporarily Turn Off Finding If you click Temporarily Turn Off Finding, you need to enter your passcode. This is to prevent phone thieves from just turning off your phone to make it untraceable. My expectation is that if you Temporarily Turn Off Finding, the bluetooth radio is fully off.
  - O__________O 4y ago
    Understand your point, though doesn’t match my experiences turning a iPhone off fully charged before sleeping (including configuration you mentioned) — and then leaving it off for the night only to find the battery drained significantly in the morning upon turning it on. Beyond that, unlike the OP article that’s subject of this thread, not aware of any Apple support article that clearly states off is off if XYZ is done. Obvious solution would be a switch that physically disconnects the battery, drains capacitors, etc. — though it would likely require redesign of how the system clock pulls power, though might be wrong: - https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/87580/how-does-an-ios-device-keep-time-when-it-is-out-of-power https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/87580/how-does-an-...
rob-olmos 4y ago
Another annoying mic feature was older macbooks (before T2 I think) didn't have any built-in way to plug in the 3.5mm jack for a mic, and the usual sound output still be the internal speakers. Or an easy way to set the mic to monitor mode like in Windows.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
amsterdorn 4y ago
Too bad your phone doesn't have a privacy feature like this! The advertisers are always listening.
- supriyo-biswas 4y ago
  Apple would have to make a foldable for such a feature to be acceptable for their target demographic.
- rationalist 4y ago
  While it's plausible and certainly a risk, I don't think anyone has presented any good evidence of it yet.
- kaba0 4y ago
  Anyone claiming that is just not familiar with the processing requirements that would entail. Especially that you leave more than enough data for advertisers by simply using facebook/messenger and interacting with other people, or just searching google, it simply wouldn’t make economic sense to create such a software/hardware which would drain batteries like no tomorrow, and open them up to serious backlash.
- astrange 4y ago
  iPhones show an orange light when the microphone is on, and a green dot for the front camera.
bobleeswagger 4y ago
Me at 14: WTF APPLE IT'S MY MICROPHONE Me at 30: Cool.
ouid 4y ago
if only this also disconnected the speakers
WalterBright 4y ago
The microphone/camera disconnect must be a physical switch that physically disconnects it. Absolutely not a software switch.
- tantalor 4y ago
  ... isn't that what is described here? What is the point of this comment.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    I misunderstood. Sorry.
iamspoilt 4y ago
Does that mean MacBook microphone cannot work while operating in Dock mode?
- amf12 4y ago
  This is an interesting use case that is worth mentioning. This feature would make MacBook unusable for me unless I use a Bluetooth headset.
- jaysinn_420 4y ago
  Yes, that is exactly what it means.
- iLoveOncall 4y ago
  Yes, and it's incredibly annoying.
  - mrtksn 4y ago
    I guess this fits the situation: https://xkcd.com/1172/ https://xkcd.com/1172/ It probably wouldn't work well due to the obstruction anyway.
    - iLoveOncall 4y ago
      No it doesn't. The sound plays just fine when the computer is closed, why would the microphone stop? You are able to use an external monitor with your laptop closed, it's not an edge case to want to use the computer's mic in that case.
      - mrtksn 4y ago
        It's not just fine, it's degraded quality because these are directional beam forming microphones.
- havefunbesafe 4y ago
  Imagine how terribly it would work, given that the mic is adjacent to the speakers.
Reptur 4y ago
Should just be a hardware switch you can flip. We should be able to decide whether the webcam or mic is physically connected.
- edgartaor 4y ago
  Exactly. Its like companies are allergic to phisical switches.
  - surteen 4y ago
    Except HP, Lenovo, Framework, Purism...
  - hanniabu 4y ago
    Costs more and you can't create back doors
  - sneak 4y ago
    There is a physical switch. It's the lid. It's not even a soft switch, the article clearly specifies that it's done in non-reprogrammable hardware logic, which is immune to tampering even by Apple who has bootloader signing keys.
    - notabee 4y ago
      That's a pretty poorly designed switch, if your intention is to turn off the microphone while otherwise using the system. It's better than not having any way to disconnect the microphone, but strictly inferior to any system where you can toggle the desired state at any time.
  - SamuelAdams 4y ago
    Everything has a cost. Physical switches that are frequently used are among the first to fail. This is partly why iPhones got rid of the home button in lieu of Face ID. Now, macbooks automatically start up when the lid is opened - this saves an extra button press to the power button. Over the lifespan of the device this reduces wear and tear on common buttons significantly. What would be nice is physical switches that are easily replaceable - but this also impacts a device's water-proofness and thinness. And the market prefers those two factors over switches, generally.
pulse7 4y ago
Please, just add a physical switch to disconnect the microphone and camera and even battery! Why the hell do we need special chips to do this? Every chip can be hacked... internet hackers can't turn on physical switches...
