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Caroline Ellison and Gary Wang are cooperating in the criminal case against SBF
- faizmokhtar 4y agoI find the timing of the announcement somewhat interesting. Just right when SBF is en route to NY.
- dbt00 4y agoI noticed that too, I imagine it was given to the press with an embargo until SBF was on the plane.
- satellites 4y agoGood catch. I assume it was to mitigate the risk of him fighting the extradition or outright fleeing. If he had known their case was this strong, with his former colleagues flipping on him, I wonder if he would have agreed to be extradited or if he would have tried to delay it. (Or maybe he already knew and it’s just a coincidence).
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- infrawhispers 4y agoSEC Complaint with more details. https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2022-234 https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2022-234 I have read more SEC complaints this year than in all of my previous years combined. —- Edit 1 Caroline’s guilty plea: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23495436-crypto-cooperator-ftx-alamedas-caroline-ellisons-plea-agreement-inner-city-press-on-the-case https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23495436-crypto-coop...
- moab 4y ago110 years! I wonder how many she'll get out of that for being the first out of the woodwork.
- tptacek 4y agoThe "maximum" sentence here isn't even a theoretical maximum; it's just what happens if you take the statutory limit on what could be sentenced in the worst possible combination of circumstances, and it assumes that charges don't group or get served concurrently. It's annoying that they cite this number at all, because it simply has no bearing as to how things get sentenced in reality.
- tiahura 4y agoIsn’t the size of the fraud one of the major factors in the guidelines? If so, it may not be 110 years, but it’s got to be a big number?
- mikeyouse 4y agoThe number does indeed get larger with bigger losses - but most of the charges also have statutory maximums (e.g. 20yrs for wire fraud) and they'll almost certainly be served concurrently. With this level of fraud a sentence approaching 10 years might be in play, but we'll have to see what the prosecutors say.
- agotterer 4y agoElizabeth Holmes was sentenced to 11 years and she didn’t steal any money for personal gain. Madoff was sentenced to 150 years. Based on what we know so far about Caroline’s misuse (abuse) of funds and possible mass market manipulation all of which has resulted in billions of dollars in investor losses. 10 years in this case seems light, no?
- random314 4y agoElizabeth did use the money for personal gain, to sponsor an extremely lavish lifestyle and billing luxury home rental expenses,chartered flights, security details and private investigators to the Theranos account. Sunny Balwani, otoh, didn't benefit, wasn't the CEO, didn't make most of the false statements and got a heavier sentence.
- dannyw 4y agoActual complaint / PDF: https://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2022/comp-pr2022-234.pdf https://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2022/comp-pr2022-2...
- rippercushions 4y agoInteresting: On page 4, there's a section listing out the crimes she will not be further prosecuted for. As you'd expect this includes the 7 counts listed earlier, but there's also an 8th section that's been redacted. Any ideas on what this could be referring to?
- elliekelly 4y agoI assumed it was related to campaign finance because that is noticeably absent but it’s possible she/Alameda weren’t involved in that aspect of the grift.
- jcampbell1 4y agoI suspect she had some involvement with the campaign contributions which SBF is facing charges. My guess is it details some facts about her involvement, and then says she won’t be charged assuming major new facts don’t emerge.
- artdigital 4y agoWait, so she won't be prosecuted despite pleading guilty? Or how does this work?
- dragonwriter 4y ago> Wait, so she won't be prosecuted despite pleading guilty? She won't be further prosecuted (i. e., beyond the charges she is pleading guilty to) for conduct related to the acts specified, if she cooperates fully as agreed. In other words, supposing there are other charges related to that cobduct which could be filed, DoJ is bound not to pursue them if she upholds her end of the agreement. If she does not, DoJ can add those additional charges on top of the existing charges (or, replacing the existing charges with more serious ones related to the same conduct.)
- gumby 4y agoThanks for explaining some of the subtleties of these kinds of agreements. I hope (and assume) these details will have no practical value to my life! But it's good to know how the world works.
- gadders 4y agoI hope they all do jail time or none of them do. Also, reading what SBF says about his lawyer, he seems a bit sketchy as well (but obviously that is a one-sided account).
- B4CKlash 4y agoThe prisoner's dilemma strikes again.
- DaveExeter 4y agoRats!
- tosc 4y agoSounds like it was maggots.
