8 ms·

iPhones and iPads Now Require a Passcode on Every Backup/Sync

122 points by zdw 4y ago

taspeotis 4y ago
The title says “every backup” but in fact it is not every backup: > iCloud backups don’t suffer from this requirement
- n0tth3dro1ds 4y ago
  Less friction for the option that scores Apple some sweet, sweet recurring revenue.
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
    Be that as it may, grossly incorrect, misleading, sensational headlines is precisely why a lot of people don't care for journalism anymore.
  - brookst 4y ago
    Are you saying you’re good with factually incorrect headlines as long as they kind of punish a company for some kind of speculative conspiracy?
    - winterqt 4y ago
      What would be the factually incorrect headline you're talking about, are you directly referencing the simplification that the OP's headline does, or a fictional headline?
  - scarface74 4y ago
    Yes because there aren’t any security concerns about being able to connect your device to a computer without requiring a passcode where the computer can slurp up all of your data.
- crazygringo 4y ago
  Yes, obviously we can't change the article headline, but the HN headline needs to be fixed, because it's blatantly incorrect.
neilv 4y ago
Sounds like a great way to desensitize people to very important security warnings (which will have similar prompts for passwords) and to discourage backups (make it more annoying).
- mynameisvlad 4y ago
  Realistically, who is this affecting? How many people are actually relying or even using local backups? I certainly haven't as long as iCloud Backups have been a thing because they've been miles ahead in terms of UX and general use since they were released. They're on by default and automatic. At the end of the day, this might desensitize the 5 power users who still use local backups, and they are probably harder to desensitize than most.
LeoPanthera 4y ago
Misleading headline: This is only true for backups to a computer over a USB cable.
- tinus_hn 4y ago
  It also happens for backups to a computer over wifi.
- fortran77 4y ago
  Not according to the linked article! The claim is that WiFi backups are similarly affected.
  - TavsiE9s 4y ago
    Can confirm, backups over WiFi are affected as well.
benguild 4y ago
I’ll cross post what I wrote to folks on the MacRumors forum: I believe this may be an intentional change to temporarily avoid a security issue, which otherwise hadn't been fixed yet: https://theevilbit.github.io/posts/cve-2022-32929/ https://theevilbit.github.io/posts/cve-2022-32929/ (as shown in the blog post and embedded Twitter thread linked earlier) > The issue is that an attacker can invoke the `AppleMobileBackup` utility and make a backup to a custom location. Thus completely bypassing the protected backup location. The issue was "fixed" on the macOS side by updating the binary to not support this behavior, but the problem is that you can still swap in a binary from an older version of macOS to get around this. So, presumably, the problem is blocked from the iOS side now until the issue is resolved from the iOS side to make the older macOS binaries not work with newer iOS. I think it's safe to assume there wasn't time to fix this fully (since it needs to behave differently depending on the version of macOS making the request to avoid making older Macs entirely incompatible despite the prompt) and therefore the fix is temporary, but it would be a shame if it was permanent.
- layer8 4y ago
  Here is the relevant MacRumors thread, if someone wants to follow it: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/always-asking-trust-this-computer-merged.2365348/ https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/always-asking-trust-thi... I’m not holding my breath though for Apple to fix this.
- notpushkin 4y ago
  I think the old binaries can be patched for new iOS. Or new binaries can be patched for custom backup locations. Or perhaps the open source libimobiledevice [1] can be used somehow. In any case, requiring passcode might be a good permanent solution after all.
- KennyBlanken 4y ago
  I don't think it's to avoid a security issue. Almost any Mac made in the last 5+ years has had sufficient security to stand up to nearly nation-state attacks on its disk contents. What I think is far more likely: it's a dark pattern to discourage people from doing their own backups. One of selling points of iCloud is scaring people into the possibility of their stuff being lost from their phone getting destroyed/lost/stolen. Up until this change was implemented, it was painless and transparent to do backups of your phone. You just needed to have your Mac or Windows computer turned on and your phone on WiFi with power. It Just Happens. This is also a convenient way for law enforcement to get people's iMessage history, because iMessage backs up by default to iCloud, unencrypted, including the user's iCloud encryption keys. Without this, if LEOs wanted a criminal's messages they'd have to pound sand. We know that the FBI has at least a somewhat sympathetic ear at Apple, probably because keeping the FBI happy means Congress doesn't start applying levers on the company. Given the timing which is right after they deployed the enhanced iCloud security that supposedly E2EE's everything in a (again, supposedly) very secure way, I suspect this was a tradeoff they made to keep the FBI/Congress happy, while also boosting revenue. 'Hey, we'll nerf the local backups, and don't worry too much about enhanced security, most people won't turn it on because it's a pain and we'll put scary warnings on it.'
walterbell 4y ago
Is there a way to restore a backup to a Supervised device?
easton 4y ago
The alternative they described (make it so AppleMobileBackup required a passcode only when changing the backup location) would require the phone knowing the location of the backup and trusting the other side wasn’t lying. Might’ve been too complicated to do (especially in a way that could be applied to older versions of macOS/iTunes where AppleMobileBackup wasn’t updated).
chanandler_bong 4y ago
"...an attacker with physical access to your Mac and device..." If someone has physical access to my Mac, I've got more things to worry about than them swiping my phone data.
- scarface74 4y ago
  If someone has physical access to my encrypted Mac with a password, what am I worried about more than a stolen device? Sure it’s a headache. But I have insurance.
bamboozled 4y ago