- kylehotchkiss 4y ago
  It doesn't sound like a special chip, it sounds like an optical relay hooked up to a Hall effect sensor. If magnetic connection is available, the optical relay will disconnect the microphone entirely. They just started doing this with T2+ models.
- notfed 4y ago
  Is closing the lid the only way to do this? I never use my camera or mic. I'd be happy opening my laptop and switching a dip switch. Does one exist? Does anyone know?
  - Gigachad 4y ago
    On macOS you could just never grant access to the mic when apps ask.
- hermanb 4y ago
  It is not disconnected by “a chip”. It is disconnected by something that closely resembles a physical switch. This is the point of the article. There is no software involved. It can’t be hacked.
- anyfoo 4y ago
  > Every chip can be hacked... internet hackers can't turn on physical switches... Others have replied to the specifics here, but I'd like to add that "every chip can be hacked" is just categorically false (unless you also allow for physical access for "hacked", but then that would apply to the physical switch as well). "Chips" are neither magical devices, nor are they necessarily running something akin to software, or controlling everything purely through software even if they do. As a simple example, you can be very confident that a (real) ROM is a ROM, and that its contents cannot be changed by software.
kylehotchkiss 4y ago
I had no idea about the iPad microphone disconnect. That's cool enough to justify getting a new case. I wish they'd address some of their other products. Optionally enable hardware microphone disconnect on phones when placing upside down with their lockdown mode. No idea how the watch microphone could be disabled.
- worksonmine 4y ago
  > No idea how the watch microphone could be disabled. Not everything has to be a futuristic gesture you know, could just have a hardware switch like on the librem phones. Also more reliable than the sensors, and that's something I would like for a privacy feature. Knowing that it's disconnected and can't be tampered with.
I_am_tiberius 4y ago
In general they should finally open source the operating system. A close source system should not be called safe, private or secure.
- dev_tty01 4y ago
  First, Apple does open source the core OS as Darwin. I appreciate your perspective, but I am curious why anyone would think that open sourcing the rest of it is even a remote possibility? As far as closed source being safe, I don't think open source is safe either. We have seen some horrendous exploitable bugs which lived in open source code for years. Just because something can be thoroughly audited, doesn't mean it is. I've personally been around a lot of years, and I'm just no longer convinced that a handful of sincere and enthusiastic volunteers can be better at security than a highly motivated, well paid, staff of competent engineers. These systems are just too complex nowadays. I get the concept of open source and having the ability to review the code, etc., but in practice stuff happens anyway in either case. Sorry for the rambling, but I guess I'm just not so convinced any more about the absolutist arguments concerning the relative merits. Maybe I'm just getting too cynical...
  - aprilnya 4y ago
    No one said fire the entire macOS team and only have volunteers contribute. You can have an actual team and still be open source
sam0x17 4y ago
If I'm reading correctly, this also removes one of the 20 potential issues with clamshell mode. Unfortunatley there are still plenty of other issues with clamshell mode :/
coldacid 4y ago
How about a disconnect even when it's open?
- harry8 4y ago
  Remember when iSight firewire external laptop cameras had a physical iris opaque shutter? I can't think of a reason not involving TLA conspiracy that has everyone so allergic to a physical switch that disables microphones and a shutter that the camera cannot see through. Cheap, easy, reliable, desirable. Pick any four yet nobody, absoutely nobody does it and if they do they drop it almost immediately. Lenovo T series have a physical switch that moves the camera in the lid to turn it off, whole camera slides sidways a little but doesn't cover the lens.
AlbertCory 4y ago
(this is about phones as well as laptops) Not only HW disconnect of the mic, but the speakers as well. I want a switch on the side that does the equivalent of taping over the camera. No software can use them when they're off, period. Take back your privacy.
- sneak 4y ago
  What privacy is lost by someone using your front-facing camera when you don't want them to? The microphone is far more important. Pictures of your face are simple and easy to acquire; you give them up willingly every time you walk into a convenience store, airport, bank, or use an ATM. They're not secret and their compromise does not harm you.
  - AlbertCory 4y ago
    Is this a serious question? Who is "someone"?
al_be_back 4y ago
a physical switch would be ideal - akin to Ring/Silent feature on iPhones
unscrew5430 4y ago
I wonder whether one would be able to do passive sound reconstruction using the laptops camera, sice it isn't being deactivated. I guess you would only be able to extract sounds lower than ~30Hz if the camera records at 60Hz, but that should be enough to detect steps for example. Not that this has real privacy implications, but I think that would be a fun way of disproving that no sound can be recorded.
krzyk 4y ago
Now, how hard it would be to allow user to have a slider (just like the one on iPhones for DND) to allow hardware disabling of mic?

