26 ms·

I feel this HN account had been just waiting for this article. The points the article makes about torsional and lateral tension helped me understand better why

I feel this HN account had been just waiting for this article. The points the article makes about torsional and lateral tension helped me understand better why I prefer steel over carbon. I've always described it as "feeling more in-sync" with the bike. For example, the subtle instinctive biomechanical action of putting more weight down on the outside pedal to re-align the wheels when you start to understeer just feels great, like you're "one" with the bicycle.

giuliomagnifico 4y ago
Yes but are dispersing power. It’s the same (endless) story as the vinyl VS digital… you can “feel” better the vinyl but the digital is technically better.
- rhn_mk1 4y ago
  Where is the power dispersed? Typically bike frames are made of elastic materials which return the power that was injected through the deformation. If the power isn't returned, then the deformation was plastic and you have a bent frame, so that isn't really an option.
  - giuliomagnifico 4y ago
    Yes but it returns the power when your pedal is at the “death point” and you aren’t making power on the frame, then the power is dispersed through the frame flex when not needed. The frame should be soft vertically on the seat tube.
    - rhn_mk1 4y ago
      I'm not sure if I see it. If you're not putting a force on the frame, then the frame is not twisted, and it doesn't return anything. You have to push in order to recuperate the energy. If you remove the force so fast that the frame doesn't have the time to return the energy back to you, then it will disperse the energy by ringing. But i don't think it's realistic unless you drive your pedals with hammer strikes.
      - zardo 4y ago
        You also have the possibility of transferring that energy into tire deformation and heating.
    - zwieback 4y ago
      I would think that most of the energy goes in between 12 and 3 o'clock and then flexes out from 3 to 6. So if the flex pushes back against your leg a good part of the energy should go back on the road.
- ehnto 4y ago
  Depends on your goals though I think. Since ride quality and feel is a factor, it's not objectively true that carbon is better than steel. Just that it has better stiffness. Do you want better stiffness? Well it depends entirely on what you are doing and what you want to experience. For example, in a touring bike, you might prefer steels robustness and softer feel for long hauls. Some people might prefer carbon for it's lightness. It's all down to choice, neither is objectively better.
  - giuliomagnifico 4y ago
    Yeah absolutely correct but the article was talking about professional cycling. I’m also a cyclist (not touring oriented) and the stuff a bike is, the more I like it. A racing bike should flex vertically but not horizontally.
- blacksmith_tb 4y ago
  I tend to agree - unless you had the ability to compare the ride of identical frames made of different materials - same angles, same components and tires, I suspect a lot of the 'feel' of the ride comes from having been told steel is more forgiving, aluminum is harsh, etc. We have a lot of very subtle control over the frame, angles, wall thicknesses, and I would expect a skilled builder to be able to produce the desired performance for whatever frame material. That said, there do seem to be some obvious poor choices, I am not going touring on an all-carbon frame that could fail catastrophically in the middle of nowhere, no matter how comfy.
ehnto 4y ago
Have you ridden aluminium bikes in a way that lets you compare? I have a steel and an aluminum frame, but they have different applications so I can't compare. I do feel more harshness in the bars on the ALU frames, like sharper peaks in vibrations.
- baggsie 4y ago
  A good alu frame is more comfortable than a cheap steel or carbon frame IME. I think a lot of the perceived differences comes down to tyres rather than frame material - steel bikes are much more likely to have >35mm tyres than alu with 25 - 28mm.
  - SyzygistSix 4y ago
    And a really good steel frame (or titanium that has been butted to ride like steel) is even more enjoyable still, at least for a lot of folks. A hand built steel frame is luxurious and will ride like a dream.
    - zardo 4y ago
      > A hand built steel frame is luxurious and will ride like a dream. Surely that depends on the hands.
    - deebosong 4y ago
      I've tried the following: • steel, straight-gauge Hi-Ten from the mid 90's • steel, double-butted, Columbus SL from the late 70's/ early 80's • steel, double-butted, Tange 1 from the late 80's • steel, not sure but it was a Kona Rova from 2020 I believe • aluminum, Cannondale R300 from the mid 90's • aluminum, Specialized SmartWeld DSW from 2016 • aluminum, Cannondale Synapse from the late 2010's I personally love Columbus SL. I believe it was 0.1 mm thicker all around than even the Tange 1 bike in numbers (but I'm not sure if both triangles were double-butted or only the main one). But it feels springier, even with the same wheels & tires & components swapped between the two frames. I didn't mind the Cannondale Synapse. It subjectively felt better than the Smartweld aluminum, but the difference could have been in the wider tires on the Synapse (versus the Spesh). The Kona Rove... for some reason was a bit of a letdown. People seem to love that bike, though. And Hi-Ten is as stiff and clunky as everyone says. Pure beater material right there. But the Cannondale R300's mid 90's aluminum was even harsher and wrist-numbing. It'll rattle you to your core! All of this is anecdotal & subjective, though. I've learned to compensate the added road-noise from the Specialized aluminum by hovering off my saddle and bending my elbows a bit while loosening my grip. But man, I love that racing steel bike. It makes me wanna try Tange Prestige of the road variety, and Ti as well. Only other thing I'm super curious about is CAAD 12 Aluminum, but on forums I've read that CAAD 12's are slightly harsher than SuperSix Evo's (all carbon). ––– Edited to include some other bikes & models
zwieback 4y ago
Yes, sir, and you had to wait 10 years for it! I've only had steel frames myself but when I try out non-steel frames I can't say I dislike them, just that they feel strange. I'm still trying to understand the talk about over/understeer and how the bottom bracket is involved. Are you saying you put down more weight on the outside pedal on each rotation of the crank as you're going through a turn? Also, isn't there some wasted energy going into flexing the frame that should go into the road?
- PascLeRasc 4y ago
  There is some wasted energy from flexing during really hard pedaling, but off-road this can actually make you more efficient when the frame keeps the rear wheel attached to uneven ground.
zwkrt 4y ago
In bike messenger circles there is a phrase "steel is real". The idea being that when you inevitably eat shit going around a corner you might dent your frame, but the chances that a steel frame will crack or shatter is basically zero. And more importantly dings and scratches don't cause the structural integrity to degrade like happens with aluminum or carbon fiber. Your steel fork is bent? Hit it with a hammer until it's true again!
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  Also applies to fixing steel wheels. Can slam them against the ground, hammer them, and step on them to bend them back into shape without losing as much strength as one would on aluminum.
  - joe_the_user 4y ago
    Aside from being absurdly heavy, steel wheels are dangerous since they become extremely slippery to brake shoes in rain or wet conditions. I don't think steel rims are common any more - or at least they shouldn't be unless you use disk brakes or something.
    - whalesalad 4y ago
      I'm guessing this person might be referring to steel car/truck wheels? A lot of serious crawlers/off-roaders prefer steel wheels because 1. they are cheap and easy to fix/replace, 2. they are easy to weld on beadlocks, and 3. you can definitely repair them out on the trail with a hammer.
    - Scoundreller 4y ago
      Not common in new builds, but because of their durability and repairability, they’re still around.
- soulofmischief 4y ago
  Oh, I wish. Unfortunately a nasty accident bent my steel tube beyond repair due to structural integrity concerns, and I still have yet to find a bike I've felt so at one with... This one was an early 80's Schwinn before the Chicago plant shut down and it's hard to find the exact kind I like.
jackmott 4y ago

