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Seller details of high-volume business sellers, mind you. With additional provisions to protect the privacy of individuals. I generally agree with the law. Mar

by crote 4y ago

Seller details of high-volume business sellers, mind you. With additional provisions to protect the privacy of individuals. I generally agree with the law. Marketplaces like this have long been used as a front for scamming, and with the anonymity provided there are basically zero repercussions. If i am doing business with someone I want to know who I am doing business with, so that there is at least the possibility of taking legal actions. Now let's hope we'll soon see similar regulations for Amazon sellers, ideally with some way to prevent commingling inventory. The only thing which stands out to me is the relatively low monetary threshold: $5000 might be a lot in revenue if you are selling something like second-hand clothing, but something like a single car or camera can easily put you over that limit already. The bill refers to "high-volume sellers", and defines that as a) 200 orders, or b) $5000. It does make sense to protect high-value sales too, especially considering that the information only needs to be disclosed to the marketplace at that point - providing the information to the buyer only needs to happen at $20.000 and at that point you are definitely a business - but it is interesting that they do not seem to explicitly state so.

fgsgfsdgfdg 4y ago
[flagged]
- matthewmacleod 4y ago
  Nobody said that – in fact, they explicitly stated concerns around this issue – and this is a bad-faith comment.
  - fgsgfsdgfdg 4y ago
    Why is it bad faith? "In addition, marketplaces would have to disclose a business seller’s full name, address, phone number, and email address, only allowing for some limited protections for home-based businesses."
    - jakear 4y ago
      This doesn't apply to Craigslist, it only applies to marketplaces (where the platform is in charge of collecting and distributing fees). Regardless, for personal sellers the only required disclosure is country and state of operation.
    - dang 4y ago
      Could you please stop creating accounts for every few comments you post? We ban accounts that do that. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. You needn't use your real name, of course, but for HN to be a community, users need some identity for other users to relate to. Otherwise we may as well have no usernames and no community, and that would be a different kind of forum. https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix&page=0&query=community%20identity%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
AussieWog93 4y ago
>Marketplaces like this have long been used as a front for scamming Commercial eBay seller here. Honestly, it's been damn near impossible to scam someone via eBay (as a seller, at least) since around 2008, when they introduced mandatory PayPal payments by default. Managed Payments (rolled out during the pandemic) makes it even harder to scam as a seller. There's still the perceptions that hang around from the early days, but buyer protections and reversible payment methods controlled by eBay themselves have successfully scared away the scammers. The only fraud you still get is friendly fraud from buyers.
- WarOnPrivacy 4y ago
  > Honestly, it's been damn near impossible to scam someone via eBay (as a seller, at least) since around 2008, when they introduced mandatory PayPal payments by default. Managed Payments (rolled out during the pandemic) makes it even harder to scam as a seller. This seems like a fairly important facet of this discussion.
- gjsman-1000 4y ago
  It’s plenty easy to scam people on eBay if you’re smart. I collect movies - and eBay has sent me bootleg DVDs and box sets countless times. They’re pretty convincing - even with stickers on the shrink wrap - but they are bootlegs regardless (sometimes poor printing, single instead of dual layer discs, no copy protection, etc.). eBay almost always makes me send them back despite my evidence, so I unfortunately know someone else will get scammed next time, but what else can be done? Counterfeit Nintendo 64 cartridges are also becoming very widespread. eBay also sent me counterfeit AirPods Pro once. Very convincing box and look and feel, but the atrocious noise cancelling was the giveaway. It even made the little AirPods pop-up on your iPhone.
  - AussieWog93 4y ago
    This is fair - they don't fight counterfeits as well as they possibly could (and frankly never have. 15 years ago it was the same thing with counterfeits). That's not normally what people are talking about when they mention online scams, though.
scarface74 4y ago
How does this stop someone from setting up a virtual address, phone number, EIN, etc to hide behind?
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  Or the classic: a corporation or LLC.
  - cobertos 4y ago
    You have to provide government issued ID if you are a high volume seller that is a business and not an individual. There are also different rules about address disclosure for corporations. Per the blog post
    - scarface74 4y ago
      This from the article > However, sellers that are not individuals (businesses) must provide a valid personal government ID on behalf of the seller (business) or provide a valid government-issued record or tax document that includes the business name and physical address. This is easy to do. https://ipostal1.com/virtual-business-address-plans-pricing.php https://ipostal1.com/virtual-business-address-plans-pricing.... I use 1Postal as my “virtual mailbox” now that my wife and I fly across the US six months out of the year and our “home” the other six months is a unit in a “Condotel” in Florida that we own that doesn’t accept mail. It specifically shows up as a physical address for post office coding and lookup purposes and not a PO Box. Setting up an LLC is also easy to do and relatively cheap using sites like nolo.com.
- charlieyu1 4y ago
  Most regulations just screw up average people while being completely toothless against the actual criminals.
- mritun 4y ago
  Yes, it’s easy for a criminal to do that. However, then they escalate from simple marketplace fraud (which is very hard to prosecute) to committing wire-fraud which is not just a federal felony but also carries stringent punishment and is much easier to prosecute. For evidence, see the trial of Elizabeth Holmes and SBF.
sokoloff 4y ago
I’ve bought two cars on EBay that were more than $20K each, neither from a business. I felt like I could already get as much info as I wanted to go through with the sales (both of which went smoothly), so I’m not sure a single transaction of $25K (or even perhaps any amount) means I need this additional policy. Single transactions the buyer is more likely to bother to go chase if they go sideways anyway.
mike_hock 4y ago
> The only thing which stands out to me is the relatively low monetary threshold Which is typical for laws like this. Make the essence of the law something most people would agree with ("disclose high-volume sellers"), then define some ridiculous numbers so what the law actually means is disclose the details of anyone who does any semi-serious business there and doesn't just sell the odd used sweater.
ComposedPattern 4y ago
> If i am doing business with someone I want to know who I am doing business with, so that there is at least the possibility of taking legal actions. If you don't want to buy from Joe Anonymous, that's your choice. But if I want to, why should the government prohibit it?
- wpietri 4y ago
  For the same reason a lot of marketplace regulation exists in effective societies where markets are key to economic functioning. A good marketplace develops consumer trust. Parasites will try to exploit that, creating bad experiences and diminishing that trust. But that is bad not just for the consumers getting scammed, but both the marketplace and society at large. It's also bad for society to have lots of money ending up in the hand of criminals, because they will then go do more crime. And note this doesn't stop you from doing business with Joe Anonymous. You just can't do it on an online marketplace. But you can always just not look at the details if you want, so you can get the experience you seek with a little custom CSS.