720 points by janniks 4y ago

teeok2023 4y ago

Thanks you

m3kw9 4y ago

When will Europe say they can do this?

janniks 4y ago

I was recently trying to figure out whether the microphone is usable when using my notebook in clamshell-mode. Turns out Apple added a privacy/safety feature to all Apple silicon-based Mac notebooks and Intel-based Mac notebooks with the Apple T2 Security Chip. It will hardware disconnect the microphone when the lid is closed, based on the lid sensors. Pretty cool safety feature!! Even though I'm sad I can't use my mic in clamshell mode

fsflover 4y ago
The correct solution would be to have a hardware kill switch for the microphone (and camera). This is exactly what Purism laptops offer.
- sdfhbdf 4y ago
  Probably not in Apple’s “it just works” design philosophy. Also that’s another moving piece that can break.
  - JamesSwift 4y ago
    I mean... it doesnt seem uncommon to have people dock a closed laptop so I would argue it doesnt "just work".
    - dymk 4y ago
      How would a microphone work with the lid closed anyways? It’d be muffled. If you’re docking your laptop closed, you’ve got an external webcam / mic if you need those inputs.
      - vbezhenar 4y ago
        Why would I need to get mic if I have it in laptop? It makes very little sense to me.
        dymk 4y ago
        So then you dock it with the lid open, in which case the mic and camera work fine and aren’t muffled…
        OmarAssadi 4y ago
        For the same reason you might have other external peripherals. A laptop, realistically, can only fit something so decent inside of it. The 2020+ MacBooks do have surprisingly OK internal mics, but that's about all they are: OK. Maybe I'm just an extra-big baby about it all. But what I find a little annoying with the COVID-era of work-from-home and distance learning is how few people seem to care about audio. Even as a teenager on TeamSpeak, rather than getting a more expensive graphics card or whatever, I spent my money on an SM7B. Now it is more important than ever. Maybe this isn't reasonable, but I feel like if not for yourself, to prevent "sorry, can you repeat that?" moments, you kind of owe it to the people who have to listen to you. Like as an autistic person, hearing a dozen people's overlapping background static, tinny compressed audio, etc, it really, truly slowly drives me nuts. I can't deal with that level of auditory sensory stuff all day. If someone has a bad microphone, I want out of the call ASAP. A Shure SM58 will last you a lifetime, fit on your desk, cost <$100, and no one will ever complain about sound again.
        dividedbyzero 4y ago
        People don't know how bad they sound. It's as simple as that I think, there is no easy monitor functionality in Teams and friends like the preview image for camera, so there is no urgency.
- dymk 4y ago
  This is a hardware kill switch, in the form of a (set of) transistors
  - fsflover 4y ago
    Can it be reprogrammed?
    - jeffbee 4y ago
      No. It is bare logic.
      - fsflover 4y ago
        Interesting. Note however that my comment was a reply to "I can't use my mic in clamshell mode". A normal kill switch would solve this.
- earlyam 4y ago
  A cool feature on laptops would be a jumper you could physically disconnect, and a tiny window (on say, the bottom of the laptop) to verify it hasn't been reconnected.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    If you need a window on the case of your laptop to verify that your hardware hasn't been tampered with, you've got bigger problems.
    - meltyness 4y ago
      You're against transparent technology?
- kube-system 4y ago
  When it comes to privacy, for the vast majority of users, sane defaults are better than requiring the user to take manual action.
  - victor106 4y ago
    Exactly!!! This might seem like I am an Apple fanboy but I am not, I have plenty issues with Apple products but when it comes to Privacy Apple is the only company amongst the big tech we can trust. Microsoft, Google, Facebook are all anti-privacy and just about using dar patterns to steal users info. It’s disgusting.
    - fsflover 4y ago
      > when it comes to Privacy Apple is the only company amongst the big tech we can trust No, it's not: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34299433 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34299433, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26639261 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26639261, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26644216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26644216.
    - kube-system 4y ago
      I wouldn't leap that far, I'm just talking about the lid switch on a laptop here.
  - raxxorraxor 4y ago
    It is still the correct solution. A sensible default doesn't conflict here, but hardware switched are the only solution where you can be entirely sure.
    - kube-system 4y ago
      The problem is a separate switch leaves mainstream non-paranoid users unprotected, because it requires conscious activation by the user. And anyway, a lid switch is a hardware switch. But most importantly, it activates passively during normal usage patterns.
- matthewmacleod 4y ago
  No, that's not the "correct solution". It's another valid solution, with a different set of costs and benefits.
- 908B64B197 4y ago
  I'd rather have an LED on the same circuit as the microphone. If it's live, it has to send current through it. Easy to observe.
- j45 4y ago
  Even if it was configurable to disable either.
itslennysfault 4y ago
[flagged]
crazygringo 4y ago
The microphone is located inside the left speaker grille anyways, so it would be terribly muffled in clamshell mode anyways. Note this is in contrast to previous models where the microphone had a tiny hole on the left edge (next to USB-C ports) and it could be used in clamshell mode. Which at first I thought felt like a downgrade... but the reality is that your laptop isn't usually in a good position for mic pickup when it's closed anyways -- people often keep it off to the side or something, under a monitor riser, etc. While the speaker grille location, being front-facing rather than side-facing, is far better for picking up voice when using the laptop normally. And that anybody using a mic in clamshell mode usually already has one in their webcam or AirPods or headset or a dedicated mic anyways. So all in all it seems to work out pretty well.
- prettyStandard 4y ago
  Can confirm with my older MacBook that anytime I try to use the microphone with the lid closed people always complain.
- j45 4y ago
  I have leaned on the clamshell mode mic from time to time as well. Tbh getting a simple but high quality mic has been nice. It picked up a Steelseries Tusk. It was the highest recording quality I could find for in ear headphone with a small boom mic for the dollar. Easy to leave one each in my bag and desks if I like it. I’m considering finding a way to use the mic only. It doesn’t hurt to be the clearest sounding person by a long shot on most calls. https://www.amazon.com/SteelSeries-Tusq-Mobile-Gaming-Headset/dp/B096L3ZJ26/ https://www.amazon.com/SteelSeries-Tusq-Mobile-Gaming-Headse... https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/steelseries/tusq https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/steelseries/tusq .. the recording quality section is of interest.
