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UK is in a unique position of consistently making political decisions which cost money; unnecessarily hard Brexit, raising cost of import / export, reducing ta

UK is in a unique position of consistently making political decisions which cost money; unnecessarily hard Brexit, raising cost of import / export, reducing tax revenues, increasing cost of employment, increasing cost of doing business various rushed trade deals (Australia / NZ) made to satisfy the newspapers, despite them harming domestic farming for nothing in return various boondoggles (BritishVolt) invested in to demonstrate British industrial power, ignoring economies of scale and decades long commitment needed to see it through demonstrating fealty to the US by hostile decoupling with China, despite M15 passing Huawei telecoms products as fundamentally secure, costing UK Gov billions to replace equipment swashbuckling leadership in support of Ukraine, overcommitting already threadbare armed forces, such that a US general commented today that the UK army is no longer a first class service as a result the list can go on. UK has a political crisis, based on an identity crisis, for which there is no foreseeable solution on the horizon. Needs a miracle breakthrough technology (graphene? quantum computing?) - a literal moonshot - to reverse this decline

Freak_NL 4y ago
> UK has a political crisis, based on an identity crisis, for which there is no foreseeable solution on the horizon. Getting rid of the first-past-the-post voting system would be a good start. > Needs a miracle breakthrough technology (graphene? quantum computing?) - a literal moonshot - to reverse this decline A figurative one surely? Actually going to the moon would make much more sense in cooperation with other countries in any case.
- hunglee2 4y ago
  FPTP - couldn't agree more. However, Labour are the only ones who can do it, and Starmer has not said a word about it so far, so in typical Labour fashion they will be so thankful of 'a turn' in power to lose the generational opportunity to truly improve the governance of the country
  - gadders 4y ago
    There was a referendum on removing FPTP and it was rejected by the British people.
    - happymellon 4y ago
      Because both Tory and Labour campaigned against it.
      - ben_w 4y ago
        Do you expect that's going to change next time, or do you expect that a third party will get a chance to do it against the campaigns of those two?
        happymellon 4y ago
        A 3rd party did try, Lib Dems Vs Labour and Tory, and the Lib Dems lost. Labour haven't shown that they would be for a change to the voting system, so I can't see why they would support it. They also sabotaged the remain vote by saying they were pro-remain whilst saying that leave is the only option. I don't know why anyone would trust Labour to do the right thing.
    - arp242 4y ago
      There was a referendum on Alternative Vote (which is actually not that different from FPTP). I don' want to be overly pedantic, but I think the difference does matter. The campaign was also filled with misinformation and emotional manipulation. I'm not saying this invalidates the result, but "we had a good long look at our electoral system and made a wise and informed decision" it was not.
  - happymellon 4y ago
    Remember that Labour campaigned against an alternative voting system when we had a referendum on the matter.
- ben_w 4y ago
  > Getting rid of the first-past-the-post voting system would be a good start. Yes but there was a referendum on that and people said "keep FPTP". IMO large chunks of UK constitution needs replacement. Working out which parts are causing trouble will require putting the whole current ad-hoc mess into a single document, even if only so that people can work out if Eton really is the nexus of aristocratic nepotism and cronyism that is it's reputation. > A figurative one surely? Actually going to the moon would make much more sense in cooperation with other countries in any case. If we can convince the British establishment that it's Space Australia, and assuming this doesn't kill everyone involved (big if), it might work. Possibly.
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    > Yes but there was a referendum on that and people said "keep FPTP". The campaign against was run by the same guy that ran the Brexit campaign, and featured posters of premature babies suggesting they didn't need a new voting system, they needed more NHS funding. And as with Brexit, they got neither. Adds further irony to the "will of the people" catchphrase popular after Brexit though.
    - ben_w 4y ago
      Sure; nevertheless, I don't think that's likely to influence the result if there was a rerun.
      - sph 4y ago
        I don't know, at a certain point the pro-Brexit pro-FPTP protest voters will be fed up by the state of things, and decide to protest vote for the Euro, rejoining EU, and eliminating FPTP. Don't forget that apart from the Tory cronies, there is practically no one left in Britain that is happy with how things are going. Times might be ripe for a counter protest vote.
    - fidgewidge 4y ago
      They did in fact get more NHS funding. Why does every single thread about the UK or NHS contain this lie? NHS funding has only ever gone up. https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-budget https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-...
godzillabrennus 4y ago
Don’t worry they decided to shut down TechNation to give Barclays more money. The one large government funded organization known to help the UK bring in tech talent that has started major tech companies will lose funding so a bank can get a handout.
- hunglee2 4y ago
  TechNation shut down? Never rated it in the first place, but surprised that this has happened also. Incredible
zoobab 4y ago
I was ordering bike parts in the UK from Belgium, after the import taxes hit the company, they lost 80% of their sales. How can brexit negotiators fucked up so badly?
- LatteLazy 4y ago
  They didn't necessarily "fuck up". Many people voted for exactly this sort of BS. I am not saying that was a good idea. But that's what things like "Less Imports" and "no more regulations" mean in practice.
  - hunglee2 4y ago
    100% correct. Was not a negotiating failure, it was the desired outcome, though perhaps not the desired consequences of such an outcome
    - xiphias2 4y ago
      It's interesting to see interviews with people who voted for Brexit. They understand that they have a worse life, but their emotions about the vote didn't change as significantly as their life circumstances because of their vote.
      - LatteLazy 4y ago
        For many people it was a religious decision, a matter of faith. "You cannot reason people out of something they did not reason their way into"
      - fidgewidge 4y ago
        It's because the reasons they have a worse life aren't caused by Brexit. The ruling party hasn't actually changed anything even though now they legally can.
  - throwaway_3850 4y ago
    It is also told, that the EU has the toughest negotiators in the world. They got trained full-time on inner conflicts and just keep burying interlocutors, no matter the country.
throwaway6734 4y ago
>UK has a political crisis, based on an identity crisis, for which there is no foreseeable solution on the horizon. Needs a miracle breakthrough technology (graphene? quantum computing?) - a literal moonshot - to reverse this decline The UK's economic future is not nearly as dire as South Korea's, Germany's, Italy's or China's due to the latter countries serious demographic issues
