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I have a Tesla and I also hold a short position on TSLA. My Tesla is a great car. The best car that I've ever driven but I'm not sure if it has anything that ot

by msoad 4y ago

I have a Tesla and I also hold a short position on TSLA. My Tesla is a great car. The best car that I've ever driven but I'm not sure if it has anything that other car manufacturers can't replicate. I think Apple can make an even better car than Tesla if they build the hardware and software like their phones and computers. The idea that Autopilot has some magic sauce that nobody else can replicate is laughable.

moonchrome 4y ago
> I think Apple can make an even better car than Tesla if they build the hardware and software like their phones and computers. I'm not sure outsourcing manufacturing and focusing on design works in auto industry - but could be wrong.
- jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago
  "Outsourcing" is a very poor way to describe Apple's supply chain. They are deeply integrated. For example Apple owns most of the CNCs and similar equipment used. Having tight control over all logistics is core to Apple's strategy of huge global product launches.
- multiplegeorges 4y ago
  Fisker is trying it and should have a car to market next year. They've been hitting all their targets. They outsource their manufacturing to Magna Steyr.
- papruapap 4y ago
  like how they outsourced their chips, right? They only designed a square with a M1 stamped on it.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- hef19898 4y ago
  It does, Magna's whole business model is based around that.
- dylan604 4y ago
  Huh? The auto industry is famous for outsourcing to plants outside of the country and bring the final cars back in to the country. They are also famous for manufacturing the parts from all of the world, and then assembling them in another country. Apple's "Designed in Cupertino, assembled in ___" is the same thing.
- elil17 4y ago
  You’re wrong. Auto manufacturers source parts from a huge variety of outside manufacturers. Auto manufacturers: 1) manage supply chain (hardest part) 2) spec parts (establish quality metrics, change small aspects of design) 3) come up with car concepts 4) assemble parts certain components (e.g. weld the frame, install all the premade parts) They are not building or designing every component in a car - not even close.
  - moonchrome 4y ago
    I mean what do you expect - for them to build everything down to a screw in-house in order to do manufacturing ? Final assembly, fit and finish - those are very important things on high end cars - and as Tesla demonstrated - not that easy to do even when you're flush with cash. Apple outsources all of it's production - I'd be surprised if they can get premium car assembly from Foxconn model when Tesla is still having issues.
    - elil17 4y ago
      Final assembly, fit and finish aren't really the key part of what they're doing, though. There's no reason they can't outsource that too.
    - badpun 4y ago
      It’s not that they don’t build. They don’t even design a lot of the car components (incl. gear boxes, abs, traction control etc). They’re bough from OEM companies, who design and manufacture them.
    - jonathankoren 4y ago
      > Final assembly, fit and finish - those are very important things on high end cars - and as Tesla demonstrated - not that easy to do even when you're flush with cash Is it that hard though? The initial build problems came from ignoring industry experience about trying to automate final assembly — a step that very manufacture had tried and failed to do before. No shame in trying it, maybe industrial robotic control have improved since then, but you usually don’t test such a thing in your assembly lines. After Tesla ripped out the robots, I don’t know what their problem was beyond poor training and line management. Putting doors on straight — let alone with matching colors — for over a hundred years. If it’s really hard to physically build a car, we’d see similar massive faults from Rivian and Lucid, but I’m unaware of any.
- citrus1330 4y ago
  Even if that were true, you don't think Apple is capable of building out manufacturing capabilities?
- Server6 4y ago
  Foxconn is designing an EV platform specifically for this. https://www.foxconn.com/en-us/products-and-services/event-highlights/strategy-blueprint/electric-vehicle-platform https://www.foxconn.com/en-us/products-and-services/event-hi... We'll see if it works out. Seeing as how they're Apple's biggest partner I'd be surprised if Apple one day doesn't design a car. EV's are simpler, eventually they'll all be fast and have 500 mile ranges. The platform won't matter, so what sells the car? Design.
- mprev 4y ago
  Manga Steyr builds Jaguars, BMWs, Fiskers, and others under just this model.
judge2020 4y ago
The difference seems to be that Tesla was 5-10 years ahead on everything: Minimalistic interiors, modern infotainment, mobile app performance, and of course they lead the way in making electric cars viable by showing that they can both look good and blast off in record time. But you're right that other automakers see Tesla as a threat and are catching up; for example, the range and charging curve improvements on models like the EV6 / Ioniq 5 look great, assuming the charger work [in the cold].
- staunch 4y ago
  > The difference seems to be that Tesla was 5-10 years ahead on everything... This is pretty much the definition of a great tech product: it's ahead of anything else by N years. What makes a great technology company is that they manage to consistently maintain that lead with product after product. We'll see if Tesla can maintain its lead. It's not looking good and it probably depends mostly on whether or not Elon Musk can regain his grip on reality.
  - myko 4y ago