- bilekas 4y ago
  The 2015 pro model i have is an absolute nightmare for the fan as the mic was picking up the noise of the fan and so the CPU was working overtime to cancel the noise leading to cascading fan and heat noise. Ended up just disabling it completely permanently. Was a particularly bad design i think.
alin23 4y ago
In case you or anyone else needs to disable the MacBook screen and still use the mic, camera, keyboard, trackpad etc. I added a feature called BlackOut in my Lunar app that can do that (https://lunar.fyi/#blackout https://lunar.fyi/#blackout). This allows "clamshell mode" without closing the lid. (although some people might want to close the lid for desk aesthetics, this feature is not for them) On Apple Silicon with macOS Ventura the feature can really disconnect the screen by Command-clicking the power button: https://shots.panaitiu.com/x52NJxpR https://shots.panaitiu.com/x52NJxpR There's also a write-up on how I reverse engineered this feature: https://alinpanaitiu.com/blog/turn-off-macbook-display-clamshell/ https://alinpanaitiu.com/blog/turn-off-macbook-display-clams... On older systems, BlackOut mimics a disconnect by setting the screen to 0 brightness and mirroring it to avoid windows getting trapped there.
- Firmwarrior 4y ago
  haha, that was a really interesting writeup. It looked a lot like the process I end up following when I try to reverse engineer something The whole way through I kept wondering "Wow, I wonder how he's going to tie this all together in the end!" .. and then I got to the end
- cscharenberg 4y ago
  This is incredible software. Thank you for linking to it. It has features I've long wished for in a laptop!
dheera 4y ago
And how are we supposed to trust Apple that this is in fact what's happening? With a Framework laptop I have a hardware physical switch and I can actually open it up and see the PCB trace and verify that it disconnects the microphone.
- zamnos 4y ago
  At the point that you're opening up the laptop and chasing traces, you can do the same thing with Apple devices (with a bit more difficulty). It's not like they're made with rainbows and moonbeams. If you're at that level of paranoia (no judgement if it's justified or not) and have the skill to, just open up the Apple device and chase PCB traces. If you go down that route, iFixit's a good resource with lots of helpful pictures. (But still sometimes not enough.)
  - dheera 4y ago
    If it's in-chip, it won't be with PCB traces, it would be solid state inside the chip and you wouldn't be able to verify without inspecting the wafer, which is way outside my area of expertise. It doesn't sound like there's a mechanical relay that they are using for this. There's also that if it's inside the chip, there is a risk that malicious software or buggy firmware can still enable it against your permission. With a Framework laptop you can peel back the bezel and it's right there in plain sight. If the switch is in the off position it's a hard physical break to the microphone circuit. There is no possible software that can enable the microphone.
    - zamnos 4y ago
      Nothing can beat a physical switch but even if it's solid state, unless it's in the CPU itself (it isn't) there still need to be traces in/on the PCB to bring the data from the microphone to the rest of the system, so just probe those traces when the lid is open vs closed. Or learn how to decap chips. There are some really awesome videos out there about that on YouTube! More importantly though, Apple learned their lesson with the iSight which had a software-based activation LED. They assumed a random script kiddie wouldn't have the smarts to be able to hack the kext kernel module to turn the camera on without also turning the LED on. Unfortunately they learned about the Internet shortly thereafter where random script kiddies were able to get instructions on how to modify that kext, leading to some embarrassing moments, for some (possibly naked) high school teens, and for Apple. Thats why the linked article is very careful to specifically mention that even having root and being able to manipulate kexts is not enough to silently use the microphone while closed. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35059224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35059224
r00fus 4y ago
Just use a headset or external mic. If you're in clamshell you're probably at your desk/home office so that's quite reasonable. Also nice - if I'm WFH and one of my family walks in with some drama, I close the lid, go clamshell mode, and I am quite sure any corporate spyware isn't listening in.
- dividedbyzero 4y ago
  I wish there were good quality webcams without microphones. My external microphone has a mute switch but my Streamcam mic is still available to any corporate spyware.
  - reductum 4y ago
    I wish the same. In the meantime, I like using these physical USB switches to easily disconnect my webcam when not in use: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07X82661H https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07X82661H
    - dividedbyzero 4y ago
      There don't seem to be any USB3 capable ones sadly. The webcam I use supports USB2 too, but image quality takes a noticeable dip.
samstave 4y ago
>>"Apple silicon-based Mac" What does "silicon-based" - mean? What other computer is not 'silicon-based'? -- Is there a way to mechanize the HW detachment of microphone connections at will while using the machine open? That would be great - if you had a physical switch on the side of machine, which physicall moves the mic wire a mm away from the contact. --- Weird thing - I put tape over my webcam at all times, unless in use, obv. After some time I received a pop-up alert on windows 11 and it lasted briefly, and went away - but freaked me out: "You should unblock your webcam" or something to that effect, I dont have the exact wording - but it was an alert telling me to unblock visibility of my webcam - I think it may have mentioned something about UX reasons - but it happened so quick I missed all the wording. Yeah - tape over your cams. ---- It would be cool to have a phone case where is the case screen-facing-flap is closed, it pulls the wool over the eyes of the front-facing cams, so even in 'sleep' mode when the case is closed, the phones cams are all covered... but the mic is a different creature. ------ Remember when NSA was intercepting cisco equipment to install HW back doors in devices shipped to 'enemy' states. We have known forever about NSA HW backdoors... but a case that can manipulate the HW MIC switchoff mechanism of a phone with such capability would be cool. Else ; we need 100% trustworthy ability to disable our Spy-Pilots.
- sirsar 4y ago
  > >>"Apple silicon-based Mac" > What does "silicon-based" - mean? What other computer is not 'silicon-based'? Read as (Apple silicon)-based.
  - samstave 4y ago
    Thank you. Wasn't aware.
- weberer 4y ago
  "Apple Silicon" is the brand of processors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_silicon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_silicon
  - samstave 4y ago
sixothree 4y ago
I assume clamshell mode would affect heat dissipation through the keyboard.
dclowd9901 4y ago
Lid sensors? Why didn’t they just have a hinge that the wiring ran through that disconnects at a certain angle…