Does anyone else hate the way it's now a requirement to enter your password for an App store purchase? What is the point of that? I recently upgraded my phone and I didn't have this happen before? What's annoying for me is I use a very strong password, which is stored in my password safe, which isn't compatible with this prompt, so I basically just stopped buying things from the App store, problem solved?
- Gigachad 4y ago
  I half believe they do it to get everyone to remember their password since if you forget it, you can't factory reset your device and it becomes unsellable.
  - Sakos 4y ago
    I wish Microsoft would do this. A lot of people have setup a PIN to login to Windows and forget their password (and have no idea that there's a difference or what a Microsoft account is or how to access theirs), then get locked out of their account. There are also plenty of places where the PIN isn't an option (like the recovery console).
    - alexdbird 4y ago
      I think this is an under-appreciated piece of UX. Authy get it, they prompt you to enter your backup password, just to check you know it, but you can skip so it doesn't get in your way when you're in a hurry. I have one bank that never re-prompts for their passcode, and I've been locked out of the app since I got a new phone and put the wrong code in; because they name everything differently from all the other banks too. N.B. I can see the same accounts via my business login and phoning them is pain, so...
      - auguzanellato 4y ago
        On the topic of banks: I have an account with an Italian bank that is also one of the biggest European banks, when I switched phone they asked me for (iirc) 3 different codes plus an additional sms otp, after that they first disconnected my old phone from the account and then they asked for my debit card PIN which I didn't remember because my card was replaced less than a month ago. I was then locked out from my account and I still didn't manage to get back in. To be fair I didn't even try to call their customer support, I just drained the account using Apple Pay which luckily was still working.
tempodox 4y ago
> I’m not one to subscribe to conspiracy theories about Apple using security as an excuse to push people into paying for iCloud+, but this poorly implemented solution doesn’t instill confidence. Make no mistake, Apple has no compunctions whatsoever to use incessant nagging and degraded user experience to push you where they want you.
- scarface74 4y ago
  Right. Because so many people in 2023 actually connect iPhones and iPads to computers especially Windows users who make up the vast majority of iOS users
  - TavsiE9s 4y ago
    Up until this change I was using iMazing on Windows to have daily local backups of my devices. It supports backing up via WiFi. Now it nags me every day to enter my passcode on my devices. :-(
    - scarface74 4y ago
      Yes I’m absolutely sure that you are representative of most users. Besides, you should want an extra level of security before someone can connect your phone to a computer and slurp up all of your data.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- avgcorrection 4y ago
  The theory that Apple is doing something in order to get more money is a conspiracy theory? Call it a profit theory instead. Could be wrong, could be right, but it’s no more a conspiracy than planning a Friday party.
WirelessGigabit 4y ago
Of course iCloud is exempt. And now I am stuck. Either I shell out $ for their backup, or I need to enter my pin at random moments... And when I don't wish to spend money, I am stuck with a bug(?) where my iCloud backup is > 5GB even when I uncheck _ALL_ things. It's a ruse to make me spend money.
- scarface74 4y ago
  You really don’t see the security threat of not requiring a passcode before allowing a backup to a computer?
  - georgyo 4y ago
    Your argument is the same for iCloud backup, which does not require a passcode. A simple method is to make the backup encrypted, where it leaves your device encrypted. This is once again Apple forcing people to pay for more Apple products under the guise of security.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      How is the argument in any way similar? iCloud is a known destination that the iPhone can easily verify.
      - pxmpxm 4y ago
        As opposed to the computer you've set up to trust? MITM is a vector for either.
        scarface74 4y ago
        You might have set your computer to trust. But there is nothing stopping someone else from making your phone think it’s a trusted computer. That’s the entire point.
        4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Khaine 4y ago
As someone who recently bought iMazing to do regular local backups of iOS and iPadOS devices, this is really annoying. Although I have only noticed it impacting my iPad. It doesn't impact my iPhone. Regardless, I hope Apple come up with a better solution.
sizzzzlerz 4y ago
When this passcode requirement started appearing some months ago, my first thought was what broke? I searched apple.com multiple times as well as other apple-specific sites to try and find out what happened and how I can turn it off because its really annoying. And I found absolutely nothing. Nobody was reporting on it anywhere. This is the first article I've seen the documents what's going on and that it is intentional. Now that I know, I hate it even more. But it still pisses me off that Apple instituted this policy but never mentioned it.
solarkraft 4y ago
> For most people, however, I recommend iCloud backups because they happen automatically, without any human interaction. The cynic in me says that this is exactly why they're doing it. And that's why I tend to boycott services from device manufacturers - the incentives are all wrong.
solarkraft 4y ago
This must break a lot of workflows. Backing up automatically and to a custom location is exactly something I'd like to do if I had an iPhone (no, I won't use iCloud).
zwilliamson 4y ago
I like how bugs are spun as features with Apple software now. It seems there is no accountability at Apple. I struggle with iCloud, message syncing, and Siri daily. If I was CEO I would be upset with the quality of software running on customer devices and would be holding product and engineering accountable. I’m in the process of moving to better purpose built products. System76 for general compute, and Garmin for health and activity tracking. I’m hoping for the Fairphone to land in USA soon so I can transition to it. Also, spending time on a solid home server setup and leaning on Home Assistant community to provide an ideal smart home. HomeKit is just another walled garden that will harm IoT advancement.