- manuelabeledo 4y ago
  UK fertility rate is barely higher than Germany, and the population pyramid looks significantly worse than China.
  - throwaway6734 4y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Kingd... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_China Germany's population pyramid is significantly more top heavy as is China's. Not to mention, the UK is much better at assimilating immigrants than Germany and especially China.
    - jacooper 4y ago
      > the UK is much better at assimilating immigrants than Germany and especially China. Doubt there will be any immigrants left, after crazy stuff like sending immigrants to Rwanda and attack them publicly for any and every failure of the economy. Also from a quick read, immigration has already filled the fertility gap in Germany and after the Ukraine war it's giving a surplus too.
    - manuelabeledo 4y ago
      > Germany's population pyramid is significantly more top heavy as is China's. I must be looking at a different graph, because the UK looks like it clearly has less people under 10, than over 60, which does not happen in China. > Not to mention, the UK is much better at assimilating immigrants than Germany and especially China. That is debatable. UK immigration numbers are quite similar to Germany, with 7.7% of non EU immigrants, vs 7.8% [0]. This percentage is lower than other countries like Spain or Greece. Crime rates among immigrants in the UK seem to be similar to those in other countries, as are poverty rates. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_immigration_to_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_immigration_to_the_Unit...
unity1001 4y ago
> Needs a miracle breakthrough technology (graphene? quantum computing?) - a literal moonshot - to reverse this decline No chance of that with the aristocratic Toffs who monopolize the UK establishment. The aristocracy that was broken in Europe after the French Revolution is still alive and well in the UK and its plaguing 'the commoners'. They will never allow anything that could affect their tax-dodging wealth to happen. Its better for them to financialize the entire island and sell it out to US corporations wholesale for even more profit. And they already started that with the NHS...
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  How many of them are aristocrats?
  - unity1001 4y ago
    An appalling percentage of them are actual aristocrats. The broader segment seems to consist of relatives, aristocratic bastards, their broader 'gentleman' circles and so on. Basically what constituted the elite in Britain in the past ~300 years. What's incredible is that this is an aristocracy that is consciously kept alive and in power, with this aristocratic class vigilantly protecting their class consciousness and power. The below, very insightful description of this by a Brit is taken from a Quora post, an answer to a question "Why does the British ruling class hates Yuri Gagarin, Russians and other nations": --------- British guy here. Etonians and the British upper class in general have an innate sense of superiority-it’s taught to them at school and the notion is pervasive throughout our whole society. Mr Finnegan is absolutely correct when he states that any contradiction of this is anathema to them. So although the whole society is rigged in their favour they still think that their achievements, wealth and money are all self earned. The idea that a bunch of Russian yokels could lead armies to defeat the Nazis or take humans into the cosmos-Yuri’s parents were peasants-shows this lie for what it is. I read a book recently by Rutger Bregner. In it he discusses an experiment where two people played games of monopoly but one was given specific advantages which essentially guaranteed them to win. What the scientists found was that after a while the people who were given the advantageous rules actual started to believe they were better at playing the game even though they were fully aware that the game was rigged in there favour! So when people tremble at the possibility of wealthy people leaving the country due to some policy which disadvantages them in favour of the majority-I say good let them go there are plenty of people from the working class with more talent willing to what they do under fairer circumstances. (Marcus McNary)
LatteLazy 4y ago
When the decline is choice (like it is for the UK), no miracle breakthrough will be allowed to reverse it. That's sort of the point. The solution here is (1) old people die off until a new generation hold a majority and (2) years of grinding economic pain educate people not to make economically damaging choices for fun. The fact the people who voted for this are the most insulated from it is both the reason it happened and the reason it will take 20 years to fix.
_djo_ 4y ago
> swashbuckling leadership in support of Ukraine, overcommitting already threadbare armed forces, such that a US general commented today that the UK army is no longer a first class service as a result That's an inaccurate characterisation of the US general's reported comments, which were about long-term trends in British defence spending, procurement, and equipment types, as well as the lack of a plan to boost spending in light of the war in Ukraine, not about the non-frontline stuff it has sent to Ukraine. Warnings about the state and future trajectory of the UK armed forces have been coming from the US side for a number of years now.
- _vbnz 4y ago
  > Warnings about the state and future trajectory of the UK armed forces have been coming from the US side for a number of years now. And they can all be solved by buying American weapons... funny that.
  - varjag 4y ago
    You're talking about the UK, the core of a former global empire with no shortage of arms manufacturing expertise.
  - throwrqX 4y ago
    They can also be solved by developing their own industry. Not sure they want to spend the money on it though.
  - selectodude 4y ago
    The UK has a very healthy domestic defense industry that makes most of its money selling to the Americans. I imagine BAE Systems would appreciate the local business.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    Selling arms to despots is one of the things that's actually going well in the UK.
- throwrqX 4y ago
riffraff 4y ago
> M15 I think you mean MI-5 (Military Intelligence 5), if not I'd like to know what M15 is.
- hestefisk 4y ago
  Predecessor to the M16 rifle, of course
- 867-5309 4y ago
  my guess was an intentional misspelling to evade their radar, e.g. N5A, FB1, interp01
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  It's also a cancelled motorway[0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M15_motorway_(Great_Britain) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M15_motorway_(Great_Britain)
rayiner 4y ago
It’s worth looking at the UK through a broader historical lens, as a former empire that is trying to survive post-decline and collapse. Britain was an empire not that long ago. My parents were literally born in the British empire, until Pakistan became a republic in 1956. Now Britain is basically irrelevant on the world stage. That has got to have a ton of economic and political ramifications that will play out for decades longer.
- parthdesai 4y ago