Waterluvian 4y ago

On the topic of closing and opening your MacBook, has anyone else had an issue where with an M1 any time they open it from sleep the cursor moves at like 20hz until you close it and open it again? It’s been driving me mad and I can’t find anything about it online.

gjsman-1000 4y ago
I had an issue that drove me mad where if the battery went to 0% (and macOS went into hibernate), I would then plug it back in and the mouse cursor would be quite... jittery. Almost to the point of unusable at the worst of it. macOS 13.1? appears to have solved this problem. Better late than never.
- Waterluvian 4y ago
  Oh!! I just finally updated to 13.1. I should test it out. Thanks for the reminder.
- renewiltord 4y ago
  Oh I had the same jittery pointer but couldn't figure out the cause. Seems gone now so maybe it was fixed in the update.
- whitepoplar 4y ago
  Same here
- BoorishBears 4y ago
  I had an infuriating variant of this across two M1 machines where they'd kernel panic while trying to hibernate at 0% battery. And even plugging in a charger before it actually died wouldn't save it: It'd try to turn stay on but the pending hibernation would kick in and it'd die. The "fix" for me was to turn off deep sleep. Technically now they'll drain more during sleep, but that's preferrable than being broken during sleep. The whole experience was disappointingly Linux though. Having to read through the Console to figure out it was a kernel panic and not a power issue, having to read through Darwin sources to track down where exactly in the hibernation it was failing, not the kind of stuff I expect to deal with from Apple hardware.

CryptoBanker 4y ago

This title is slightly confusing. I was thinking that closing my MacBook disables this privacy feature

O__________O 4y ago
Title was updated, but for context, prior to editing by HN mods, HN’s title for the post read, “Closing your MacBook hardware disconnects microphone, safety/privacy feature” — was confusing edit made by OP; current title now mirrors title on Apple.

bambam24 4y ago

[dead]

behnamoh 4y ago

I wish Apple would think about MacBook screens when the lid is closed. Too many times I've had to wipe clean the display after opening because the keys leave shapes on the monitor.

