9 ms·

In-person schooling and youth suicide: Evidence from calendars, school closures

96 points by manuelabeledo 4y ago

AnimalMuppet 4y ago
My expectation was that "stay at home" increased isolation and loneliness, which in turn increased suicide. Their data says that my expectation is wrong - it didn't increase suicide. The abstract hints that bullying is the issue, and bullying is a lot harder when everyone's staying at home. Was the isolation not that bad? Or is it just that the bullying was worse? Their data says that suicides rise in August, when everyone returns to school. Over and over here we've seen claims that school is really unhealthy; these people have data that confirms it.
- moshegramovsky 4y ago
  [dead]
- juanani 4y ago
  [dead]
- whatshisface 4y ago
  Let's try unpacking the case you must be imagining to arrive at that expectation. If the kid had any friends, they wouldn't be isolated when school was closed, so we must be imagining a kid with no friends. If we're imagining a kid with no friends, they must not be getting on very well at school. Well, so much for the expectation, eh?
  - quickthrower2 4y ago
    Depends if the Uber drivers, mum and dad are available to do the drop offs and pick ups.
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    If they have friends that they never see any more, because school is closed, then they're isolated, right? And before you say "they should just get together", well, they used to get together five days a week, and they probably won't do that, even if they're ignoring the "socially isolate" part.
- mym1990 4y ago
  Alongside bullying there are a lot of other pressure factors that can intensify feelings of depression. This can be things like peer pressure, or simply being around others but not necessarily feeling like one fits in. Its important to separate school into the learning aspect and the social aspect, and the very negative part of the social piece is likely what drives the suicide rates. From my experience in school, kids are often absolutely brutal to each other, I never really understood where that all comes from...
- Traubenfuchs 4y ago
  Consider how many people kill themselves from feeling lonely and how many kill themselves from having to go to a place where they are physically and mentally tortured 5 days a week, 8+ hours a day. I was bullied and retrospectively know no other word than torture for what happened to me. And I wasn‘t the worst off victim, we made three classmates leave the school.
  - quacked 4y ago
    I also describe it as torture. The conditions many children and young adults experience at school at the hands of their peers would be cause for firing in a corporate environment and even legal action in the adult world.
    - sgjohnson 4y ago
      > The conditions many children and young adults experience at school at the hands of their peers would be cause for firing in a corporate environment and even legal action in the adult world. This isn't really relevant though, because kids are a lot more cruel than adults.
      - Traubenfuchs 4y ago
        Adults are just as cruel, they are merely more aware (or more a subject) of social and legal repercussions.
      - ajuc 4y ago
        Kids are just allowed to get away with it. If adults were allowed to beat others with no consequences - it would be happening everywhere. Sadly - teachers encourage the "macho" "don't tatter, be a man" attitude to have less work. Hence bullying. Imagine if judges did that :) "So he stole your book, so what, be a man, deal with it yourself". "I don't care who beat whom - just shake hands and leave me be"
      - Brian_K_White 4y ago
        Adults created the school environment and place the kids in it, and perpetuate it, and all knowingly. I don't think you can separate adults from the awfulness of school, including the awfulness of kids toward kids, because school isn't a Lord of the Flies situation where the setting happened by itself, and the ongoing proceedings happen without witness and active maintainance. Ask any teacher or admin and they may say "this system has problems", but tomorrow everyone gets up and does all the same stuff, so we are a full participant in this. Me too, even as someone who never had kids. I'm complicit in the sense that even though I went through the process and know how awful it is, now that I'm past that, I'm relieved that this problem and those people (kids) are all kept on some kind of reservation out of my hair. It's really somewhat like packing undesirables away in a compound. Even though I don't have kids, I don't think it would be wrong or unfair to still expect me to have some sort of share in a general collective responsibility (beyond simple taxes) to help raise (and deal with) the young. After all I was one once and could have used a better society, and I still have an interest in it since they are still part of the world I have to inhabit, and are people I will have to deal with. Please don't "If you feel a calling then go work at a school". My point isn't about me or any individual, it's that we all have this vested interest and this responsibility, we've just set things up in such a way that most of us can shirk it without having to face up to that's the essense of what we've done.