- samfisher83 4y agoThere was so much evidence that even if everyone stayed silent they weren't getting off.
- blurbleblurble 4y agoWhen's the last time SBF stayed silent though
- somethoughts 4y agoIt's like advanced level Prisoner's dilemma being played by prisoners who all took graduate level coursework in game theory. The lack of cooperation among the prisoners probably signals that they realize they aren't playing a version of iterated prisoner's dilemma any more.
- niyikiza 4y ago"Late stage" iterated PD.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- ceejayoz 4y agoNotably: > Ellison and Wang are cooperating with the SEC’s ongoing investigation...
- ceejayoz 4y agoHuh. This got merged in from another thread, and now I look like a doofus.
- thinking4real 4y agoOof I didn’t realize that was a feature. That seems like a very poor feature with no UI to acknowledge the fact.
- shagie 4y agoGift link: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/21/technology/ftx-fraud-guilty-pleas.html?unlocked_article_code=U-th8x5lRT00UjjR6O5FlmQY1A_2W7kZDVAeRKr14S_4Kl_LV3Hr97iqf09v_DNcJLmLQhitSLlDAtIjADwoEZXRt_fNzLVHOmOYCwN8Gj6WoqVwk5oPbEbziPSKqc7H0VkUDdph5jFT6kRfUHEgk8vzLeHAaFSc2y5PGUJk2N3ERIBfBZmatDiFG8kU0ZsA1j7BRQPQKIUWlpevSRJ3KtNJtgSc2P02wMmHUQc7nnIOtr5rleNVDHwZvHE8zW9UQl08Yvx9dPiDunXRvtbksec1Tx9kM8g-2QvJzF0bASf_74kgcsUKj7CJgCtI8Sdi5VCYQ5qW2VhPkru33ImdHVaO7A&smid=share-url https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/21/technology/ftx-fraud-guil...
- braingenious 4y ago
- bitxbitxbitcoin 4y agoI think that goes against HN rules.
- braingenious 4y agoI think “This is a hilarious turn of events” could be a useful start of a thoughtful conversation about the events surrounding the FTX collapse. I do not think reiterating one’s interpretation of rules that everyone already knows is particularly useful or on topic.
- jakear 4y agoThis is pretty much the exact outcome one would expect, no? The only question I have is if/when Sam Trabucco gets charged… he’s managed to stay in the shadows much better than his colleagues.
- braingenious 4y agoThe speed at which it happened is the funniest part for me. The fact that SBF has been doing a nonstop tour of “I couldn’t have done fraud because I’m just too darn stupid. I didn’t know what was happening because I’m a dullard, a dunce, a fool of incomparable naïveté!” makes this incredibly funny. Dude tried so hard to throw his polycule mate under the bus, but it doesn’t look like that was the best strategy.
- indigodaddy 4y agoI was thinking the same thing. This is entirely normal.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- TotoHorner 4y agoHope both of them spend some time in prison too. It would be pretty insane if don't go to prison as part of a plea deal (where they testify against SBF or something).
- ericliuche 4y agoCurious to see if they also strike a deal with Nishad Singh. He was the director of engineering at FTX that supposedly authored the code that exempted Alameda from liquidation.
- ALittleLight 4y agoHow many deals do they need? I'm afraid of prosecutors cutting too many deals, being too lenient on the guilty, just to make their jobs easier - making practically certain cases 1% more certain in exchange for not punishing appropriately. I think it's good to get one or two insiders - Ellison and Wang seem ideal. Why does the state need more?
- HWR_14 4y agoIt depends on how lenient they are. Many times, deals just for pleading guilty are a thing, leaving conspiracies aside.
- ALittleLight 4y agoThat's also bad. Prosecutors hold a huge sentence over people and compel them to confess - it's a kind of hypothetical torture, forcing you to confess by the bad stuff they'll probably do to you. Prosecutors, along with their investigators, should come to a position on whether a party is guilty and if so what punishment they deserve. They should then make that case in court. Courts would need much greater throughput to handle this, but the current method seems much worse.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- dragonwriter 4y ago> How many deals do they need? I'm afraid of prosecutors cutting too many deals, being too lenient on the guilty, just to make their jobs easier Saving taxpayer money, too.
- superkuh 4y agoNothing here happened on a blockchain. If it had there wouldn't have been problems. This is a typical finance market scam.
- 77pt77 4y agoKind of. One-coin fits your description better.