riffic 4y ago
wash your hands
fwlr 4y ago
I found this with my first MacBook Air. Ever since, I keep the little paper insert that comes with a new MacBook. It stays in my laptop case, solves this issue perfectly.
kitsunesoba 4y ago
YMMV, but in my experience this happens mainly when the MacBook has been sitting under something else or packed tightly in a bag. I never see it if the laptop has been closed with nothing applying pressure on the lid. Not that this isn’t a design oversight, but it might be mitigable until Apple makes design tweaks to fix it.
- gorbypark 4y ago
  It's been a thing for 10+ years, I don't think Apple has any interest in design tweaks. I have seen the marks on my new MBA M2 after just closing the laptop and carrying it in my hand for 2 minutes. I wasn't gripping it tightly or anything, just carrying it like a normal human would carry it.
  - kitsunesoba 4y ago
    Interesting. I wonder if maybe the smaller models (Air, 13" and maybe 14" Pro) are more prone to this? I've had very little trouble with it on 15" models from 2015 onward or with the 16" M1 Pro.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago

54bg45b45b 4y ago

So nice of them to give more privacy features when closing the laptop. Here is a fun thing that happens if you keep your laptop on to play some music or maybe run a light server with the lid closed. The backlight of the LCD turns off, but the LCD does not turn off. This causes screen burn in. There is no way to turn the screen off when you shut certain model mac laptops. So on one hand, we have a company offering neat privacy gimmicks and on the other, deploying anti-consumer practices at every corner of their product. Privacy is the bait that will trap you into their money sucking ecosystem. Manage it yourself or companies will always find a way to use it to exploit you. Even when they are not busy actively violating your privacy.

7v3x3n3sem9vv 4y ago
im gonna disagree with this take. I've seen thousands of MacBooks come and go from early 2016 all the way through current models and screen burn in is just not something I've ever seen. hardware/firmware bugs, bloated batteries, keyboard keys rubbed onto the screen, etc sure, but display defects from normal usage? not once.
- 54bg45b45b 4y ago
  I may not have been clear and you may have misunderstood. If you use the laptop as apple intends, there is no issue usually. But the problem is what apple intends is very rigid and there is no room for edge cases at all. So, to replicate you only need to ensure the laptop stays on while the lid is closed. In my case I was using the laptop as a white noise machine for months. A few weeks in I opened the lid and noticed burn in. I tried to find ways to manually turn the LCD off but I could find no verifiable way to do this. The only solution I ended up with was running that screen saver with the wavy colors. The LCD screen does NOT turn off when the lid is closed. Only the backlight, which will NOT prevent burn in. I am positive all mac laptops are suicidal.
  - kaba0 4y ago
    They are not good at being suicidal given that they have a blooming second/third-market and many people happily use them for years-on-end.

rileymat2 4y ago

I know some of the reasoning, but I find it really obnoxious the way it kills the wifi when switching users. I often am bouncing back and forth, I get the reasoning, but it would be nice if there was a setting to stop that.

lovehashbrowns 4y ago

They have this feature but closing the lid on a MacBook or even putting it to sleep allows Bluetooth devices to stay connected. Heck, a MacBook even while in sleep mode will connect to Bluetooth devices. As far as I can see, this requires a third-party app to fix. Can an application still use the microphone on a Bluetooth device that’s connected?

altairprime 4y ago
Yes, I videoconference regularly from a closed-lid MacBook with a Bluetooth headset.
dvirsky 4y ago
This has to be the most annoying thing in MacOS. My laptop, soundly sleeping in my backpack, takes over my bluetooth headphones all the time.
- supermdguy 4y ago
  I hate that this isn't configurable by default, but bluesnooze solved this for me: https://github.com/odlp/bluesnooze https://github.com/odlp/bluesnooze
  - jbj 4y ago
    this comments reminds me about owning a mac and installing a github repo to allow mouse scrolling direction to not be tied to touch pad scrolling [edit] just following up, it was UnnaturalScrollWheels, which have been notarized: https://github.com/ther0n/UnnaturalScrollWheels/releases/tag/1.2.3 https://github.com/ther0n/UnnaturalScrollWheels/releases/tag...
    - addandsubtract 4y ago
      The zoom scroll is disconnected from the scroll direction as well. I'm not sure if they fixed it by now or if I just got used to it, but it was super disorienting when I noticed it.

FollowingTheDao 4y ago

I am getting more and more frustrated with all the things Apple thinks I want my computer to do.

