6 ms·

As a Minnesotan with an unheated detached garage, I’d be very interested to know about -40°F performance. We get a couple of those days every year. I have been

by donatj 4y ago

As a Minnesotan with an unheated detached garage, I’d be very interested to know about -40°F performance. We get a couple of those days every year. I have been looking at my next car potentially being an EV and am really curious about the extremes.

castratikron 4y ago
A lot of ICE cars won't even start at 40 below. Those cases should count as zero mile range
- laptop-man 4y ago
  cold batts always get worse range got to plug it in and have a batt warmer (like Tesla). not such a foreign idea when you have to do that for Diesel to get them to start in the cold.
- 5e92cb50239222b 4y ago
  Those can be warmed up with a g̶a̶s̶o̶l̶i̶n̶e blowtorch. Or you can fit your car with an alarm system that auto starts the engine throughout the night to keep it warm. That's what pretty much everyone is doing where I'm from (-25°C is a pretty typical winter temperature here, with drops down to -40-45°C for a couple weeks each winter). After that you get tolerable gas mileage. I don't drive much, but from my friends' description it sounds like you get around 30-40% more gas usage compared to warmer months.
  - metadat 4y ago
    What is a gasoline torch? Would blowtorching a vehicle be detrimental and destructive to it?
    - 5e92cb50239222b 4y ago
      Yeah, I probably should have looked in the dictionary before posting that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowtorch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowtorch It's pretty dangerous, burns down quite a few cars each year, but people don't care or have no other options. I think during the last couple of years there were two fires near my house alone.
      - metadat 4y ago
        Do people run the open-flame torch it in the room where the vehicle is (to hear the air)? What about a plug-in solution such as a space heater?
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
  - anthomtb 4y ago
    I thought electric block heaters were common in cold climates. Is the blow torch a last resort if you cannot park your car in range of an outlet?
    - 5e92cb50239222b 4y ago
      Maybe in Norway or Canada or other 'rich' countries. Most people have no place to park their cars, they just leave them wherever in the open (since most live in apartments and there are few garages available). Those who have enough money to afford an alarm system and pay the increased gasoline bill (because it adds about an hour of idling your engine each day) rarely revert to such measures, but many do. I see them every morning when temperature drops below -30°C or so.
      - foxyv 4y ago
        That makes EVs look even worse.
    - aaronax 4y ago
      They seem much less common than they used to be. More people have garages, and modern vehicles will easily start down to - 15F maybe. I would much rather have a battery jump pack since a weak battery is the most likely problem. Though those are weak in the cold too...
    - _ph_ 4y ago
      Well, if that garage has electricity, the electric car could charge and pre-heat there easily. Which would largely eliminate range-loss.
- nonethewiser 4y ago
  Heating block
- LinuxBender 4y ago
  My old vehicle gets really grumpy at -10F. I use an oil pan heater, a battery maintainer 1.5 amps, 2 heat-lamps above the engine and fuel additives heat, seafoam that keep it running. The only downside is that I feed all the local birds and they discovered my heat lamps.
  - pengaru 4y ago
    > My old vehicle gets really grumpy at -10F. I use an oil pan heater, a battery maintainer 1.5 amps, 2 heat-lamps above the engine and fuel additives heat, seafoam that keep it running. The only downside is that I feed all the local birds and they discovered my heat lamps. The only downside? The entire comment constitutes a list of down sides...
    - LinuxBender 4y ago
      Perhaps. Not for me really. I would be using seafoam anyway as the heads on my engine have a manufacturer defect that causes sludge so I have to change the oil often. I use seafoam in both the fuel and oil. Electricity here is 11 cents per KwH so I am ok with the heating devices as that is significantly less power than an EV even if I factor in fuel costs. Once I finish my solar setup the power becomes moot. The only thing that bothers me is that when I lift the hood to remove the heat lamps, a bird may fly out and when they go from 80F to -10F they can go into shock. They stand next to me for a minute or two and then fly away probably out of sheer boredom of listening to me.
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  Anyone who is trying to start an ICE at -40 (C or F, they are the same at that temp), will have it plugged in with a block heater. Or if in Russia they’ll have an insulated jacket for the car.
- mkhpalm 4y ago
  To be fair, it typically costs about $50 for a block heater which allows you to start below 40 degrees in an ICE. Whats the solution for EV?
  - noahtallen 4y ago
    I believe they “just work.” Electric motors don’t stop working at low temps. I think it’s mostly just range that’s impacted since EVs can’t use the inefficient part of an ICE (e.g. energy produced by gas not captured by the powertrain) for heat, so they have to run heat pumps. (Along with battery chemistry not working as well in low temps)
    - mkhpalm 4y ago
      Depending on the EV you you void the battery warranty keeping it in extreme temperatures like 40 below. And it affects the range.
  - ezfe 4y ago
    EVs could (and some do) self-heat the battery when temps are low enough for damage
  - t_tsonev 4y ago
    EVs will maintain the battery temperature if plugged in, usually at 0C. Even if not plugged-in they'll try to keep the battery above temperatures that may be damaging, e.g. -30C. This only works for a sufficiently charged battery.
