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U.S. safety agency to consider ban on gas stoves amid health fears
- tinglymintyfrsh 4y agoWha? Chefs will be up in arms.
- neonate 4y agohttps://archive.md/HkO2p https://archive.md/HkO2p
- smileysteve 4y agoI moved into a brand new house of which the only stovetop option was gas, in part because of marketing dollars from our local monopoly granted utility. Why was induction not an option? And now to upgrade, I'm going to have to have a 240v line installed to the location.
- mhb 4y agoSo you should have bought a different house? Or what?
- multiplegeorges 4y agoYou can definitely get 120v induction cooktops. There's no need for 240v.
- smileysteve 4y agoi do have a single burner induction unit, but to have 5 or 6 burners you need more watts from 240
- falcolas 4y agoRunning 5-6 burners concurrently is definitely a bit of a niche case, and would probably justify the higher amperage socket. But it's important to note that it's niche, most folks won't use more than 2.
- driverdan 4y agoYou chose to buy it that way. Why didn't you make installing a 240v plug a concession in the contract?
- Loughla 4y agoTwo questions: What about LP ranges, which are pretty common as well? What about proper ventilation systems instead? Most people have range hoods that vent into the same room (doing nothing but removing the largest particulates). Why not place exterior vents into building codes, instead of eliminating gas ranges? You'll pry my gas range from my cold, dead hands. Cooking on fire is, for me, just better than cooking on electric.
- multiplegeorges 4y agoHave you tried an induction range? Same power (or more, imo, i was shocked at how quickly I could boil a pot of water) than gas and very small power steps for great and accurate temperature control. If this ban goes through, I expect induction to take over in the upper range of products. It'll bring the prices WAY down and it'll be much cheaper to get new pots than it is to install a proper outdoor-venting range hood.
- peteradio 4y agoInduction has major issues with hot spots, if you are boiling water you don't care, otherwise you might.
- Steltek 4y agoCan you recommend a large cast iron griddle that 100% works on induction? That's no joke the biggest sticking point for us right now. The closest we can find is "square frying pan" style. The 2 Lodge griddles are double sided, which isn't guaranteed to work on induction because the bottom surface doesn't sit flush with the glass. You can't replace pans when there are no induction friendly replacements. Edit: Edit: Nevermind, I was wrong.
- sbradford26 4y agoBasically any cast iron pan should work. Also the bottom of the pan doesn't need to be perfectly flush with the glass. I know people who leave silicone mats on their induction cooktops while cooking so that their cast iron pans don't scratch the glass
- thatcherc 4y agoHere's another article that seems to be a summary of the Bloomberg article (but without the paywall) - [0] The ban under consideration seems to be a ban on the sale of new gas stoves, although I don't think the article actually says that explicitly. [0] - https://financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/us-safety-agency-to-consider-ban-on-gas-stoves-amid-health-fears https://financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/us-safety-agency-...
- Saoshyant 4y agoThat's usually how these things go. No one is going to everyone's house to remove their stoves, regardless of how accurate the claims of their dangers. Instead, they abolish the sale of new gas stoves and, as the old ones stop working with age, eventually they disappear altogether. I believe that's how there's still old buildings with an asbestos treatment or old water pipes made out of lead kind of all over the place. It was widespread at first, then the issues became known, then they were forbidden from being sold, and eventually the existing old ones are replaced as opportunity allows.
- 2devnull 4y agoSince low income people don’t occupy new construction, and given that gas stoves last for many decades, this is legislation that won’t have any impact for another 20 or 30 years? Besides the impact on wealthy foodies who want good stovetops in the kitchen remodels?
- 2devnull 4y agoImportant clarification.
- wankle 4y ago"In a letter to the agency in December, lawmakers including Senator Cory Booker of New Jersey and Representative Don Beyer of Virginia, both Democrats, urged action and called gas-stove emissions a “cumulative burden” on Black, Latino and low-income households that disproportionately experience air pollution. " Most of my life I've live in homes with gas stoves, I'm white, what does race have to do with it? I'd guess > 90% of the entirety of stoves in Texas are gas.
- throwaway82388 4y agoI’m fairly certain that I’ve yet to visit an upper middle class household without a high end gas range, albeit hooded. Surely this disproportionally affects the foodies and amateur chefs of the world.