FollowingTheDao 4y ago
I am glad you all disagree with my personal feelings. :^/

O__________O 4y ago

Anyone have an explanation of how Apple actually decides what merits security and what does not? (For example, it’s my understanding that turning turn off a iPhone, it’s bluetooth, etc — does not actually completely turn them off. Also appears hardware/OS specs vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction; for example, it is my understanding China limits a number of iPhone’s hardware/OS specs for domestic iPhones.)

meatmanek 4y ago
When you bring up the option to turn off your phone, there's a toggle to let you turn off "Find my iPhone", with a decent description: "iPhone Findable After Power Off >" > iPhone Remains Findable After Power Off > Find My helps you locate this iPhone when it is lost or stolen, even in power reserve mode or after power off. > > The location is visible in Find My on your other devices, and to people in Family Sharing you share location with. > > You can temporarily turn off Find My network and it will resume when this iPhone is powered on again. > > OK > Temporarily Turn Off Finding If you click Temporarily Turn Off Finding, you need to enter your passcode. This is to prevent phone thieves from just turning off your phone to make it untraceable. My expectation is that if you Temporarily Turn Off Finding, the bluetooth radio is fully off.
- O__________O 4y ago
  Understand your point, though doesn’t match my experiences turning a iPhone off fully charged before sleeping (including configuration you mentioned) — and then leaving it off for the night only to find the battery drained significantly in the morning upon turning it on. Beyond that, unlike the OP article that’s subject of this thread, not aware of any Apple support article that clearly states off is off if XYZ is done. Obvious solution would be a switch that physically disconnects the battery, drains capacitors, etc. — though it would likely require redesign of how the system clock pulls power, though might be wrong: - https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/87580/how-does-an-ios-device-keep-time-when-it-is-out-of-power https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/87580/how-does-an-...

rob-olmos 4y ago

Another annoying mic feature was older macbooks (before T2 I think) didn't have any built-in way to plug in the 3.5mm jack for a mic, and the usual sound output still be the internal speakers. Or an easy way to set the mic to monitor mode like in Windows.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

amsterdorn 4y ago

Too bad your phone doesn't have a privacy feature like this! The advertisers are always listening.

supriyo-biswas 4y ago
Apple would have to make a foldable for such a feature to be acceptable for their target demographic.
rationalist 4y ago
While it's plausible and certainly a risk, I don't think anyone has presented any good evidence of it yet.
kaba0 4y ago
Anyone claiming that is just not familiar with the processing requirements that would entail. Especially that you leave more than enough data for advertisers by simply using facebook/messenger and interacting with other people, or just searching google, it simply wouldn’t make economic sense to create such a software/hardware which would drain batteries like no tomorrow, and open them up to serious backlash.
astrange 4y ago
iPhones show an orange light when the microphone is on, and a green dot for the front camera.

bobleeswagger 4y ago

Me at 14: WTF APPLE IT'S MY MICROPHONE Me at 30: Cool.

ouid 4y ago

if only this also disconnected the speakers

WalterBright 4y ago

The microphone/camera disconnect must be a physical switch that physically disconnects it. Absolutely not a software switch.

tantalor 4y ago
... isn't that what is described here? What is the point of this comment.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  I misunderstood. Sorry.

iamspoilt 4y ago

Does that mean MacBook microphone cannot work while operating in Dock mode?

amf12 4y ago
This is an interesting use case that is worth mentioning. This feature would make MacBook unusable for me unless I use a Bluetooth headset.
jaysinn_420 4y ago
Yes, that is exactly what it means.
iLoveOncall 4y ago
Yes, and it's incredibly annoying.
- mrtksn 4y ago
  I guess this fits the situation: https://xkcd.com/1172/ https://xkcd.com/1172/ It probably wouldn't work well due to the obstruction anyway.
  - iLoveOncall 4y ago
    No it doesn't. The sound plays just fine when the computer is closed, why would the microphone stop? You are able to use an external monitor with your laptop closed, it's not an edge case to want to use the computer's mic in that case.
    - mrtksn 4y ago
      It's not just fine, it's degraded quality because these are directional beam forming microphones.
havefunbesafe 4y ago
Imagine how terribly it would work, given that the mic is adjacent to the speakers.

Reptur 4y ago

Should just be a hardware switch you can flip. We should be able to decide whether the webcam or mic is physically connected.

edgartaor 4y ago
Exactly. Its like companies are allergic to phisical switches.
- surteen 4y ago
  Except HP, Lenovo, Framework, Purism...
- hanniabu 4y ago
  Costs more and you can't create back doors
- sneak 4y ago
  There is a physical switch. It's the lid. It's not even a soft switch, the article clearly specifies that it's done in non-reprogrammable hardware logic, which is immune to tampering even by Apple who has bootloader signing keys.
  - notabee 4y ago
    That's a pretty poorly designed switch, if your intention is to turn off the microphone while otherwise using the system. It's better than not having any way to disconnect the microphone, but strictly inferior to any system where you can toggle the desired state at any time.
- SamuelAdams 4y ago
  Everything has a cost. Physical switches that are frequently used are among the first to fail. This is partly why iPhones got rid of the home button in lieu of Face ID. Now, macbooks automatically start up when the lid is opened - this saves an extra button press to the power button. Over the lifespan of the device this reduces wear and tear on common buttons significantly. What would be nice is physical switches that are easily replaceable - but this also impacts a device's water-proofness and thinness. And the market prefers those two factors over switches, generally.