122 points by zdw 4y ago

taspeotis 4y ago

The title says “every backup” but in fact it is not every backup: > iCloud backups don’t suffer from this requirement

n0tth3dro1ds 4y ago
Less friction for the option that scores Apple some sweet, sweet recurring revenue.
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  Be that as it may, grossly incorrect, misleading, sensational headlines is precisely why a lot of people don't care for journalism anymore.
- brookst 4y ago
  Are you saying you’re good with factually incorrect headlines as long as they kind of punish a company for some kind of speculative conspiracy?
  - winterqt 4y ago
    What would be the factually incorrect headline you're talking about, are you directly referencing the simplification that the OP's headline does, or a fictional headline?
- scarface74 4y ago
  Yes because there aren’t any security concerns about being able to connect your device to a computer without requiring a passcode where the computer can slurp up all of your data.
crazygringo 4y ago
Yes, obviously we can't change the article headline, but the HN headline needs to be fixed, because it's blatantly incorrect.

neilv 4y ago

Sounds like a great way to desensitize people to very important security warnings (which will have similar prompts for passwords) and to discourage backups (make it more annoying).

mynameisvlad 4y ago
Realistically, who is this affecting? How many people are actually relying or even using local backups? I certainly haven't as long as iCloud Backups have been a thing because they've been miles ahead in terms of UX and general use since they were released. They're on by default and automatic. At the end of the day, this might desensitize the 5 power users who still use local backups, and they are probably harder to desensitize than most.