- slowmovintarget 4y agoGot to ban it for everyone to be fair.
- nivenkos 4y agoThe Democrats have to bring race-based politics and IdPol in to everything. But I think the bigger issue is whether current users even want to make the switch, since gas is often cheaper than electricity. This slowed down adoption of induction cookers a lot in the UK for example.
- Spivak 4y agoYou have it backwards. The Dems aren’t bringing race into it, they’re framing the issue in a way more likely to garner support from their fellow Democrats and base who care about helping marginalized communities. You see this a lot with Supreme Court cases where the legal teams form their arguments specially to be persuasive to a specific swing judge.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- endisneigh 4y agoClassic government overreach. From the "peer reviewed" research only about 20% of households live in households where the gas stove is used with proper ventilation. In other words, about 80% of households that have gas stoves use the exhaust improperly or not at all, yet only 13% of childhood asthma is attributed to gas stove. Simple Bayesian reasoning suggests that most of those are because people are not using their exhaust. Even if inductive stoves were used exclusively, cooking food that results in burning without exhaust is bad for you. Rather than a ridiculously excessive ban, why not just tell people to use their stove and exhaust properly, or have new installations include an automatically turned on exhaust to the outside of the house? Monoxide sensors are already a thing smh. Instead, we'll have a bunch of inductive stoves (which are great, by the way), that are substantially more expensive than their equivalent gas stoves, and the government will continue to lament the small marginal increases in housing year after year after year.
- multiplegeorges 4y agoSurely you can see how induction would become much, much cheaper with mass production and adoption after this ban comes into place. Cheap to retrofit, no emissions, no fossil fuel use. Induction is pretty much better in all conceivable ways.
- endisneigh 4y agoSure it'll become cheaper, but it still would be more expensive than a gas range. A gas stove is very simple. Furthermore the use of gas heating per the study are in the coldest places - the same places that are using fossil fuels to heat anyway, even with new construction. This is not to say that we shouldn't move towards induction and heat pumps, but doing this under the guise of safety is disingenuous. The real issue is improper cooking procedure. If the government wants to encourage emission free heating and cooking they should simply offer rebates, which some counties are beginning to do.
- giardini 4y agoAnd the gas stove still works during hurricanes.
- birracerveza 4y agoWhat a coincidence that this is being considered only after a war broke out with gas being at the forefront... Not that I mind honestly, it needs to be supplanted asap, but still...
- vena 4y agothe US doesn’t really import natgas.
- birracerveza 4y agoThe EU does.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- vena 4y agothis is a proposed ban for the US.
- birracerveza 4y agoYes, but the EU would immediately follow suit.
- Steltek 4y agoThe age old story of the EU lagging behind the US in regulation. (snort) What is the EU marketshare on stoves? As an importer, could EU natgas already have a premium attached that reduces any impact from regulation?
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y agoSneak a gas stove ban past the public when they are angry about high natural gas prices?
- mhb 4y agoLast paragraph: “Ventilation is really where this discussion should be, rather than banning one particular type of technology,” said Jill Notini, a vice president with the Washington-based trade group. “Banning one type of a cooking appliance is not going to address the concerns about overall indoor air quality. We may need some behavior change, we may need [people] to turn on their hoods when cooking.”
- FiloSottile 4y agoTrade groups suggesting personal behavior changes to address systemic issues with the thing they sell are such a standard playbook that I am surprised it still works.
- mhb 4y agoSo you're saying she's wrong?
- formerly_proven 4y agoThat's the point, it isn't. Just like reducing your carbon footprint is good for climate change. Is that an effective way of dealing with climate change? No.
- FiloSottile 4y agoYes. I am saying the whole concept of public health and safety (as well as information security) is based on the observation that you can't just "tell people to change a behavior". It's like saying that electrical rules in building codes are overreach, because people can just avoid touching exposed wires.
- mhb 4y agoOK. So the clause trade groups suggesting is just ad hominem noise. Maybe your point is that making cooking appliances more expensive to improve them in one dimension is worthwhile since it is greater than a person's benefits in some other life dimension.
- debacle 4y agoI don't believe for a second that this has anything to do with safety. There is an imprudent war on fossil fuels going on in this country, that is well intentioned but poorly thought out. And to frame this as a DEI issue is just icing on the cake.