pulse7 4y ago

Please, just add a physical switch to disconnect the microphone and camera and even battery! Why the hell do we need special chips to do this? Every chip can be hacked... internet hackers can't turn on physical switches...

kylehotchkiss 4y ago
It doesn't sound like a special chip, it sounds like an optical relay hooked up to a Hall effect sensor. If magnetic connection is available, the optical relay will disconnect the microphone entirely. They just started doing this with T2+ models.
notfed 4y ago
Is closing the lid the only way to do this? I never use my camera or mic. I'd be happy opening my laptop and switching a dip switch. Does one exist? Does anyone know?
- Gigachad 4y ago
  On macOS you could just never grant access to the mic when apps ask.
hermanb 4y ago
It is not disconnected by “a chip”. It is disconnected by something that closely resembles a physical switch. This is the point of the article. There is no software involved. It can’t be hacked.
anyfoo 4y ago
> Every chip can be hacked... internet hackers can't turn on physical switches... Others have replied to the specifics here, but I'd like to add that "every chip can be hacked" is just categorically false (unless you also allow for physical access for "hacked", but then that would apply to the physical switch as well). "Chips" are neither magical devices, nor are they necessarily running something akin to software, or controlling everything purely through software even if they do. As a simple example, you can be very confident that a (real) ROM is a ROM, and that its contents cannot be changed by software.

kylehotchkiss 4y ago

I had no idea about the iPad microphone disconnect. That's cool enough to justify getting a new case. I wish they'd address some of their other products. Optionally enable hardware microphone disconnect on phones when placing upside down with their lockdown mode. No idea how the watch microphone could be disabled.

worksonmine 4y ago
> No idea how the watch microphone could be disabled. Not everything has to be a futuristic gesture you know, could just have a hardware switch like on the librem phones. Also more reliable than the sensors, and that's something I would like for a privacy feature. Knowing that it's disconnected and can't be tampered with.

I_am_tiberius 4y ago

In general they should finally open source the operating system. A close source system should not be called safe, private or secure.

dev_tty01 4y ago
First, Apple does open source the core OS as Darwin. I appreciate your perspective, but I am curious why anyone would think that open sourcing the rest of it is even a remote possibility? As far as closed source being safe, I don't think open source is safe either. We have seen some horrendous exploitable bugs which lived in open source code for years. Just because something can be thoroughly audited, doesn't mean it is. I've personally been around a lot of years, and I'm just no longer convinced that a handful of sincere and enthusiastic volunteers can be better at security than a highly motivated, well paid, staff of competent engineers. These systems are just too complex nowadays. I get the concept of open source and having the ability to review the code, etc., but in practice stuff happens anyway in either case. Sorry for the rambling, but I guess I'm just not so convinced any more about the absolutist arguments concerning the relative merits. Maybe I'm just getting too cynical...
- aprilnya 4y ago
  No one said fire the entire macOS team and only have volunteers contribute. You can have an actual team and still be open source

sam0x17 4y ago

If I'm reading correctly, this also removes one of the 20 potential issues with clamshell mode. Unfortunatley there are still plenty of other issues with clamshell mode :/

coldacid 4y ago

How about a disconnect even when it's open?

harry8 4y ago
Remember when iSight firewire external laptop cameras had a physical iris opaque shutter? I can't think of a reason not involving TLA conspiracy that has everyone so allergic to a physical switch that disables microphones and a shutter that the camera cannot see through. Cheap, easy, reliable, desirable. Pick any four yet nobody, absoutely nobody does it and if they do they drop it almost immediately. Lenovo T series have a physical switch that moves the camera in the lid to turn it off, whole camera slides sidways a little but doesn't cover the lens.

AlbertCory 4y ago

(this is about phones as well as laptops) Not only HW disconnect of the mic, but the speakers as well. I want a switch on the side that does the equivalent of taping over the camera. No software can use them when they're off, period. Take back your privacy.

sneak 4y ago
What privacy is lost by someone using your front-facing camera when you don't want them to? The microphone is far more important. Pictures of your face are simple and easy to acquire; you give them up willingly every time you walk into a convenience store, airport, bank, or use an ATM. They're not secret and their compromise does not harm you.
- AlbertCory 4y ago
  Is this a serious question? Who is "someone"?

al_be_back 4y ago

a physical switch would be ideal - akin to Ring/Silent feature on iPhones

unscrew5430 4y ago

I wonder whether one would be able to do passive sound reconstruction using the laptops camera, sice it isn't being deactivated. I guess you would only be able to extract sounds lower than ~30Hz if the camera records at 60Hz, but that should be enough to detect steps for example. Not that this has real privacy implications, but I think that would be a fun way of disproving that no sound can be recorded.

krzyk 4y ago

Now, how hard it would be to allow user to have a slider (just like the one on iPhones for DND) to allow hardware disabling of mic?