- quacked 4y ago
  A lot of people talk about bullying, which is definitely a possible factor, but I don't think adults remember what it was like to be in school. Unless you don't care about it and ignore your future plans, school invades every part of your senses and monopolizes all of your time. Any new information you intake is sized up for difficulty and likelihood that you'll recall it on a rest. If you fall behind one or two weeks on homework and screw up an exam you can end up an entire grade lower. Then there's the constant attention of people who don't really care about you that you're exposed to all day, whose apathy can be just as damaging as their interest. Online school just wasn't real. Everyone I've talked to said they put in a fraction of the effort required to pass classes online that they did in person, and many people said they had grades practically forgiven. I didn't have too hard of a time in school but I still remember it as immensely stressful, and for little reason. It is easy for someone with a real problem (drugs, bad relationship, abuse, trauma) to spend a few weeks marinating in cortisol as a result of the panopticon of in-person school to become convinced that suicide is the only way out of their negative feelings.
  - alar44 4y ago
    Pre-college school isn't stressful for most people.
    - mym1990 4y ago
      Can I ask how many elementary/middle school/high school kids you have worked with?
      - alar44 4y ago
        I fucking was one?
        ajuc 4y ago
        You aren't "most people" though.
        mym1990 4y ago
- ajuc 4y ago
  Isolation when you're a kid means that your parents spend more time with you (remote work) and you don't have to be bullied at school. Win-win? I would have loved isolation when I was at primary school.
rg111 4y ago
Not only lockdowns reduced suicide rates, but, suicide rates in the age group 12-18 is always low in the months of summer vacation. And the data from early 90s to present year confirm that.
petodo 4y ago
Counter view Surge of Student Suicides Pushes Las Vegas Schools to Reopen https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/24/us/politics/student-suicides-nevada-coronavirus.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/24/us/politics/student-suici... bullying is issue, but children mental health during school closings clearly deteriorated if you look at increase in mental related visits, so I doubt results of this study, there might be temporary increase associated with any change, but long term it's definitely healthier if someone in school is able to monitor kids and take care of their mental health, which is going largely unchecked if schools are locked
- jmcgough 4y ago
  The study uses large, national statistics, and shows a clear pattern on a national level. The article you linked is just for a single school district, which may have unique circumstances. It could also be statistical chance, given the small sample size and single year referenced.
  - ianai 4y ago
    LV is a weird, violent place. The schools are designed from prison architecture. The culture is a bunch of people who wanted to move somewhere so far from where they left they’d never be visited. (See the Anthony Bourdain episode as he did it justice.) People routinely move there then leave with a turnover rate of around 7 years. The heat and ultra dry conditions are their own form of violence, too. Pretty sure it consistently ranks low on education scores. Suffice it to say, not a place to raise kids nor use as an example of choices made for their best interests.
    - camgunz 4y ago
      I think it's common to have schools designed/built by the same people who built your jails, who reuse plans. At least, I'm pretty sure a lot of schools in central Indiana (where I mostly grew up) are like this.
  - petodo 4y ago
    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/09/11/health/covid-school-closings-depression-suicide-study-trnd/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2020/09/11/health/covid-school-closi... https://thehill.com/opinion/education/588302-closed-schools-more-risky-for-young-people-than-covid/ https://thehill.com/opinion/education/588302-closed-schools-... and tons of other articles while here we have one clickbaity study which says opposite, but sure this one study will be the right one, while literally everyone else is wrong that school closings are harmful and very bad for children mental health
AngriestLettuce 4y ago
This is not surprising, but not for the reasons the authors imagine. Of course going back to jail after being free would make any kid who values his own autonomy depressed. School in its current form is awful, because it's far too authoritarian and preachy, not because "bullying". You wouldn't have issues with bullying if you didn't force kids who don't like each other to interact without oversight in the first place. Oversight is key, when you know kids don't like each other, don't put them together again until you know they're cool again. It's hard being a little person.
- plsbenice34 4y ago
