14 ms·

Apple Music deletes your original songs and replaces them with DRM'd versions

379 points by josephcsible 4y ago

mikece 4y ago
In the case cited in the Reddit link, having files you legitimately own DRMed, replaced, or deleted seems like a pretty clear illegal act. I think the argument could be made that Apple could be charged with something worse than ransomware (since that merely encrypts your files and doesn't change, delete, or prevent them from being used as before once they are unencrypted).
- nopenopenopeno 4y ago
- nonrandomstring 4y ago
  Didn't see your comment before making mine - but yes - I think it is indistinguishable from a ransomware attack in every way except for who is doing it and the fact that unlike cybercriminals to whom you can pay bitcoin to restore your files, Apple will almost certainly refuse and prosecute you for trying to restore your data. So yes, worse than a ransomware attack. I simply cannot understand how big tech companies get away with their behaviour.
- dagmx 4y ago
  In this case, the user is mistaken. It didn’t replace their local files. They synced the files to a different machine, and the service as stated, gives you what it considers de-duplicated files. It’s not a music backup service, and it’s very clear about that. It’s an “upload your own stuff, and we’ll only host what’s not already in our library” Granted it does overly aggressively match songs sometimes, but it still doesn’t delete your content.
antihero 4y ago
I’ve never seen this happen but I only ever drag over stuff that isn’t on Apple Music, so perhaps that is why?
docdeek 4y ago
In the Reddit thread there is a comment with a possible solution: https://old.reddit.com/r/YouShouldKnow/comments/zl8ko3/ysk_apple_music_deletes_your_original_songs_and/j05ojxr/ https://old.reddit.com/r/YouShouldKnow/comments/zl8ko3/ysk_a...
totetsu 4y ago
Wasnt it always the case that Itunes messed with peoples files and replaced metainfo etc?
galad87 4y ago
Apple Music includes the old iTunes Match features, so it matches your local library with the Apple Music library if you allow it to do so, and uploads only the songs it can't match. This process is not perfect so some songs might be matched to a different version. Anyway, even if I download a matches song it's DRM free on my Mac, and Apple Music won't automatically delete your local files. But I guess bugs happens, the app is quite buggy in general. Edit: it seems it download a version with DRM if you set it to download in Lossless format, but my songs weren't originally lossless, and if I set it to download the AAC version the file is DRM free.
- alphabettsy 4y ago
  This is exactly my experience as well. Not an issue imo, you have to preserve the original files still.
  - phkahler 4y ago
    >> Not an issue imo That's an odd stance IMO. Should any service or software ever change a user's files without letting them know? I think not, regardless of what ever technobabble explains why it happens
    - ezfe 4y ago
      Apple Music doesn't change the file on the device it was imported
    - alphabettsy 4y ago
      They don’t change your files. iTunes / Apple Music match your with their catalog and basically flip a flag that says this song is in your library. If a song is in your library you can download the file on other devices, same as if you purchased the song from them. If I download the song from iTunes via Match it’s a DRM-ed version because they don’t upload files that match the music catalog so there’s no original to download.
      - 4y ago
bni 4y ago
I have curated local music library in Music app, with many rare recordings and versions that does no exist in streaming anywhere. I also subscribe to Apple Music. This works fine. The only gripe I have is I can't make playlists in Apple Music when its setup like this. I don't care much though because I don't use streaming like that. If files are important to you, keep a backup, outside of cloud, or in another vendors cloud.
- nixpulvis 4y ago
  Fine-ish. Sometimes it gets really really confused.
  - YurgenJurgensen 4y ago
    Yeah, I gave up on iTunes very recently and moved to owntone because iTunes does not play nice with network shares. If the share isn’t available when you launch the app it reverts to storing files locally without telling you. It also can’t really handle artists with arbitrary Unicode in their names, and forgets where the file is under conditions that I could never quite determine. It’s never deleted a file though, not once in 15 years. A poorly-designed SSD whose rubberised coating kept it too toasty did kill a lot of my music, but that’s what backup strategies are for.
- rsync 4y ago
  "If files are important to you, keep a backup, outside of cloud, or in another vendors cloud." Agreed. Broadly speaking, I don't think of my music collection as critical data ... and yet, when I examine the time, care and energy I have expended ripping CDs, naming and cataloging these files they are probably the single largest data input job I have ever taken part in. So with that in mind I do, indeed, treat it as critical data and have it properly backed up. "If files are important to you ..." There is this UI element in itunes / apple music where you can choose what to arrange music by: https://ipodiphoneitunestutorials.com/iTunesTutorials/i/img80.jpg https://ipodiphoneitunestutorials.com/iTunesTutorials/i/img8... ... and note that "filename" is not in that huge, comprehensive list. That tells you everything you need to know.
323 4y ago
If you don't pay for the product you are the product. Except if you pay for the product, then you are the product too.
- function_seven 4y ago
  But if I pay for 2 products (Match and Music) then… nope, I’m still the product :/
- kube-system 4y ago
  If you pay for a service you get a service.
- mixmastamyk 4y ago
  BigTech 2010+ in a nutshell.
extr0pian 4y ago
I had my entire music collection stored on Google Play Music for a time, at one point being my only backup. When I tried to export my music collection, I discovered that not only were the file names and folder structures completely messed up, but I would sometimes get lower bitrate version of the songs or songs with "clean" lyrics - which I know for a fact wasn't what I had originally uploaded. I refuse to use music streaming services these days - sometimes resorting to less than legal means, but for the most part I purchase drm free music from Bandcamp.
- pimeys 4y ago
  I use Backblaze B2 for my music backups. It costs a bit to restore the files from there, but just storing them is cheap enough for me to not care.
  - blahyawnblah 4y ago
    When did they start charging for restoration? Are you doing something other than just downloading it?
    - DistractionRect 4y ago
      Since always. For clarity, they are using the commercial offering from backblaze, not backblaze's personal/home use product. B2 is similar to s3, and B2 charges for api calls + egress. Ingress is free, and they have a generous free daily api calling limit that covers some of the core api
    - josephcsible 4y ago
