33 ms·

Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

611 points by Jimmc414 4y ago

InCityDreams 4y ago
Prediction: nobody gets any resolution except the lawyers.
- mc32 4y ago
  Vultures gotta vulture, be they lawyers or the politicians who will swoop in to sympathize with the people once enough concern is registered and magically becomes a touchstone issue.
vorpalhex 4y ago
NBC suit and mask is starting to go from "crazy prepper territory" to sane supply keeping.
- colpabar 4y ago
  We live in a country where everything important is owned and controlled by billionaires or hedge funds who also control the government via bribery. Events like this make me think that it's much, much crazier to trust the government to keep us safe.
  - vorpalhex 4y ago
    That would be great if it were true, unfortunately railway accidents are merely a reality of transporting dangerous chemicals hundreds of times per day. If we want to blame the railroad union not getting any time off or sick leave, there are no secret cabals of the rich - that is purely the white house.
    - colpabar 4y ago
      > If we want to blame the railroad union not getting any time off or sick leave A huge part of what they were striking over were safety concerns. Maximum train lengths, minimum crew sizes (did you know trains can be run by a single person and the government has no issue with that?), and required maintenance were all things the union was fighting for, and were all totally ignored by good old union joe. > there are no secret cabals of the rich lol. lmao even.
      - jasonlotito 4y ago
        > did you know trains can be run by a single person and the government has no issue with that? So, let's add additional regulation and oversight. Let's just make sure we vote in people who want to add additional regulation and oversight. I'm sure American's vote this way... next time.
        colpabar 4y ago
        The "most union friendly president in history" just signed a law making it illegal for the union workers to strike, and forced them to accept the terms they had already rejected. Who the fuck are we supposed to vote for if this is what we get with the people who are supposed to care about regulation?
    - mindslight 4y ago
      > If we want to blame the railroad union not getting any time off or sick leave, there are no secret cabals of the rich - that is purely the white house. The cognitive dissonance required to write these two bits right next to one another... Some blame surely does land on the White House for the union busting. But there would have been no union busting without those cabals of the rich turning the screws to begin with. This divide and ignore half the problem is at the very root of our political decay.
  - dfxm12 4y ago
    The make up of the federal government changes greatly every two years. Our states probably have a similar turnover. This is why it's important to vote, not only in general elections, but also primary elections. Seats shouldn't be safe for incumbents who let this happen or anyone who takes huge donations from the billionaires or hedge funds you're talking about. Edit: I mean: the makeup of our government may change greatly every two years - this is why it is important to vote!
    - cmmeur01 4y ago
      The class of people in the government doesn’t change.
      - dfxm12 4y ago
        Maybe in your district this is true (and some districts are more homogenous than others, for sure), but I'll challenge you to really take a look at the candidates of your next primary election. You'll probably find find meaningful differences between their political philosophies, even if class isn't among them. As an example, though, AOC and Joe Crowley are different in many meaningful ways. As are Connor Lamb and John Fetterman. These are cases where I think people of the political insider class were defeated by challengers that people didn't think fit the proper mold.
    - agency 4y ago
      If the makeup of the federal government changes every two years, and yet nothing ever meaningfully changes, what does that say about the importance of voting?
      - kibwen 4y ago
        If oligarchs spend tens of billions of dollars buying media companies in order to influence how people vote, what does that say about the importance of voting?
        kevviiinn 4y ago
  - TechBro8615 4y ago
    A lot of people living in a small town in Ohio felt the same. Just stay away from the urbanization and cities and the government won't bother you... until a quasi-national freight train comes rolling through your town with a literal chemical dumpster fire in tow.
- passwordoops 4y ago
  That a "Doomsday Preppers: Where are they now?" follow-up sequel has not yet been produced is highly disappointing
  - aftbit 4y ago
    I thought about the one who was worried about a flu pandemic all through 2020. I wonder if she stayed as paranoid, and how long she managed to avoid getting COVID.
fredgrott 4y ago
What is being underplayed: -Same chemical by products as the chemicals stored at the Bhopal disaster -Railroad unions have been warning of this outcome for more than 10 years They will end up suing NS as the town will have to be evacuated again and demolished as they will find that the water-table has been polluted beyond repair.
- NotYourLawyer 4y ago
  Bhopal was methyl isocyanate.
  - downvotetruth 4y ago
    The most concerning chemical when Bhopal occurred was methyl isocyanate. But, although it was the most concerning, many other chemicals are at Bhopal that would be a significant problem in themselves, which are not possibilities for the current topic.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- yabones 4y ago
  ...Not to mention the dispersion along the entire Ohio River watershed, which supplies drinking water for about 5M people.
- rgrieselhuber 4y ago
  Not sure why this is being downvoted.
  - hanniabu 4y ago
    [flagged]
  - pdabbadabba 4y ago
    Because it's extremely misleading. They're invoking the name of the Bhopal disaster even though they seem to know that the actual toxin released in that disaster (methyl isocyanate) is not one of the chemicals on the NS train (or one of their products, as far as I know). Instead, they're talking about the chemicals "stored at" the Bhopal disaster, which may make the comment technically true (I don't know) but very very misleading since those chemicals had nothing to do with the mass death for which the incident is infamous.
perihelions 4y ago
- "On Sunday, the EPA released a list, written by Norfolk Southern, of the toxic chemicals that were in the derailed cars. In addition to vinyl chloride and butyl acrylate, it mentions ethylhexyl acrylate, which can cause headaches, nausea, and respiratory problems in people exposed to it; as well as isobutylene, which can make people dizzy and drowsy." This is anodyne phrasing that omits the lede, which is that this information was not previously disclosed. This expanded "list of toxic chemicals" was not public prior to Sunday. Here's ABC's reporting by way of comparison: "There were more toxic chemicals on train that derailed in Ohio than originally reported, data shows" https://abcnews.go.com/US/toxic-chemicals-train-derailed-ohio-originally-reported-data/story?id=97080179 https://abcnews.go.com/US/toxic-chemicals-train-derailed-ohi... (Another notable diff is that ABC describes ethylhexyl acrylate as a "carcinogen", linking to a CDC page as a cite. NPR's exposition reads differently: "ethylhexyl acrylate, which can cause headaches, nausea, and respiratory problems in people exposed to it;").
- grecy 4y ago
  > which can cause headaches, nausea, and respiratory problems.... can make people dizzy and drowsy I also love this phrasing that talks about the immediate uncomfortable reactions, but makes no mention on the extremely serious long-term implications of exposure. These chemicals won't just make you feel unpleasant in the moment, they'll kill you in the long run.
  - throwaway894345 4y ago
    I mean, I guess "lung cancer" is technically a "respiratory problem" but damn...
  - atoav 4y ago
    This. That's like saying a radiation exposure can make you "see funny lights" — while being technically true, this is not the important thing to underline given a situation where such a danger is out there in the environment. Makes you wonder.
  - chriscappuccio 4y ago
0x008 4y ago
This is basically the plot of “white noise” with Adam driver (on netflix).
- newZWhoDis 4y ago
  Which oddly enough was filmed in the town this happened in… the universe is weird.
  - 0x008 4y ago
    Oh wow. Well that probably means it happened before?
    - yabones 4y ago
      Lots of people saw this coming. This isn't a surprise, but it is horrifying. The safety concerns were a large part of the railroad workers union's complaints a few months ago, which was squashed by the US gov. All the corners have been cut to extract more value for shareholders, and there's nothing left to squeeze out.
      - saul_goodman 4y ago
        Yea, oddly this has not yet bubbled to the surface of this story. Your government at work!
      - gazpachotron 4y ago
        [dead]
      - penneyd 4y ago
        I take it that nobody is thinking sabotage?
  - micromacrofoot 4y ago
    I thought that there were just some people from the town that were extras and it was filmed elsewhere in Ohio?
Kyragem 4y ago
[flagged]
- takoid 4y ago
  Here is the USDOT press release from 2017 on this: https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/news/usdot-announces-intent-repeal-electronically-controlled-pneumatic-brake-mandate https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/news/usdot-announces-intent-repeal... Can anyone speak to whether these electronically controlled pneumatic brakes would have prevented or lessened the severity of this derailment in Ohio?
  - falcolas 4y ago