  An empire that was built on theft and oppression. I Was born in India, and my grandfather lived through this oppression, and told me about the things the brits did; it's kind of ironic and funny how not a lot of people talk about it.
  - ndsipa_pomu 4y ago
    There's a reason that films usually have an englishman as the bad guy
  - nicoburns 4y ago
    > An empire that was built on theft and oppression Not that it makes it any better, but isn't that what all empires are built on? A more ethical empire wouldn't be an empire at all. It'd be something more akin to the USA, the EU, or on a smaller scale the UK itself.
    - dTal 4y ago
      The UK itself is not an "ethical empire", it is the English empire. England's satellite states are second-class, and were annexed coercively if not violently. All of them harbor grudges about it, and all of them have robust political factions which advocate leaving the UK.
      - fidgewidge 4y ago
        Yes all of Scotland harbors a grudge against the English, that's why they voted to remain a part of the UK when given their "once in a generation" chance to do so. And yes they're totally second class. That's why they have their own parliaments whereas England doesn't.
bradleyjg 4y ago
You’ve mixed tiny trivialities with the one factor that’s killing the UK economy—Brexit. The rest aren’t even rounding errors.
- rayiner 4y ago
  The UK’s GDP per capita peaked in 2007 and has stagnated since then: https://www.google.com/search?q=uk+gdp+per+capita&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari https://www.google.com/search?q=uk+gdp+per+capita&ie=UTF-8&o.... 2008 was the global financial collapse, of course, but in the UK it seemed to have exposed some fundamental economic problems because the country never recovered. Whatever is “killing the UK economy” happened long before Brexit. It’s actually like the Sixth Sense—the UK isn’t dying, it was dead the whole time. Heck, if you look at the chart of GDP per capita you can’t even tell where the Brexit vote happened or when Brexit formally happened. Something similar happened Italy around the same time, as well as Greece.
  - cloutchaser 4y ago
    People seem to ignore the EU is in just as bad a state as the UK, especially now that Russian energy is over Germany as we know it is basically over. Brexit might have had an impact but it’s one of 10 things badly wrong with europe as a whole.
    - martimarkov 4y ago
      But the thing is that the EU is not. Every major power in the EU is predicted to grow their economy and the UK is the only one that is not. Even if you look at it as a purely engineering problem you'd see that adding more red tape on trade would be most detrimental to the smallest player. In the relationship with the EU, the UK is the smaller player.
      - xyzzyz 4y ago
        Predictions are not worth much. Everyone predicted UK’s economy will collapse after Brexit. While it certainly has not flourished, it is not any worse than before. Now, what about the other “major powers” which are “predicted” to grow their economy? France’s GDP per capita has peaked in 2008, and never recovered since then. Italy? Same. Spain? Same. Belgium? Only recovered to 2008’s figure in 2021, same as Netherlands, Denmark, Finland. Sweden also only now recently recovered to its peak in 2011. In fact, the only major EU economies that did not simply recover to their 2008-2011 peaks, but rather grown beyond them, are Germany, Poland and Czechia. The truth of the matter is that EU economies are deeply stagnant, this is by no means a UK specific problem. There is no reason to predict growth in EU but not in UK.
shubb 4y ago
>> UK has a political crisis, based on an identity crisis, for which there is no foreseeable solution on the horizon. Needs a miracle breakthrough technology (graphene? quantum computing?) - a literal moonshot - to reverse this decline The conclusion of your first sentence would be the solution is in the cause - the end in the beginning. If the UK can resolve its identify crisis and understand its reality as a medium sized country in europe then it can begin to make rational decisions. For instance, if it sublimated its defence to the EU or NATO, it would not need to have a first class army. If it re-integrated with europe (via the EEA, I don't think an EU re-entry will be possible on either end for a long time) then a battery factory in France still enables a UK car industry. It would take a miracle to align the UK's reality with its self image, but aligning the self image with reality just requires a more honest media.
- FormerBandmate 4y ago
  The UK is a very powerful country *in Europe*. Their defenses are already sublimated to NATO, they’re wounding their economy unnecessarily by decoupling from Europe but as a member of the EU they were the second biggest economy and a huge financial and military hub. They could be again if they opened their economy back up
- pydry 4y ago
  >For instance, if it sublimated its defence to the EU or NATO, it would not need to have a first class army. The army has been hollowed out along with everything else: https://news.sky.com/story/us-general-warns-british-army-no-longer-top-level-fighting-force-defence-sources-reveal-12798365 https://news.sky.com/story/us-general-warns-british-army-no-...
- ianburrell 4y ago
  The EU and NATO are dependent on militaries of constituent countries. The US complaint is that UK has cut military too much to contribute as they should to NATO. If UK rejoined EU, they would be required to contribute more as one of the larger powers. OTOH, rejoining the EU would help the economy and make military less of an issue. EU has become less important militarily. Partly because UK left but mainly because Ukraine war has energized NATO. Sweden and Finland wanting to join NATO will get rid of potential conflict that only EU could respond to.
5350-uiop-1130 4y ago
> there is no foreseeable solution on the horizon solution is simple, stop electing self-serving c*nts. you hire clowns you get a circus. brexits main goal was to preserve the uk's status as a home for illicit international money. but putins action force them to set an unwanted precedent; sactioning richman abramovich. why do you think escobar was shot on sight. because money is higher than law.
- ndsipa_pomu 4y ago
  Where I live, in Bristol, it's strange as we're a very lefty city surrounded by right-leaning counties. I often forget that my experience is so slanted until I end up discussing events with non-Bristolians and then I'm just shocked at what they believe.
  - arp242 4y ago
    And even Bristol is not as left-wing as it pretends to be, IMHO. If it had been located in the US people would be talking about a segregated city. Rioting because a Tesco's opens is not being "lefty", and neither is buying drugs on Stokes Croft. I think Bristol is actually a good example of everything that's wrong with the modern left, which seems to have shifted almost exclusively to self-centred goals such as "I want to be gay and do drugs". All of that is fine and I'm in favour of that too, but if that's the only thing... I don't want to arrogantly sit here as the arbitrator of who is and isn't a "true" lefty, but to me, you're not really left-wing if that's all you care about.
    - ndsipa_pomu 4y ago