      It looks like downloading is free with their personal backup service, but is $0.01/GB with their B2 cloud storage service.
    - mikequinlan 4y ago
      Backblaze B2 is different than Backblaze Backup.
  - 4y ago
iluvcommunism 4y ago
I just checked and I don’t see any of my files replaced. I store them in lossless ALAC. iTunes Match has weird behavior sometimes but I have a hard time believing they would delete and replace my original files. Stuff you download from the store should be stored in a cache folder anyway.
endigma 4y ago
Not that it excuses any of this on Apple's part, but holy shit do people with like a ton of music not realize backups are important? Like seriously buy a NAS of any caliber from anywhere or an external HDD or use dropbox but don't put all your eggs in one basket people. I get that "shit happens" and all, but I don't understand how backups are not more prominently known in tech culture as mandatory for data you care about.
- pcurve 4y ago
  I agree... most people's music collection should fit fine on a 256GB thumbdrive, which costs less than $25 nowadays.
  - rhn_mk1 4y ago
    Don't rely on flash memory too much for long-term backup, flash technology is not particularly good at retaining bits without refreshing.
  - naravara 4y ago
    The initial back-up isn't the problem. It's keeping it current over time as you add new music. Then you need to keep track of which songs are on which drive and also access your backups often enough that some of the routine error checking happens to mitigate bit rot. Especially a problem with flash storage since it really isn't designed for long-term storage without being plugged in.
- rolph 4y ago
  this problem is result of training the market to meet the supply
- verytrivial 4y ago
  The media is dirt cheap, but doing the backup is fraught. I think only Time Machine actually "solved" that usability problem and frankly kept me on Apple products longer than I would otherwise have endured. I still don't know the right way to backup a Windows 10 machine that doesn't involve hours of research, testing, tradeoffs and probably $$$.
ur-whale 4y ago
- robertoandred 4y ago
  You know Apple Music doesn't actually delete your stuff, right?
  - JadeNB 4y ago
    > You know Apple Music doesn't actually delete your stuff, right? I don't use Apple Music so can't comment, but the post explicitly says that it does. Perhaps you could explain what part of the post is wrong, or what the poster has misunderstood?
    - tpush 4y ago
      I neither deletes nor changes you files; the reddit post is simply based on a misunderstanding of how iTunes Match works (You import a file on one device, then all other devices receive the matched version.) This whole thread is terrible and should be deleted, IMO.
- everyone 4y ago
  HN users love apple though. Something which will never cease to mystify me. You would think relatively tech savvy people, programmers and computer super-users would utterly detest apple with a burning passion.
  - alphabettsy 4y ago
    Why should I detest things that usually serve their intended purpose really well? I actually like macOS on my MacBook Pro, I don’t have to tinker with it to keep it working like my Linux desktop. I’ve been frustrated with iOS but I originally switched because I was tired of my phone being randomly off or otherwise having some unexpected behavior causing it to be unreliable. I can understand why other people prefer Windows, Linux or Android. How can it be mystifying why some might prefer macOS or iOS?
null_object 4y ago
Wow this currently has 111 points and is sailing to the top of HN... based on a user misunderstanding... Edit: What's more, the person pointing to the solution isn't even the top-voted comment on this thread. Just everyone repeating their usual anti-Apple fixations.
- arnaudsm 4y ago
  Are Dark Patterns the fault of the user or the company ?
  - nonrandomstring 4y ago
    The responsibility for a defective product that allows harm to be done to it's user through misoperation and lack of safety features lies with the manufacturer. Supplying the equivalent of a chainsaw without a blade guard, and then blaming the victims is not okay.
  - null_object 4y ago
    > Are Dark Patterns the fault of the user or the company But you - and supposedly the other people downvoting me - don’t seem to realize that absolutely nothing has happened to the user’s original files. They simply misunderstood how to sync files to their other devices.
    - Hizonner 4y ago
      The user was led to expect that their data would be in Apple Music. At that point, it would be completely reasonable for them to delete all copies of the files themselves in the understanding that Apple Music would actually absorb and retain the content it claimed to have imported.
      - salawat 4y ago
        Ah, but the User would be wrong, because the MPAA and RIAA outsource copyright enforcement to everyone else. So business-wise, you have to assume that anything you "try to import" will be looked at as tainted, lest it put the company on the pedestal of "accomplice to copyright infringement". You must consider every service provider a hostile entity. No exceptions.
nonrandomstring 4y ago
It's interesting that the mechanism, process and outcome of what Apple is doing is in every way identical with a ransomware attack. At least the overtly criminal gangs let you know and offer to restore your original files for some bitcoin payment.
knaik94 4y ago
I gave up on iTunes after realizing how aggressively and poorly it matches your library against its catalog. I remember times when I intentionally deleted a "match" and when the scan was triggered again it would erase my copy again. I thought there was something I was doing incorrectly since I couldn't find much online about it. Google Play Music was the last true third party hosted solution, in my opinion. YouTube Music allows you to upload files but segregates your uploads from the YouTube Library for recommendations and smart playlists. I haven't found a great "smart recommendation" service for self hosted files.
everyone 4y ago
devmor 4y ago
The reddit thread title is misleading. Apple didn't "replace" the OPs files, the OP downloaded their music library to a new device, using Apple Music's sync feature. This is a much less egregious issue than replacing files in situ.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
meindnoch 4y ago
Ugh… Never let iTunes have write access to your music! And always have CRC checksums to notice if something messes with your files.
swayvil 4y ago
This is why I choose to shamelessly disregard all intellectual property rights. You can't trust those guys an inch.
protoster 4y ago
Is Apple Music the same thing as iTunes? I use it on windows to put music on my iPhone.
- ezfe 4y ago
  Apple Music is a service that you can use within iTunes & Music app (on iOS and macOS)
LeoPanthera 4y ago
I don't think this is actually true. I have a bunch of obscure music in my library that isn't "matched", and while it is transcoded to AAC, it doesn't have DRM in it and can be downloaded and played on a second Mac in VLC or IINA.