  I thought the same. Schools are very, very much like prison and the schedule is so intense. I have so many issues with it. Many children seem to say they enjoy school, but I bet they aren't the ones at risk of suicide. Bullying is a symptom/consequence of the unhealthy prison-like environment.
  - ajuc 4y ago
    I enjoyed high school (because I wasn't bullied, had friends and was doing well). I was bullied in primary school and hated it. I still did well grades-wise. If you weren't bullied seriously you probably can't understand how big of a deal it is for small kids. Like psychological-issues-30-years-later serious.
    - ianai 4y ago
      Agree. I was bullied horrifically through the 10th year of public school. I even attempted to fight back against the bullies and was punished for that by the school. The effects linger to this day 20+ years later.
    - plsbenice34 4y ago
      I understand how serious it can be. I think in a healthy environment you would more often be able to escape and avoid interactions with bullies. It is unnatural to the extreme to be pushed and forced into randomly chosen social groups and forced to interact according to an extremely fixed schedule, in fixed locations, etc. It leads to damaging abusive interactions with others who take advantage of that situation. Bullies know that you can't get away. I had a situation where I was literally forced to sit next to someone I hated for months - I can't think of anywhere that could happen except prison and school
vegetablepotpie 4y ago
The authors considered other possibilities for the reduction in teen suicide: > There could be a number of explanations for these findings. Families spending time together during a period of fear and uncertainty may have generated important mental health benefits for teenagers. Moreover, increased communication between parents and teenagers, as well as increased monitoring (both of behaviors and psychological health) may have yielded important psychological gains for teenagers. In addition, the absence of in-person schooling could have helped teenagers avoid negative peer effects of in-person bullying. Or, it may be that reductions in pressures associated with high-stakes exams, athletics, or romantic relationships may have reduced triggers for suicide ideation. In the final section of this paper, we empirically explore a few potential channels. As someone who has gone to public school, I know the answer is bullying. The authors were careful to point out that they do not advocate shutting down in person schooling because it can also offer positive mental health benefits. But you have to wonder, between teachers, guidance counselors, and administrators, you would think someone would notice some bullying behavior. Could it be that collectively the adults tasked with overseeing children are, understaffed, unempowered, ignorant, complicit, or do the facilitate or lead this behavior?
- connectsnk 4y ago
  On teacher empowerment, there are two views : One is that the teachers have been stripped off all powers. Just today I was reading some article from hacker news where the teacher was complaining that all kids from the latest freshman year gave her/him the finger when they were asked to show their hall pass. Other side of the argument is that if teachers are empowered, then it is documented sufficiently that some teachers (not all) absolutely abuse their power and exploit/harm kids in even worse ways. I dont know whats the solution. I hope I come out more wise from someones comment here.
  - ianai 4y ago
    Smaller class sizes would probably help as a blunt measure. Might have to be down to 5-1 or 10-1 to really know it’s controlled though. And this isn’t practical. If my hunch that bullies are products of abuse or otherwise need psychological help is true then trying to identify and help bullies and their victims could help.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
jeandejean 4y ago
I guess learning to live together in a society and putting yourself at risk of other's judgement is more stressful than the comfort of your house where everything you need is provided for by hardworking parents... But that's a very necessary step towards growing up.
- mabcat 4y ago
  From the study, in-person schooling increases teen suicides by 12-18%. Is this fatality rate acceptable on the basis that it's "very necessary" to socialize the remaining children in this way? Is there evidence that kids in online classes wouldn't have "grown up"? I find this line of thinking abhorrent. If it will reduce suicides by 15%, in-person schooling should be stopped outright until someone fixes what's wrong with it.
  - jeandejean 4y ago
    I understand this can be shocking, but to me excessive precautions (such as no in-person school to avoid suicides), just lead to another ripple effect that is extremely detrimental to us as a society. The problem needs to be addressed for sure, but it doesn't mean home schooling is superior to in person.
- ajuc 4y ago
  Society is nothing like school though. Who has 30 friends all the same age that you spend most of your life with and that you can't change for the next 5-8-11 years? School is organized the way it is, because we need workers and soldiers. Not because we want kids to behave better or to "grow up". People "grew up" before we had schools.
  - chadcmulligan 4y ago