- HN_is_for_gemes 4y agoSBF would have scammed with anything instrument, only the media and gov wants you to believe it had anything to do with crypto
- maxbond 4y agoIf people will run scams in crypto the same as they'll run scams in tradfi - shouldn't they be regulated the same, too?
- timmytokyo 4y agoCryptocurrency is, in many ways, especially useful for fraud. It's relatively anonymous, which makes transactions between individuals more difficult to track. It's unregulated, so there are fewer safeguards against fraud. It's complex, so scammers are able to prey on more people who don't fully understand it. And it's unprotected, in the sense that consumers usually have no recourse in the event that they are scammed. Can traditional financial instruments (like cash, securities or commodities) be used for fraud? Absolutely. But it's not as easy.
- neilv 4y ago> Both were involved in effective altruism — a community focused on using data to maximize the long-term impact of charitable donations. > She got into crypto, she explained on another episode, because she was hoping to make lots of money to give away as part of her commitment to effective altruism. Should the term be capitalized, as Effective Altruism? It seems to be a new, branded definition, and not in common usage like the generic terms effective and altruism. It's also bringing some bad associations to good old-fashioned altruism. Also, in the space of questionable philosophy appealing to insulated rich kids, Objectivism is already capitalized.
- dmix 4y agoCuriously this was flagged @dang? I personally can't tell why.
- EGreg 4y agoBasically, it seems that earn to give isnt the best way. Billionaires like Jeff Bezos got that way by building a very successful organization that helps a lot of consumers (being able to do so thanks yo wage slavery until automation started kicking in). Since then, it has grown a lot and Bezos has to do nothing to reap the benefits but keep his shares. But just because Bezos built one great thing that helps so many consumers, does that make him the best at giving away wealth? He claims it is actually HARD to do effectively. His ex-wife seems to bave given a lot more than he has. And Warren Buffett outsourced it to Bill Gates. And tons if people even hate Bill Gates for his vaccination programs in Africa - despite eradicating Polio. Bill also speaks to world leaders and wants to spray mist in the atmosphere to cool the planet. And kill all mosquitoes. Pretty big plans. Plus Bill buys a huge amount of farmland for some reason. What makes people think central planning would be the best way to allocate donations in the world?
- agentultra 4y agoThere are no such things as benevolent billionaires. There’s a problem with a society that enables billionaires to exist at all. It shouldn’t even be possible but we’re here for a lot of reasons. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0Cu6EbELZ6I https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0Cu6EbELZ6I
- moralestapia 4y agoI hope they get much more than a slap on the wrist, even though they're cooperating now. They're as much liable as SBF in this whole scheme. Also, where's Sam Trabucco?
- monero-xmr 4y agoRyan Salame took out $60 million in “loans” from FTX, donated tens of millions to republicans, and bought up a bunch of restaurants in the Berkshires. How are all these guys not being arrested?
- ceejayoz 4y ago> How are all these guys not being arrested? This article is about precisely the process in which that happens. They now have cooperating witnesses with significant internal visbility into what went on, and more importantly, people who can speak to the intention behind what went on.
- saalweachter 4y ago<fraud discovered> "These people will never see a day in prison." <surprisingly fast case made against the principals> "Well, what about this other guy over there?"
- xiphias2 4y agoDoes this cooperation mean that those fraudsters don't go to prison? The whole team knew about stealing billions of dollars of money, clearly there's more than 1 person (and more than 1 company's executives) that need prison time.
- ceejayoz 4y agoIt means they get less prison time in exchange for helping prove the cases that give lots of prison time to others.
- disqard 4y agoYup, there's no dilemma among the potential prisoners here -- the best policy is to "do the rat thing".
- greenyoda 4y agoAs the letter mentions, that's entirely up to the sentencing judge to decide. All the DOJ can do is to inform the judge that Ellison cooperated with them.
- ceejayoz 4y agoProsecutors can't promise the judge will do anything; the judge doesn't work for them. However, judges have the same vested interest in honoring these deals as the prosecutors do; the prosecutors or the defendant have to really piss off the judge to have it disregarded entirely.
- tootie 4y agoIt doesn't say specifically but if there was a grant of immunity it would probably say so. More likely they are pleading guilty which usually gets a lesser sentence in exchange for full cooperation and no trial.