      I don't agree with your characterisation of Bristol people - there's a lot of people and there's certainly some richer areas. It seems like you're setting up a strawman - that the 'modern lefties' only care about two distinct topics and then making value judgements based on that. There's also a hint of the True Scotsman fallacy, but you're not defining what you consider to be 'true' left-wing.
- pessimizer 4y ago
kmlx 4y ago
i think people are reading way too much into this. since the UK had one of the strongest numbers in 2022 it’s quite normal to see some backlash now due to inflation, taxes and gas prices. the lack of low wage labour and extra paperwork when exporting/importing is surely not helping, but it’s usually a lot more complex than a single factor. i also tend to heavily doubt these forecasts based simply on their history. every institution was forecasting massive recession in december. and then in january the forecasted recession went away. and then a few weeks later germany reported they’re almost in a recession. so zero trust from me.
jahnu 4y ago
> UK has a political crisis, based on an identity crisis One theory about this explains it as primarily an English identity crisis. In the past two decades trust in Westminister has plummeted in England as the rest of the UK established or is at least trying to establish with varying degrees of success their own local devolved centres of power which bring a strong sense of identity. England doesn’t have a power centre of its own and with the end of the British empire went the sense of Britishness albeit more slowly. Now Englanders feel somewhat adrift and powerless in their own land and lash out and take out their frustrations on targets offered up by populist media and politicians.
- soco 4y ago
  Might be my outsider view but I don't see much representation of the opinions of Scottish, Northern Irish or Welsh. It's almost always English here English there. Do the others matter less in UK politics, do they align pretty much to English opinions, or it's just sloppy a way of generally referring to UK citizens?
  - jahnu 4y ago
    It’s probably mostly just down to the fact that there are a lot more English citizens than others. Historically, England is richer and until recently all important decisions were made in London. Then there is the fact that most Americans and especially in American media British=English and even then mostly Southern English so that influences how outsiders view the place. I lived in England for a few years and Scotland for one and yeah it’s true the opinions of the other parts weren’t really considered by English people, by and large.
- nmeofthestate 4y ago
  > England doesn’t have a power centre of its own In fact, the UK parliament - Westminster - is a defacto English power centre. The fringe nations are a mathematical irrelevance except in extreme cases. The UK is in reality Greater England, same way the Russian Federation is Russia writ large. This narrative of forgotten, voiceless England doesn't stand up to examination. Brexit, though, was most certainly born out of (some of) the English feeling that they were losing control of their domain to Europe.
nradov 4y ago
MI5 never passed Huawei telecoms products as "fundamentally secure". Their claim was much more limited. The UK government could still securely share intelligence with the USA even if the civilian telecoms infrastructure used Huawei equipment. Presumably government and military networks would still use other more trusted suppliers. https://news.sky.com/story/mi5-chief-shrugs-off-us-warnings-about-huawei-impact-on-intelligence-sharing-11907394 https://news.sky.com/story/mi5-chief-shrugs-off-us-warnings-... Regardless of security issues, allowing an adversary and competitor state such as China to control your critical infrastructure is clearly a stupid idea. This is a strategic issue which transcends economics.
scythe 4y ago
>UK has a political crisis, based on an identity crisis, for which there is no foreseeable solution on the horizon. UK also has an incredible deficit of housing units and a general weakness in construction: https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/09/01/britains-failure-to-build-is-throttling-its-economy https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/09/01/britains-failur... >England has 434 homes per 1,000 people, whereas France has 590 A high real price of housing increases salary demands in skilled industries like healthcare and education (nurses and teachers expect to be able to afford a home) which results in higher government outlays, which leads to higher tax burden and diminished infrastructure investment — the UK's electric grid is inadequate for Scotland's windmills: https://archy.deberker.com/the-uk-is-wasting-a-lot-of-wind-power/ https://archy.deberker.com/the-uk-is-wasting-a-lot-of-wind-p... Historically, infrastructure was among the UK's greatest strengths: famous ports, first powered railroads, first subways, first power plant, first national radio broadcaster, second bus system (France beat them by a year), thousands of years of canals, etc... to lag in building the power grid should be seen as a serious embarrassment.
brianmcc 4y ago
>> UK has a political crisis, based on an identity crisis, for which there is no foreseeable solution on the horizon. We had Tory govts from 1979 to 1997. Current situation feels similar, we're just desperate for change as a nation. Younger folks don't even remember a non-Tory govt. Labour are polling ~50% vs Tory ~26% which is unprecedented in modern times. I happen to think "New Labour" did OK. E.g. 2010 saw highest ever NHS satisfaction levels, and waiting lists were nothing compared to now. I would at least give Labour a chance to turn things round before deeming it all unfixable. I have reservations, but my God they have to be better than these current scoundrels :-( Finally - I do believe the Brexit house of cards is collapsing. Room for manoeuvre is appearing.
tablespoon 4y ago
> despite M15 passing Huawei telecoms products as fundamentally secure That sounds massively overstated. How could anyone pass any computer/software system developed using conventional methods as "fundamentally secure"? I haven't followed UK/Huawei closely, but I can't imagine them saying anything stronger than "we didn't manage to find any backdoors at point in time X."
rcarr 4y ago
> various rushed trade deals (Australia / NZ) made to satisfy the newspapers, despite them harming domestic farming for nothing in return I think the government have inadvertently fucked up with this one. The AUS trade deal increased the working holiday visa from 2 years for 18-30 year olds to three years for 18-35 year olds as well as dropping the requirement to do farm work in order to maintain your visa. As someone over 30 who thought he'd missed the boat on taking advantage of the scheme, I'll be applying for the new visa as soon as it becomes available. I imagine lots of other people 35 and younger are looking at the state of the UK and thinking the same. What is the point in staying here when the cost of everything, but housing in particular, is absolutely insane and makes starting a life impossible? Yes, house prices in Australia are also insane, but at least the wages and weather are better and I get to have a fun adventure. Most people I know who went to Australia never came back and I intend not to if I can find a company to sponsor me for full citizenship. I can only see this new trade deal exacerbating the labour shortage as I doubt many Australian's will be jumping to get over here in return considering what's happening.