    Schools were made to get people used to working fixed hours and teach them the minimal skills required to operate the mills [1]. It's really time to rethink schools (and work). [1]Behemoth: A History of the Factory and the Making of the Modern World
mandmandam 4y ago
A lot of people here pointing to bullying as a major issue, while not knowing what to do about it. So, I'll point out that the KiVa [0] program from Finland has been proven to reduce bullying by a huge amount. It has been running for years now, with repeated success. [0] - https://steptohealth.com/kiva-method-bullying-and-school-harassment/ https://steptohealth.com/kiva-method-bullying-and-school-har...
orwin 4y ago
Isn't this very US-centric? or is it true in europe as well? We French have the worse schools in europe according to PISA, where we score around the same as the US. According to data, too much emphasis on grade, too much pressure, school is mostly good for children who already do well (we would rank in the top if only the top 5% was ranked), but bad for the rest. Interestingly, we also have on of the higher teen suicide rate of europe. But we do not have as much bullying issues as it seems US have if i read the comments right. Or at least did not when i was there, nor when i was a youth camp counselor, or "speaker" in school (i brought science experiments, gears and stuff for 6-11yo and did cool stuff with an association). I don't remember any isolated kid when i was in middle school, and i guess in highschool "I" was the most bullied kid at the start of the year (playing violin in the school boarding facilities when the school was 70% technical/trade and 30% generalist do not help), but i mean, people overall were great and the education team helped me past the first few months until my natural charm and bad jokes did the work and offset the out-of-tune sounds (joking, but not entirely). Are those hn comments representative of the overall bullying in public school in the US? We do have bullying in France though, i don't mean to say we are good on this point, and from what i managed to understand in my few years around the education system, those who have the greatest impact are the directors (school or youth camp). A good director will have meeting with this team where he talks about children with special needs, or children who are especially needy ("attention whore" is the special term internet came with, which says a lot about how charitable and nice we are with each other naturally), and help professors or counselors manage those needs. With permanent emphasis on this, the "bad elements" are peer-pressured into doing better (in my experience as a counselor, but its probably the same for teachers). Those with the second greatest impact are people at the departement of education who allocate budgets and basically decide how many children per teacher. Teachers themselves are a most third, at least 5th behind parents and the community.
- Macha 4y ago
  We had 3 suicides in my high school class of 24, so certainly true in at least some places in the EU also.
mensetmanusman 4y ago
It sounds like we need a way to tap people on the shoulder and force them to do online schooling for some duration and/or summer school. Eg, a hint of bullying gives you a two week online-only experience that increases in duration for repeat offenses. They could find a room at the library or something.
- barbazoo 4y ago
  Is there any evidence that that actually improves anything?
  - mensetmanusman 4y ago
    Reduces harm from those bullying.
    - barbazoo 4y ago
      I meant evidence in the form of studies showing that punishment less to people stopping being bullies for instance.
      - mensetmanusman 4y ago
        It won’t stop people from bullying, just reduce the amount of integrated time a bully has access to victims. It’s an obvious solution that would work to some extent. Bullies don’t deserve the right to be at school when they could learn online if they are pushing people to suicide.
        barbazoo 4y ago
        I don't know, this sounds an awful lot like the justification for harsh punishment for crimes the benefit of which is controversial as well. Just because you throw people in jail doesn't make the problem go away either, sure they're off the street for a while but the "cost" to society is still huge.
michael1999 4y ago
The school-months and school-days are long known to have the highest rate of teen suicide. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/childrens-risk-of-suicide-increases-on-school-days/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/childrens-risk-of...
dandare 4y ago
Fun fact: boys are more likely to die as a result of suicide than as a result of an attack or stabbing, use of drugs, accidental poisoning, drowning, fall and any other kind of accident, except for traffic accidents, COMBINED. Parents should talk to boys about the danger of suicide much more that they talk about drugs and or drowning. Cause of death by age and gender, EU, 2010: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/databrowser/view/HLTH_CD_ANR__custom_2802414/bookmark/table?lang=en&bookmarkId=d8aab007-8a00-46b1-b493-1b4b9c7c7261 https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/databrowser/view/HLTH_CD_ANR__...