ezfe 4y ago
Apple Music does NOT delete local files on Mac/Windows. It syncs them to other devices DRMed, but the original file doesn't get deleted.
selsta 4y ago
The linked post is incorrect, Apple Music doesn't touch or replace any local files. iTunes Match has also been DRM-free since launch.
smcl 4y ago
Other problems include: - deleting songs which were on my computer, but which didn't exist in apple's catalogue waaaay back when I originally signed up. That's long gone, but it still bothered me. - letting me add and listen to albums for months/years, then suddenly marking one or more songs in that album as "not available" (Life Aquatic soundtrack has this, for me) - relisting albums somehow, sometimes while leaving a single track hanging around - moving some songs around, for example "Gun" by Chvrches disappeared from the album it was on (The Bones of What You Believe) but I discovered it has appeared under an album I never added - "Virgin Records: 40 years of Disruptions" - Various Artists. Looking under "Various Artists" is a way to find weird thigns like this - editing the artist in some albums, so while I had a handful under "Prince" they got switched around at one point so they're now by "Prince", "Prince & the N.P.G." and "Prince & The Revolution" Another fun one that annoyed me, Shazam decided of its own accord to add everything I'd ever Shazam'd into my library (I hadn't used it in months at that point, so it's not something I did). Looking back on my old setup (folders with artists/albums/playlists, and xmms) with nostalgia :-/ I don't know how I could build that back up or do so in a way that I could listen to it on the go without having to carry an MP3 player.
- musicale 4y ago
  > do so in a way that I could listen to it on the go without having to carry an MP3 player Unfortunately (as OP noted) syncing through Apple Music streaming means that you get the Apple Music interpretation of your library rather than your actual library. A (mostly vastly) superior system for users would be if they gave you a terabyte of cloud storage for free and allowed you to upload and stream your actual music library. Didn't Google's cloud music player used to work this way? The main user down side is that uploading your library for the first time takes forever. And from the service provider perspective it wastes a lot of storage and is costly. Another scheme that I think was sued out of existence matched a CD locally and then gave you access to the streamed version of the same CD. This is sort of what Apple Music/iTunes match is trying to do, and they've actually resolved the legal and licensing issues, except that 1) a CD-matching system is less useful in the post-CD streaming era 2) they aren't matching the bits on the original disc and are using a Shazam-like inexact match of the song instead, and 3) the licensing resolution seems (?) to use DRM for lossless songs, 15 years after Steve Jobs' anti-DRM "thoughts on Music" and DRM-free AAC music via iTunes Plus. I wish that Apple would deliver DRM-free and lossless iTunes purchases as Jobs intended.
leethomas 4y ago
I recently started using plexamp and it’s been fantastic. I only use Music.app on my machine to rip CDs to a directory on my NAS that plexamp is serving.
robomartin 4y ago
I haven’t used Apple Music (various applications and incarnations) for a very long time, going back to iPod days. One of the most annoying things was the inability to play an album as recorded. If I want to listen to Mozart’s Requiem, Bach’s Brandenburg Concerto or Pink Floyd’s The Wall, I need to be able to listen to the tracks in the order they are intended. Last I checked this was still impossible. My entire library of hundreds of purchased music CD’s is stored in Windows Media Player. I can listen to albums exactly as the artist intended. Has Apple fixed this? If not, why? I also remember that importing my CD’s into Apple-whatever was a nightmare. Among other things, the metadata that Windows gathered without effort was gone, and the concept of albums seemed to be nonexistent. So, I gave up. At some point you just can’t continue to waste time with bad software.
- johnwalkr 4y ago
  I've was going to say I've encountered this problem in the nearly 20 years I've been using itunes. But actually I remember back in the day it happening a few times with downloaded mp3s, if metadata for track was missing or if there were typos in some of the metadata (for artist for example).
ben7799 4y ago
It's funny people are still learning this, but I guess some are younger. I have hundreds of CDs I started buying about 1992 or 1993 and did a big project at one point making MP3s and early on in the iTunes/iPod era they found their way into iTunes. I started playing around with MP3 Layer 2 and then Layer 3 around 1995-1996, but at that time it was still prohibitive to try and store your whole collection as hard drives were still barely the size of one CD. I think my computer in 1995-1996 had a 250MB HDD. In 1997 I think I got a 1GB one in a desktop build. But by 2002-2003 this started to not be an issue. There have been so many shenanigans along the way (this reddit thread is just one of them) that I gave up about 9 years ago. I ended up re-scanning every CD as FLAC and storing them all outside of iTunes and then ended up getting a Fiio DAP that could play them. I don't use the Fiio all that much anymore, but I kept on buying CDs and ripping them to FLAC or buying FLACs directly. I definitely didn't buy as much music the past 10 years though. Lately I have gone back to actually playing the CDs in a dedicated CD player and even got a Turntable and now have a very small # of vinyls. Everything is off on the NAS backed up but yet it's somehow just more fun to pull the disc out and play it. It's like the entire physical media -> files -> streaming thing has been a 20 year bad trip. The loudness war didn't help either. It boggles my mind vinyl is making a comeback now, but it seems obvious it is because of the double whammy of the loudness war and the endless shenanigans by Apple and all other digital music stores/streaming platforms. And the stupid thing is there are still tons of releases that actually sound better on Vinyl despite it being an inferior format because they have never gone back and fixed a lot of the loudness issues. Some of these are crazy. The Beatles Sergeant Pepper's album was re-released a few years ago. The Vinyl copy was an improvement on the older vinyl versions. But the CD version was a degradation of the 1997 version that I've owned since the late 90s! Sometimes the streaming services somehow have worse versions than the CD.
- naravara 4y ago
  Vinyl isn't making a comeback because of mastering or fidelity issues. It's making a comeback because people like the ritual of putting a disc on a platter and having to focus on listening to it. It's a different form of engagement with the music than the endless, pre-curated stream of singles that are the default way of using streaming services.
Cypher 4y ago