- ClumsyPilot 4y agoI wish it was like a real war, I'd be rich just from making ebikes! We spent over 3 trillion on war in Afghanistan, manifacturers of weapons made a killing! We also made decisions in days that would destroy lives of millions. Today installing a single wind turbine take 4 years of consultation and planning approvals. So np, its not a war, not by mpney spent, not by decisionmaking authority
- giardini 4y agoI hear exploding e-bikes are the coming thing in the Ukraine - and you're already halfway there!
- kshahkshah 4y agoThere are real wars happening all the time because of fossil fuels as well as a lot of dealing with horrific petrostates which inflict misery on everyone because of our dependency on fossil fuels. What you're talking about is the home front of that war. Agree on framing it as DEI is largely non-sense but I'm curious what you specifically mean by poorly thought out.
- Someone1234 4y agoThe thing I find shocking is how many US homes I've been in that have a gas stove AND "fake" oven hood (essentially it filters and recirculate, instead of venting outside, which does little to nothing for gas fumes). If they decide against outright banning them, there must be a push during inspection to associate a gas stove with a real oven hood, and ideally some consumer education that: "Gas on, vent fan running" or similar. If a gas stove was invented today, if you compare it to regulation for other gas appliances (specifically how the fumes are vented), it would almost certainly have an interlock wherein a hood turns itself on to auto-vent outside.
- foobarian 4y agoI find it fascinating how different the cooking is in Europe vs. US. at least in my limited experience. I've seen multiple apartments across Italy where the kitchen is a small, separate chamber with a door where the resident will get a skillet red hot, drop a piece of meat on it, and open the window. This would be unthinkable in the US - it would set off every single smoke detector in the house. Maybe it's not cause and effect, but just an emergent state - it's difficult to do this here so on average it doesn't happen? Or people tend to have grills outside for this sort of thing? I don't know. In our house the stove is located centrally and I dread to think how we could retrofit an exhaust for a true venting hood. All we have is a fake hood with a grease filter above the stove.
- Gigachad 4y agoPersonally I just avoid cooking smoky foods because setting off the smoke detector calls the fire department after a few minutes which costs $1000. Cook the stuff that’s easy at home. And go out for the rest.
- soared 4y agoWhere do you live? I’ve never heard of either of those things happening!
- 4y ago
- amluto 4y agoSometimes I’m amazed that gas stoves aren’t regulated for fire safety much more heavily: Gas stoves quickly ignite any kindling near the flame. Electric (radiant) stoves can ignore things but it’s slower and there’s more shouldering first. It’s hard to start a fire with induction, especially temperature controlled induction, although the latter is not widely deployed. A child or careless adult can easily turn a stove on by accident. A gas stove left on is an extreme hazard. An electric stove left on is a mild hazard. An induction stove left on is only a hazard at all if there’s cookware on it, and it’s the safest of the three. A gas stove that’s on but not burning will release explosive gas. I’ve never seen one with a credible safety feature to prevent an explosion. Not to mention: Gas stoves are incredibly inefficient. Electric is pretty inefficient too. Induction is highly effective. And gas stoves apparently pollute quite badly. Sure, a good vent will mitigate it, but then you need makeup air to avoid other issues, and you still lose conditioned air.
- sschueller 4y agoInduction is very cool but what sucks is touch flat buttons on the top surface of most induction stove top that either trigger when you spill something or don't trigger when your fingers are wet. Why can't we just keep the knobs that worked for decades and combine that with the new tech? This is what prevents the "average person" from going with something new when they are in the market for a replacement.
- sbradford26 4y agoThere are induction cooktops that have knobs. I believe one of the Frigidaire professional models has knobs on it. I think the main reason why induction cooktops typically don't have buttons is because it allows the surface to be used like more countertop. Frigidaire Professional Cooktop: https://www.frigidaire.com/Kitchen-Appliances/Cooktops/Induction-Cooktops/FPIC3677RF/ https://www.frigidaire.com/Kitchen-Appliances/Cooktops/Induc...
- tpxl 4y ago> don't have buttons is because it allows the surface to be used like more countertop My induction stovetop gets really angry at me if I place anything remotely near the buttons, be it wood, metal or cloth.