    The cause was an overheated wheel bearing melting and dislodging the axle, causing a derailment. The overheating was detected, and ignored. The quote is, as I recall, "The next sensor will detect it if it's a problem." Could the electric brakes have helped? Not sure in this specific case. In other cases? Probably. Air brakes are remarkably cool technology (how the valves work still boggles me from time to time) but they are still, in the end, civil war era technology that's probably due for an upgrade.
    - aednichols 4y ago
      I am amused by how much remixing of facts is happening. On Reddit, I learned that the railroad was negligent for not replacing the rails since the Civil War.
      - wil421 4y ago
        That’s because the Anti-American bots and click farms are much more prevalent on Reddit. Not to mention I have a feeling a huge amount of active users are teens and repeat the same BS without checking.
    - slantedview 4y ago
      There were more factors to this derailment than the ones you mention. In recent years train companies have forced longer trains than ever to be driven by a single worker, the sort of thing that would make it hard to notice a train car is on fire. They've also forced train car inspections, the sort of thing that might catch a faulty bearing, to be done faster than ever, in the push for endlessly increasing profits. The workers were raising these and other complaints last year, and our national leaders told them to take a hike, preventing them from striking.
neogodless 4y ago
Related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34783940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34783940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34772687 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34772687 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34759611 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34759611 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34676114 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34676114 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34762965 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34762965 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34770772 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34770772 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34783940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34783940
Workaccount2 4y ago
Before everyone loses there mind, because this story has oddly been on blast 2 weeks after the incident: VC is a gas a room temperature. None of the VC cars were ruptured in the crash. They were vented and ignited by workers to avoid explosion. Burning VC produces carbon oxides, HCl, phosgene, and formaldehyde. HCl, Phosgene become hydrochloric acid in the atmosphere. The total amount of hydrochloric acid this could possibly produce would hardly register in the water table. Formaldehyde would be trace too, similar to fruits and vegetables. EPA site details without the hysteria: https://response.epa.gov/site/site_profile.aspx?site_id=15933 https://response.epa.gov/site/site_profile.aspx?site_id=1593... List of cars in the accident: https://response.epa.gov/sites/15933/files/TRAIN%2032N%20-%20EAST%20PALESTINE%20-%20derail%20list%20Norfolk%20Southern%20document.pdf https://response.epa.gov/sites/15933/files/TRAIN%2032N%20-%2...
- badrequest 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - Workaccount2 4y ago
    There probably already is 250,000 gallons (if it was 10 cars and all 10 converted perfectly to HCl, and all of it went into the water supply) into a water table of, lets be conservative with 10 billion gallons, is 0.00002% concentration or .02ppm Compare this to your stomach, which has an hydrochloric acid concentration of 5000ppm. So yes, I would have no issue with it. All the water you drink mixes with a much higher concentration of HCl every time you drink it. Like I said, their is a hysteria building around this and a total lack of nuance and understanding.
    - throwaheyy 4y ago
      That amount of hydrochloric acid doesn't just magically dilute evenly into the water table in one instant.
      - Workaccount2 4y ago
korroziya 4y ago
Train derailments are the latest conspiracy theory for tinfoil hats right now. I guess food processing plant fires fell out of vogue. "nO oNe iS rEpOrTiNg aBoUt tHiS" cries the conspiracy theorist reporting about the incident using screencaps from news reports.
- lm28469 4y ago
  It's not completely unreported but compare it to the few balloons you guys popped in the last week that made international news it's weird. Especially since these balloons are 99.9% mass hysteria
  - coolbreezetft22 4y ago
    The balloons seemed to get the most coverage and hype on social media / twitter. And now the same social media / twitter is complaining about how the news spent too much time talk about the balloons. Reading the economist on a weekly basis, the balloon story didn't get the same kind of hysterical coverage that I was lead to believe by twitter. I wish people would actually spending time reading instead of just scanning headlines and twitter and drawing strong conclusions and getting angry about it
    - cycomanic 4y ago
      I can tell you the balloon made front-page news for at least the BBC, the guardian, der Spiegel (Germany) and the NZ herald (New Zealand). And I'm not even talking about US news. It definitely was blown way out of proportion in regular media and not only on social media (there is probably an interesting discussion about cause and effect to be had here).
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    One is about global geopolitical games and a possible upcoming war in the next few decades. The other is a local environmental disaster. There's a national angle in pointing out this is exactly what the rail unions told us would happen but is even Fox News reporting on that?
jsonne 4y ago
I've been seeing content on Tiktok where even 100 miles away they're seeing small dead fish which is apparently according to the folks making the videos a massive red flag. In general I grow super weary of companies and the government downplaying these sorts of things. It seems to constantly follow the pattern of people saying "It's not that bad" and then only years later do we actually see the horrific health and environmental effects of these sorts of things play out when it's too late for the folks that have been impacted. I feel so helpless like I wish there was a way to prevent this or create enough real accountability that people actually work to minimize these sorts of things but it never seems to pan out that way. My hunch is that the behind the scenes culprit of "why" this happens is rather banal, insurance covers it so people don't have to change, and it seems like those policies create a ton of moral hazard but I don't know the alternatives. I have no answers here it just feels like yet another weight on the side of the scale that the average person has very little control over their lives even for simple things like not being hurt by toxic chemicals in soil / drinking water. Feels easy to lose even more faith in the institutions that are supposed to protect us all.
- m000 4y ago
  A number of rescued foxes and other wild animals were also affected in the nearby area [1]. [1] https://www.newsweek.com/fox-dies-owners-arms-after-ohio-train-crash-releases-toxic-gas-1780529 https://www.newsweek.com/fox-dies-owners-arms-after-ohio-tra...
  - ASalazarMX 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - adammichaelc 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - joseph_grobbles 4y ago
        [dead]
duffyjp 4y ago
I just watched the HBO Chernobyl miniseries (excellent, btw) and the parallels to the initial lack of action to a huge public health threat is chilling. If there is a carcinogen in the air, get people out of there!
- xadhominemx 4y ago
  There is not a carcinogen in the air. They evacuated the town while they performed the controlled burn, but now the combustion products (not really carcinogens) have dispersed and it’s safe to return.
  - realce 4y ago
    So you would feel fine having your kids live their day-to-day in this area? Would you buy a house 1 mile away from the epicenter?
    - xadhominemx 4y ago
      Ya. It’s easy to measure the contamination and the spilled products have very short half lives in the air/soil. I would probably want to monitor my well water for a little while if I were in the immediate vicinity.
      - lm28469 4y ago
        > It’s easy to measure the contamination Can you elaborate on how you'd do that ? Don't tell me you'd trust the official line, given the track record it's not a viable option Same for well water ? Can you get a same day reading on it ? What would you do in the meantime ? Wouldn't it be too late by the time you get the air results ?
  - lm28469 4y ago
    Just like 911's ground zero was safe ;) nothing to see, move along, uh what cancers are you talking about ?? you must be imagining it
petesergeant 4y ago
[flagged]
- GAN_Game 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - dang 4y ago
    We've banned this account for using HN primarily for political/ideological battle. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- iscrewyou 4y ago
  Early February? We are barely halfway through February now. Phrasing early February makes it seem like it wasn’t in the last two weeks!
- realce 4y ago
  So you're saying that being concerned with the massive corporate attack on the health of innocent people is actually Chinese propaganda? And one of your "sources" is a post liked 3k times in a nation of over 1 billion people?
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    And the fact that it was "liked" by Chinese people silently used to imply that it's obviously evil. It may be that Chinese people are not stupid, and that the Chinese government has no desire to censor the smart things that Chinese people say that are also supportive of China.
- whamlastxmas 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - commandlinefan 4y ago
Julesman 4y ago