giuliomagnifico 4y ago

Yes but are dispersing power. It’s the same (endless) story as the vinyl VS digital… you can “feel” better the vinyl but the digital is technically better.

rhn_mk1 4y ago
Where is the power dispersed? Typically bike frames are made of elastic materials which return the power that was injected through the deformation. If the power isn't returned, then the deformation was plastic and you have a bent frame, so that isn't really an option.
- giuliomagnifico 4y ago
  Yes but it returns the power when your pedal is at the “death point” and you aren’t making power on the frame, then the power is dispersed through the frame flex when not needed. The frame should be soft vertically on the seat tube.
  - rhn_mk1 4y ago
    I'm not sure if I see it. If you're not putting a force on the frame, then the frame is not twisted, and it doesn't return anything. You have to push in order to recuperate the energy. If you remove the force so fast that the frame doesn't have the time to return the energy back to you, then it will disperse the energy by ringing. But i don't think it's realistic unless you drive your pedals with hammer strikes.
    - zardo 4y ago
      You also have the possibility of transferring that energy into tire deformation and heating.
  - zwieback 4y ago
    I would think that most of the energy goes in between 12 and 3 o'clock and then flexes out from 3 to 6. So if the flex pushes back against your leg a good part of the energy should go back on the road.
ehnto 4y ago
Depends on your goals though I think. Since ride quality and feel is a factor, it's not objectively true that carbon is better than steel. Just that it has better stiffness. Do you want better stiffness? Well it depends entirely on what you are doing and what you want to experience. For example, in a touring bike, you might prefer steels robustness and softer feel for long hauls. Some people might prefer carbon for it's lightness. It's all down to choice, neither is objectively better.
- giuliomagnifico 4y ago
  Yeah absolutely correct but the article was talking about professional cycling. I’m also a cyclist (not touring oriented) and the stuff a bike is, the more I like it. A racing bike should flex vertically but not horizontally.
blacksmith_tb 4y ago
I tend to agree - unless you had the ability to compare the ride of identical frames made of different materials - same angles, same components and tires, I suspect a lot of the 'feel' of the ride comes from having been told steel is more forgiving, aluminum is harsh, etc. We have a lot of very subtle control over the frame, angles, wall thicknesses, and I would expect a skilled builder to be able to produce the desired performance for whatever frame material. That said, there do seem to be some obvious poor choices, I am not going touring on an all-carbon frame that could fail catastrophically in the middle of nowhere, no matter how comfy.