96 points by manuelabeledo 4y ago

My expectation was that "stay at home" increased isolation and loneliness, which in turn increased suicide. Their data says that my expectation is wrong - it didn't increase suicide. The abstract hints that bullying is the issue, and bullying is a lot harder when everyone's staying at home. Was the isolation not that bad? Or is it just that the bullying was worse? Their data says that suicides rise in August, when everyone returns to school. Over and over here we've seen claims that school is really unhealthy; these people have data that confirms it.

moshegramovsky 4y ago
[dead]
juanani 4y ago
[dead]
whatshisface 4y ago
Let's try unpacking the case you must be imagining to arrive at that expectation. If the kid had any friends, they wouldn't be isolated when school was closed, so we must be imagining a kid with no friends. If we're imagining a kid with no friends, they must not be getting on very well at school. Well, so much for the expectation, eh?
- quickthrower2 4y ago
  Depends if the Uber drivers, mum and dad are available to do the drop offs and pick ups.
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  If they have friends that they never see any more, because school is closed, then they're isolated, right? And before you say "they should just get together", well, they used to get together five days a week, and they probably won't do that, even if they're ignoring the "socially isolate" part.
mym1990 4y ago
Alongside bullying there are a lot of other pressure factors that can intensify feelings of depression. This can be things like peer pressure, or simply being around others but not necessarily feeling like one fits in. Its important to separate school into the learning aspect and the social aspect, and the very negative part of the social piece is likely what drives the suicide rates. From my experience in school, kids are often absolutely brutal to each other, I never really understood where that all comes from...
Traubenfuchs 4y ago
Consider how many people kill themselves from feeling lonely and how many kill themselves from having to go to a place where they are physically and mentally tortured 5 days a week, 8+ hours a day. I was bullied and retrospectively know no other word than torture for what happened to me. And I wasn‘t the worst off victim, we made three classmates leave the school.
- quacked 4y ago
  I also describe it as torture. The conditions many children and young adults experience at school at the hands of their peers would be cause for firing in a corporate environment and even legal action in the adult world.
  - sgjohnson 4y ago
    > The conditions many children and young adults experience at school at the hands of their peers would be cause for firing in a corporate environment and even legal action in the adult world. This isn't really relevant though, because kids are a lot more cruel than adults.
    - Traubenfuchs 4y ago
      Adults are just as cruel, they are merely more aware (or more a subject) of social and legal repercussions.
    - ajuc 4y ago
      Kids are just allowed to get away with it. If adults were allowed to beat others with no consequences - it would be happening everywhere. Sadly - teachers encourage the "macho" "don't tatter, be a man" attitude to have less work. Hence bullying. Imagine if judges did that :) "So he stole your book, so what, be a man, deal with it yourself". "I don't care who beat whom - just shake hands and leave me be"
    - Brian_K_White 4y ago
      Adults created the school environment and place the kids in it, and perpetuate it, and all knowingly. I don't think you can separate adults from the awfulness of school, including the awfulness of kids toward kids, because school isn't a Lord of the Flies situation where the setting happened by itself, and the ongoing proceedings happen without witness and active maintainance. Ask any teacher or admin and they may say "this system has problems", but tomorrow everyone gets up and does all the same stuff, so we are a full participant in this. Me too, even as someone who never had kids. I'm complicit in the sense that even though I went through the process and know how awful it is, now that I'm past that, I'm relieved that this problem and those people (kids) are all kept on some kind of reservation out of my hair. It's really somewhat like packing undesirables away in a compound. Even though I don't have kids, I don't think it would be wrong or unfair to still expect me to have some sort of share in a general collective responsibility (beyond simple taxes) to help raise (and deal with) the young. After all I was one once and could have used a better society, and I still have an interest in it since they are still part of the world I have to inhabit, and are people I will have to deal with. Please don't "If you feel a calling then go work at a school". My point isn't about me or any individual, it's that we all have this vested interest and this responsibility, we've just set things up in such a way that most of us can shirk it without having to face up to that's the essense of what we've done.
quacked 4y ago
A lot of people talk about bullying, which is definitely a possible factor, but I don't think adults remember what it was like to be in school. Unless you don't care about it and ignore your future plans, school invades every part of your senses and monopolizes all of your time. Any new information you intake is sized up for difficulty and likelihood that you'll recall it on a rest. If you fall behind one or two weeks on homework and screw up an exam you can end up an entire grade lower. Then there's the constant attention of people who don't really care about you that you're exposed to all day, whose apathy can be just as damaging as their interest. Online school just wasn't real. Everyone I've talked to said they put in a fraction of the effort required to pass classes online that they did in person, and many people said they had grades practically forgiven. I didn't have too hard of a time in school but I still remember it as immensely stressful, and for little reason. It is easy for someone with a real problem (drugs, bad relationship, abuse, trauma) to spend a few weeks marinating in cortisol as a result of the panopticon of in-person school to become convinced that suicide is the only way out of their negative feelings.
- alar44 4y ago
  Pre-college school isn't stressful for most people.
  - mym1990 4y ago
    Can I ask how many elementary/middle school/high school kids you have worked with?
    - alar44 4y ago
      I fucking was one?
      - ajuc 4y ago
        You aren't "most people" though.
      - mym1990 4y ago
ajuc 4y ago
Isolation when you're a kid means that your parents spend more time with you (remote work) and you don't have to be bullied at school. Win-win? I would have loved isolation when I was at primary school.