I see a lot of these responses starting with "The reason." I don't see many people talking about institutional bias. I don't see a lot of people talking about this disaster getting no coverage while the media is stuck on shooting down balloons. I don't see many people talking about the fact that if this was anywhere close to wealthy people that it would have been headline news. I don't see many talking about the absolutely soulless response of everyone responsible. I don't see many talking about historical precedents that paint a clear picture of what is likely happening. I don't see many talking about how the best coverage of the event has been on Tiktok and that people on the ground might have something valuable to report. This is NOT s trivial thing in any way. This is not a wait and see thing. This is a total disaster that will impact the health of people in the area for generations. And without any pushback the terrible people responsible well likely just get away with it.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > don't see a lot of people talking about this disaster getting no coverage Oh my god this is the only thing people are talking about. Please don’t do this. Let’s talk about the actual disaster instead of spinning up another useless whirlpool of meta-debate.
  - johndevor 4y ago
    The NYT does not have this barely at all. There should be a giant picture of the mushroom cloud on their front page to reflect the severity (potential or real) of the situation. It's shameful.
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > should be a giant picture of the mushroom cloud on their front page to reflect the severity (potential or real) of the situation It was front page on Bloomberg. I admit I didn’t click on it. To the degree this is of urgent national concern, it’s in a rail safety bill we have months to debate.
      - 4y ago
smm11 4y ago
[flagged]
schainks 4y ago
If you're in the Ohio river basin, I recommend you install reverse osmosis and carbon filters on your tap water, which will effectively filter nearly all vinyl chloride. Ventilate rooms where you shower before / afterwords to ensure contaminated vapor doesn't stick around.
- aftbit 4y ago
  Cincinnati Water Works uses granular activated carbon filtration already, and plans to shut the Ohio River water intakes during the period of maximum contamination (anticipated some time next week). Given that water demand is below peak in the winter (nobody watering yards or washing cars etc), the water in towers and reservoirs will likely be enough to last through the worst part of the plume. I believe they have 3 days of water during peak times, so likely more like 5. Source: chatting with a waterworks engineer after a tour of antique steam engine water pumps. They ran into the 60s! https://cincinnatitriplesteam.org/ https://cincinnatitriplesteam.org/
ck2 4y ago
This happens every day around every fracking site on a smaller scale but add them all up and it's even bigger than the train. Oddly no-one seems to care about that. If the train was carrying gasoline would people say "oh well what can you do, we need gas"
logn 4y ago
I've had a hard time finding any information about the geography of impacted areas (air and water) other than sporadic reports on water testing.
kolanos 4y ago
Still don't see this story anywhere in my Google News feed.
davesque 4y ago
This might be an unpopular opinion, but the speed at which this story has overtaken social media has made me skeptical. That coupled with the fact that the story practically doesn't exist in mainstream media. And in this case I just don't buy the whole "lamestream" media narrative. The mainstream media was all over the water crisis in Flint, Michigan. There's no reason they wouldn't be interested in giving more coverage to this story if it were worth covering. Something about this story's rise to fame has seemed really inorganic to me.
- vuln 4y ago
  > The mainstream media was all over the water crisis in Flint, Michigan. Different victims and different person/people/organizations/administrations to blame.
- xadhominemx 4y ago
  It went viral on TikTok. Was that entirely organic? Or did the Chinese government throw some tinder on the fire? It’s pretty bad that they have the capability.
  - davesque 4y ago
    Not sure if you misread it but I said it was inorganic.
    - xadhominemx 4y ago
      Yes I was agreeing with you. It’s very possible it was inorganic.
- legitster 4y ago
  It's not a conspiracy. The amplified version of the story originated from Chinese state media as a direct response to the balloon story: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-64633990 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-64633990 > At the same time, state media has begun focusing on a different narrative - a derailed train carrying hazardous material in Ohio. > Though the incident happened in early February, Chinese news outlets are now devoting significant coverage on the topic, citing US media reports. US officials have performed a controlled release of toxic chemicals from the train to prevent contamination. > It has since become a significant talking point on social media. On Weibo, China's equivalent to Twitter, the main Ohio train hashtag has been viewed more than 690 million times since the weekend, with more than 40 hashtags created on the topic. > Many Chinese netizens have expressed worry that the incident would turn into a global environmental crisis, and anger over the relatively sparser coverage of the train incident in US media compared to the balloons. > "Turns out the Wandering Balloon was being used to take the heat for Ohio," a post liked nearly 3,000 times reads.
cs702 4y ago
More and more, this is starting to look like a major f#ck-up by Norfolk Southern. Given the geographical extent of the derailment's impact (well over 100+ miles, encompassing Pittsburgh and surrounding areas), it's not hard to imagine how it will lead to the kind of class-action lawsuit that can hobble or even bankrupt the entire company. Ugly, ugly, ugly.
BLO716 4y ago
I'm still trying to find a reliable boots-on-ground in people's face news journalism. Anyone have boots on group stuff?
- fragmede 4y ago
  This guy has been giving daily updates https://www.tiktok.com/@nickdrom https://www.tiktok.com/@nickdrom
ifaxmycodetok8s 4y ago
I grew up ~12 miles from the incident. My family still lives there. To add insult to injury, the local Shell plant is also doing a safety burn right now. https://twitter.com/BreatheProject/status/1625255548630233117 https://twitter.com/BreatheProject/status/162525554863023311...
sam0x17 4y ago
This is a really glaring example of mismanagement on the federal government's part. Apparently the number of staff who maintain the rails was cut some time before the incident, and this is the main reason the rails were not properly maintained and this accident was allowed to happen. Meanwhile the transportation department is still celebrating their accomplishments and acting like we don't have a huge disaster on our hands https://www.newsweek.com/pete-buttigieg-ignores-ohio-train-derailment-transportation-celebration-1780918 https://www.newsweek.com/pete-buttigieg-ignores-ohio-train-d...
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  Why is Federal government at fault, and not, you know, the rail company that owns the railroads and collects the revenues?
  - shawn-butler 4y ago
    In my mind because Biden/Buttigieg had Congress impose a labor contract to prevent a strike a few months ago and rail safety due to labor cuts by these same rail companies was one of the issues workers were concerned about?
    - sam0x17 4y ago
      Yeah anything short of meeting the strikers demands is insane. I still can't believe that's not what went down. These are possibly some of the most important workers in the country, and they can't even get sick days.
      - LarryMullins 4y ago
        It sure does seem weird that something as fundamentally efficient as trains are supposedly so hard to run economically that treating workers properly just isn't economically feasible. Of course it is feasible, but the transit corps are only interested in maximizing profit and the government backs them up. They could run these trains with 10x the crew, with full top-tier benefits, and still turn a sustainable profit. But right now these companies are being run as paperclip maximizers and merely sustainable profit isn't good enough for them.
steeleyespan 4y ago
Another 4Chan conspiracy proven to be false! Toxic fumes are proven by science to be safe and effective. The dose never leaves the muscle tissue.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- xadhominemx 4y ago
  > The dose never leaves the muscle tissue. Yes it does, quite rapidly in fact.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
bingo00 4y ago
Maybe I missed it but does anyone know where these things were going/delivered to? What's the use for chemicals like this? I can't seem to find any info.
- fragmede 4y ago
  Vinyl chloride (VC) is used to make polyvinyl chloride (PVC), an inert plastic material used in all sorts of things, but is well known as the PVC in PVC pipes which are used everywhere.
panick21_ 4y ago