- lm28469 4y agoGod forbid we regulate sodas, cigarettes, junk food though. Those deadly gas stoves are definitely a top priority and a menace to our society !! "health fear" lmao give me a break
- mensetmanusman 4y agoSubsidize air-filters as a short/medium term solution, because this also solves the issue of plastic dust being breathed in from all the fabrics, carpets, appliances, couches, rugs, shoes, shirts, etc.
- falcolas 4y agoAir filters are incapable of filtering out NO2.
- Scoundreller 4y agoAs a resident in a newer condo build, I’d just like windows that open more than 2”. I have a corner unit where the windows on one side don’t open at all. I guess it cuts down on their building-wide HVAC expenses by treating the building as airtight and thinking filtration and powered-venting will solve all problems.
- dzhiurgis 4y agoMini hrv is like $200
- Someone1234 4y agoPM2.5 Air Filters do not remove the gasses and VOCs released from burning natural gas.
- mensetmanusman 4y agoThey could incorporate desiccant column subsidy: https://www.clariant.com/en/Solutions/Products/2020/11/09/21/58/DESVOCANT https://www.clariant.com/en/Solutions/Products/2020/11/09/21.... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2212609013000058 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221260901...
- newbee123 4y agoThis whole article smells. Trumka has been a union politico most of his career, not a science or health & safety guy. The paper they cite is a meta-study, and it's curious that the meta is inspiring more action than any of the original papers[0]. That, and the primary researcher is from an "environmental" nonprofit (rocky mountain institute) rather than a health & safety one, and the board of this nonprofit consists mostly of private equity & energy guys[1]. [0] https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/20/1/75 https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/20/1/75 [1] https://rmi.org/about/board-of-trustees/ https://rmi.org/about/board-of-trustees/
- giardini 4y agoBut what does it smell like - Southern BBQ, fish, lobster, shish kebab, etc.? mmmm!
- newbee123 4y agoSmells bad. Had a similar experience buying an "eco-friendly" crib mattress. "Made with soy", green seal of approval from some eco non-profit. Dig a little deeper, turns out to be made of (flammable, off-gassing, non-biodegradable) polyurethane foam--soybean oil was just the feedstock. Checked out the eco non-profit's website... Turns out everyone on the board is a chemical industry lobbyist. This natural gas story has the same structure. Fund a non-profit to cherry-pick papers into a new metastudy, bribe a few politicians or an agency head to put the force of law behind it, and as soon as the ball starts rolling, place a few bets, profit.
- steponlego 4y ago[flagged]
- NDizzle 4y agoAhh yes, switch everyone to electric power when everything is going green and the rolling brown/blackouts are spreading across the nation and world. No thanks, let's keep our gas.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- mstef 4y agowhat a coincidence this article was just 4h ago linked here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34308734 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34308734 and is similar policymaker influencing pseudo science conflating correlation and causation...
- notvaxed 4y agoThis is just more Biden veiled attack on fossil fuels pushing electric stoves and ovens. Fuck the Democrats I just bought a full on wood fired oven and stove from the Amish. My back up being a Propane stove oven and electric once I am fully photo voltaic off the grid.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- SAI_Peregrinus 4y agoA number of people in Buffalo, NY, recently lost power for several days due to a blizzard. The city had to clear snow with front-end loaders and dump trucks, which took about 4 days. Without power, many apartments had no heat (no way to run a blower motor for air heat, electronic control of the boiler, heat pump, or other electric-dependent heating). A number of people were able to survive by heating pots of water on gas stoves and letting it sit to get a bit of heat. Not the use of gas you want to have, but invaluable if it's all you've got!
- diordiderot 4y agoYeab unfortunately liquid hydrocarbons are the only way to store large volumes of energy in the 21st century. I bet there would be a lot of money in inventing some other means.
- SAI_Peregrinus 4y agoLess about storage, and more a convenient coincidence that transferring gas via underground pipeline is substantially safer than above-ground pipeline, and thus gas companies pay the extra to bury the lines. Electric can be run underground, but the danger of above-ground lines isn't nearly as high as gas would be so electric companies (at least in this area) run overhead lines which are vulnerable to storm damage.
- kylehotchkiss 4y agoHaving some camping sized cooking gear in your emergency bag seems like a good precaution if you have cold winters. Does seem like the apartment communities could be doing more to take care of their residents during storms though.