rg111 4y ago

Not only lockdowns reduced suicide rates, but, suicide rates in the age group 12-18 is always low in the months of summer vacation. And the data from early 90s to present year confirm that.

petodo 4y ago

Counter view Surge of Student Suicides Pushes Las Vegas Schools to Reopen https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/24/us/politics/student-suicides-nevada-coronavirus.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/24/us/politics/student-suici... bullying is issue, but children mental health during school closings clearly deteriorated if you look at increase in mental related visits, so I doubt results of this study, there might be temporary increase associated with any change, but long term it's definitely healthier if someone in school is able to monitor kids and take care of their mental health, which is going largely unchecked if schools are locked

jmcgough 4y ago
The study uses large, national statistics, and shows a clear pattern on a national level. The article you linked is just for a single school district, which may have unique circumstances. It could also be statistical chance, given the small sample size and single year referenced.
- ianai 4y ago
  LV is a weird, violent place. The schools are designed from prison architecture. The culture is a bunch of people who wanted to move somewhere so far from where they left they’d never be visited. (See the Anthony Bourdain episode as he did it justice.) People routinely move there then leave with a turnover rate of around 7 years. The heat and ultra dry conditions are their own form of violence, too. Pretty sure it consistently ranks low on education scores. Suffice it to say, not a place to raise kids nor use as an example of choices made for their best interests.
  - camgunz 4y ago
    I think it's common to have schools designed/built by the same people who built your jails, who reuse plans. At least, I'm pretty sure a lot of schools in central Indiana (where I mostly grew up) are like this.
- petodo 4y ago
  https://edition.cnn.com/2020/09/11/health/covid-school-closings-depression-suicide-study-trnd/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2020/09/11/health/covid-school-closi... https://thehill.com/opinion/education/588302-closed-schools-more-risky-for-young-people-than-covid/ https://thehill.com/opinion/education/588302-closed-schools-... and tons of other articles while here we have one clickbaity study which says opposite, but sure this one study will be the right one, while literally everyone else is wrong that school closings are harmful and very bad for children mental health

AngriestLettuce 4y ago

This is not surprising, but not for the reasons the authors imagine. Of course going back to jail after being free would make any kid who values his own autonomy depressed. School in its current form is awful, because it's far too authoritarian and preachy, not because "bullying". You wouldn't have issues with bullying if you didn't force kids who don't like each other to interact without oversight in the first place. Oversight is key, when you know kids don't like each other, don't put them together again until you know they're cool again. It's hard being a little person.