I'm not one that usually advocates for nationalization, but with these rail companies, this should be done. For multiple reason: - These companies make absurdly huge profit that could be reinvested into the network to improve the network for everybody (electrification, passenger transport). And these are not some complex tech companies that the government couldn't operate. - These companies are blocking passenger travel and don't care that they are doing it, all other approaches to prevent this have failed. With the current structure there is no change for the US ever to develop a serious passenger rail infrastructure, either inter-city, regional or S-Bahn style. Many local government and states might want to do more train stuff but currently don't feel empowered to do so any trying is often not even worth it. - They are removing anything not absurdly profitable, shifting things from rail to trucks. And then trucks use government funded road and highway infrastructure instead. Its just bad intensives. - Current companies have a bad track record and there are way to many derailments, and this is serious strategic concern for logistics that the government should really take better care off. Just for reference, with the current profit of these companies, the US could easily executed a systematic program of electrification, track and signaling upgrades. Vastly improving both the amount of cargo that can be transported and the passenger that can be transported, and doing so in a much more substantial way. While trains are energy efficient, and its better then trucks, currently they use very dirty locos with no plan of changing it (some mild greenwashing but nothing real). Some of these train companies are literally some of the largest individual users of fossil fuels (behind things like DoD) and no plan for change anytime soon. It would also make transporting cargo from city-to-city easier if these cities are currently in the domain of one of the competitor companies. This is a real problem for shipping. If the US wants to seriously drive modal share of cargo and passenger transport to green energy efficient trains, its the only way I can see it gone work.
- winrid 4y ago
  But how do you nationalize an entire industry?
  - JetSpiegel 4y ago
    If only the president's party controlled both houses of Congress, they could have passed a bill and he would have signed it. An hypothetical situation, when this was being discussed about 3 months ago...
TurkishPoptart 4y ago
They call it a derailment, but isn't "explosion" a better word choice? Seems like downplaying.
- legitster 4y ago
  The "explosion" was part of an intentional burn as part of the prescribed cleanup plan: https://www.npr.org/2023/02/06/1154760911/ohio-train-derailment https://www.npr.org/2023/02/06/1154760911/ohio-train-derailm...
olivermarks 4y ago
Where are the environmentalists? This is a huge catastrophe that will have long term repercussions across a wide area. Are all the climate change organizations/lobbyists actually corporate sponsored and don't want to rock the boat? There is little information on why so many trains with hazardous cargos are derailing in north America. This could be sabotage by malevolent actors.
- xadhominemx 4y ago
  > This is a huge catastrophe that will have long term repercussions across a wide area. No it’s not, and no it won’t.
  - manuelabeledo 4y ago
    Care to share why you think that way?
    - xadhominemx 4y ago
      The chemicals are not very toxic and they have low environmental and biological persistence and they were almost all destroyed in the controlled fire
      - olivermarks 4y ago
        That's a glass half full perspective! How come so many fish and animals are still dying or are dead in the area?
        xadhominemx 4y ago
        Fish are very sensitive
nabla9 4y ago
Legislation passed under President Obama required trains carrying hazardous flammable materials to have ECP brakes. The law was rescinded in 2017 by the Trump administration.
- fragmede 4y ago
  > Electronically controlled pneumatic (ECP) brakes are a type of modern railway braking system which offer improved performance compared to traditional railway air brakes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronically_controlled_pneumatic_brakes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronically_controlled_pneu...
- celdon25 4y ago
  [flagged]
whyage 4y ago
Health concerns also grow in East Palestine
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
fifteenforty 4y ago
Weird comment about masks not working for vinyl chloride. Whilst it’s true that a particulate filtering mask (N95) isn’t enough, you can definitely get some protection from an organic vapour cartridge fitted to a reusable respirator. See https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/regulations/standardnumber/1910/1910.1017 https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/regulations/standardnumber/19...
u8080 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dioxins_and_dioxin-like_compounds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dioxins_and_dioxin-like_compou... >PCDD/F-compounds were never synthesized for any purpose, except for small quantities for scientific research.[12] Small amounts of PCDD/Fs are formed whenever organics, oxygen and chlorine are available at suitable temperatures.[1] This is augmented by metal catalysts such as copper. The optimal temperature range is 400 °C (752 °F) to 700 °C (1,292 °F). This means that formation is highest when organic material is burned in less-than-optimal conditions such as open fires, building fires, domestic fireplaces, and poorly operated and/or designed solid waste incinerators.[3] Historically, municipal and medical waste incineration was the most important source of PCDD/Fs.
gaoshan 4y ago
The train that was carrying all of this passed through Cleveland, Ohio, just prior to this accident. Imagine the fallout if this had happened around a population of hundreds of thousands of people?
lynguist 4y ago
When I hear Ohio and trains I immediately think of the huge federal grants for building a higher speed rail line from Cleveland over Columbus to Cincinnati that were already granted. The same was granted for Wisconsin and Florida. And one by one their governors refused to use these grants to build the infrastructure, and one by one the federal grants were reassigned, until in the end Florida got 2.3 billion dollars for building a high-speed rail line Miami-Orlando-Tampa. That was also sabotaged by its governor. But because such a rail line is so incredibly economically effective a private company started to build it anyhow, just at lower speeds. I’m still flabbergasted about this.
- enriquec 4y ago
  so... the grants were unnecessary? Also, how can someone see this catastrophe and still want to go with trains -- 200+ year old tech that is clearly environmentally destructive, doesn't solve last-mile, and can't be parallelized or re-routed, or even rescheduled easily
  - manuelabeledo 4y ago
    > Also, how can someone see this catastrophe and still want to go with trains Perhaps because most of the industrialised world run tens of thousands of freight and passenger trains every day. What happened in Ohio is not an inherent issue with trains.
  - dieortin 4y ago
    It’s not more environmentally destructive than any of the alternatives, quite the opposite actually. And it’s the most efficient way to transport cargo and passengers across land.
mcguire 4y ago
Also, https://www.wkbn.com/news/local-news/east-palestine-train-derailment/north-lima-woman-finds-chickens-dead-tuesday-questions-chemical-release-from-train/ https://www.wkbn.com/news/local-news/east-palestine-train-de... https://www.wkbn.com/news/local-news/east-palestine-train-derailment/health-concerns-mounting-as-animals-become-sick-after-train-derailment/ https://www.wkbn.com/news/local-news/east-palestine-train-de...
dang 4y ago
Related: Ohio train derailment: environmental disaster quietly unfolding - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34783940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34783940 - Feb 2023 (300 comments) Ask HN: Any HNers have air quality sensors near-ish 'East Palistine, Ohio'? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34783664 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34783664 - Feb 2023 (11 comments) Ohio vinyl chloride accident summary - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34781184 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34781184 - Feb 2023 (7 comments) Ohio catastrophe is ‘wake-up call’ to dangers of deadly train derailments - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34773513 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34773513 - Feb 2023 (230 comments) Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34772687 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34772687 - Feb 2023 (212 comments) Health concerns mounting as animals become sick after train derailment - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34758525 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34758525 - Feb 2023 (128 comments)
legohead 4y ago
Saw an interesting video about Precision Scheduled Railroading[1] saying it is related to this accident. Not sure how accurate it is, but definitely worth checking out. I'd never heard of it. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2-fdkGsnf4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2-fdkGsnf4
mike50 4y ago
I can't believe that the supposedly internet savvy crowd here is citing CNN, USA Today and Murdoch mouthpieces for poor news coverage. CNN and USA today are literally rewritten Wire service or newspaper articles.
NCSayre 4y ago
As an OSHA Train-A-Trainer what I'm seeing in the Media is making me cringe. Why aren't the workers wearing chemical respirators? They need to check OSHA Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) Standards so they're protected along with their families. Why isn't OSHA Region 5 dealing with this situation? And lastly, why haven't the citizens of Palestine, OH been evacuated as of yet. This is a serious situation some of these chemicals are carcinogens and cause their lungs, eyes, skin, and even in the long run cause various cancers. Please evacuate as soon as possible before these chemicals affect your health. Here's the OSHA Region 5 Cleveland Office Number (216)447-4194. Stay Healthy and Be Safe.
TurkishPoptart 4y ago
It's odd how silent out Transportation Secretary is about this. A cursory review of his twitter page is just gushing reports of important meetings and platitudes about "building back better". Some accountability or semblance of investigation would be appreciated.