- dang 4y agoRelated ongoing thread: I measured the pollution from my gas stove - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34316613 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34316613 - Jan 2023 (69 comments) Also: Gas stoves are more hazardous than we’ve been led to believe (2020) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31630946 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31630946 - June 2022 (122 comments) What a gas stove ban means for restaurants - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31603850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31603850 - June 2022 (592 comments) My best estimate is gas stoves decrease life expectancy by 53 days on average - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30275953 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30275953 - Feb 2022 (117 comments) How bad is my gas stove? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29935939 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29935939 - Jan 2022 (520 comments) Cities try to phase out gas stoves but cooks are pushing back - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27874912 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27874912 - July 2021 (481 comments) Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers of gas stoves - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25332332 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25332332 - Dec 2020 (343 comments)
- verall 4y agoI think it's a tad silly but you can buy a butane burner for like $30 from your local Chinese grocery and butane bottles are like $3.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- cute_boi 4y agoor they can recommend people to install vents that actually works?
- Gigachad 4y agoThat’s far more expensive than upgrading your stove to induction.
- cute_boi 4y agois it? We mostly cook food in oils, and those smokes are also dangerous. Thus, Vents are essential. Lastly, I think we pay more in electric stove due to elastic pricing.
- ct0 4y agoHow can you claim such a thing. Most microwaves can vent outside, but theyre not doing it. Not much is needed other than a saw and a outdoor vent hood.
- r2vcap 4y agoI do not live in the United States, but these measures are difficult to understand. In the East Asian country where I live, most people cook with gas. Induction is becoming more popular, but there is no alternative other than gas for high-heat cooking. (And we use charcoal outdoors.) I understand that there are concerns about using gas in the kitchen, but it can be improved with proper maintenance. For example, in our country, gas safety is checked through home visits twice a year. Natural gas is very safe. Even my car runs on LPG. The life expectancy of My country citizens is 83.4 years, more than 6 years longer than that of the United States. It is excessive regulation for the state to regulate cooking means. Why not go against the government? How much do you think life expectancy would increase if gas was banned? Wouldn't it be the first thing to do to regulate guns, drugs and fentanyl?
- vanilla_nut 4y agoI don't think I've ever been inside a US home with adequate ventilation around the gas stove. Most places I've rented have only had internal filtered vents, usually with aged, unclean proprietary filters you couldn't swap out if you wanted to. Among those houses with external vents, most are too small, or don't have enough pull to keep air quality decent in the kitchen while cooking. I used to really like gas stoves, but between the monthly hookup cost and the air quality issues, I'm happy with my current electric stove instead. Maybe once I buy a place, instead of renting, I can finally get induction.
- Tagbert 4y agoI can confirm that our stove indeed does vent to the outdoors in the US. It is on an external wall and you can feel the air coming out when the vent fan is on. It is possible that in apartments the vents may only be filters and not external vents. That seems like a question for the building codes.
- tomohawk 4y agoI really hope they do this. This sort of overreach will galvanize push back.
- fomine3 4y agoGas without exhaust is terrible, of course. I don't know why american built such houses.
- tengbretson 4y agoMaybe their hearts are in the right place—I certainly don't like unhealthy fumes. But making the ability to heat food contingent on the seamless function of international semiconductor supply chains could have unintended consequences.
- tamaharbor 4y agoElectric stoves still use electricity produced by coal.
- timbit42 4y agoNot where I live.
- tamaharbor 4y agoAbout 40% by coal here in Colorado.
- timbit42 4y agoOuch
- smileysteve 4y agoI visited a retirement (with assisted living option) recently and thought, wow, this old conduction coil stove, picturing 1 of the measurements for my own grandmother's independence was her leaving the stove on. My induction single burner has both a visual (touch) interface with audio cues, it has a built in timer, it automatically shuts off when it overheats, it's rapidly cool to the touch, it has a pan removed alarm, it has a built in fan. I think between the distractions (cell phone, TV) and baby boomers, these are a lot safer than gas or conduction. Anecdotally, having recently gone from conduction election to gas, it's weird to realize not only can my tools melt, but they can actually burn if they get too much flame up the side.
- stephen_cagle 4y agoI live in Oakland. There have been many luxury towers built in Oakland in the last few years. The strangest thing to me is that all of them boast about having gas ranges. Always seems a bit surprising that gas is still considered more luxury than electric (induction even)?