Freak_NL 4y ago

> UK has a political crisis, based on an identity crisis, for which there is no foreseeable solution on the horizon. Getting rid of the first-past-the-post voting system would be a good start. > Needs a miracle breakthrough technology (graphene? quantum computing?) - a literal moonshot - to reverse this decline A figurative one surely? Actually going to the moon would make much more sense in cooperation with other countries in any case.

hunglee2 4y ago
FPTP - couldn't agree more. However, Labour are the only ones who can do it, and Starmer has not said a word about it so far, so in typical Labour fashion they will be so thankful of 'a turn' in power to lose the generational opportunity to truly improve the governance of the country
- gadders 4y ago
  There was a referendum on removing FPTP and it was rejected by the British people.
  - happymellon 4y ago
    Because both Tory and Labour campaigned against it.
    - ben_w 4y ago
      Do you expect that's going to change next time, or do you expect that a third party will get a chance to do it against the campaigns of those two?
      - happymellon 4y ago
        A 3rd party did try, Lib Dems Vs Labour and Tory, and the Lib Dems lost. Labour haven't shown that they would be for a change to the voting system, so I can't see why they would support it. They also sabotaged the remain vote by saying they were pro-remain whilst saying that leave is the only option. I don't know why anyone would trust Labour to do the right thing.
  - arp242 4y ago
    There was a referendum on Alternative Vote (which is actually not that different from FPTP). I don' want to be overly pedantic, but I think the difference does matter. The campaign was also filled with misinformation and emotional manipulation. I'm not saying this invalidates the result, but "we had a good long look at our electoral system and made a wise and informed decision" it was not.
- happymellon 4y ago
  Remember that Labour campaigned against an alternative voting system when we had a referendum on the matter.
ben_w 4y ago
> Getting rid of the first-past-the-post voting system would be a good start. Yes but there was a referendum on that and people said "keep FPTP". IMO large chunks of UK constitution needs replacement. Working out which parts are causing trouble will require putting the whole current ad-hoc mess into a single document, even if only so that people can work out if Eton really is the nexus of aristocratic nepotism and cronyism that is it's reputation. > A figurative one surely? Actually going to the moon would make much more sense in cooperation with other countries in any case. If we can convince the British establishment that it's Space Australia, and assuming this doesn't kill everyone involved (big if), it might work. Possibly.
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  > Yes but there was a referendum on that and people said "keep FPTP". The campaign against was run by the same guy that ran the Brexit campaign, and featured posters of premature babies suggesting they didn't need a new voting system, they needed more NHS funding. And as with Brexit, they got neither. Adds further irony to the "will of the people" catchphrase popular after Brexit though.
  - ben_w 4y ago
    Sure; nevertheless, I don't think that's likely to influence the result if there was a rerun.
    - sph 4y ago
      I don't know, at a certain point the pro-Brexit pro-FPTP protest voters will be fed up by the state of things, and decide to protest vote for the Euro, rejoining EU, and eliminating FPTP. Don't forget that apart from the Tory cronies, there is practically no one left in Britain that is happy with how things are going. Times might be ripe for a counter protest vote.
  - fidgewidge 4y ago
    They did in fact get more NHS funding. Why does every single thread about the UK or NHS contain this lie? NHS funding has only ever gone up. https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-budget https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-...

godzillabrennus 4y ago

Don’t worry they decided to shut down TechNation to give Barclays more money. The one large government funded organization known to help the UK bring in tech talent that has started major tech companies will lose funding so a bank can get a handout.

hunglee2 4y ago
TechNation shut down? Never rated it in the first place, but surprised that this has happened also. Incredible

zoobab 4y ago

I was ordering bike parts in the UK from Belgium, after the import taxes hit the company, they lost 80% of their sales. How can brexit negotiators fucked up so badly?

LatteLazy 4y ago
They didn't necessarily "fuck up". Many people voted for exactly this sort of BS. I am not saying that was a good idea. But that's what things like "Less Imports" and "no more regulations" mean in practice.
- hunglee2 4y ago
  100% correct. Was not a negotiating failure, it was the desired outcome, though perhaps not the desired consequences of such an outcome
  - xiphias2 4y ago
    It's interesting to see interviews with people who voted for Brexit. They understand that they have a worse life, but their emotions about the vote didn't change as significantly as their life circumstances because of their vote.
    - LatteLazy 4y ago
      For many people it was a religious decision, a matter of faith. "You cannot reason people out of something they did not reason their way into"
    - fidgewidge 4y ago
      It's because the reasons they have a worse life aren't caused by Brexit. The ruling party hasn't actually changed anything even though now they legally can.
- throwaway_3850 4y ago
  It is also told, that the EU has the toughest negotiators in the world. They got trained full-time on inner conflicts and just keep burying interlocutors, no matter the country.