LeoPanthera 4y ago

Misleading headline: This is only true for backups to a computer over a USB cable.

tinus_hn 4y ago
It also happens for backups to a computer over wifi.
fortran77 4y ago
Not according to the linked article! The claim is that WiFi backups are similarly affected.
- TavsiE9s 4y ago
  Can confirm, backups over WiFi are affected as well.

benguild 4y ago

I’ll cross post what I wrote to folks on the MacRumors forum: I believe this may be an intentional change to temporarily avoid a security issue, which otherwise hadn't been fixed yet: https://theevilbit.github.io/posts/cve-2022-32929/ https://theevilbit.github.io/posts/cve-2022-32929/ (as shown in the blog post and embedded Twitter thread linked earlier) > The issue is that an attacker can invoke the `AppleMobileBackup` utility and make a backup to a custom location. Thus completely bypassing the protected backup location. The issue was "fixed" on the macOS side by updating the binary to not support this behavior, but the problem is that you can still swap in a binary from an older version of macOS to get around this. So, presumably, the problem is blocked from the iOS side now until the issue is resolved from the iOS side to make the older macOS binaries not work with newer iOS. I think it's safe to assume there wasn't time to fix this fully (since it needs to behave differently depending on the version of macOS making the request to avoid making older Macs entirely incompatible despite the prompt) and therefore the fix is temporary, but it would be a shame if it was permanent.

layer8 4y ago
Here is the relevant MacRumors thread, if someone wants to follow it: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/always-asking-trust-this-computer-merged.2365348/ https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/always-asking-trust-thi... I’m not holding my breath though for Apple to fix this.
notpushkin 4y ago
I think the old binaries can be patched for new iOS. Or new binaries can be patched for custom backup locations. Or perhaps the open source libimobiledevice [1] can be used somehow. In any case, requiring passcode might be a good permanent solution after all.
KennyBlanken 4y ago
I don't think it's to avoid a security issue. Almost any Mac made in the last 5+ years has had sufficient security to stand up to nearly nation-state attacks on its disk contents. What I think is far more likely: it's a dark pattern to discourage people from doing their own backups. One of selling points of iCloud is scaring people into the possibility of their stuff being lost from their phone getting destroyed/lost/stolen. Up until this change was implemented, it was painless and transparent to do backups of your phone. You just needed to have your Mac or Windows computer turned on and your phone on WiFi with power. It Just Happens. This is also a convenient way for law enforcement to get people's iMessage history, because iMessage backs up by default to iCloud, unencrypted, including the user's iCloud encryption keys. Without this, if LEOs wanted a criminal's messages they'd have to pound sand. We know that the FBI has at least a somewhat sympathetic ear at Apple, probably because keeping the FBI happy means Congress doesn't start applying levers on the company. Given the timing which is right after they deployed the enhanced iCloud security that supposedly E2EE's everything in a (again, supposedly) very secure way, I suspect this was a tradeoff they made to keep the FBI/Congress happy, while also boosting revenue. 'Hey, we'll nerf the local backups, and don't worry too much about enhanced security, most people won't turn it on because it's a pain and we'll put scary warnings on it.'

walterbell 4y ago

Is there a way to restore a backup to a Supervised device?

easton 4y ago

The alternative they described (make it so AppleMobileBackup required a passcode only when changing the backup location) would require the phone knowing the location of the backup and trusting the other side wasn’t lying. Might’ve been too complicated to do (especially in a way that could be applied to older versions of macOS/iTunes where AppleMobileBackup wasn’t updated).

chanandler_bong 4y ago

"...an attacker with physical access to your Mac and device..." If someone has physical access to my Mac, I've got more things to worry about than them swiping my phone data.

scarface74 4y ago
If someone has physical access to my encrypted Mac with a password, what am I worried about more than a stolen device? Sure it’s a headache. But I have insurance.

bamboozled 4y ago

Does anyone else hate the way it's now a requirement to enter your password for an App store purchase? What is the point of that? I recently upgraded my phone and I didn't have this happen before? What's annoying for me is I use a very strong password, which is stored in my password safe, which isn't compatible with this prompt, so I basically just stopped buying things from the App store, problem solved?

Gigachad 4y ago
I half believe they do it to get everyone to remember their password since if you forget it, you can't factory reset your device and it becomes unsellable.
- Sakos 4y ago
  I wish Microsoft would do this. A lot of people have setup a PIN to login to Windows and forget their password (and have no idea that there's a difference or what a Microsoft account is or how to access theirs), then get locked out of their account. There are also plenty of places where the PIN isn't an option (like the recovery console).
  - alexdbird 4y ago
    I think this is an under-appreciated piece of UX. Authy get it, they prompt you to enter your backup password, just to check you know it, but you can skip so it doesn't get in your way when you're in a hurry. I have one bank that never re-prompts for their passcode, and I've been locked out of the app since I got a new phone and put the wrong code in; because they name everything differently from all the other banks too. N.B. I can see the same accounts via my business login and phoning them is pain, so...
    - auguzanellato 4y ago
      On the topic of banks: I have an account with an Italian bank that is also one of the biggest European banks, when I switched phone they asked me for (iirc) 3 different codes plus an additional sms otp, after that they first disconnected my old phone from the account and then they asked for my debit card PIN which I didn't remember because my card was replaced less than a month ago. I was then locked out from my account and I still didn't manage to get back in. To be fair I didn't even try to call their customer support, I just drained the account using Apple Pay which luckily was still working.