    Tesla has already lost its lead as far as the car itself. The Ioniq is an affordable car and better than Tesla Model 3/Y. Mercedes and BMW have better luxury models with EQS and i7, and the BMW i4 is more fun to drive than a Model 3. The Cadillac Lyriq costs what a Model Y does but compares favorably to the Model X. Tesla interiors feel cheap compared to other cars in their same class and they have notorious build quality issues. They do have one major advantage, which is why I still drive a Model S, and that's the Supercharger network. It's a big deal for anyone who regularly drives a few hundred miles in their EV.
- cainxinth 4y ago
  > Minimalistic interiors, modern infotainment, mobile app performance None of that is why Tesla was ahead of everyone for so long. It's because their cars have better range, and Tesla is still the range leader. They held four of the top six spots in 2022, and the number one is the Lucid Air (only 3k of them have actually been sold): https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/g32634624/ev-longest-driving-range/ https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/g32634624/ev-lo... Also, I just want to say I am categorically not an Elon or Tesla fanboi and I am rooting for other brands to meet and exceed their range performance.
gwbas1c 4y ago
> The idea that Autopilot has some magic sauce that nobody else can replicate is laughable. Apparently GM's Supercruise is better, and cheaper. I got enhanced autopilot in my first Tesla. Except for changing lanes, things like summon and autopark are just toys. The auto lane chance is so glitchy I decided I was better off saving seven grand on my second Tesla. But if Enhanced Autopilot was 1-2 grand, I'd have bought it without regrets.
- FpUser 4y ago
  >"I was better off saving seven grand" Seven grand for a software update sounds like a ripoff. Especially just for lane change.
  - darknavi 4y ago
    Wait until you learn that "Full Self Driving" is $15,000USD right now.
    - FpUser 4y ago
      If it was real, and legally letting one sleep at the wheel someone might pay for it. As it is now - meh. They can have their soft and I'll keep my 15G
- stoddur 4y ago
  Wait what, SuperCruise better then AP? Any sources?
  - gwbas1c 4y ago
    Well, that's highly subjective based on reviewer. But, in general, Supercruise is hands-free and doesn't require jiggling the steering wheel every 30 seconds. From what I understand, Supercruise is a lot more limited in where it'll work, compared to Autopilot. But, EV market options are so limited that the differences really don't matter, unless that kind of functionality is top on your list. In my case, I bought a second Tesla because of the charging network, and because I needed a 3rd row.
fenrisbear 4y ago
Not sure what the general consensus on Tesla in Norway. Sure, they are great cars during the summer, but during the winter they severely lack the robustness of the traditional car manufacturers. One of them being able to open the car door!
- mavhc 4y ago
  Use the app to unlock the door https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_cn/GUID-F907200E-A619-4A95-A0CF-94E0D03BEBEF.html https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_cn/GUID-F907200...
  - nradov 4y ago
    It's hilarious that anyone would consider this an acceptable work around for such an idiotic design flaw.
    - mavhc 4y ago
      It's fine for 99.9% of the time, and saves you energy. Also reduces noise when moving.
    - l33tman 4y ago
      Yeah well that they omit a windshield wiper stalk is also idiotic and furthermore outright dangerous. I've done overtakes next to trailers some times in heavy rain where in a second I had to hit the wiper stalk to max. Relying on their camera-based AI to do that (yes they skip on the cost of the industry standard IR sensor for rain detection) is crazy. A german guy actually died a few years back because he was searching through the UI to find the control to set the wipers to max..
      - AlexandrB 4y ago
        The charitable take on this is that it's an optimistic design that anticipates a future where an AI will deal with all these minor decisions. The cynical take is that it's a cost cutting measure so Tesla can sell cheaply-made cars at premium prices.
samwillis 4y ago
Autopilot [FSD] is a boondoggle that is a distraction from their core mission. They have wasted time and resources on it, when by now they should have a cheaper mass market car and a full suite of commercial vehicles (small vans to large trucks). Edit: yes meant FSD
- aardvarkr 4y ago
  I strongly disagree. Autopilot is what made them COOL and gave them their secret sauce. I used to be a major fan back in 2015 and that was an incredibly momentous initiative that cannot be understated. You can say this now with the benefit of hindsight but do not make the mistake of assuming it was all just a waste of money. Autopilot was a key driver in the hype and fanaticism that turned Tesla from a hip startup into the trendsetter for the entire industry.
  - freejazz 4y ago
    "I strongly disagree. Autopilot is what made them COOL and gave them their secret sauce." To dorks who believed the hype, yeah.
- elteto 4y ago
  Wrong. Autopilot is a pretty standard smart cruise control, which many other carmakers have and have had for years. It works and it works well. You are thinking of FSD.
  - AlexandrB 4y ago
    Tesla's naming continues to suck. It's very common to see people confuse Autopilot with Full Self Driving. I'm not sure this is to Tesla's benefit since every FSD snafu gets attributed to Autopilot as well in the mind of someone not following the company closely.
helen___keller 4y ago
> The idea that Autopilot has some magic sauce that nobody else can replicate is laughable. Openpilot by comma is very equivalent to autopilot (not FSD) and can be added on to a boring cheap car (depending on that car's compatibility) like a prius, corolla, or sonata, all for just about $2,000 dollars. Granted, it's a "dev-kit", requires a bit of research to install, but if you can pass the barrier it's really equivalent to autopilot and available to consumers at a price point that Tesla is not. And if you don't want the latest and greatest (comma 3) you can get a used comma 2 or a comma knock-off "Mr One" for a few hundred dollars and still have an excellent experience for basic level 2 functionality (automated highway navigation, essentially)