611 points by Jimmc414 4y ago

InCityDreams 4y ago

Prediction: nobody gets any resolution except the lawyers.

mc32 4y ago
Vultures gotta vulture, be they lawyers or the politicians who will swoop in to sympathize with the people once enough concern is registered and magically becomes a touchstone issue.

vorpalhex 4y ago

NBC suit and mask is starting to go from "crazy prepper territory" to sane supply keeping.

colpabar 4y ago
We live in a country where everything important is owned and controlled by billionaires or hedge funds who also control the government via bribery. Events like this make me think that it's much, much crazier to trust the government to keep us safe.
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  That would be great if it were true, unfortunately railway accidents are merely a reality of transporting dangerous chemicals hundreds of times per day. If we want to blame the railroad union not getting any time off or sick leave, there are no secret cabals of the rich - that is purely the white house.
  - colpabar 4y ago
    > If we want to blame the railroad union not getting any time off or sick leave A huge part of what they were striking over were safety concerns. Maximum train lengths, minimum crew sizes (did you know trains can be run by a single person and the government has no issue with that?), and required maintenance were all things the union was fighting for, and were all totally ignored by good old union joe. > there are no secret cabals of the rich lol. lmao even.
    - jasonlotito 4y ago
      > did you know trains can be run by a single person and the government has no issue with that? So, let's add additional regulation and oversight. Let's just make sure we vote in people who want to add additional regulation and oversight. I'm sure American's vote this way... next time.
      - colpabar 4y ago
        The "most union friendly president in history" just signed a law making it illegal for the union workers to strike, and forced them to accept the terms they had already rejected. Who the fuck are we supposed to vote for if this is what we get with the people who are supposed to care about regulation?
  - mindslight 4y ago
    > If we want to blame the railroad union not getting any time off or sick leave, there are no secret cabals of the rich - that is purely the white house. The cognitive dissonance required to write these two bits right next to one another... Some blame surely does land on the White House for the union busting. But there would have been no union busting without those cabals of the rich turning the screws to begin with. This divide and ignore half the problem is at the very root of our political decay.
- dfxm12 4y ago
  The make up of the federal government changes greatly every two years. Our states probably have a similar turnover. This is why it's important to vote, not only in general elections, but also primary elections. Seats shouldn't be safe for incumbents who let this happen or anyone who takes huge donations from the billionaires or hedge funds you're talking about. Edit: I mean: the makeup of our government may change greatly every two years - this is why it is important to vote!
  - cmmeur01 4y ago
    The class of people in the government doesn’t change.
    - dfxm12 4y ago
      Maybe in your district this is true (and some districts are more homogenous than others, for sure), but I'll challenge you to really take a look at the candidates of your next primary election. You'll probably find find meaningful differences between their political philosophies, even if class isn't among them. As an example, though, AOC and Joe Crowley are different in many meaningful ways. As are Connor Lamb and John Fetterman. These are cases where I think people of the political insider class were defeated by challengers that people didn't think fit the proper mold.
  - agency 4y ago
    If the makeup of the federal government changes every two years, and yet nothing ever meaningfully changes, what does that say about the importance of voting?
    - kibwen 4y ago
      If oligarchs spend tens of billions of dollars buying media companies in order to influence how people vote, what does that say about the importance of voting?
      - kevviiinn 4y ago
- TechBro8615 4y ago
  A lot of people living in a small town in Ohio felt the same. Just stay away from the urbanization and cities and the government won't bother you... until a quasi-national freight train comes rolling through your town with a literal chemical dumpster fire in tow.
passwordoops 4y ago
That a "Doomsday Preppers: Where are they now?" follow-up sequel has not yet been produced is highly disappointing
- aftbit 4y ago
  I thought about the one who was worried about a flu pandemic all through 2020. I wonder if she stayed as paranoid, and how long she managed to avoid getting COVID.

fredgrott 4y ago

What is being underplayed: -Same chemical by products as the chemicals stored at the Bhopal disaster -Railroad unions have been warning of this outcome for more than 10 years They will end up suing NS as the town will have to be evacuated again and demolished as they will find that the water-table has been polluted beyond repair.

NotYourLawyer 4y ago
Bhopal was methyl isocyanate.
- downvotetruth 4y ago
  The most concerning chemical when Bhopal occurred was methyl isocyanate. But, although it was the most concerning, many other chemicals are at Bhopal that would be a significant problem in themselves, which are not possibilities for the current topic.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
yabones 4y ago
...Not to mention the dispersion along the entire Ohio River watershed, which supplies drinking water for about 5M people.
rgrieselhuber 4y ago
Not sure why this is being downvoted.
- hanniabu 4y ago
  [flagged]
- pdabbadabba 4y ago
  Because it's extremely misleading. They're invoking the name of the Bhopal disaster even though they seem to know that the actual toxin released in that disaster (methyl isocyanate) is not one of the chemicals on the NS train (or one of their products, as far as I know). Instead, they're talking about the chemicals "stored at" the Bhopal disaster, which may make the comment technically true (I don't know) but very very misleading since those chemicals had nothing to do with the mass death for which the incident is infamous.

perihelions 4y ago

- "On Sunday, the EPA released a list, written by Norfolk Southern, of the toxic chemicals that were in the derailed cars. In addition to vinyl chloride and butyl acrylate, it mentions ethylhexyl acrylate, which can cause headaches, nausea, and respiratory problems in people exposed to it; as well as isobutylene, which can make people dizzy and drowsy." This is anodyne phrasing that omits the lede, which is that this information was not previously disclosed. This expanded "list of toxic chemicals" was not public prior to Sunday. Here's ABC's reporting by way of comparison: "There were more toxic chemicals on train that derailed in Ohio than originally reported, data shows" https://abcnews.go.com/US/toxic-chemicals-train-derailed-ohio-originally-reported-data/story?id=97080179 https://abcnews.go.com/US/toxic-chemicals-train-derailed-ohi... (Another notable diff is that ABC describes ethylhexyl acrylate as a "carcinogen", linking to a CDC page as a cite. NPR's exposition reads differently: "ethylhexyl acrylate, which can cause headaches, nausea, and respiratory problems in people exposed to it;").

grecy 4y ago
> which can cause headaches, nausea, and respiratory problems.... can make people dizzy and drowsy I also love this phrasing that talks about the immediate uncomfortable reactions, but makes no mention on the extremely serious long-term implications of exposure. These chemicals won't just make you feel unpleasant in the moment, they'll kill you in the long run.
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  I mean, I guess "lung cancer" is technically a "respiratory problem" but damn...
- atoav 4y ago
  This. That's like saying a radiation exposure can make you "see funny lights" — while being technically true, this is not the important thing to underline given a situation where such a danger is out there in the environment. Makes you wonder.
- chriscappuccio 4y ago

0x008 4y ago

This is basically the plot of “white noise” with Adam driver (on netflix).

newZWhoDis 4y ago
Which oddly enough was filmed in the town this happened in… the universe is weird.
- 0x008 4y ago
  Oh wow. Well that probably means it happened before?
  - yabones 4y ago
    Lots of people saw this coming. This isn't a surprise, but it is horrifying. The safety concerns were a large part of the railroad workers union's complaints a few months ago, which was squashed by the US gov. All the corners have been cut to extract more value for shareholders, and there's nothing left to squeeze out.
    - saul_goodman 4y ago
      Yea, oddly this has not yet bubbled to the surface of this story. Your government at work!
    - gazpachotron 4y ago
      [dead]
    - penneyd 4y ago
      I take it that nobody is thinking sabotage?
- micromacrofoot 4y ago
  I thought that there were just some people from the town that were extras and it was filmed elsewhere in Ohio?