- elliekelly 4y agoWell she’s agreed to plead guilty so she definitely wasn’t granted immunity...
- jcampbell1 4y agoIn previous discussions, I said there was a 0% chance she got some sort of deal. I was downvoted to hell, but this guilty plea shows how it works in real life, not TV. The deal is you cooperate voluntarily and the court is allowed to provide sentencing leniency. The only thing she gets is the prosecution agrees to tell the court she cooperated.
- ceejayoz 4y ago> The only thing she gets is the prosecution agrees to tell the court she cooperated. That is the deal. It's a cooperating plea deal; prosecutors will accept a much smaller sentence (out of the very wide ranges available) if they follow through on the coperating part.
- jcampbell1 4y agoExactly. People were throwing out potential immunity, or other complete nonsense for cooperation. There weren’t even discussions about recommended prison time as that can blow the prosecutions case against SBF. The idea that there is some agreement for say 5 years recommended is not on the table in this type of situation.
- ceejayoz 4y ago> People were throwing out potential immunity... Yes, getting off scot-free seems unlikely. > The idea that there is some agreement for say 5 years recommended is not on the table in this type of situation. Sure it is. The Feds will ask to suspend sentencing on these charges until their cooperation is completed. If they cooperate appropriately, they'll spend much less time in prison than if they'd pled not guitly.
- elliekelly 4y ago> The idea that there is some agreement for say 5 years recommended is not on the table in this type of situation. That is absolutely the situation. That’s why you take the deal. They got her to plead to seven counts! There’s almost certainly an agreed-upon recommended sentencing.
- somethoughts 4y agoToo bad HBO's Silicon Valley isn't still going. The writers would have had a field day.
- ww520 4y agoThe sequel Silicoin Wallet cannot be too bad.
- codezero 4y agoI think the actual crypto story lines are too preposterous to be funny. :)
- stevenwoo 4y agoThey had some on Mythic Quest this season that were surpassed by reality before they aired.
- somethoughts 4y agoI think while the casting of SBF character would be hilarious, the casting of the Caroline Ellison character would take it over the top.
- pram 4y agoI mean they're pretty much Gwart and the rest of the stallions.
- somethoughts 4y agoThanks for that - now I can't unsee that!
- minikomi 4y agoI think it would make a good bighead storyline
- TotoHorner 4y agoUnfortunately it seems like almost all the talented writers left after season 3/4. Seasons 1 and 2 were absolutely hysterical and amazing, but by the end the writing got really terrible.
- lordfrito 4y agoAny ideas why these prosecutions are moving forward so fast? Usually this stuff takes forever as evidence is carefully gathered. Curious if anyone has any insights here.
- RhodesianHunter 4y agoI'm going to guess plea deals.
- egl2021 4y agoLikely the prosecution's case is strong, e.g. there is a hard-to-disguise paper trail that clearly implicates these first cooperators.
- ttul 4y agoLiterally because they have found two cooperating witnesses, who have provided much of the information prosecutors need to convict Mr. SBF.
- akerl_ 4y agoThis is what happens when your top lieutenants flip on you for plea deals and you provide the government piles of evidence by doing continuous media interviews and your attempts to disguise your fraud amount to saying "crypto" while you wave your hands.
- LastTrain 4y agoBecause there is an administration in power that is more willing to prioritize prosecuting financial crimes.
- michaelteter 4y agoNot necessarily disuputing this, but do you have anything to back up this claim?
- andirk 4y agoAnd the previous administration never prosecuted any financial crimes, especially not Elizabth Holmes, right? "In June 2018, Theranos announced that Holmes was stepping down as CEO. On the same day, the Department of Justice announced that a federal grand jury had charged Holmes, along with Balwani, with nine counts of wire fraud and two counts of conspiracy to commit wire fraud." [0] [0] https://www.businessinsider.com/theranos-founder-ceo-elizabeth-holmes-life-story-bio-2018-4#in-june-2018-theranos-announced-that-holmes-was-stepping-down-as-ceo-on-the-same-day-the-department-of-justice-announced-that-a-federal-grand-jury-had-charged-holmes-along-with-balwani-with-nine-counts-of-wire-fraud-and-two-counts-of-conspiracy-to-commit-wire-fraud-39 https://www.businessinsider.com/theranos-founder-ceo-elizabe...