wazoox 4y ago
Actually after having tested a couple of other cars, for instance the Renault Megane, the BMW i4 and the Mercedes EQE have better enhanced drive assistance than Tesla. For instance: * when in full-auto on a single lane road, when there's an exit on the right the Tesla 3 almost always slightly swerve towards the exit before coming back in its lane. None of the Megane, the EQE or the BMW i4 do that. * To overtake a slower vehicle, the Megane and i4 are better : simply push the left blinker, then the car switch lanes and accelerates BEFORE having entirely switched lane, like a human driver would do. * The mapping and charge planning on the BMW and particularly the EQE/EQS are arguably slightly superior now to Tesla (though Tesla is still a bit easier). Renault is very close, and Kia/Hyundai isn't far behind either.
- BadOakOx 4y ago
  ..and also the parking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsb2XBAIWyA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsb2XBAIWyA
  - wazoox 4y ago
    Wow that's a hell of a failure from Tesla. And the 3 others (Audi, BMW, Ford) just did fine.
- fowkswe 4y ago
  > * To overtake a slower vehicle, the Megane and i4 are better : simply push the left blinker, then the car switch lanes and accelerates BEFORE having entirely switched lane, like a human driver would do. Teslas do this in FSD mode.
  - chrisandchris 4y ago
    My 2015 Seat did that too with cruise control enabled (well, minus sone stuff that is self-driving), but he did accelerate with cruise control enabled and auto-keep-distance). No need to buy a $x FSD Tesla to get some extra.
  - kwhitefoot 4y ago
Octoth0rpe 4y ago
> I have a Tesla and I also hold a short position on TSLA. My Tesla is a great car. This shouldn't have to be a position that requires any kind of defense or explanation. There's nothing contradictory about believing that: 1) A company makes a great product 2) The quality of that product and its total addressable market justifies the company's value at $X 3) The market cap of that company is far, far higher than $X
albertopv 4y ago
> Apple can make an even better car than Tesla Paying a premium for Apple smartphones hardware and software is a thing, paying same percentage premium for a car is a lot different, it's a lot more money.
- taylodl 4y ago
  I cringe when I see statements like that. Apple has ZERO EXPERIENCE with automotive design, automotive manufacture, automotive distribution, automotive marketing, and automotive evolution. In other words, Apple KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT ANY ASPECT of the automotive industry. Whether Apple can make a car better than Tesla is a moot point - Tesla isn't able to make cars as well as the other global automakers. Their whole schtick was the EV drivetrain. That's what set them apart from everybody else. It was never build quality. Now that governments around the world are essentially mandating EV's the global automakers are now entering the market. They have the know-how and experience in all the other areas of automotive manufacture that Tesla does not. Bottom line: Tesla has had to come up-to-speed with the entirety of automotive manufacture and still aren't there. The global automotive manufacturers only have to come up to speed with an EV drivetrain, a drivetrain they've been experimenting with for years. Want to bet money on who's most likely to win the market? Apple would be fools to enter this market and their investors should howl if they were foolish enough to do so.
  - twelve40 4y ago
    > Tesla isn't able to make cars as well as the other global automakers can you please point to where you found this data? > experience in all the other areas of automotive manufacture that Tesla does not I believe Tesla is still overvalued, but in 2022 they made 1.3 million cars, so dismissing them as amateurs is simply nonsensical. In 2023, they are a major car manufacturer with tons of experience with the entire process by now.
    - taylodl 4y ago
      Tesla's poor fit and finish has become legendary, certainly not up to snuff compared to other automakers at their price point. They're not even up to snuff compared to automakers making cars costing half as much. Another aspect of being an automaker for which Tesla is woefully behind on is service and repair. They've gotten away with it during their first few years because their sales were low and were to enthusiasts. Now things are going to be different because they're selling into the general market at a price point where the customers expectations have been set by the likes of Lexus, Audi, Mercedes, etc. They're going to have an interesting time should they get into an accident and need repairs. It's not uncommon for Tesla customers to have to wait weeks or even months for repairs. While 1.3 million cars is a decent amount, it pales to Toyota's 8 million cars - which they've been doing now for decades. That's a lot of experience Tesla doesn't have under their belt.
Cthulhu_ 4y ago
That's just it. I see it as follows. Back in the 2000s, the iPhone came out. Especially with the 3G, it was miles ahead of the competition, and it took Android manufacturers five years to catch up and overtake it. I believe Tesla holds - or, held - a similar position. They had a head start in many areas, but they could not keep it up. One big difference is quality; Apple phones have great build quality, always have - although they had issues with bending and holding the phone a certain way iirc. Nothing like that in recent years though. But Teslas are known for poor build quality, mainly in the bodywork - expensive construction methods, poor and inconsistent spacings, etc. Tesla hasn't innovated in recent years. Their last 'big' one was announcing the semi, cybertruck and a new Roadster, but it went radio silent for all of those for years after the announcement until recently when they finally started delivering the first semis. Apple on the other hand has consistently released a new phone every year since the iphone 1, and more models and innovation to boot. Tesla had so much money but they don't seem to have invested it efficiently. They also failed to advance their self-driving much further, which seemed to be the USP they were pushing for for a while. Its owner messing around with the stock price by announcing a privatization, then buying Twitter on what seemed like a whim was another big issue of course. He lost a lot of credibility over the years. I think Tesla will pivot from a car manufacturer to a battery manufacturer, and that its long-term strategy is its Turbocharger network. Electric cars are here to stay, and whoever owns the charger network now will benefit for a long, long time - like the oil industry has for a hundred years on fuel.