oh that's nice of them to destroy your property and replace it with a restricted version.
esher 4y ago
Isn't there a decent mp3 player for macOS with iTunes like functionality to move away from music.app when you only have local files?
markus_zhang 4y ago
I just store mp3 on my phone. I absolutely hate music streaming services nowadays, but for a different reason.
babypuncher 4y ago
I like Apple products, but I learned not to trust them with my music a long time ago. Not because they do anything nefarious, but because their software likes to think it is smarter than me, and often these "smart" features are a little buggy. This might be a continuation of that trend. These days 99% of my music library is FLAC (either ripped from CDs or bought from a lossless store). For use on Apple devices, I maintain an AAC version of my library that iTunes can do whatever it wants with.
lowbloodsugar 4y ago
Worth mentioning that Roon can now stream to your phone from your house.
justinator 4y ago
brndiinoo "Not to be lost in the shuffle of comments, this users seems useful: If you turn off Sync Library in the Apple Music settings then plug into iTunes and sync there again then all that data will come back. Sync library is basically asking them to do exactly what you described so it is more available across all devices without having to use iTunes If you end your subscription then it does delete that data that was being streamed like created playlists which is main complaint of missing music They don't revoke your rights to those songs or make you buy them again. You just need to sync it to iTunes again. Everyone gets confused on that process Source: used to work for Apple Support"
justinator 4y ago
Just to clarify this is, "Apple Music" the service, not "Apple Music" the gutted out app that replaced iTunes, right?
falsenapkin 4y ago
My favorite Apple Music oddity: I imported an album for which I have the MP3s from Bandcamp, however on the streaming side the album is in some sort of limbo where the service is aware of it but it's not available in my country. As a result, I can't listen to the album despite possessing the files. On my phone I can't even find the album easily and if I do I get a not authorized message.
bloomingeek 4y ago
Old timer here..I learned ages ago if it's not backed up on a portable drive, then you're willing/going to lose it someday. (Of course, in the beginning I used floppies and then CD/DVDs when they became available.) Now a days I download legal MP3's or rip my purchased CDs. ALL of these files are backed up on Portable drive. Hate to say it, but there isn't a company on earth that thinks we consumers actually own anything. As for cloud storage, those who trust it haven't been screwed yet, and yes, they think whatever you store there belongs to them.
- tmpburning 4y ago
  > portable drive Also, you probably shouldn't keep the portable drive in the same building as your PC (other backup)... I like to keep one portable drive in my car that update once in a while.
- analog31 4y ago
  My family still buys CDs, as it turns out to be the most efficient way for indie musicians to make money on their recordings. The CD's get ripped onto a drive, then filed away in a box. The drive gets backed up.
- rsync 4y ago
  "... there isn't a company on earth that thinks we consumers actually own anything. As for cloud storage, those who trust it haven't been screwed yet, and yes, they think whatever you store there belongs to them." I know of at least one company - that thinks you own your own files. It's actually a cloud storage company. 21 years and not one person screwed.
d883kd8 4y ago
This is a legit cause of action against apple, they are violating CFAA and accessing your computer without permission when they delete your files
FourthProtocol 4y ago
I struggle understanding cloud-based storage on anything personally mine. I want my music where I am. Same for video, and ESPECIALLY documents. Still using Windows Media Player, too.
eointierney 4y ago
That is surely a form of theft, no? It is utterly despicable either way, and exactly the behavior I would expect from a sociopath. I understand the aesthetic appeal of the relatively well-designed products but anyone who buys Apple products is enabling a hugely powerful abuser. Just say no to rotten fruit kids!
ranprieur 4y ago
I get mp3s from Bandcamp or Soulseek, keep them in folders on my laptop, and put them on an old Sansa Clip for listening. If I make a playlist, I use Mp3tag to change all the album names to whatever the name of my playlist is.
atoav 4y ago
If it is not a file on your file system in an OS you control, it all boils down to somebody else caring enough about you and your files. And boy, do they hate you owning files.
Hoasi 4y ago
Now that's even worse than forcing Bono on you. Alway keep a back up.
- jejeyyy77 4y ago
  lol or just torrent the entire discography.
mmh0000 4y ago
Y'alls with iPhones should checkout foobar2000 (it's actually multi-platform and the best music player); but, notably, directly related to the article: The iPhone foobar2000 version allows you, through its internal FTP server, to upload media in its native format (mp3,flac and many others) directly to the app. This means no more transcoding for iTunes, and all tags/filenames are retained. It also means your phone can act as a backup of your library. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/foobar2000/id1072807669 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/foobar2000/id1072807669 https://www.foobar2000.org/ https://www.foobar2000.org/
- madphilosopher 4y ago
  foobar2000 on iOS is game-changing. Thank you so much for your recommendation! The iOS Music.app is so bad. I've suffered long enough with it.
- eliasdaler 4y ago
  I can also highly recommend Plex and Plexamp. They're fantastic - I use it for storing my music on NAS and playing it from all my devices. https://plexamp.com/ https://plexamp.com/
orloffm 4y ago
I remember even John Gruber (!) was complaining about something like this back in 2015. That matching functionality is something so brittle and suspicious that of course has to be avoided.
JohnTHaller 4y ago
iirc, the Match feature downloads a higher quality AAC version of your lower quality MP3s. If you select lossless, it downloads a DRMed version. Also, iirc, the downloads are watermarked with your user details in the tags but I'm less sure of that as I last looked at it years ago.
hellfish 4y ago
I wonder if there's a way to exploit this to get free music out of apple...
hejaodbsidndbd 4y ago
sprkwd 4y ago
Always has done. Keep your music and any music streaming service as far away from each other as you can.
brokenmachine 4y ago
People seem surprised by this. Have a cursory read of the terms and conditions - you're an Apple hostage, at their mercy. Why do people accept this? There's a million different ways around it, but none of them involve accepting Apple and their bullshit. I buy CDs and rip them to flac, or buy non-DRM encumbered files and sync my music to my own storage.
oznog 4y ago
> your original songs Meec. Not yours.