by crote 4y ago

fgsgfsdgfdg 4y ago

[flagged]

matthewmacleod 4y ago
Nobody said that – in fact, they explicitly stated concerns around this issue – and this is a bad-faith comment.
- fgsgfsdgfdg 4y ago
  Why is it bad faith? "In addition, marketplaces would have to disclose a business seller’s full name, address, phone number, and email address, only allowing for some limited protections for home-based businesses."
  - jakear 4y ago
    This doesn't apply to Craigslist, it only applies to marketplaces (where the platform is in charge of collecting and distributing fees). Regardless, for personal sellers the only required disclosure is country and state of operation.
  - dang 4y ago
    Could you please stop creating accounts for every few comments you post? We ban accounts that do that. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. You needn't use your real name, of course, but for HN to be a community, users need some identity for other users to relate to. Otherwise we may as well have no usernames and no community, and that would be a different kind of forum. https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix&page=0&query=community%20identity%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...

AussieWog93 4y ago

>Marketplaces like this have long been used as a front for scamming Commercial eBay seller here. Honestly, it's been damn near impossible to scam someone via eBay (as a seller, at least) since around 2008, when they introduced mandatory PayPal payments by default. Managed Payments (rolled out during the pandemic) makes it even harder to scam as a seller. There's still the perceptions that hang around from the early days, but buyer protections and reversible payment methods controlled by eBay themselves have successfully scared away the scammers. The only fraud you still get is friendly fraud from buyers.