Kyragem 4y ago

[flagged]

takoid 4y ago
Here is the USDOT press release from 2017 on this: https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/news/usdot-announces-intent-repeal-electronically-controlled-pneumatic-brake-mandate https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/news/usdot-announces-intent-repeal... Can anyone speak to whether these electronically controlled pneumatic brakes would have prevented or lessened the severity of this derailment in Ohio?
- falcolas 4y ago
  The cause was an overheated wheel bearing melting and dislodging the axle, causing a derailment. The overheating was detected, and ignored. The quote is, as I recall, "The next sensor will detect it if it's a problem." Could the electric brakes have helped? Not sure in this specific case. In other cases? Probably. Air brakes are remarkably cool technology (how the valves work still boggles me from time to time) but they are still, in the end, civil war era technology that's probably due for an upgrade.
  - aednichols 4y ago
    I am amused by how much remixing of facts is happening. On Reddit, I learned that the railroad was negligent for not replacing the rails since the Civil War.
    - wil421 4y ago
      That’s because the Anti-American bots and click farms are much more prevalent on Reddit. Not to mention I have a feeling a huge amount of active users are teens and repeat the same BS without checking.
  - slantedview 4y ago
    There were more factors to this derailment than the ones you mention. In recent years train companies have forced longer trains than ever to be driven by a single worker, the sort of thing that would make it hard to notice a train car is on fire. They've also forced train car inspections, the sort of thing that might catch a faulty bearing, to be done faster than ever, in the push for endlessly increasing profits. The workers were raising these and other complaints last year, and our national leaders told them to take a hike, preventing them from striking.

neogodless 4y ago

Related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34783940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34783940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34772687 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34772687 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34759611 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34759611 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34676114 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34676114 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34762965 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34762965 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34770772 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34770772 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34783940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34783940

Workaccount2 4y ago

Before everyone loses there mind, because this story has oddly been on blast 2 weeks after the incident: VC is a gas a room temperature. None of the VC cars were ruptured in the crash. They were vented and ignited by workers to avoid explosion. Burning VC produces carbon oxides, HCl, phosgene, and formaldehyde. HCl, Phosgene become hydrochloric acid in the atmosphere. The total amount of hydrochloric acid this could possibly produce would hardly register in the water table. Formaldehyde would be trace too, similar to fruits and vegetables. EPA site details without the hysteria: https://response.epa.gov/site/site_profile.aspx?site_id=15933 https://response.epa.gov/site/site_profile.aspx?site_id=1593... List of cars in the accident: https://response.epa.gov/sites/15933/files/TRAIN%2032N%20-%20EAST%20PALESTINE%20-%20derail%20list%20Norfolk%20Southern%20document.pdf https://response.epa.gov/sites/15933/files/TRAIN%2032N%20-%2...

badrequest 4y ago
[flagged]
- Workaccount2 4y ago
  There probably already is 250,000 gallons (if it was 10 cars and all 10 converted perfectly to HCl, and all of it went into the water supply) into a water table of, lets be conservative with 10 billion gallons, is 0.00002% concentration or .02ppm Compare this to your stomach, which has an hydrochloric acid concentration of 5000ppm. So yes, I would have no issue with it. All the water you drink mixes with a much higher concentration of HCl every time you drink it. Like I said, their is a hysteria building around this and a total lack of nuance and understanding.
  - throwaheyy 4y ago
    That amount of hydrochloric acid doesn't just magically dilute evenly into the water table in one instant.
    - Workaccount2 4y ago

korroziya 4y ago

Train derailments are the latest conspiracy theory for tinfoil hats right now. I guess food processing plant fires fell out of vogue. "nO oNe iS rEpOrTiNg aBoUt tHiS" cries the conspiracy theorist reporting about the incident using screencaps from news reports.

lm28469 4y ago
It's not completely unreported but compare it to the few balloons you guys popped in the last week that made international news it's weird. Especially since these balloons are 99.9% mass hysteria
- coolbreezetft22 4y ago
  The balloons seemed to get the most coverage and hype on social media / twitter. And now the same social media / twitter is complaining about how the news spent too much time talk about the balloons. Reading the economist on a weekly basis, the balloon story didn't get the same kind of hysterical coverage that I was lead to believe by twitter. I wish people would actually spending time reading instead of just scanning headlines and twitter and drawing strong conclusions and getting angry about it
  - cycomanic 4y ago
    I can tell you the balloon made front-page news for at least the BBC, the guardian, der Spiegel (Germany) and the NZ herald (New Zealand). And I'm not even talking about US news. It definitely was blown way out of proportion in regular media and not only on social media (there is probably an interesting discussion about cause and effect to be had here).
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  One is about global geopolitical games and a possible upcoming war in the next few decades. The other is a local environmental disaster. There's a national angle in pointing out this is exactly what the rail unions told us would happen but is even Fox News reporting on that?

jsonne 4y ago

I've been seeing content on Tiktok where even 100 miles away they're seeing small dead fish which is apparently according to the folks making the videos a massive red flag. In general I grow super weary of companies and the government downplaying these sorts of things. It seems to constantly follow the pattern of people saying "It's not that bad" and then only years later do we actually see the horrific health and environmental effects of these sorts of things play out when it's too late for the folks that have been impacted. I feel so helpless like I wish there was a way to prevent this or create enough real accountability that people actually work to minimize these sorts of things but it never seems to pan out that way. My hunch is that the behind the scenes culprit of "why" this happens is rather banal, insurance covers it so people don't have to change, and it seems like those policies create a ton of moral hazard but I don't know the alternatives. I have no answers here it just feels like yet another weight on the side of the scale that the average person has very little control over their lives even for simple things like not being hurt by toxic chemicals in soil / drinking water. Feels easy to lose even more faith in the institutions that are supposed to protect us all.

m000 4y ago
A number of rescued foxes and other wild animals were also affected in the nearby area [1]. [1] https://www.newsweek.com/fox-dies-owners-arms-after-ohio-train-crash-releases-toxic-gas-1780529 https://www.newsweek.com/fox-dies-owners-arms-after-ohio-tra...
- ASalazarMX 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - adammichaelc 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - joseph_grobbles 4y ago
      [dead]

duffyjp 4y ago

I just watched the HBO Chernobyl miniseries (excellent, btw) and the parallels to the initial lack of action to a huge public health threat is chilling. If there is a carcinogen in the air, get people out of there!

xadhominemx 4y ago
There is not a carcinogen in the air. They evacuated the town while they performed the controlled burn, but now the combustion products (not really carcinogens) have dispersed and it’s safe to return.
- realce 4y ago
  So you would feel fine having your kids live their day-to-day in this area? Would you buy a house 1 mile away from the epicenter?
  - xadhominemx 4y ago
    Ya. It’s easy to measure the contamination and the spilled products have very short half lives in the air/soil. I would probably want to monitor my well water for a little while if I were in the immediate vicinity.
    - lm28469 4y ago
      > It’s easy to measure the contamination Can you elaborate on how you'd do that ? Don't tell me you'd trust the official line, given the track record it's not a viable option Same for well water ? Can you get a same day reading on it ? What would you do in the meantime ? Wouldn't it be too late by the time you get the air results ?
- lm28469 4y ago
  Just like 911's ground zero was safe ;) nothing to see, move along, uh what cancers are you talking about ?? you must be imagining it

petesergeant 4y ago

[flagged]

GAN_Game 4y ago
[flagged]
- dang 4y ago
  We've banned this account for using HN primarily for political/ideological battle. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
iscrewyou 4y ago
Early February? We are barely halfway through February now. Phrasing early February makes it seem like it wasn’t in the last two weeks!
realce 4y ago
So you're saying that being concerned with the massive corporate attack on the health of innocent people is actually Chinese propaganda? And one of your "sources" is a post liked 3k times in a nation of over 1 billion people?
- pessimizer 4y ago
  And the fact that it was "liked" by Chinese people silently used to imply that it's obviously evil. It may be that Chinese people are not stupid, and that the Chinese government has no desire to censor the smart things that Chinese people say that are also supportive of China.
whamlastxmas 4y ago
[flagged]
- commandlinefan 4y ago