- helen___keller 4y ago
  > Its owner messing around with the stock price by announcing a privatization, then buying Twitter on what seemed like a whim was another big issue of course. He lost a lot of credibility over the years. I think this counts for more than people realize. Similar with Facebook/Zuckerberg and Amazon/Bezos. The most effective founder CEO, in my opinion, for a large company is one that stays generally unknown to the public. Tesla went from cool (I personally thought a Tesla was much more desirable than a traditional luxury car like a lambo) to kinda cringe, in large part because Elon Musk is broadcasting cringe on the daily to anybody who will listen.
  - 4y ago
macco 4y ago
I would think the most valuable part of tesla is the network of loading stations that the own. At least in the US. In Europe the EU is setting a standard which is good for competition, but maybe less good for innovation.
elisharobinson 4y ago
"carmaker" != "electric carmaker" , all other carmakers DO NOT make profitable EV's and require heavy subsidies to be in parity. Tesla has better margins because it is vertically integrated . Apple will NEVER make a car , cars require a totally different supply chain not as simple as moving a low mass objects like phones and PC's , ie cant move them multiple times across different continents. other car makers will have to make significant investments while having losses and being dependent on ICE to break even all the while EV's grow and the ICE mkt share reduces (less profits) . They will probably never catch tesla in building a tech platform "infotainment" , how long would it take for any other car maker to ship steam games and have 60 fps gaming on the car.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- wahnfrieden 4y ago
  isn't tesla heavily subsidized via carbon credits?
  - bsagdiyev 4y ago
    We don't talk about Bruno.
  - elisharobinson 4y ago
    "carbon credit" != "tax credit" carbon credit: EU law fines ICE car makers for making cars. they inturn purchase carbon credits to have the right to keep polluting. further more tesla made 53 B$ in rev for 2021. 1.5B is not nothing but not > 5% of revenue for the year. ie bulk of it came from actually making and selling cars. tax credit: the US federal govt had a tax credit program which was lobbied by GM in the 2010's that gave car buyers 7.5K as a tax write off . this was only eligible for less than 100k cars sold (tesla sold 405,300 in q4 2022) and was only useful if you made enough income where a tax writeoff made sense. 2023 new laws are in place with more rules which makes them almost useless (or only useful for those who lobbied for it).
- jeffbee 4y ago
jpeter 4y ago
Have you driven other cars in the same price range as your Tesla?
kylecordes 4y ago
It appears so far that the good UI/UX Tesla offers is something other makers could replicate, but stubbornly refuse to. Still... that doesn't mean the stock is infinitely valuable. Presumably the market will shake out and TSLA will end up with a valuation kinda high for a car company, but not in tech-company range.
paxys 4y ago
What is laughable is thinking that Apple (or anyone else) can just walk into a multi-trillion dollar industry with zero prior experience and displace existing players. Heck they have even tried to build a car/self driving tech for many years now and constantly failed at it.
- VirusNewbie 4y ago
  Didn’t they do that with cell phones?
  - paxys 4y ago
    They were already the market leader in computers and portable devices (iPod), plus "smartphone" was a very recent and underdeveloped sector to begin with (existing products were all focused on business use cases and no end consumer had one). Very different from cars. Look at all their other efforts to enter areas with a dominant player. People were saying Spotify was doomed when Apple Music launched, yet it has barely has an impact (even though Apple had a massive amount of expertise and industry connections in music). Their social network (Ping) was an instant failure. Hopepod couldn't compete with Echo and Sonos. They tried multiple times to get into video gaming and went nowhere (Pippin, Arcade). iAd was dead in the water when it tried to compete with Google and Facebook. Same with Maps, MobileMe. Heck they are even having trouble with a wireless charging pad, and have basically conceded the market to Qi. Dominance in one sector rarely extends to an unrelated one regardless of how many billions you throw at the problem.
    - nebula8804 4y ago
      >Heck they are even having trouble with a wireless charging pad, and have basically conceded the market to Qi. Do you own any Magsafe devices? Their Magsafe implementation is like magic and its extremely practical. It (among many other things) has essentially locked me into iPhone ecosystem for good.
      - paxys 4y ago
leesec 4y ago
>I think Apple can make an even better car than Tesla if they build the hardware and software like their phones and computers. OK but we don't even officially know if Apple is trying to make a car? >The idea that Autopilot has some magic sauce that nobody else can replicate is laughable. The idea that a very difficult, innovative software problem can't be just replicated by legacy auto manufacturers who lack software engineering expertise is not laughable at all. The legacy auto manufacturers will really have to prove themselves here and so far they have not.