379 points by josephcsible 4y ago

In the case cited in the Reddit link, having files you legitimately own DRMed, replaced, or deleted seems like a pretty clear illegal act. I think the argument could be made that Apple could be charged with something worse than ransomware (since that merely encrypts your files and doesn't change, delete, or prevent them from being used as before once they are unencrypted).

nopenopenopeno 4y ago
nonrandomstring 4y ago
Didn't see your comment before making mine - but yes - I think it is indistinguishable from a ransomware attack in every way except for who is doing it and the fact that unlike cybercriminals to whom you can pay bitcoin to restore your files, Apple will almost certainly refuse and prosecute you for trying to restore your data. So yes, worse than a ransomware attack. I simply cannot understand how big tech companies get away with their behaviour.
dagmx 4y ago
In this case, the user is mistaken. It didn’t replace their local files. They synced the files to a different machine, and the service as stated, gives you what it considers de-duplicated files. It’s not a music backup service, and it’s very clear about that. It’s an “upload your own stuff, and we’ll only host what’s not already in our library” Granted it does overly aggressively match songs sometimes, but it still doesn’t delete your content.

antihero 4y ago

I’ve never seen this happen but I only ever drag over stuff that isn’t on Apple Music, so perhaps that is why?

docdeek 4y ago

In the Reddit thread there is a comment with a possible solution: https://old.reddit.com/r/YouShouldKnow/comments/zl8ko3/ysk_apple_music_deletes_your_original_songs_and/j05ojxr/ https://old.reddit.com/r/YouShouldKnow/comments/zl8ko3/ysk_a...

totetsu 4y ago

Wasnt it always the case that Itunes messed with peoples files and replaced metainfo etc?

galad87 4y ago

Apple Music includes the old iTunes Match features, so it matches your local library with the Apple Music library if you allow it to do so, and uploads only the songs it can't match. This process is not perfect so some songs might be matched to a different version. Anyway, even if I download a matches song it's DRM free on my Mac, and Apple Music won't automatically delete your local files. But I guess bugs happens, the app is quite buggy in general. Edit: it seems it download a version with DRM if you set it to download in Lossless format, but my songs weren't originally lossless, and if I set it to download the AAC version the file is DRM free.

alphabettsy 4y ago
This is exactly my experience as well. Not an issue imo, you have to preserve the original files still.
- phkahler 4y ago
  >> Not an issue imo That's an odd stance IMO. Should any service or software ever change a user's files without letting them know? I think not, regardless of what ever technobabble explains why it happens
  - ezfe 4y ago
    Apple Music doesn't change the file on the device it was imported
  - alphabettsy 4y ago
    They don’t change your files. iTunes / Apple Music match your with their catalog and basically flip a flag that says this song is in your library. If a song is in your library you can download the file on other devices, same as if you purchased the song from them. If I download the song from iTunes via Match it’s a DRM-ed version because they don’t upload files that match the music catalog so there’s no original to download.
    - 4y ago

bni 4y ago

I have curated local music library in Music app, with many rare recordings and versions that does no exist in streaming anywhere. I also subscribe to Apple Music. This works fine. The only gripe I have is I can't make playlists in Apple Music when its setup like this. I don't care much though because I don't use streaming like that. If files are important to you, keep a backup, outside of cloud, or in another vendors cloud.

nixpulvis 4y ago
Fine-ish. Sometimes it gets really really confused.
- YurgenJurgensen 4y ago
  Yeah, I gave up on iTunes very recently and moved to owntone because iTunes does not play nice with network shares. If the share isn’t available when you launch the app it reverts to storing files locally without telling you. It also can’t really handle artists with arbitrary Unicode in their names, and forgets where the file is under conditions that I could never quite determine. It’s never deleted a file though, not once in 15 years. A poorly-designed SSD whose rubberised coating kept it too toasty did kill a lot of my music, but that’s what backup strategies are for.
rsync 4y ago
"If files are important to you, keep a backup, outside of cloud, or in another vendors cloud." Agreed. Broadly speaking, I don't think of my music collection as critical data ... and yet, when I examine the time, care and energy I have expended ripping CDs, naming and cataloging these files they are probably the single largest data input job I have ever taken part in. So with that in mind I do, indeed, treat it as critical data and have it properly backed up. "If files are important to you ..." There is this UI element in itunes / apple music where you can choose what to arrange music by: https://ipodiphoneitunestutorials.com/iTunesTutorials/i/img80.jpg https://ipodiphoneitunestutorials.com/iTunesTutorials/i/img8... ... and note that "filename" is not in that huge, comprehensive list. That tells you everything you need to know.

323 4y ago

If you don't pay for the product you are the product. Except if you pay for the product, then you are the product too.

function_seven 4y ago
But if I pay for 2 products (Match and Music) then… nope, I’m still the product :/
kube-system 4y ago
If you pay for a service you get a service.
mixmastamyk 4y ago
BigTech 2010+ in a nutshell.

extr0pian 4y ago

I had my entire music collection stored on Google Play Music for a time, at one point being my only backup. When I tried to export my music collection, I discovered that not only were the file names and folder structures completely messed up, but I would sometimes get lower bitrate version of the songs or songs with "clean" lyrics - which I know for a fact wasn't what I had originally uploaded. I refuse to use music streaming services these days - sometimes resorting to less than legal means, but for the most part I purchase drm free music from Bandcamp.