- paulpauper 4y agoif you engage in financial fraud, prepare for everyone to snitch on you
- paulpauper 4y agoThis was inevitable. All their money and reputation is gone. They stand to face many decades in prison. What choice do they have. Anyone who engages in financial fraud should prepare for all their friends to rat them out. There are no friends.
- DrFunke 4y ago>decades in prison Something tells me they'll be okay. Just look at Liz Holmes of Theranos.
- ffssffss 4y agoShe got 11 years of which she'll have to serve at least around 9 because it's federal, and that was for something that probably wasn't fraudulent from the very beginning. So, seems like they... won't be okay.
- shapefrog 4y agoShe got 11 years for not delivering 10x to the VC's. Just imagine what you would get for fucking with peoples health.
- 650REDHAIR 4y agoMy imagination is awful, but I’m guessing somewhere around 0 years.
- w1nst0nsm1th 4y agoAsk Sacler family members...
- LatteLazy 4y agoShe got 11 years for lying about her product in order to defraud people...
- orwin 4y ago
- neonate 4y agohttps://archive.ph/MUtOq https://archive.ph/MUtOq http://web.archive.org/web/20221222025052/https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/21/technology/ftx-fraud-guilty-pleas.html http://web.archive.org/web/20221222025052/https://www.nytime...
- carabiner 4y agoRelease the tape.
- JKCalhoun 4y agoIt's hard for me to fathom being so privileged and then essentially throwing away your life. I have no idea what they were thinking.
- whatshisface 4y agoPeople are a lot like ChatGPT, in that they fill in their next action based on what is most likely according to their training given what actions came before it.
- cko 4y agoI really like this model of human behavior and I subscribe to it myself. It's how I explain why some people become pathological liars - because it worked well in the past.
- JKCalhoun 4y agoI agree. I have never held to anything special about the way I or my brain function. I appear to be pattern-matching my way through the day 99% of the time — and forgetting 99% of it as well, only noting the perceived anomalies.
- renonn 4y ago[flagged]
- 2-718-281-828 4y agogiven some of her tweets and blog posts it seems chronic stimulant abuse is what did their thinking for them.
- awaythrow5664 4y agoFor those of you who can't hear it, this is an antisemitic dog whistle, the implication being that because SBF is Jewish and FTX was a financial institution, that were taking orders from a secret cabal performing rituals involving blood. This is QAnon/Blood Libel nonsense.
- Aaronstotle 4y agoWhat about the previous CEO of Alameda, Sam Trabucco? Caroline only took over recently, I haven't heard anything about his legal standing at this point.
- mlla 4y agoI was wondering about Trabucco as well. His name is nowhere to be seen, but he was leading Alameda together with Caroline up until last summer. If SBF is also going for plea bargain, will various government institutions ask from him to get some dirt on Tether (and on Binance)? Might be that they are more interested in campaign financing.
- greenyoda 4y ago> he was leading Alameda together with Caroline up until last summer In the last paragraph on page 3 of the plea letter, we see that most of the counts cover the period from 2019-2022 (2020 for the money laundering). Thus, the crimes that Ellison is pleading guilty to were going on while Trabucco was the co-CEO. According to Wikipedia, he "officially became the co-CEO in October 2021", and resigned in August 2022.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Trabucco https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Trabucco
- dragonwriter 4y ago> but he was leading Alameda together with Caroline up until last summer. According to the SEC civil lawsuit against SBF, SBF was running Alameda the whole time, including when Ellison and Trabucco were nominally the co-CEOs. The CFTC lawsuit against SBF, FTX, Aand Alameda asserts the same, and that SBFs resignation as CEO of Alameda was done to create the false image of strong separation between Alameda and FTX. Ellison apparently had a real role in the fraud, but I don’t know that it’s clear that Trabucco was anything other than a face set up as a distraction, in terms of substantive role.
- danielfoster 4y agoAn important component of accepting a plea bargain is telling the truth. I was also wondering if SBF might be used as a witness for other cases. I think his reliability is a major concern for any testimony.