throwaway6734 4y ago

>UK has a political crisis, based on an identity crisis, for which there is no foreseeable solution on the horizon. Needs a miracle breakthrough technology (graphene? quantum computing?) - a literal moonshot - to reverse this decline The UK's economic future is not nearly as dire as South Korea's, Germany's, Italy's or China's due to the latter countries serious demographic issues

manuelabeledo 4y ago
UK fertility rate is barely higher than Germany, and the population pyramid looks significantly worse than China.
- throwaway6734 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Kingd... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_China Germany's population pyramid is significantly more top heavy as is China's. Not to mention, the UK is much better at assimilating immigrants than Germany and especially China.
  - jacooper 4y ago
    > the UK is much better at assimilating immigrants than Germany and especially China. Doubt there will be any immigrants left, after crazy stuff like sending immigrants to Rwanda and attack them publicly for any and every failure of the economy. Also from a quick read, immigration has already filled the fertility gap in Germany and after the Ukraine war it's giving a surplus too.
  - manuelabeledo 4y ago
    > Germany's population pyramid is significantly more top heavy as is China's. I must be looking at a different graph, because the UK looks like it clearly has less people under 10, than over 60, which does not happen in China. > Not to mention, the UK is much better at assimilating immigrants than Germany and especially China. That is debatable. UK immigration numbers are quite similar to Germany, with 7.7% of non EU immigrants, vs 7.8% [0]. This percentage is lower than other countries like Spain or Greece. Crime rates among immigrants in the UK seem to be similar to those in other countries, as are poverty rates. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_immigration_to_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_immigration_to_the_Unit...

unity1001 4y ago

> Needs a miracle breakthrough technology (graphene? quantum computing?) - a literal moonshot - to reverse this decline No chance of that with the aristocratic Toffs who monopolize the UK establishment. The aristocracy that was broken in Europe after the French Revolution is still alive and well in the UK and its plaguing 'the commoners'. They will never allow anything that could affect their tax-dodging wealth to happen. Its better for them to financialize the entire island and sell it out to US corporations wholesale for even more profit. And they already started that with the NHS...

robertlagrant 4y ago
How many of them are aristocrats?
- unity1001 4y ago
  An appalling percentage of them are actual aristocrats. The broader segment seems to consist of relatives, aristocratic bastards, their broader 'gentleman' circles and so on. Basically what constituted the elite in Britain in the past ~300 years. What's incredible is that this is an aristocracy that is consciously kept alive and in power, with this aristocratic class vigilantly protecting their class consciousness and power. The below, very insightful description of this by a Brit is taken from a Quora post, an answer to a question "Why does the British ruling class hates Yuri Gagarin, Russians and other nations": --------- British guy here. Etonians and the British upper class in general have an innate sense of superiority-it’s taught to them at school and the notion is pervasive throughout our whole society. Mr Finnegan is absolutely correct when he states that any contradiction of this is anathema to them. So although the whole society is rigged in their favour they still think that their achievements, wealth and money are all self earned. The idea that a bunch of Russian yokels could lead armies to defeat the Nazis or take humans into the cosmos-Yuri’s parents were peasants-shows this lie for what it is. I read a book recently by Rutger Bregner. In it he discusses an experiment where two people played games of monopoly but one was given specific advantages which essentially guaranteed them to win. What the scientists found was that after a while the people who were given the advantageous rules actual started to believe they were better at playing the game even though they were fully aware that the game was rigged in there favour! So when people tremble at the possibility of wealthy people leaving the country due to some policy which disadvantages them in favour of the majority-I say good let them go there are plenty of people from the working class with more talent willing to what they do under fairer circumstances. (Marcus McNary)

LatteLazy 4y ago

When the decline is choice (like it is for the UK), no miracle breakthrough will be allowed to reverse it. That's sort of the point. The solution here is (1) old people die off until a new generation hold a majority and (2) years of grinding economic pain educate people not to make economically damaging choices for fun. The fact the people who voted for this are the most insulated from it is both the reason it happened and the reason it will take 20 years to fix.

_djo_ 4y ago

> swashbuckling leadership in support of Ukraine, overcommitting already threadbare armed forces, such that a US general commented today that the UK army is no longer a first class service as a result That's an inaccurate characterisation of the US general's reported comments, which were about long-term trends in British defence spending, procurement, and equipment types, as well as the lack of a plan to boost spending in light of the war in Ukraine, not about the non-frontline stuff it has sent to Ukraine. Warnings about the state and future trajectory of the UK armed forces have been coming from the US side for a number of years now.

_vbnz 4y ago
> Warnings about the state and future trajectory of the UK armed forces have been coming from the US side for a number of years now. And they can all be solved by buying American weapons... funny that.
- varjag 4y ago
  You're talking about the UK, the core of a former global empire with no shortage of arms manufacturing expertise.
- throwrqX 4y ago
  They can also be solved by developing their own industry. Not sure they want to spend the money on it though.
- selectodude 4y ago
  The UK has a very healthy domestic defense industry that makes most of its money selling to the Americans. I imagine BAE Systems would appreciate the local business.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  Selling arms to despots is one of the things that's actually going well in the UK.
throwrqX 4y ago

riffraff 4y ago

> M15 I think you mean MI-5 (Military Intelligence 5), if not I'd like to know what M15 is.

hestefisk 4y ago
Predecessor to the M16 rifle, of course
867-5309 4y ago
my guess was an intentional misspelling to evade their radar, e.g. N5A, FB1, interp01
robertlagrant 4y ago
It's also a cancelled motorway[0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M15_motorway_(Great_Britain) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M15_motorway_(Great_Britain)

rayiner 4y ago

It’s worth looking at the UK through a broader historical lens, as a former empire that is trying to survive post-decline and collapse. Britain was an empire not that long ago. My parents were literally born in the British empire, until Pakistan became a republic in 1956. Now Britain is basically irrelevant on the world stage. That has got to have a ton of economic and political ramifications that will play out for decades longer.

parthdesai 4y ago
An empire that was built on theft and oppression. I Was born in India, and my grandfather lived through this oppression, and told me about the things the brits did; it's kind of ironic and funny how not a lot of people talk about it.
- ndsipa_pomu 4y ago
  There's a reason that films usually have an englishman as the bad guy
- nicoburns 4y ago
  > An empire that was built on theft and oppression Not that it makes it any better, but isn't that what all empires are built on? A more ethical empire wouldn't be an empire at all. It'd be something more akin to the USA, the EU, or on a smaller scale the UK itself.
  - dTal 4y ago
    The UK itself is not an "ethical empire", it is the English empire. England's satellite states are second-class, and were annexed coercively if not violently. All of them harbor grudges about it, and all of them have robust political factions which advocate leaving the UK.
    - fidgewidge 4y ago
      Yes all of Scotland harbors a grudge against the English, that's why they voted to remain a part of the UK when given their "once in a generation" chance to do so. And yes they're totally second class. That's why they have their own parliaments whereas England doesn't.