pimeys 4y ago
I use Backblaze B2 for my music backups. It costs a bit to restore the files from there, but just storing them is cheap enough for me to not care.
- blahyawnblah 4y ago
  When did they start charging for restoration? Are you doing something other than just downloading it?
  - DistractionRect 4y ago
    Since always. For clarity, they are using the commercial offering from backblaze, not backblaze's personal/home use product. B2 is similar to s3, and B2 charges for api calls + egress. Ingress is free, and they have a generous free daily api calling limit that covers some of the core api
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    It looks like downloading is free with their personal backup service, but is $0.01/GB with their B2 cloud storage service.
  - mikequinlan 4y ago
    Backblaze B2 is different than Backblaze Backup.
- 4y ago

iluvcommunism 4y ago

I just checked and I don’t see any of my files replaced. I store them in lossless ALAC. iTunes Match has weird behavior sometimes but I have a hard time believing they would delete and replace my original files. Stuff you download from the store should be stored in a cache folder anyway.

endigma 4y ago

Not that it excuses any of this on Apple's part, but holy shit do people with like a ton of music not realize backups are important? Like seriously buy a NAS of any caliber from anywhere or an external HDD or use dropbox but don't put all your eggs in one basket people. I get that "shit happens" and all, but I don't understand how backups are not more prominently known in tech culture as mandatory for data you care about.

pcurve 4y ago
I agree... most people's music collection should fit fine on a 256GB thumbdrive, which costs less than $25 nowadays.
- rhn_mk1 4y ago
  Don't rely on flash memory too much for long-term backup, flash technology is not particularly good at retaining bits without refreshing.
- naravara 4y ago
  The initial back-up isn't the problem. It's keeping it current over time as you add new music. Then you need to keep track of which songs are on which drive and also access your backups often enough that some of the routine error checking happens to mitigate bit rot. Especially a problem with flash storage since it really isn't designed for long-term storage without being plugged in.
rolph 4y ago
this problem is result of training the market to meet the supply
verytrivial 4y ago
The media is dirt cheap, but doing the backup is fraught. I think only Time Machine actually "solved" that usability problem and frankly kept me on Apple products longer than I would otherwise have endured. I still don't know the right way to backup a Windows 10 machine that doesn't involve hours of research, testing, tradeoffs and probably $$$.

ur-whale 4y ago

robertoandred 4y ago
You know Apple Music doesn't actually delete your stuff, right?
- JadeNB 4y ago
  > You know Apple Music doesn't actually delete your stuff, right? I don't use Apple Music so can't comment, but the post explicitly says that it does. Perhaps you could explain what part of the post is wrong, or what the poster has misunderstood?
  - tpush 4y ago
    I neither deletes nor changes you files; the reddit post is simply based on a misunderstanding of how iTunes Match works (You import a file on one device, then all other devices receive the matched version.) This whole thread is terrible and should be deleted, IMO.
everyone 4y ago
HN users love apple though. Something which will never cease to mystify me. You would think relatively tech savvy people, programmers and computer super-users would utterly detest apple with a burning passion.
- alphabettsy 4y ago
  Why should I detest things that usually serve their intended purpose really well? I actually like macOS on my MacBook Pro, I don’t have to tinker with it to keep it working like my Linux desktop. I’ve been frustrated with iOS but I originally switched because I was tired of my phone being randomly off or otherwise having some unexpected behavior causing it to be unreliable. I can understand why other people prefer Windows, Linux or Android. How can it be mystifying why some might prefer macOS or iOS?

null_object 4y ago

Wow this currently has 111 points and is sailing to the top of HN... based on a user misunderstanding... Edit: What's more, the person pointing to the solution isn't even the top-voted comment on this thread. Just everyone repeating their usual anti-Apple fixations.

arnaudsm 4y ago
Are Dark Patterns the fault of the user or the company ?
- nonrandomstring 4y ago
  The responsibility for a defective product that allows harm to be done to it's user through misoperation and lack of safety features lies with the manufacturer. Supplying the equivalent of a chainsaw without a blade guard, and then blaming the victims is not okay.
- null_object 4y ago
  > Are Dark Patterns the fault of the user or the company But you - and supposedly the other people downvoting me - don’t seem to realize that absolutely nothing has happened to the user’s original files. They simply misunderstood how to sync files to their other devices.
  - Hizonner 4y ago
    The user was led to expect that their data would be in Apple Music. At that point, it would be completely reasonable for them to delete all copies of the files themselves in the understanding that Apple Music would actually absorb and retain the content it claimed to have imported.
    - salawat 4y ago
      Ah, but the User would be wrong, because the MPAA and RIAA outsource copyright enforcement to everyone else. So business-wise, you have to assume that anything you "try to import" will be looked at as tainted, lest it put the company on the pedestal of "accomplice to copyright infringement". You must consider every service provider a hostile entity. No exceptions.

nonrandomstring 4y ago

It's interesting that the mechanism, process and outcome of what Apple is doing is in every way identical with a ransomware attack. At least the overtly criminal gangs let you know and offer to restore your original files for some bitcoin payment.

knaik94 4y ago

I gave up on iTunes after realizing how aggressively and poorly it matches your library against its catalog. I remember times when I intentionally deleted a "match" and when the scan was triggered again it would erase my copy again. I thought there was something I was doing incorrectly since I couldn't find much online about it. Google Play Music was the last true third party hosted solution, in my opinion. YouTube Music allows you to upload files but segregates your uploads from the YouTube Library for recommendations and smart playlists. I haven't found a great "smart recommendation" service for self hosted files.

everyone 4y ago

devmor 4y ago

The reddit thread title is misleading. Apple didn't "replace" the OPs files, the OP downloaded their music library to a new device, using Apple Music's sync feature. This is a much less egregious issue than replacing files in situ.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

meindnoch 4y ago

Ugh… Never let iTunes have write access to your music! And always have CRC checksums to notice if something messes with your files.

swayvil 4y ago

This is why I choose to shamelessly disregard all intellectual property rights. You can't trust those guys an inch.

protoster 4y ago

Is Apple Music the same thing as iTunes? I use it on windows to put music on my iPhone.

ezfe 4y ago
Apple Music is a service that you can use within iTunes & Music app (on iOS and macOS)

LeoPanthera 4y ago

I don't think this is actually true. I have a bunch of obscure music in my library that isn't "matched", and while it is transcoded to AAC, it doesn't have DRM in it and can be downloaded and played on a second Mac in VLC or IINA.