plsbenice34 4y ago
I thought the same. Schools are very, very much like prison and the schedule is so intense. I have so many issues with it. Many children seem to say they enjoy school, but I bet they aren't the ones at risk of suicide. Bullying is a symptom/consequence of the unhealthy prison-like environment.
- ajuc 4y ago
  I enjoyed high school (because I wasn't bullied, had friends and was doing well). I was bullied in primary school and hated it. I still did well grades-wise. If you weren't bullied seriously you probably can't understand how big of a deal it is for small kids. Like psychological-issues-30-years-later serious.
  - ianai 4y ago
    Agree. I was bullied horrifically through the 10th year of public school. I even attempted to fight back against the bullies and was punished for that by the school. The effects linger to this day 20+ years later.
  - plsbenice34 4y ago
    I understand how serious it can be. I think in a healthy environment you would more often be able to escape and avoid interactions with bullies. It is unnatural to the extreme to be pushed and forced into randomly chosen social groups and forced to interact according to an extremely fixed schedule, in fixed locations, etc. It leads to damaging abusive interactions with others who take advantage of that situation. Bullies know that you can't get away. I had a situation where I was literally forced to sit next to someone I hated for months - I can't think of anywhere that could happen except prison and school

vegetablepotpie 4y ago

The authors considered other possibilities for the reduction in teen suicide: > There could be a number of explanations for these findings. Families spending time together during a period of fear and uncertainty may have generated important mental health benefits for teenagers. Moreover, increased communication between parents and teenagers, as well as increased monitoring (both of behaviors and psychological health) may have yielded important psychological gains for teenagers. In addition, the absence of in-person schooling could have helped teenagers avoid negative peer effects of in-person bullying. Or, it may be that reductions in pressures associated with high-stakes exams, athletics, or romantic relationships may have reduced triggers for suicide ideation. In the final section of this paper, we empirically explore a few potential channels. As someone who has gone to public school, I know the answer is bullying. The authors were careful to point out that they do not advocate shutting down in person schooling because it can also offer positive mental health benefits. But you have to wonder, between teachers, guidance counselors, and administrators, you would think someone would notice some bullying behavior. Could it be that collectively the adults tasked with overseeing children are, understaffed, unempowered, ignorant, complicit, or do the facilitate or lead this behavior?

connectsnk 4y ago
On teacher empowerment, there are two views : One is that the teachers have been stripped off all powers. Just today I was reading some article from hacker news where the teacher was complaining that all kids from the latest freshman year gave her/him the finger when they were asked to show their hall pass. Other side of the argument is that if teachers are empowered, then it is documented sufficiently that some teachers (not all) absolutely abuse their power and exploit/harm kids in even worse ways. I dont know whats the solution. I hope I come out more wise from someones comment here.
- ianai 4y ago
  Smaller class sizes would probably help as a blunt measure. Might have to be down to 5-1 or 10-1 to really know it’s controlled though. And this isn’t practical. If my hunch that bullies are products of abuse or otherwise need psychological help is true then trying to identify and help bullies and their victims could help.

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jeandejean 4y ago

I guess learning to live together in a society and putting yourself at risk of other's judgement is more stressful than the comfort of your house where everything you need is provided for by hardworking parents... But that's a very necessary step towards growing up.

mabcat 4y ago
From the study, in-person schooling increases teen suicides by 12-18%. Is this fatality rate acceptable on the basis that it's "very necessary" to socialize the remaining children in this way? Is there evidence that kids in online classes wouldn't have "grown up"? I find this line of thinking abhorrent. If it will reduce suicides by 15%, in-person schooling should be stopped outright until someone fixes what's wrong with it.
- jeandejean 4y ago
  I understand this can be shocking, but to me excessive precautions (such as no in-person school to avoid suicides), just lead to another ripple effect that is extremely detrimental to us as a society. The problem needs to be addressed for sure, but it doesn't mean home schooling is superior to in person.
ajuc 4y ago
Society is nothing like school though. Who has 30 friends all the same age that you spend most of your life with and that you can't change for the next 5-8-11 years? School is organized the way it is, because we need workers and soldiers. Not because we want kids to behave better or to "grow up". People "grew up" before we had schools.
- chadcmulligan 4y ago
  Schools were made to get people used to working fixed hours and teach them the minimal skills required to operate the mills [1]. It's really time to rethink schools (and work). [1]Behemoth: A History of the Factory and the Making of the Modern World

mandmandam 4y ago

A lot of people here pointing to bullying as a major issue, while not knowing what to do about it. So, I'll point out that the KiVa [0] program from Finland has been proven to reduce bullying by a huge amount. It has been running for years now, with repeated success. [0] - https://steptohealth.com/kiva-method-bullying-and-school-harassment/ https://steptohealth.com/kiva-method-bullying-and-school-har...