bradleyjg 4y ago

You’ve mixed tiny trivialities with the one factor that’s killing the UK economy—Brexit. The rest aren’t even rounding errors.

rayiner 4y ago
The UK’s GDP per capita peaked in 2007 and has stagnated since then: https://www.google.com/search?q=uk+gdp+per+capita&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari https://www.google.com/search?q=uk+gdp+per+capita&ie=UTF-8&o.... 2008 was the global financial collapse, of course, but in the UK it seemed to have exposed some fundamental economic problems because the country never recovered. Whatever is “killing the UK economy” happened long before Brexit. It’s actually like the Sixth Sense—the UK isn’t dying, it was dead the whole time. Heck, if you look at the chart of GDP per capita you can’t even tell where the Brexit vote happened or when Brexit formally happened. Something similar happened Italy around the same time, as well as Greece.
- cloutchaser 4y ago
  People seem to ignore the EU is in just as bad a state as the UK, especially now that Russian energy is over Germany as we know it is basically over. Brexit might have had an impact but it’s one of 10 things badly wrong with europe as a whole.
  - martimarkov 4y ago
    But the thing is that the EU is not. Every major power in the EU is predicted to grow their economy and the UK is the only one that is not. Even if you look at it as a purely engineering problem you'd see that adding more red tape on trade would be most detrimental to the smallest player. In the relationship with the EU, the UK is the smaller player.
    - xyzzyz 4y ago
      Predictions are not worth much. Everyone predicted UK’s economy will collapse after Brexit. While it certainly has not flourished, it is not any worse than before. Now, what about the other “major powers” which are “predicted” to grow their economy? France’s GDP per capita has peaked in 2008, and never recovered since then. Italy? Same. Spain? Same. Belgium? Only recovered to 2008’s figure in 2021, same as Netherlands, Denmark, Finland. Sweden also only now recently recovered to its peak in 2011. In fact, the only major EU economies that did not simply recover to their 2008-2011 peaks, but rather grown beyond them, are Germany, Poland and Czechia. The truth of the matter is that EU economies are deeply stagnant, this is by no means a UK specific problem. There is no reason to predict growth in EU but not in UK.

shubb 4y ago

>> UK has a political crisis, based on an identity crisis, for which there is no foreseeable solution on the horizon. Needs a miracle breakthrough technology (graphene? quantum computing?) - a literal moonshot - to reverse this decline The conclusion of your first sentence would be the solution is in the cause - the end in the beginning. If the UK can resolve its identify crisis and understand its reality as a medium sized country in europe then it can begin to make rational decisions. For instance, if it sublimated its defence to the EU or NATO, it would not need to have a first class army. If it re-integrated with europe (via the EEA, I don't think an EU re-entry will be possible on either end for a long time) then a battery factory in France still enables a UK car industry. It would take a miracle to align the UK's reality with its self image, but aligning the self image with reality just requires a more honest media.

FormerBandmate 4y ago
The UK is a very powerful country *in Europe*. Their defenses are already sublimated to NATO, they’re wounding their economy unnecessarily by decoupling from Europe but as a member of the EU they were the second biggest economy and a huge financial and military hub. They could be again if they opened their economy back up
pydry 4y ago
>For instance, if it sublimated its defence to the EU or NATO, it would not need to have a first class army. The army has been hollowed out along with everything else: https://news.sky.com/story/us-general-warns-british-army-no-longer-top-level-fighting-force-defence-sources-reveal-12798365 https://news.sky.com/story/us-general-warns-british-army-no-...
ianburrell 4y ago
The EU and NATO are dependent on militaries of constituent countries. The US complaint is that UK has cut military too much to contribute as they should to NATO. If UK rejoined EU, they would be required to contribute more as one of the larger powers. OTOH, rejoining the EU would help the economy and make military less of an issue. EU has become less important militarily. Partly because UK left but mainly because Ukraine war has energized NATO. Sweden and Finland wanting to join NATO will get rid of potential conflict that only EU could respond to.

5350-uiop-1130 4y ago

> there is no foreseeable solution on the horizon solution is simple, stop electing self-serving c*nts. you hire clowns you get a circus. brexits main goal was to preserve the uk's status as a home for illicit international money. but putins action force them to set an unwanted precedent; sactioning richman abramovich. why do you think escobar was shot on sight. because money is higher than law.

ndsipa_pomu 4y ago
Where I live, in Bristol, it's strange as we're a very lefty city surrounded by right-leaning counties. I often forget that my experience is so slanted until I end up discussing events with non-Bristolians and then I'm just shocked at what they believe.
- arp242 4y ago
  And even Bristol is not as left-wing as it pretends to be, IMHO. If it had been located in the US people would be talking about a segregated city. Rioting because a Tesco's opens is not being "lefty", and neither is buying drugs on Stokes Croft. I think Bristol is actually a good example of everything that's wrong with the modern left, which seems to have shifted almost exclusively to self-centred goals such as "I want to be gay and do drugs". All of that is fine and I'm in favour of that too, but if that's the only thing... I don't want to arrogantly sit here as the arbitrator of who is and isn't a "true" lefty, but to me, you're not really left-wing if that's all you care about.
  - ndsipa_pomu 4y ago
    I don't agree with your characterisation of Bristol people - there's a lot of people and there's certainly some richer areas. It seems like you're setting up a strawman - that the 'modern lefties' only care about two distinct topics and then making value judgements based on that. There's also a hint of the True Scotsman fallacy, but you're not defining what you consider to be 'true' left-wing.
pessimizer 4y ago

kmlx 4y ago

i think people are reading way too much into this. since the UK had one of the strongest numbers in 2022 it’s quite normal to see some backlash now due to inflation, taxes and gas prices. the lack of low wage labour and extra paperwork when exporting/importing is surely not helping, but it’s usually a lot more complex than a single factor. i also tend to heavily doubt these forecasts based simply on their history. every institution was forecasting massive recession in december. and then in january the forecasted recession went away. and then a few weeks later germany reported they’re almost in a recession. so zero trust from me.