ezfe 4y ago

Apple Music does NOT delete local files on Mac/Windows. It syncs them to other devices DRMed, but the original file doesn't get deleted.

selsta 4y ago

The linked post is incorrect, Apple Music doesn't touch or replace any local files. iTunes Match has also been DRM-free since launch.

smcl 4y ago

Other problems include: - deleting songs which were on my computer, but which didn't exist in apple's catalogue waaaay back when I originally signed up. That's long gone, but it still bothered me. - letting me add and listen to albums for months/years, then suddenly marking one or more songs in that album as "not available" (Life Aquatic soundtrack has this, for me) - relisting albums somehow, sometimes while leaving a single track hanging around - moving some songs around, for example "Gun" by Chvrches disappeared from the album it was on (The Bones of What You Believe) but I discovered it has appeared under an album I never added - "Virgin Records: 40 years of Disruptions" - Various Artists. Looking under "Various Artists" is a way to find weird thigns like this - editing the artist in some albums, so while I had a handful under "Prince" they got switched around at one point so they're now by "Prince", "Prince & the N.P.G." and "Prince & The Revolution" Another fun one that annoyed me, Shazam decided of its own accord to add everything I'd ever Shazam'd into my library (I hadn't used it in months at that point, so it's not something I did). Looking back on my old setup (folders with artists/albums/playlists, and xmms) with nostalgia :-/ I don't know how I could build that back up or do so in a way that I could listen to it on the go without having to carry an MP3 player.

musicale 4y ago
> do so in a way that I could listen to it on the go without having to carry an MP3 player Unfortunately (as OP noted) syncing through Apple Music streaming means that you get the Apple Music interpretation of your library rather than your actual library. A (mostly vastly) superior system for users would be if they gave you a terabyte of cloud storage for free and allowed you to upload and stream your actual music library. Didn't Google's cloud music player used to work this way? The main user down side is that uploading your library for the first time takes forever. And from the service provider perspective it wastes a lot of storage and is costly. Another scheme that I think was sued out of existence matched a CD locally and then gave you access to the streamed version of the same CD. This is sort of what Apple Music/iTunes match is trying to do, and they've actually resolved the legal and licensing issues, except that 1) a CD-matching system is less useful in the post-CD streaming era 2) they aren't matching the bits on the original disc and are using a Shazam-like inexact match of the song instead, and 3) the licensing resolution seems (?) to use DRM for lossless songs, 15 years after Steve Jobs' anti-DRM "thoughts on Music" and DRM-free AAC music via iTunes Plus. I wish that Apple would deliver DRM-free and lossless iTunes purchases as Jobs intended.

leethomas 4y ago

I recently started using plexamp and it’s been fantastic. I only use Music.app on my machine to rip CDs to a directory on my NAS that plexamp is serving.

robomartin 4y ago

I haven’t used Apple Music (various applications and incarnations) for a very long time, going back to iPod days. One of the most annoying things was the inability to play an album as recorded. If I want to listen to Mozart’s Requiem, Bach’s Brandenburg Concerto or Pink Floyd’s The Wall, I need to be able to listen to the tracks in the order they are intended. Last I checked this was still impossible. My entire library of hundreds of purchased music CD’s is stored in Windows Media Player. I can listen to albums exactly as the artist intended. Has Apple fixed this? If not, why? I also remember that importing my CD’s into Apple-whatever was a nightmare. Among other things, the metadata that Windows gathered without effort was gone, and the concept of albums seemed to be nonexistent. So, I gave up. At some point you just can’t continue to waste time with bad software.

johnwalkr 4y ago
I've was going to say I've encountered this problem in the nearly 20 years I've been using itunes. But actually I remember back in the day it happening a few times with downloaded mp3s, if metadata for track was missing or if there were typos in some of the metadata (for artist for example).

ben7799 4y ago

It's funny people are still learning this, but I guess some are younger. I have hundreds of CDs I started buying about 1992 or 1993 and did a big project at one point making MP3s and early on in the iTunes/iPod era they found their way into iTunes. I started playing around with MP3 Layer 2 and then Layer 3 around 1995-1996, but at that time it was still prohibitive to try and store your whole collection as hard drives were still barely the size of one CD. I think my computer in 1995-1996 had a 250MB HDD. In 1997 I think I got a 1GB one in a desktop build. But by 2002-2003 this started to not be an issue. There have been so many shenanigans along the way (this reddit thread is just one of them) that I gave up about 9 years ago. I ended up re-scanning every CD as FLAC and storing them all outside of iTunes and then ended up getting a Fiio DAP that could play them. I don't use the Fiio all that much anymore, but I kept on buying CDs and ripping them to FLAC or buying FLACs directly. I definitely didn't buy as much music the past 10 years though. Lately I have gone back to actually playing the CDs in a dedicated CD player and even got a Turntable and now have a very small # of vinyls. Everything is off on the NAS backed up but yet it's somehow just more fun to pull the disc out and play it. It's like the entire physical media -> files -> streaming thing has been a 20 year bad trip. The loudness war didn't help either. It boggles my mind vinyl is making a comeback now, but it seems obvious it is because of the double whammy of the loudness war and the endless shenanigans by Apple and all other digital music stores/streaming platforms. And the stupid thing is there are still tons of releases that actually sound better on Vinyl despite it being an inferior format because they have never gone back and fixed a lot of the loudness issues. Some of these are crazy. The Beatles Sergeant Pepper's album was re-released a few years ago. The Vinyl copy was an improvement on the older vinyl versions. But the CD version was a degradation of the 1997 version that I've owned since the late 90s! Sometimes the streaming services somehow have worse versions than the CD.

naravara 4y ago
Vinyl isn't making a comeback because of mastering or fidelity issues. It's making a comeback because people like the ritual of putting a disc on a platter and having to focus on listening to it. It's a different form of engagement with the music than the endless, pre-curated stream of singles that are the default way of using streaming services.