Julesman 4y ago

I see a lot of these responses starting with "The reason." I don't see many people talking about institutional bias. I don't see a lot of people talking about this disaster getting no coverage while the media is stuck on shooting down balloons. I don't see many people talking about the fact that if this was anywhere close to wealthy people that it would have been headline news. I don't see many talking about the absolutely soulless response of everyone responsible. I don't see many talking about historical precedents that paint a clear picture of what is likely happening. I don't see many talking about how the best coverage of the event has been on Tiktok and that people on the ground might have something valuable to report. This is NOT s trivial thing in any way. This is not a wait and see thing. This is a total disaster that will impact the health of people in the area for generations. And without any pushback the terrible people responsible well likely just get away with it.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> don't see a lot of people talking about this disaster getting no coverage Oh my god this is the only thing people are talking about. Please don’t do this. Let’s talk about the actual disaster instead of spinning up another useless whirlpool of meta-debate.
- johndevor 4y ago
  The NYT does not have this barely at all. There should be a giant picture of the mushroom cloud on their front page to reflect the severity (potential or real) of the situation. It's shameful.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > should be a giant picture of the mushroom cloud on their front page to reflect the severity (potential or real) of the situation It was front page on Bloomberg. I admit I didn’t click on it. To the degree this is of urgent national concern, it’s in a rail safety bill we have months to debate.
    - 4y ago

smm11 4y ago

[flagged]

schainks 4y ago

If you're in the Ohio river basin, I recommend you install reverse osmosis and carbon filters on your tap water, which will effectively filter nearly all vinyl chloride. Ventilate rooms where you shower before / afterwords to ensure contaminated vapor doesn't stick around.

aftbit 4y ago
Cincinnati Water Works uses granular activated carbon filtration already, and plans to shut the Ohio River water intakes during the period of maximum contamination (anticipated some time next week). Given that water demand is below peak in the winter (nobody watering yards or washing cars etc), the water in towers and reservoirs will likely be enough to last through the worst part of the plume. I believe they have 3 days of water during peak times, so likely more like 5. Source: chatting with a waterworks engineer after a tour of antique steam engine water pumps. They ran into the 60s! https://cincinnatitriplesteam.org/ https://cincinnatitriplesteam.org/

ck2 4y ago

This happens every day around every fracking site on a smaller scale but add them all up and it's even bigger than the train. Oddly no-one seems to care about that. If the train was carrying gasoline would people say "oh well what can you do, we need gas"

logn 4y ago

I've had a hard time finding any information about the geography of impacted areas (air and water) other than sporadic reports on water testing.

kolanos 4y ago

Still don't see this story anywhere in my Google News feed.

davesque 4y ago

This might be an unpopular opinion, but the speed at which this story has overtaken social media has made me skeptical. That coupled with the fact that the story practically doesn't exist in mainstream media. And in this case I just don't buy the whole "lamestream" media narrative. The mainstream media was all over the water crisis in Flint, Michigan. There's no reason they wouldn't be interested in giving more coverage to this story if it were worth covering. Something about this story's rise to fame has seemed really inorganic to me.

vuln 4y ago
> The mainstream media was all over the water crisis in Flint, Michigan. Different victims and different person/people/organizations/administrations to blame.
xadhominemx 4y ago
It went viral on TikTok. Was that entirely organic? Or did the Chinese government throw some tinder on the fire? It’s pretty bad that they have the capability.
- davesque 4y ago
  Not sure if you misread it but I said it was inorganic.
  - xadhominemx 4y ago
    Yes I was agreeing with you. It’s very possible it was inorganic.
legitster 4y ago
It's not a conspiracy. The amplified version of the story originated from Chinese state media as a direct response to the balloon story: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-64633990 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-64633990 > At the same time, state media has begun focusing on a different narrative - a derailed train carrying hazardous material in Ohio. > Though the incident happened in early February, Chinese news outlets are now devoting significant coverage on the topic, citing US media reports. US officials have performed a controlled release of toxic chemicals from the train to prevent contamination. > It has since become a significant talking point on social media. On Weibo, China's equivalent to Twitter, the main Ohio train hashtag has been viewed more than 690 million times since the weekend, with more than 40 hashtags created on the topic. > Many Chinese netizens have expressed worry that the incident would turn into a global environmental crisis, and anger over the relatively sparser coverage of the train incident in US media compared to the balloons. > "Turns out the Wandering Balloon was being used to take the heat for Ohio," a post liked nearly 3,000 times reads.

cs702 4y ago

More and more, this is starting to look like a major f#ck-up by Norfolk Southern. Given the geographical extent of the derailment's impact (well over 100+ miles, encompassing Pittsburgh and surrounding areas), it's not hard to imagine how it will lead to the kind of class-action lawsuit that can hobble or even bankrupt the entire company. Ugly, ugly, ugly.

BLO716 4y ago

I'm still trying to find a reliable boots-on-ground in people's face news journalism. Anyone have boots on group stuff?

fragmede 4y ago
This guy has been giving daily updates https://www.tiktok.com/@nickdrom https://www.tiktok.com/@nickdrom

ifaxmycodetok8s 4y ago

I grew up ~12 miles from the incident. My family still lives there. To add insult to injury, the local Shell plant is also doing a safety burn right now. https://twitter.com/BreatheProject/status/1625255548630233117 https://twitter.com/BreatheProject/status/162525554863023311...

sam0x17 4y ago

This is a really glaring example of mismanagement on the federal government's part. Apparently the number of staff who maintain the rails was cut some time before the incident, and this is the main reason the rails were not properly maintained and this accident was allowed to happen. Meanwhile the transportation department is still celebrating their accomplishments and acting like we don't have a huge disaster on our hands https://www.newsweek.com/pete-buttigieg-ignores-ohio-train-derailment-transportation-celebration-1780918 https://www.newsweek.com/pete-buttigieg-ignores-ohio-train-d...

ClumsyPilot 4y ago
Why is Federal government at fault, and not, you know, the rail company that owns the railroads and collects the revenues?
- shawn-butler 4y ago
  In my mind because Biden/Buttigieg had Congress impose a labor contract to prevent a strike a few months ago and rail safety due to labor cuts by these same rail companies was one of the issues workers were concerned about?
  - sam0x17 4y ago
    Yeah anything short of meeting the strikers demands is insane. I still can't believe that's not what went down. These are possibly some of the most important workers in the country, and they can't even get sick days.
    - LarryMullins 4y ago
      It sure does seem weird that something as fundamentally efficient as trains are supposedly so hard to run economically that treating workers properly just isn't economically feasible. Of course it is feasible, but the transit corps are only interested in maximizing profit and the government backs them up. They could run these trains with 10x the crew, with full top-tier benefits, and still turn a sustainable profit. But right now these companies are being run as paperclip maximizers and merely sustainable profit isn't good enough for them.

steeleyespan 4y ago

Another 4Chan conspiracy proven to be false! Toxic fumes are proven by science to be safe and effective. The dose never leaves the muscle tissue.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
xadhominemx 4y ago
> The dose never leaves the muscle tissue. Yes it does, quite rapidly in fact.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

bingo00 4y ago

Maybe I missed it but does anyone know where these things were going/delivered to? What's the use for chemicals like this? I can't seem to find any info.

fragmede 4y ago
Vinyl chloride (VC) is used to make polyvinyl chloride (PVC), an inert plastic material used in all sorts of things, but is well known as the PVC in PVC pipes which are used everywhere.