orwin 4y ago

Isn't this very US-centric? or is it true in europe as well? We French have the worse schools in europe according to PISA, where we score around the same as the US. According to data, too much emphasis on grade, too much pressure, school is mostly good for children who already do well (we would rank in the top if only the top 5% was ranked), but bad for the rest. Interestingly, we also have on of the higher teen suicide rate of europe. But we do not have as much bullying issues as it seems US have if i read the comments right. Or at least did not when i was there, nor when i was a youth camp counselor, or "speaker" in school (i brought science experiments, gears and stuff for 6-11yo and did cool stuff with an association). I don't remember any isolated kid when i was in middle school, and i guess in highschool "I" was the most bullied kid at the start of the year (playing violin in the school boarding facilities when the school was 70% technical/trade and 30% generalist do not help), but i mean, people overall were great and the education team helped me past the first few months until my natural charm and bad jokes did the work and offset the out-of-tune sounds (joking, but not entirely). Are those hn comments representative of the overall bullying in public school in the US? We do have bullying in France though, i don't mean to say we are good on this point, and from what i managed to understand in my few years around the education system, those who have the greatest impact are the directors (school or youth camp). A good director will have meeting with this team where he talks about children with special needs, or children who are especially needy ("attention whore" is the special term internet came with, which says a lot about how charitable and nice we are with each other naturally), and help professors or counselors manage those needs. With permanent emphasis on this, the "bad elements" are peer-pressured into doing better (in my experience as a counselor, but its probably the same for teachers). Those with the second greatest impact are people at the departement of education who allocate budgets and basically decide how many children per teacher. Teachers themselves are a most third, at least 5th behind parents and the community.

Macha 4y ago
We had 3 suicides in my high school class of 24, so certainly true in at least some places in the EU also.

mensetmanusman 4y ago

It sounds like we need a way to tap people on the shoulder and force them to do online schooling for some duration and/or summer school. Eg, a hint of bullying gives you a two week online-only experience that increases in duration for repeat offenses. They could find a room at the library or something.

barbazoo 4y ago
Is there any evidence that that actually improves anything?
- mensetmanusman 4y ago
  Reduces harm from those bullying.
  - barbazoo 4y ago
    I meant evidence in the form of studies showing that punishment less to people stopping being bullies for instance.
    - mensetmanusman 4y ago
      It won’t stop people from bullying, just reduce the amount of integrated time a bully has access to victims. It’s an obvious solution that would work to some extent. Bullies don’t deserve the right to be at school when they could learn online if they are pushing people to suicide.
      - barbazoo 4y ago
        I don't know, this sounds an awful lot like the justification for harsh punishment for crimes the benefit of which is controversial as well. Just because you throw people in jail doesn't make the problem go away either, sure they're off the street for a while but the "cost" to society is still huge.

michael1999 4y ago

The school-months and school-days are long known to have the highest rate of teen suicide. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/childrens-risk-of-suicide-increases-on-school-days/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/childrens-risk-of...

dandare 4y ago

Fun fact: boys are more likely to die as a result of suicide than as a result of an attack or stabbing, use of drugs, accidental poisoning, drowning, fall and any other kind of accident, except for traffic accidents, COMBINED. Parents should talk to boys about the danger of suicide much more that they talk about drugs and or drowning. Cause of death by age and gender, EU, 2010: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/databrowser/view/HLTH_CD_ANR__custom_2802414/bookmark/table?lang=en&bookmarkId=d8aab007-8a00-46b1-b493-1b4b9c7c7261 https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/databrowser/view/HLTH_CD_ANR__...