by msoad 4y ago

moonchrome 4y ago

> I think Apple can make an even better car than Tesla if they build the hardware and software like their phones and computers. I'm not sure outsourcing manufacturing and focusing on design works in auto industry - but could be wrong.

jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago
"Outsourcing" is a very poor way to describe Apple's supply chain. They are deeply integrated. For example Apple owns most of the CNCs and similar equipment used. Having tight control over all logistics is core to Apple's strategy of huge global product launches.
multiplegeorges 4y ago
Fisker is trying it and should have a car to market next year. They've been hitting all their targets. They outsource their manufacturing to Magna Steyr.
papruapap 4y ago
like how they outsourced their chips, right? They only designed a square with a M1 stamped on it.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
hef19898 4y ago
It does, Magna's whole business model is based around that.
dylan604 4y ago
Huh? The auto industry is famous for outsourcing to plants outside of the country and bring the final cars back in to the country. They are also famous for manufacturing the parts from all of the world, and then assembling them in another country. Apple's "Designed in Cupertino, assembled in ___" is the same thing.
elil17 4y ago
You’re wrong. Auto manufacturers source parts from a huge variety of outside manufacturers. Auto manufacturers: 1) manage supply chain (hardest part) 2) spec parts (establish quality metrics, change small aspects of design) 3) come up with car concepts 4) assemble parts certain components (e.g. weld the frame, install all the premade parts) They are not building or designing every component in a car - not even close.
- moonchrome 4y ago
  I mean what do you expect - for them to build everything down to a screw in-house in order to do manufacturing ? Final assembly, fit and finish - those are very important things on high end cars - and as Tesla demonstrated - not that easy to do even when you're flush with cash. Apple outsources all of it's production - I'd be surprised if they can get premium car assembly from Foxconn model when Tesla is still having issues.
  - elil17 4y ago
    Final assembly, fit and finish aren't really the key part of what they're doing, though. There's no reason they can't outsource that too.
  - badpun 4y ago
    It’s not that they don’t build. They don’t even design a lot of the car components (incl. gear boxes, abs, traction control etc). They’re bough from OEM companies, who design and manufacture them.
  - jonathankoren 4y ago
    > Final assembly, fit and finish - those are very important things on high end cars - and as Tesla demonstrated - not that easy to do even when you're flush with cash Is it that hard though? The initial build problems came from ignoring industry experience about trying to automate final assembly — a step that very manufacture had tried and failed to do before. No shame in trying it, maybe industrial robotic control have improved since then, but you usually don’t test such a thing in your assembly lines. After Tesla ripped out the robots, I don’t know what their problem was beyond poor training and line management. Putting doors on straight — let alone with matching colors — for over a hundred years. If it’s really hard to physically build a car, we’d see similar massive faults from Rivian and Lucid, but I’m unaware of any.
citrus1330 4y ago
Even if that were true, you don't think Apple is capable of building out manufacturing capabilities?
Server6 4y ago
Foxconn is designing an EV platform specifically for this. https://www.foxconn.com/en-us/products-and-services/event-highlights/strategy-blueprint/electric-vehicle-platform https://www.foxconn.com/en-us/products-and-services/event-hi... We'll see if it works out. Seeing as how they're Apple's biggest partner I'd be surprised if Apple one day doesn't design a car. EV's are simpler, eventually they'll all be fast and have 500 mile ranges. The platform won't matter, so what sells the car? Design.
mprev 4y ago
Manga Steyr builds Jaguars, BMWs, Fiskers, and others under just this model.

judge2020 4y ago

The difference seems to be that Tesla was 5-10 years ahead on everything: Minimalistic interiors, modern infotainment, mobile app performance, and of course they lead the way in making electric cars viable by showing that they can both look good and blast off in record time. But you're right that other automakers see Tesla as a threat and are catching up; for example, the range and charging curve improvements on models like the EV6 / Ioniq 5 look great, assuming the charger work [in the cold].

staunch 4y ago
> The difference seems to be that Tesla was 5-10 years ahead on everything... This is pretty much the definition of a great tech product: it's ahead of anything else by N years. What makes a great technology company is that they manage to consistently maintain that lead with product after product. We'll see if Tesla can maintain its lead. It's not looking good and it probably depends mostly on whether or not Elon Musk can regain his grip on reality.
- myko 4y ago
  Tesla has already lost its lead as far as the car itself. The Ioniq is an affordable car and better than Tesla Model 3/Y. Mercedes and BMW have better luxury models with EQS and i7, and the BMW i4 is more fun to drive than a Model 3. The Cadillac Lyriq costs what a Model Y does but compares favorably to the Model X. Tesla interiors feel cheap compared to other cars in their same class and they have notorious build quality issues. They do have one major advantage, which is why I still drive a Model S, and that's the Supercharger network. It's a big deal for anyone who regularly drives a few hundred miles in their EV.
cainxinth 4y ago
> Minimalistic interiors, modern infotainment, mobile app performance None of that is why Tesla was ahead of everyone for so long. It's because their cars have better range, and Tesla is still the range leader. They held four of the top six spots in 2022, and the number one is the Lucid Air (only 3k of them have actually been sold): https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/g32634624/ev-longest-driving-range/ https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/g32634624/ev-lo... Also, I just want to say I am categorically not an Elon or Tesla fanboi and I am rooting for other brands to meet and exceed their range performance.