panick21_ 4y ago

I'm not one that usually advocates for nationalization, but with these rail companies, this should be done. For multiple reason: - These companies make absurdly huge profit that could be reinvested into the network to improve the network for everybody (electrification, passenger transport). And these are not some complex tech companies that the government couldn't operate. - These companies are blocking passenger travel and don't care that they are doing it, all other approaches to prevent this have failed. With the current structure there is no change for the US ever to develop a serious passenger rail infrastructure, either inter-city, regional or S-Bahn style. Many local government and states might want to do more train stuff but currently don't feel empowered to do so any trying is often not even worth it. - They are removing anything not absurdly profitable, shifting things from rail to trucks. And then trucks use government funded road and highway infrastructure instead. Its just bad intensives. - Current companies have a bad track record and there are way to many derailments, and this is serious strategic concern for logistics that the government should really take better care off. Just for reference, with the current profit of these companies, the US could easily executed a systematic program of electrification, track and signaling upgrades. Vastly improving both the amount of cargo that can be transported and the passenger that can be transported, and doing so in a much more substantial way. While trains are energy efficient, and its better then trucks, currently they use very dirty locos with no plan of changing it (some mild greenwashing but nothing real). Some of these train companies are literally some of the largest individual users of fossil fuels (behind things like DoD) and no plan for change anytime soon. It would also make transporting cargo from city-to-city easier if these cities are currently in the domain of one of the competitor companies. This is a real problem for shipping. If the US wants to seriously drive modal share of cargo and passenger transport to green energy efficient trains, its the only way I can see it gone work.

winrid 4y ago
But how do you nationalize an entire industry?
- JetSpiegel 4y ago
  If only the president's party controlled both houses of Congress, they could have passed a bill and he would have signed it. An hypothetical situation, when this was being discussed about 3 months ago...

TurkishPoptart 4y ago

They call it a derailment, but isn't "explosion" a better word choice? Seems like downplaying.

legitster 4y ago
The "explosion" was part of an intentional burn as part of the prescribed cleanup plan: https://www.npr.org/2023/02/06/1154760911/ohio-train-derailment https://www.npr.org/2023/02/06/1154760911/ohio-train-derailm...

olivermarks 4y ago

Where are the environmentalists? This is a huge catastrophe that will have long term repercussions across a wide area. Are all the climate change organizations/lobbyists actually corporate sponsored and don't want to rock the boat? There is little information on why so many trains with hazardous cargos are derailing in north America. This could be sabotage by malevolent actors.

xadhominemx 4y ago
> This is a huge catastrophe that will have long term repercussions across a wide area. No it’s not, and no it won’t.
- manuelabeledo 4y ago
  Care to share why you think that way?
  - xadhominemx 4y ago
    The chemicals are not very toxic and they have low environmental and biological persistence and they were almost all destroyed in the controlled fire
    - olivermarks 4y ago
      That's a glass half full perspective! How come so many fish and animals are still dying or are dead in the area?
      - xadhominemx 4y ago
        Fish are very sensitive

nabla9 4y ago

Legislation passed under President Obama required trains carrying hazardous flammable materials to have ECP brakes. The law was rescinded in 2017 by the Trump administration.

fragmede 4y ago
> Electronically controlled pneumatic (ECP) brakes are a type of modern railway braking system which offer improved performance compared to traditional railway air brakes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronically_controlled_pneumatic_brakes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronically_controlled_pneu...
celdon25 4y ago
[flagged]

whyage 4y ago

Health concerns also grow in East Palestine

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

fifteenforty 4y ago

Weird comment about masks not working for vinyl chloride. Whilst it’s true that a particulate filtering mask (N95) isn’t enough, you can definitely get some protection from an organic vapour cartridge fitted to a reusable respirator. See https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/regulations/standardnumber/1910/1910.1017 https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/regulations/standardnumber/19...

u8080 4y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dioxins_and_dioxin-like_compounds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dioxins_and_dioxin-like_compou... >PCDD/F-compounds were never synthesized for any purpose, except for small quantities for scientific research.[12] Small amounts of PCDD/Fs are formed whenever organics, oxygen and chlorine are available at suitable temperatures.[1] This is augmented by metal catalysts such as copper. The optimal temperature range is 400 °C (752 °F) to 700 °C (1,292 °F). This means that formation is highest when organic material is burned in less-than-optimal conditions such as open fires, building fires, domestic fireplaces, and poorly operated and/or designed solid waste incinerators.[3] Historically, municipal and medical waste incineration was the most important source of PCDD/Fs.

gaoshan 4y ago

The train that was carrying all of this passed through Cleveland, Ohio, just prior to this accident. Imagine the fallout if this had happened around a population of hundreds of thousands of people?

lynguist 4y ago

When I hear Ohio and trains I immediately think of the huge federal grants for building a higher speed rail line from Cleveland over Columbus to Cincinnati that were already granted. The same was granted for Wisconsin and Florida. And one by one their governors refused to use these grants to build the infrastructure, and one by one the federal grants were reassigned, until in the end Florida got 2.3 billion dollars for building a high-speed rail line Miami-Orlando-Tampa. That was also sabotaged by its governor. But because such a rail line is so incredibly economically effective a private company started to build it anyhow, just at lower speeds. I’m still flabbergasted about this.

enriquec 4y ago
so... the grants were unnecessary? Also, how can someone see this catastrophe and still want to go with trains -- 200+ year old tech that is clearly environmentally destructive, doesn't solve last-mile, and can't be parallelized or re-routed, or even rescheduled easily
- manuelabeledo 4y ago
  > Also, how can someone see this catastrophe and still want to go with trains Perhaps because most of the industrialised world run tens of thousands of freight and passenger trains every day. What happened in Ohio is not an inherent issue with trains.
- dieortin 4y ago
  It’s not more environmentally destructive than any of the alternatives, quite the opposite actually. And it’s the most efficient way to transport cargo and passengers across land.

mcguire 4y ago

Also, https://www.wkbn.com/news/local-news/east-palestine-train-derailment/north-lima-woman-finds-chickens-dead-tuesday-questions-chemical-release-from-train/ https://www.wkbn.com/news/local-news/east-palestine-train-de... https://www.wkbn.com/news/local-news/east-palestine-train-derailment/health-concerns-mounting-as-animals-become-sick-after-train-derailment/ https://www.wkbn.com/news/local-news/east-palestine-train-de...

dang 4y ago

Related: Ohio train derailment: environmental disaster quietly unfolding - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34783940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34783940 - Feb 2023 (300 comments) Ask HN: Any HNers have air quality sensors near-ish 'East Palistine, Ohio'? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34783664 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34783664 - Feb 2023 (11 comments) Ohio vinyl chloride accident summary - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34781184 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34781184 - Feb 2023 (7 comments) Ohio catastrophe is ‘wake-up call’ to dangers of deadly train derailments - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34773513 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34773513 - Feb 2023 (230 comments) Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34772687 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34772687 - Feb 2023 (212 comments) Health concerns mounting as animals become sick after train derailment - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34758525 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34758525 - Feb 2023 (128 comments)

legohead 4y ago

Saw an interesting video about Precision Scheduled Railroading[1] saying it is related to this accident. Not sure how accurate it is, but definitely worth checking out. I'd never heard of it. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2-fdkGsnf4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2-fdkGsnf4

mike50 4y ago

I can't believe that the supposedly internet savvy crowd here is citing CNN, USA Today and Murdoch mouthpieces for poor news coverage. CNN and USA today are literally rewritten Wire service or newspaper articles.

NCSayre 4y ago

As an OSHA Train-A-Trainer what I'm seeing in the Media is making me cringe. Why aren't the workers wearing chemical respirators? They need to check OSHA Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) Standards so they're protected along with their families. Why isn't OSHA Region 5 dealing with this situation? And lastly, why haven't the citizens of Palestine, OH been evacuated as of yet. This is a serious situation some of these chemicals are carcinogens and cause their lungs, eyes, skin, and even in the long run cause various cancers. Please evacuate as soon as possible before these chemicals affect your health. Here's the OSHA Region 5 Cleveland Office Number (216)447-4194. Stay Healthy and Be Safe.

TurkishPoptart 4y ago

It's odd how silent out Transportation Secretary is about this. A cursory review of his twitter page is just gushing reports of important meetings and platitudes about "building back better". Some accountability or semblance of investigation would be appreciated.