ehnto 4y ago

Have you ridden aluminium bikes in a way that lets you compare? I have a steel and an aluminum frame, but they have different applications so I can't compare. I do feel more harshness in the bars on the ALU frames, like sharper peaks in vibrations.

baggsie 4y ago
A good alu frame is more comfortable than a cheap steel or carbon frame IME. I think a lot of the perceived differences comes down to tyres rather than frame material - steel bikes are much more likely to have >35mm tyres than alu with 25 - 28mm.
- SyzygistSix 4y ago
  And a really good steel frame (or titanium that has been butted to ride like steel) is even more enjoyable still, at least for a lot of folks. A hand built steel frame is luxurious and will ride like a dream.
  - zardo 4y ago
    > A hand built steel frame is luxurious and will ride like a dream. Surely that depends on the hands.
  - deebosong 4y ago
    I've tried the following: • steel, straight-gauge Hi-Ten from the mid 90's • steel, double-butted, Columbus SL from the late 70's/ early 80's • steel, double-butted, Tange 1 from the late 80's • steel, not sure but it was a Kona Rova from 2020 I believe • aluminum, Cannondale R300 from the mid 90's • aluminum, Specialized SmartWeld DSW from 2016 • aluminum, Cannondale Synapse from the late 2010's I personally love Columbus SL. I believe it was 0.1 mm thicker all around than even the Tange 1 bike in numbers (but I'm not sure if both triangles were double-butted or only the main one). But it feels springier, even with the same wheels & tires & components swapped between the two frames. I didn't mind the Cannondale Synapse. It subjectively felt better than the Smartweld aluminum, but the difference could have been in the wider tires on the Synapse (versus the Spesh). The Kona Rove... for some reason was a bit of a letdown. People seem to love that bike, though. And Hi-Ten is as stiff and clunky as everyone says. Pure beater material right there. But the Cannondale R300's mid 90's aluminum was even harsher and wrist-numbing. It'll rattle you to your core! All of this is anecdotal & subjective, though. I've learned to compensate the added road-noise from the Specialized aluminum by hovering off my saddle and bending my elbows a bit while loosening my grip. But man, I love that racing steel bike. It makes me wanna try Tange Prestige of the road variety, and Ti as well. Only other thing I'm super curious about is CAAD 12 Aluminum, but on forums I've read that CAAD 12's are slightly harsher than SuperSix Evo's (all carbon). ––– Edited to include some other bikes & models

zwieback 4y ago

Yes, sir, and you had to wait 10 years for it! I've only had steel frames myself but when I try out non-steel frames I can't say I dislike them, just that they feel strange. I'm still trying to understand the talk about over/understeer and how the bottom bracket is involved. Are you saying you put down more weight on the outside pedal on each rotation of the crank as you're going through a turn? Also, isn't there some wasted energy going into flexing the frame that should go into the road?

PascLeRasc 4y ago
There is some wasted energy from flexing during really hard pedaling, but off-road this can actually make you more efficient when the frame keeps the rear wheel attached to uneven ground.

zwkrt 4y ago

In bike messenger circles there is a phrase "steel is real". The idea being that when you inevitably eat shit going around a corner you might dent your frame, but the chances that a steel frame will crack or shatter is basically zero. And more importantly dings and scratches don't cause the structural integrity to degrade like happens with aluminum or carbon fiber. Your steel fork is bent? Hit it with a hammer until it's true again!

Scoundreller 4y ago
Also applies to fixing steel wheels. Can slam them against the ground, hammer them, and step on them to bend them back into shape without losing as much strength as one would on aluminum.
- joe_the_user 4y ago
  Aside from being absurdly heavy, steel wheels are dangerous since they become extremely slippery to brake shoes in rain or wet conditions. I don't think steel rims are common any more - or at least they shouldn't be unless you use disk brakes or something.
  - whalesalad 4y ago
    I'm guessing this person might be referring to steel car/truck wheels? A lot of serious crawlers/off-roaders prefer steel wheels because 1. they are cheap and easy to fix/replace, 2. they are easy to weld on beadlocks, and 3. you can definitely repair them out on the trail with a hammer.
  - Scoundreller 4y ago
    Not common in new builds, but because of their durability and repairability, they’re still around.
soulofmischief 4y ago
Oh, I wish. Unfortunately a nasty accident bent my steel tube beyond repair due to structural integrity concerns, and I still have yet to find a bike I've felt so at one with... This one was an early 80's Schwinn before the Chicago plant shut down and it's hard to find the exact kind I like.

jackmott 4y ago