tempodox 4y ago

> I’m not one to subscribe to conspiracy theories about Apple using security as an excuse to push people into paying for iCloud+, but this poorly implemented solution doesn’t instill confidence. Make no mistake, Apple has no compunctions whatsoever to use incessant nagging and degraded user experience to push you where they want you.

scarface74 4y ago
Right. Because so many people in 2023 actually connect iPhones and iPads to computers especially Windows users who make up the vast majority of iOS users
- TavsiE9s 4y ago
  Up until this change I was using iMazing on Windows to have daily local backups of my devices. It supports backing up via WiFi. Now it nags me every day to enter my passcode on my devices. :-(
  - scarface74 4y ago
    Yes I’m absolutely sure that you are representative of most users. Besides, you should want an extra level of security before someone can connect your phone to a computer and slurp up all of your data.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
avgcorrection 4y ago
The theory that Apple is doing something in order to get more money is a conspiracy theory? Call it a profit theory instead. Could be wrong, could be right, but it’s no more a conspiracy than planning a Friday party.

WirelessGigabit 4y ago

Of course iCloud is exempt. And now I am stuck. Either I shell out $ for their backup, or I need to enter my pin at random moments... And when I don't wish to spend money, I am stuck with a bug(?) where my iCloud backup is > 5GB even when I uncheck _ALL_ things. It's a ruse to make me spend money.

scarface74 4y ago
You really don’t see the security threat of not requiring a passcode before allowing a backup to a computer?
- georgyo 4y ago
  Your argument is the same for iCloud backup, which does not require a passcode. A simple method is to make the backup encrypted, where it leaves your device encrypted. This is once again Apple forcing people to pay for more Apple products under the guise of security.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    How is the argument in any way similar? iCloud is a known destination that the iPhone can easily verify.
    - pxmpxm 4y ago
      As opposed to the computer you've set up to trust? MITM is a vector for either.
      - scarface74 4y ago
        You might have set your computer to trust. But there is nothing stopping someone else from making your phone think it’s a trusted computer. That’s the entire point.
        4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Khaine 4y ago

As someone who recently bought iMazing to do regular local backups of iOS and iPadOS devices, this is really annoying. Although I have only noticed it impacting my iPad. It doesn't impact my iPhone. Regardless, I hope Apple come up with a better solution.

sizzzzlerz 4y ago

When this passcode requirement started appearing some months ago, my first thought was what broke? I searched apple.com multiple times as well as other apple-specific sites to try and find out what happened and how I can turn it off because its really annoying. And I found absolutely nothing. Nobody was reporting on it anywhere. This is the first article I've seen the documents what's going on and that it is intentional. Now that I know, I hate it even more. But it still pisses me off that Apple instituted this policy but never mentioned it.

solarkraft 4y ago

> For most people, however, I recommend iCloud backups because they happen automatically, without any human interaction. The cynic in me says that this is exactly why they're doing it. And that's why I tend to boycott services from device manufacturers - the incentives are all wrong.

solarkraft 4y ago

This must break a lot of workflows. Backing up automatically and to a custom location is exactly something I'd like to do if I had an iPhone (no, I won't use iCloud).

zwilliamson 4y ago

I like how bugs are spun as features with Apple software now. It seems there is no accountability at Apple. I struggle with iCloud, message syncing, and Siri daily. If I was CEO I would be upset with the quality of software running on customer devices and would be holding product and engineering accountable. I’m in the process of moving to better purpose built products. System76 for general compute, and Garmin for health and activity tracking. I’m hoping for the Fairphone to land in USA soon so I can transition to it. Also, spending time on a solid home server setup and leaning on Home Assistant community to provide an ideal smart home. HomeKit is just another walled garden that will harm IoT advancement.