gwbas1c 4y ago

> The idea that Autopilot has some magic sauce that nobody else can replicate is laughable. Apparently GM's Supercruise is better, and cheaper. I got enhanced autopilot in my first Tesla. Except for changing lanes, things like summon and autopark are just toys. The auto lane chance is so glitchy I decided I was better off saving seven grand on my second Tesla. But if Enhanced Autopilot was 1-2 grand, I'd have bought it without regrets.

FpUser 4y ago
>"I was better off saving seven grand" Seven grand for a software update sounds like a ripoff. Especially just for lane change.
- darknavi 4y ago
  Wait until you learn that "Full Self Driving" is $15,000USD right now.
  - FpUser 4y ago
    If it was real, and legally letting one sleep at the wheel someone might pay for it. As it is now - meh. They can have their soft and I'll keep my 15G
stoddur 4y ago
Wait what, SuperCruise better then AP? Any sources?
- gwbas1c 4y ago
  Well, that's highly subjective based on reviewer. But, in general, Supercruise is hands-free and doesn't require jiggling the steering wheel every 30 seconds. From what I understand, Supercruise is a lot more limited in where it'll work, compared to Autopilot. But, EV market options are so limited that the differences really don't matter, unless that kind of functionality is top on your list. In my case, I bought a second Tesla because of the charging network, and because I needed a 3rd row.

fenrisbear 4y ago

Not sure what the general consensus on Tesla in Norway. Sure, they are great cars during the summer, but during the winter they severely lack the robustness of the traditional car manufacturers. One of them being able to open the car door!

mavhc 4y ago
Use the app to unlock the door https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_cn/GUID-F907200E-A619-4A95-A0CF-94E0D03BEBEF.html https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_cn/GUID-F907200...
- nradov 4y ago
  It's hilarious that anyone would consider this an acceptable work around for such an idiotic design flaw.
  - mavhc 4y ago
    It's fine for 99.9% of the time, and saves you energy. Also reduces noise when moving.
  - l33tman 4y ago
    Yeah well that they omit a windshield wiper stalk is also idiotic and furthermore outright dangerous. I've done overtakes next to trailers some times in heavy rain where in a second I had to hit the wiper stalk to max. Relying on their camera-based AI to do that (yes they skip on the cost of the industry standard IR sensor for rain detection) is crazy. A german guy actually died a few years back because he was searching through the UI to find the control to set the wipers to max..
    - AlexandrB 4y ago
      The charitable take on this is that it's an optimistic design that anticipates a future where an AI will deal with all these minor decisions. The cynical take is that it's a cost cutting measure so Tesla can sell cheaply-made cars at premium prices.

samwillis 4y ago

Autopilot [FSD] is a boondoggle that is a distraction from their core mission. They have wasted time and resources on it, when by now they should have a cheaper mass market car and a full suite of commercial vehicles (small vans to large trucks). Edit: yes meant FSD

aardvarkr 4y ago
I strongly disagree. Autopilot is what made them COOL and gave them their secret sauce. I used to be a major fan back in 2015 and that was an incredibly momentous initiative that cannot be understated. You can say this now with the benefit of hindsight but do not make the mistake of assuming it was all just a waste of money. Autopilot was a key driver in the hype and fanaticism that turned Tesla from a hip startup into the trendsetter for the entire industry.
- freejazz 4y ago
  "I strongly disagree. Autopilot is what made them COOL and gave them their secret sauce." To dorks who believed the hype, yeah.
elteto 4y ago
Wrong. Autopilot is a pretty standard smart cruise control, which many other carmakers have and have had for years. It works and it works well. You are thinking of FSD.
- AlexandrB 4y ago
  Tesla's naming continues to suck. It's very common to see people confuse Autopilot with Full Self Driving. I'm not sure this is to Tesla's benefit since every FSD snafu gets attributed to Autopilot as well in the mind of someone not following the company closely.