Cypher 4y ago

oh that's nice of them to destroy your property and replace it with a restricted version.

esher 4y ago

Isn't there a decent mp3 player for macOS with iTunes like functionality to move away from music.app when you only have local files?

markus_zhang 4y ago

I just store mp3 on my phone. I absolutely hate music streaming services nowadays, but for a different reason.

babypuncher 4y ago

I like Apple products, but I learned not to trust them with my music a long time ago. Not because they do anything nefarious, but because their software likes to think it is smarter than me, and often these "smart" features are a little buggy. This might be a continuation of that trend. These days 99% of my music library is FLAC (either ripped from CDs or bought from a lossless store). For use on Apple devices, I maintain an AAC version of my library that iTunes can do whatever it wants with.

lowbloodsugar 4y ago

Worth mentioning that Roon can now stream to your phone from your house.

justinator 4y ago

brndiinoo "Not to be lost in the shuffle of comments, this users seems useful: If you turn off Sync Library in the Apple Music settings then plug into iTunes and sync there again then all that data will come back. Sync library is basically asking them to do exactly what you described so it is more available across all devices without having to use iTunes If you end your subscription then it does delete that data that was being streamed like created playlists which is main complaint of missing music They don't revoke your rights to those songs or make you buy them again. You just need to sync it to iTunes again. Everyone gets confused on that process Source: used to work for Apple Support"

justinator 4y ago

Just to clarify this is, "Apple Music" the service, not "Apple Music" the gutted out app that replaced iTunes, right?

falsenapkin 4y ago

My favorite Apple Music oddity: I imported an album for which I have the MP3s from Bandcamp, however on the streaming side the album is in some sort of limbo where the service is aware of it but it's not available in my country. As a result, I can't listen to the album despite possessing the files. On my phone I can't even find the album easily and if I do I get a not authorized message.

bloomingeek 4y ago

Old timer here..I learned ages ago if it's not backed up on a portable drive, then you're willing/going to lose it someday. (Of course, in the beginning I used floppies and then CD/DVDs when they became available.) Now a days I download legal MP3's or rip my purchased CDs. ALL of these files are backed up on Portable drive. Hate to say it, but there isn't a company on earth that thinks we consumers actually own anything. As for cloud storage, those who trust it haven't been screwed yet, and yes, they think whatever you store there belongs to them.

tmpburning 4y ago
> portable drive Also, you probably shouldn't keep the portable drive in the same building as your PC (other backup)... I like to keep one portable drive in my car that update once in a while.
analog31 4y ago
My family still buys CDs, as it turns out to be the most efficient way for indie musicians to make money on their recordings. The CD's get ripped onto a drive, then filed away in a box. The drive gets backed up.
rsync 4y ago
"... there isn't a company on earth that thinks we consumers actually own anything. As for cloud storage, those who trust it haven't been screwed yet, and yes, they think whatever you store there belongs to them." I know of at least one company - that thinks you own your own files. It's actually a cloud storage company. 21 years and not one person screwed.

d883kd8 4y ago

This is a legit cause of action against apple, they are violating CFAA and accessing your computer without permission when they delete your files

FourthProtocol 4y ago

I struggle understanding cloud-based storage on anything personally mine. I want my music where I am. Same for video, and ESPECIALLY documents. Still using Windows Media Player, too.

eointierney 4y ago

That is surely a form of theft, no? It is utterly despicable either way, and exactly the behavior I would expect from a sociopath. I understand the aesthetic appeal of the relatively well-designed products but anyone who buys Apple products is enabling a hugely powerful abuser. Just say no to rotten fruit kids!

ranprieur 4y ago

I get mp3s from Bandcamp or Soulseek, keep them in folders on my laptop, and put them on an old Sansa Clip for listening. If I make a playlist, I use Mp3tag to change all the album names to whatever the name of my playlist is.

atoav 4y ago

If it is not a file on your file system in an OS you control, it all boils down to somebody else caring enough about you and your files. And boy, do they hate you owning files.

Hoasi 4y ago

Now that's even worse than forcing Bono on you. Alway keep a back up.

jejeyyy77 4y ago
lol or just torrent the entire discography.

mmh0000 4y ago

Y'alls with iPhones should checkout foobar2000 (it's actually multi-platform and the best music player); but, notably, directly related to the article: The iPhone foobar2000 version allows you, through its internal FTP server, to upload media in its native format (mp3,flac and many others) directly to the app. This means no more transcoding for iTunes, and all tags/filenames are retained. It also means your phone can act as a backup of your library. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/foobar2000/id1072807669 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/foobar2000/id1072807669 https://www.foobar2000.org/ https://www.foobar2000.org/

madphilosopher 4y ago
foobar2000 on iOS is game-changing. Thank you so much for your recommendation! The iOS Music.app is so bad. I've suffered long enough with it.
eliasdaler 4y ago
I can also highly recommend Plex and Plexamp. They're fantastic - I use it for storing my music on NAS and playing it from all my devices. https://plexamp.com/ https://plexamp.com/

orloffm 4y ago

I remember even John Gruber (!) was complaining about something like this back in 2015. That matching functionality is something so brittle and suspicious that of course has to be avoided.

JohnTHaller 4y ago

iirc, the Match feature downloads a higher quality AAC version of your lower quality MP3s. If you select lossless, it downloads a DRMed version. Also, iirc, the downloads are watermarked with your user details in the tags but I'm less sure of that as I last looked at it years ago.

hellfish 4y ago

I wonder if there's a way to exploit this to get free music out of apple...

hejaodbsidndbd 4y ago

sprkwd 4y ago

Always has done. Keep your music and any music streaming service as far away from each other as you can.

brokenmachine 4y ago

People seem surprised by this. Have a cursory read of the terms and conditions - you're an Apple hostage, at their mercy. Why do people accept this? There's a million different ways around it, but none of them involve accepting Apple and their bullshit. I buy CDs and rip them to flac, or buy non-DRM encumbered files and sync my music to my own storage.

oznog 4y ago

> your original songs Meec. Not yours.