WarOnPrivacy 4y ago
> Honestly, it's been damn near impossible to scam someone via eBay (as a seller, at least) since around 2008, when they introduced mandatory PayPal payments by default. Managed Payments (rolled out during the pandemic) makes it even harder to scam as a seller. This seems like a fairly important facet of this discussion.
gjsman-1000 4y ago
It’s plenty easy to scam people on eBay if you’re smart. I collect movies - and eBay has sent me bootleg DVDs and box sets countless times. They’re pretty convincing - even with stickers on the shrink wrap - but they are bootlegs regardless (sometimes poor printing, single instead of dual layer discs, no copy protection, etc.). eBay almost always makes me send them back despite my evidence, so I unfortunately know someone else will get scammed next time, but what else can be done? Counterfeit Nintendo 64 cartridges are also becoming very widespread. eBay also sent me counterfeit AirPods Pro once. Very convincing box and look and feel, but the atrocious noise cancelling was the giveaway. It even made the little AirPods pop-up on your iPhone.
- AussieWog93 4y ago
  This is fair - they don't fight counterfeits as well as they possibly could (and frankly never have. 15 years ago it was the same thing with counterfeits). That's not normally what people are talking about when they mention online scams, though.

scarface74 4y ago

How does this stop someone from setting up a virtual address, phone number, EIN, etc to hide behind?

Scoundreller 4y ago
Or the classic: a corporation or LLC.
- cobertos 4y ago
  You have to provide government issued ID if you are a high volume seller that is a business and not an individual. There are also different rules about address disclosure for corporations. Per the blog post
  - scarface74 4y ago
    This from the article > However, sellers that are not individuals (businesses) must provide a valid personal government ID on behalf of the seller (business) or provide a valid government-issued record or tax document that includes the business name and physical address. This is easy to do. https://ipostal1.com/virtual-business-address-plans-pricing.php https://ipostal1.com/virtual-business-address-plans-pricing.... I use 1Postal as my “virtual mailbox” now that my wife and I fly across the US six months out of the year and our “home” the other six months is a unit in a “Condotel” in Florida that we own that doesn’t accept mail. It specifically shows up as a physical address for post office coding and lookup purposes and not a PO Box. Setting up an LLC is also easy to do and relatively cheap using sites like nolo.com.
charlieyu1 4y ago
Most regulations just screw up average people while being completely toothless against the actual criminals.
mritun 4y ago
Yes, it’s easy for a criminal to do that. However, then they escalate from simple marketplace fraud (which is very hard to prosecute) to committing wire-fraud which is not just a federal felony but also carries stringent punishment and is much easier to prosecute. For evidence, see the trial of Elizabeth Holmes and SBF.

sokoloff 4y ago

I’ve bought two cars on EBay that were more than $20K each, neither from a business. I felt like I could already get as much info as I wanted to go through with the sales (both of which went smoothly), so I’m not sure a single transaction of $25K (or even perhaps any amount) means I need this additional policy. Single transactions the buyer is more likely to bother to go chase if they go sideways anyway.

mike_hock 4y ago

> The only thing which stands out to me is the relatively low monetary threshold Which is typical for laws like this. Make the essence of the law something most people would agree with ("disclose high-volume sellers"), then define some ridiculous numbers so what the law actually means is disclose the details of anyone who does any semi-serious business there and doesn't just sell the odd used sweater.

ComposedPattern 4y ago

> If i am doing business with someone I want to know who I am doing business with, so that there is at least the possibility of taking legal actions. If you don't want to buy from Joe Anonymous, that's your choice. But if I want to, why should the government prohibit it?

wpietri 4y ago
For the same reason a lot of marketplace regulation exists in effective societies where markets are key to economic functioning. A good marketplace develops consumer trust. Parasites will try to exploit that, creating bad experiences and diminishing that trust. But that is bad not just for the consumers getting scammed, but both the marketplace and society at large. It's also bad for society to have lots of money ending up in the hand of criminals, because they will then go do more crime. And note this doesn't stop you from doing business with Joe Anonymous. You just can't do it on an online marketplace. But you can always just not look at the details if you want, so you can get the experience you seek with a little custom CSS.