helen___keller 4y ago

> The idea that Autopilot has some magic sauce that nobody else can replicate is laughable. Openpilot by comma is very equivalent to autopilot (not FSD) and can be added on to a boring cheap car (depending on that car's compatibility) like a prius, corolla, or sonata, all for just about $2,000 dollars. Granted, it's a "dev-kit", requires a bit of research to install, but if you can pass the barrier it's really equivalent to autopilot and available to consumers at a price point that Tesla is not. And if you don't want the latest and greatest (comma 3) you can get a used comma 2 or a comma knock-off "Mr One" for a few hundred dollars and still have an excellent experience for basic level 2 functionality (automated highway navigation, essentially)

wazoox 4y ago

Actually after having tested a couple of other cars, for instance the Renault Megane, the BMW i4 and the Mercedes EQE have better enhanced drive assistance than Tesla. For instance: * when in full-auto on a single lane road, when there's an exit on the right the Tesla 3 almost always slightly swerve towards the exit before coming back in its lane. None of the Megane, the EQE or the BMW i4 do that. * To overtake a slower vehicle, the Megane and i4 are better : simply push the left blinker, then the car switch lanes and accelerates BEFORE having entirely switched lane, like a human driver would do. * The mapping and charge planning on the BMW and particularly the EQE/EQS are arguably slightly superior now to Tesla (though Tesla is still a bit easier). Renault is very close, and Kia/Hyundai isn't far behind either.

BadOakOx 4y ago
..and also the parking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsb2XBAIWyA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsb2XBAIWyA
- wazoox 4y ago
  Wow that's a hell of a failure from Tesla. And the 3 others (Audi, BMW, Ford) just did fine.
fowkswe 4y ago
> * To overtake a slower vehicle, the Megane and i4 are better : simply push the left blinker, then the car switch lanes and accelerates BEFORE having entirely switched lane, like a human driver would do. Teslas do this in FSD mode.
- chrisandchris 4y ago
  My 2015 Seat did that too with cruise control enabled (well, minus sone stuff that is self-driving), but he did accelerate with cruise control enabled and auto-keep-distance). No need to buy a $x FSD Tesla to get some extra.
- kwhitefoot 4y ago

Octoth0rpe 4y ago

> I have a Tesla and I also hold a short position on TSLA. My Tesla is a great car. This shouldn't have to be a position that requires any kind of defense or explanation. There's nothing contradictory about believing that: 1) A company makes a great product 2) The quality of that product and its total addressable market justifies the company's value at $X 3) The market cap of that company is far, far higher than $X

albertopv 4y ago

> Apple can make an even better car than Tesla Paying a premium for Apple smartphones hardware and software is a thing, paying same percentage premium for a car is a lot different, it's a lot more money.

taylodl 4y ago
I cringe when I see statements like that. Apple has ZERO EXPERIENCE with automotive design, automotive manufacture, automotive distribution, automotive marketing, and automotive evolution. In other words, Apple KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT ANY ASPECT of the automotive industry. Whether Apple can make a car better than Tesla is a moot point - Tesla isn't able to make cars as well as the other global automakers. Their whole schtick was the EV drivetrain. That's what set them apart from everybody else. It was never build quality. Now that governments around the world are essentially mandating EV's the global automakers are now entering the market. They have the know-how and experience in all the other areas of automotive manufacture that Tesla does not. Bottom line: Tesla has had to come up-to-speed with the entirety of automotive manufacture and still aren't there. The global automotive manufacturers only have to come up to speed with an EV drivetrain, a drivetrain they've been experimenting with for years. Want to bet money on who's most likely to win the market? Apple would be fools to enter this market and their investors should howl if they were foolish enough to do so.
- twelve40 4y ago
  > Tesla isn't able to make cars as well as the other global automakers can you please point to where you found this data? > experience in all the other areas of automotive manufacture that Tesla does not I believe Tesla is still overvalued, but in 2022 they made 1.3 million cars, so dismissing them as amateurs is simply nonsensical. In 2023, they are a major car manufacturer with tons of experience with the entire process by now.
  - taylodl 4y ago
    Tesla's poor fit and finish has become legendary, certainly not up to snuff compared to other automakers at their price point. They're not even up to snuff compared to automakers making cars costing half as much. Another aspect of being an automaker for which Tesla is woefully behind on is service and repair. They've gotten away with it during their first few years because their sales were low and were to enthusiasts. Now things are going to be different because they're selling into the general market at a price point where the customers expectations have been set by the likes of Lexus, Audi, Mercedes, etc. They're going to have an interesting time should they get into an accident and need repairs. It's not uncommon for Tesla customers to have to wait weeks or even months for repairs. While 1.3 million cars is a decent amount, it pales to Toyota's 8 million cars - which they've been doing now for decades. That's a lot of experience Tesla doesn't have under their belt.

Cthulhu_ 4y ago

That's just it. I see it as follows. Back in the 2000s, the iPhone came out. Especially with the 3G, it was miles ahead of the competition, and it took Android manufacturers five years to catch up and overtake it. I believe Tesla holds - or, held - a similar position. They had a head start in many areas, but they could not keep it up. One big difference is quality; Apple phones have great build quality, always have - although they had issues with bending and holding the phone a certain way iirc. Nothing like that in recent years though. But Teslas are known for poor build quality, mainly in the bodywork - expensive construction methods, poor and inconsistent spacings, etc. Tesla hasn't innovated in recent years. Their last 'big' one was announcing the semi, cybertruck and a new Roadster, but it went radio silent for all of those for years after the announcement until recently when they finally started delivering the first semis. Apple on the other hand has consistently released a new phone every year since the iphone 1, and more models and innovation to boot. Tesla had so much money but they don't seem to have invested it efficiently. They also failed to advance their self-driving much further, which seemed to be the USP they were pushing for for a while. Its owner messing around with the stock price by announcing a privatization, then buying Twitter on what seemed like a whim was another big issue of course. He lost a lot of credibility over the years. I think Tesla will pivot from a car manufacturer to a battery manufacturer, and that its long-term strategy is its Turbocharger network. Electric cars are here to stay, and whoever owns the charger network now will benefit for a long, long time - like the oil industry has for a hundred years on fuel.