- meanmrmustard92 4y agoCaroline's dad is an MIT econ prof and wrote a series of books titled Hard Math for X. New installment should surely be Hard Math for Crypto Fraud and Jail Evasion.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- joe_the_user 4y agoShouldn't be that hard, Michael Milken is doing fine. "He is known for his role in the development of the market for high-yield bonds ("junk bonds"), and his conviction and sentence following a guilty plea on felony charges for violating U.S. securities laws... With a net worth of $6 billion as of 2022, he is ranked by Forbes magazine as the 412th richest person in the world" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Milken https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Milken
- dbuder 4y agoNone of the people involved in this can hold a candle to the force that is Michael Milken
- crayonviking 4y ago> Caroline's dad is an MIT econ prof and wrote a series of books titled Hard Math for X He wrote them for caroline and her sister when they were in elementary school, because they excelled in math and wanted more of a challenge. I bought these books after reading about her when this first started happening a few weeks ago. No joke, those books are really tough. They are for elementary and middle schoolers, aannnndddd I can't get thru them. lol
- TuringNYC 4y agoI have a feeling she took this course: MIT 15.025 | Spring | Graduate Game Theory For Strategic Advantage
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- stinkythrowaway 4y agoCould Caroline have reported prior to collapse and earned a buttload of cash from the SEC for whistleblowing?
- greenyoda 4y agoI doubt that the SEC would pay a whistleblower who was themself involved with the crime, as the SEC alleges in their complaint against her: https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2022-234 https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2022-234
- vkou 4y agoYou can only make money from a share of the fine that gets collected, in the case of an insolvent firm, I doubt that fine and your share will be at the front of the list of creditors.
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 4y agoThere is a good chance SBF will be released on bail so he does not have to spend time in detention in NYC. The charges against him are all nonviolent crimes. The question I have is if the judge releases him from custody, "Will SBF do more interviews?" Lots of people are speculating on sentencing, some are comparing SBF to Holmes, but IMHO it's likely in this case he is going to plead guilty. Whatever comes out in a criminal trial, e.g., testimony, could be used against SBF in the civil cases brought by the SEC and CFTC. Assuming SBF will plead guilty, given the amount of the losses he has caused, which far exceed the amounts involved in Holmes' fraud, what sort of plea agreement will SBF be offered. One theory of why these charges against SBF were brought so quickly is that the US attorney is extraordinarily confident he can obtain a conviction. The "brilliant" SBF's idiotic public behaviour after the bankruptcy filing has no doubt has made the government's job much easier. This makes sense because as many readers will know, generally federal prosecutors do not like to lose and they will not gamble. Their egos and reputations may be at stake. They want slam dunks. For Damian Williams this is probably a slam dunk. Assuming he does not make any significant mistakes.
- yellow_lead 4y ago>The question I have is if the judge releases him from custody, "Will SBF do more interviews?" That's a funny question to consider. I wonder if this has sufficiently shattered his world-view such that he'll no longer do interviews.
- dragonwriter 4y ago> Lots of people are speculating on sentencing, some are comparing SBF to Holmes, but IMHO it's likely in this case he is going to plead guilty. Whatever comes out in a criminal trial could be used against SBF in the civil cases brought by the SEC and CFTC. This includes the convictions and statement of the offense that comes with a guilty plea, though, too.
- herendin2 4y agoif the judge releases him from custody, "Will SBF do more interviews?" Because he has such a great tendency to shoot himself in the foot in the legal sense, it sounds as if encouraging the judge to grant his release so he can carry on incriminating himself in interviews would be a smart strategy from the prosecutor's POV Maybe his own lawyer will be arguing against release
- xxr 4y agoThey all could have just been basic rich people pulling $600k[0] a year at Jane Street, but they just couldn’t get enough. [0]This number is completely made up and betrays my total lack of knowledge about what finance people make.
- pclmulqdq 4y agoEarly career it's less than that unless you have done something exceptional for them and threatened to leave.
- fnands 4y agoAs far as I understand they were making pretty good bank with Alameda doing crypto arbitrage. Could probably have been set for life just doing that. Human psychology is funny. Not content with being stinking rich in their 20's, they embarked on a massive fraud to get even richer. To give them the benefit of the doubt, I'm not sure they set out to commit fraud, just make money off suckers, but when the temptation presented itself they couldn't resist it seems.
- cellis 4y agoTheir margins got squeezed quickly. Like the trader that makes a million one year and can’t repeat the random walk the next and starts pitching his “trading course” on YouTube instead of continuing to lose money, same for this but replace “trading course” with a much more sophisticated level of how to fleece retail. And they believed in themselves. I still think they don’t consider what they did “fraud”. They’re just now cooperative because the legal needle has pierced their Bahamas and SV bubble.