jahnu 4y ago

> UK has a political crisis, based on an identity crisis One theory about this explains it as primarily an English identity crisis. In the past two decades trust in Westminister has plummeted in England as the rest of the UK established or is at least trying to establish with varying degrees of success their own local devolved centres of power which bring a strong sense of identity. England doesn’t have a power centre of its own and with the end of the British empire went the sense of Britishness albeit more slowly. Now Englanders feel somewhat adrift and powerless in their own land and lash out and take out their frustrations on targets offered up by populist media and politicians.

soco 4y ago
Might be my outsider view but I don't see much representation of the opinions of Scottish, Northern Irish or Welsh. It's almost always English here English there. Do the others matter less in UK politics, do they align pretty much to English opinions, or it's just sloppy a way of generally referring to UK citizens?
- jahnu 4y ago
  It’s probably mostly just down to the fact that there are a lot more English citizens than others. Historically, England is richer and until recently all important decisions were made in London. Then there is the fact that most Americans and especially in American media British=English and even then mostly Southern English so that influences how outsiders view the place. I lived in England for a few years and Scotland for one and yeah it’s true the opinions of the other parts weren’t really considered by English people, by and large.
nmeofthestate 4y ago
> England doesn’t have a power centre of its own In fact, the UK parliament - Westminster - is a defacto English power centre. The fringe nations are a mathematical irrelevance except in extreme cases. The UK is in reality Greater England, same way the Russian Federation is Russia writ large. This narrative of forgotten, voiceless England doesn't stand up to examination. Brexit, though, was most certainly born out of (some of) the English feeling that they were losing control of their domain to Europe.

nradov 4y ago

MI5 never passed Huawei telecoms products as "fundamentally secure". Their claim was much more limited. The UK government could still securely share intelligence with the USA even if the civilian telecoms infrastructure used Huawei equipment. Presumably government and military networks would still use other more trusted suppliers. https://news.sky.com/story/mi5-chief-shrugs-off-us-warnings-about-huawei-impact-on-intelligence-sharing-11907394 https://news.sky.com/story/mi5-chief-shrugs-off-us-warnings-... Regardless of security issues, allowing an adversary and competitor state such as China to control your critical infrastructure is clearly a stupid idea. This is a strategic issue which transcends economics.

scythe 4y ago

>UK has a political crisis, based on an identity crisis, for which there is no foreseeable solution on the horizon. UK also has an incredible deficit of housing units and a general weakness in construction: https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/09/01/britains-failure-to-build-is-throttling-its-economy https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/09/01/britains-failur... >England has 434 homes per 1,000 people, whereas France has 590 A high real price of housing increases salary demands in skilled industries like healthcare and education (nurses and teachers expect to be able to afford a home) which results in higher government outlays, which leads to higher tax burden and diminished infrastructure investment — the UK's electric grid is inadequate for Scotland's windmills: https://archy.deberker.com/the-uk-is-wasting-a-lot-of-wind-power/ https://archy.deberker.com/the-uk-is-wasting-a-lot-of-wind-p... Historically, infrastructure was among the UK's greatest strengths: famous ports, first powered railroads, first subways, first power plant, first national radio broadcaster, second bus system (France beat them by a year), thousands of years of canals, etc... to lag in building the power grid should be seen as a serious embarrassment.

brianmcc 4y ago

>> UK has a political crisis, based on an identity crisis, for which there is no foreseeable solution on the horizon. We had Tory govts from 1979 to 1997. Current situation feels similar, we're just desperate for change as a nation. Younger folks don't even remember a non-Tory govt. Labour are polling ~50% vs Tory ~26% which is unprecedented in modern times. I happen to think "New Labour" did OK. E.g. 2010 saw highest ever NHS satisfaction levels, and waiting lists were nothing compared to now. I would at least give Labour a chance to turn things round before deeming it all unfixable. I have reservations, but my God they have to be better than these current scoundrels :-( Finally - I do believe the Brexit house of cards is collapsing. Room for manoeuvre is appearing.

tablespoon 4y ago

> despite M15 passing Huawei telecoms products as fundamentally secure That sounds massively overstated. How could anyone pass any computer/software system developed using conventional methods as "fundamentally secure"? I haven't followed UK/Huawei closely, but I can't imagine them saying anything stronger than "we didn't manage to find any backdoors at point in time X."

rcarr 4y ago

> various rushed trade deals (Australia / NZ) made to satisfy the newspapers, despite them harming domestic farming for nothing in return I think the government have inadvertently fucked up with this one. The AUS trade deal increased the working holiday visa from 2 years for 18-30 year olds to three years for 18-35 year olds as well as dropping the requirement to do farm work in order to maintain your visa. As someone over 30 who thought he'd missed the boat on taking advantage of the scheme, I'll be applying for the new visa as soon as it becomes available. I imagine lots of other people 35 and younger are looking at the state of the UK and thinking the same. What is the point in staying here when the cost of everything, but housing in particular, is absolutely insane and makes starting a life impossible? Yes, house prices in Australia are also insane, but at least the wages and weather are better and I get to have a fun adventure. Most people I know who went to Australia never came back and I intend not to if I can find a company to sponsor me for full citizenship. I can only see this new trade deal exacerbating the labour shortage as I doubt many Australian's will be jumping to get over here in return considering what's happening.