helen___keller 4y ago
> Its owner messing around with the stock price by announcing a privatization, then buying Twitter on what seemed like a whim was another big issue of course. He lost a lot of credibility over the years. I think this counts for more than people realize. Similar with Facebook/Zuckerberg and Amazon/Bezos. The most effective founder CEO, in my opinion, for a large company is one that stays generally unknown to the public. Tesla went from cool (I personally thought a Tesla was much more desirable than a traditional luxury car like a lambo) to kinda cringe, in large part because Elon Musk is broadcasting cringe on the daily to anybody who will listen.
- 4y ago

macco 4y ago

I would think the most valuable part of tesla is the network of loading stations that the own. At least in the US. In Europe the EU is setting a standard which is good for competition, but maybe less good for innovation.

elisharobinson 4y ago

"carmaker" != "electric carmaker" , all other carmakers DO NOT make profitable EV's and require heavy subsidies to be in parity. Tesla has better margins because it is vertically integrated . Apple will NEVER make a car , cars require a totally different supply chain not as simple as moving a low mass objects like phones and PC's , ie cant move them multiple times across different continents. other car makers will have to make significant investments while having losses and being dependent on ICE to break even all the while EV's grow and the ICE mkt share reduces (less profits) . They will probably never catch tesla in building a tech platform "infotainment" , how long would it take for any other car maker to ship steam games and have 60 fps gaming on the car.

deleted 4y ago
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wahnfrieden 4y ago
isn't tesla heavily subsidized via carbon credits?
- bsagdiyev 4y ago
  We don't talk about Bruno.
- elisharobinson 4y ago
  "carbon credit" != "tax credit" carbon credit: EU law fines ICE car makers for making cars. they inturn purchase carbon credits to have the right to keep polluting. further more tesla made 53 B$ in rev for 2021. 1.5B is not nothing but not > 5% of revenue for the year. ie bulk of it came from actually making and selling cars. tax credit: the US federal govt had a tax credit program which was lobbied by GM in the 2010's that gave car buyers 7.5K as a tax write off . this was only eligible for less than 100k cars sold (tesla sold 405,300 in q4 2022) and was only useful if you made enough income where a tax writeoff made sense. 2023 new laws are in place with more rules which makes them almost useless (or only useful for those who lobbied for it).
jeffbee 4y ago

jpeter 4y ago

Have you driven other cars in the same price range as your Tesla?

kylecordes 4y ago

It appears so far that the good UI/UX Tesla offers is something other makers could replicate, but stubbornly refuse to. Still... that doesn't mean the stock is infinitely valuable. Presumably the market will shake out and TSLA will end up with a valuation kinda high for a car company, but not in tech-company range.

paxys 4y ago

What is laughable is thinking that Apple (or anyone else) can just walk into a multi-trillion dollar industry with zero prior experience and displace existing players. Heck they have even tried to build a car/self driving tech for many years now and constantly failed at it.

VirusNewbie 4y ago
Didn’t they do that with cell phones?
- paxys 4y ago
  They were already the market leader in computers and portable devices (iPod), plus "smartphone" was a very recent and underdeveloped sector to begin with (existing products were all focused on business use cases and no end consumer had one). Very different from cars. Look at all their other efforts to enter areas with a dominant player. People were saying Spotify was doomed when Apple Music launched, yet it has barely has an impact (even though Apple had a massive amount of expertise and industry connections in music). Their social network (Ping) was an instant failure. Hopepod couldn't compete with Echo and Sonos. They tried multiple times to get into video gaming and went nowhere (Pippin, Arcade). iAd was dead in the water when it tried to compete with Google and Facebook. Same with Maps, MobileMe. Heck they are even having trouble with a wireless charging pad, and have basically conceded the market to Qi. Dominance in one sector rarely extends to an unrelated one regardless of how many billions you throw at the problem.
  - nebula8804 4y ago
    >Heck they are even having trouble with a wireless charging pad, and have basically conceded the market to Qi. Do you own any Magsafe devices? Their Magsafe implementation is like magic and its extremely practical. It (among many other things) has essentially locked me into iPhone ecosystem for good.
    - paxys 4y ago

leesec 4y ago

>I think Apple can make an even better car than Tesla if they build the hardware and software like their phones and computers. OK but we don't even officially know if Apple is trying to make a car? >The idea that Autopilot has some magic sauce that nobody else can replicate is laughable. The idea that a very difficult, innovative software problem can't be just replicated by legacy auto manufacturers who lack software engineering expertise is not laughable at all. The legacy auto manufacturers will really have to prove themselves here and so far they have not.