- michaelcampbell 4y ago> doing crypto arbitrage. They were, but arbitrage can only last so long and theirs ran out. They were convinced of their own genius I think which is what got them on the FTX train.
- fnands 4y ago
- SilverBirch 4y agoThe thing that makes me very uneasy about this is... it's crypto. If you let people walk away with anything less than decades in prison you're setting a bad precedent. Why? Because the entire design of crypto is to allow you to squirrel money away, honestly what are the chances that these guys have some cold wallet lying around with a few million dollars in bitcoin? That's what I'd do if I was running this scam.
- DebtDeflation 4y agoYou're assuming that FTX is the extent of the DOJ and SEC investigations. SBF is going to be offered a deal - "Spend the rest of your life in prison or give us CZ/Binance and all the other big players and be out in 10". Remember, in addition to their chat group labeled "Wirefraud" they also had another one called "Exchange coordination" that the heads of other exchanges participated in. In addition to SBF, CZ (Binance), Powell (Kraken), Ardoino (Tether), and Sun (Tron) were participants.
- zarzavat 4y agoNot saying that nefarious things weren't happening, but keeping lines of communication open between exchanges is reasonable and is not per se evidence of wrongdoing. For example, if someone steals a bunch of coins from exchange A then you would want exchanges B and C to be able to made aware of that ASAP so that they can stop the movement of those coins.
- 4y ago
- benjaminwootton 4y agoHaving scanned the documents, I can imagine a dynamic where Ellison was the CEO, but SBF was really pulling the strings. I bet many companies are like that, where investors or a chairman are the real decision maker and the CEO is managing downwards only. Especially when you have a complex corporate setup where you are told to request funds and resources from a parent org etc. If I am in a C-level position again I would definetly avoid a situation where I was C-level in name only, if only to avoid the legal risk.
- Gareth321 4y ago> If I am in a C-level position again I would definetly avoid a situation where I was C-level in name only if only to avoid the legal risk. How much are they paying, exactly?
- ls15 4y agoThat restaurant at the corner that never has guests, but doesn't go bankrupt, is probably the same.
- LatteLazy 4y agoI get where you are coming from, but if she was CEO, she was responsible for her actions (and inactions) in that position. Letting some people off is not just and the various narratives these people are all spinning to avoid responsibility for their actions are ALL equally BS.
- 4y ago
- DebtDeflation 4y agoThe bigger story is that in their complaint, the SEC is declaring FTT to be an investment contract and therefore a "security". https://finance.yahoo.com/news/sec-calls-ftt-exchange-token-031953598.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/sec-calls-ftt-exchange-token-... Since all exchange native tokens more or less work the same way, that would mean they are all securities. That would include BNB. If this holds, the crypto exchange game is over.
- bm3719 4y agoThis has been the SEC's stance since at least 2020 when they went after Ripple (XRP) for selling "unregistered securities" in their ICO. It's the SEC's position that you can issue tokens, but they have to be "registered," specifically with them. https://www.sec.gov/ICO https://www.sec.gov/ICO
- resoluteteeth 4y agoWasn't this already the SEC's position?
- DebtDeflation 4y agoThe original position was that cryptocurrencies were commodities not securities, and that is what allowed all the bullshit to flourish. In July of 2017 the SEC issued a ruling that any coin issued via ICO could be considered a security on a case by case basis. Yesterday is the first time I've seen the SEC make the argument that exchange native tokens are investment contracts and therefore securities.
- ls15 4y agoExchange tokens are amongst the more obvious securities IMO. I think they tick all marks of the Howey Test: - An investment of money (Send money/BTC, get token) - In a common enterprise (the exchange) - With the expectation of profit (Token burns) - To be derived from the efforts of others (Exchange pays with profits for token burns) https://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/howey-test.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/howey-test.asp
- pseingatl 4y agoShe has to hope that Sam goes to trial. If he does, her testimony against him earns her that 5k1.1. motion to reduce sentence. If he doesn't, the government may or may not file the motion. And if there's no 5k, there's no Rule 35. Despite the noise, it doesn't look like either Carol or SBF profited much from this scheme. At the end of the day, the "luxurious lifestyle" looks pretty spartan. Bernie funded years of living large off of his victims; not the case here. The clawbacks and value of the FTX positions long term will be interesting.