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago
  Every modern gasoline vehicle should be fine at those temps even without a block heater. It's just a question of can your 12v battery deliver enough power to start it, but that's a problem you can solve in 30min if you encounter it (bring your battery inside).
jmclnx 4y ago
I would not buy an EV where you are. Also I wonder how fast it will charge when it is very cold outside. I heard Toyota has some kind of hydrogen car, maybe that would be better ? I live in the north and I will not by an EV until the range reaches Gas Autos when the Temp is below 0F with the heat blasting. Getting caught in the cold without fuel is not good. And I wonder if Wind Chill can decrease range even more. I fully believe all EVs are tested and developed for the Southwest US, ignoring real conditions many people encounter.
- coredog64 4y ago
  Ford and GM have proving grounds in Michigan and Arizona. Nissan failed to test the Leaf in desert conditions and it led them to not include battery cooling, something that ate batteries and IIRC, was also the subject of a class action suit.
- dawnerd 4y ago
  Plenty of people own EVs in extreme cold and get by just fine. Look at Norway, EVs are incredibly common there and they’re regularly driven to the far north without much fanfare. https://www.youtube.com/@bjornnyland/videos https://www.youtube.com/@bjornnyland/videos
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    Populated Norway actually isn’t that cold. The average high/low for their coldest month is 0C/-5C. In contrast Seattle is 8C/2C. I’m curious how EVs are doing in a city like Harbin where it is -24C/-13C.
    - dawnerd 4y ago
      That’s why I linked to Bjorn’s channel. He regularly tests extreme cold on EVs (and even camps in them)
    - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
      The city in the quote above is Oslo. Somehow I omitted that from my comment.
boplicity 4y ago
It maybe worth calculating the cost of adding some insulation and very limited heating to your detached garage; this could be a factor, in terms of the overall cost of vehicle ownership.
- nonethewiser 4y ago
  I think that's excessive and even wasteful. He can use a heating block.
  - lazide 4y ago
    There is a lot of utility in a (moderately) heated garage. Nothing crazy, just up to a little above freezing. For one, it really helps in breaking up packed in snow/ice in the wheel wells overnight, which used to be a big hassle for me.
cmrdporcupine 4y ago
You'll be fine if you pick a quality EV that does proper battery temperature maintenance. I've been driving a Volt here in Ontario for years no issues. GM & Tesla have put proper engineering into this. Nissan has notoriously cut costs on battery cooling/heating in ways that have led to shortened battery life. Others, your mileage may vary (literally)
- galangalalgol 4y ago
  Is there a comparison somewhere of the cooling used by different EVs and PHEVs? I know tesla does it right but there is rarely enough information provided by manufacturers to tell if they can take the pack temp below ambient or not. It is by far my largest concern in selecting my next vehicle. I want to wait for the cyber truck, but I am vonsidering the pacifica PHEV
  - ezfe 4y ago
    I've no idea what it actually does, but the manual and car settings for my Subaru say that when it has sufficient power it will auto-heat/cool the battery to prevent damage.
grecy 4y ago
> We get a couple of those days every year I'm always curious about things like this. Did you insulate your house for the -40 days? Did you buy your winter coat and gloves based on -40 days? Did you install a block heater, battery blanket and oil pan heater in your ICE car for those -40 days? I'm betting you didn't, because you know they only happen a couple of times a year, and it's not worth spending all the money and effort for something that happens so rarely. What you have for the -20 and -30 days is good enough for the (very) occasional -40. The same is true for your EV. (FWIW: I lived just above 60 degrees north for 4 years. I rode my bike to work every day. For many months it was often colder than -30, and at least a month a year it was colder than -40.)
- dahfizz 4y ago
  > The same is true for your EV. I don't think that's exactly true. -30F and below is cold enough to permanently damage the battery in an EV. Letting the electrolyte freeze just once will ruin your battery. It doesn't matter how many -40 days you get, you really do have to be prepared for them. Your ICE car may not start if it's that cold, but it will work like new once it's warmed back up. The solution is simple - just keep your EV plugged in, and it will heat itself as necessary. If you don't have a place to charge 24/7, probably don't get an EV in these climates.
  - bmicraft 4y ago
    I'm pretty sure Teslas keep their batteries heated to above cell-freezing level even without them being plugged in. The expectation is that you would recharge it before the battery gets to low to continue heating.
    - dahfizz 4y ago
      That's true, but my understanding is that the Tesla will only be able to keep itself warm for a day or two. So you need to charge the thing every day - really only practical with home charging.
  - grecy 4y ago
m463 4y ago
I think a few things: - even an unheated garage will have some thermal mass and not reach the wind chill temperatures outside. this can make a huge difference. - plug in the car in the garage. most cars do thermal management and this keeps the battery warm and healthy without depleting its own charge. - even when not plugged in, these cars will keep the batteries warm (using battery power to warm the battery) - electric cars can run the heater and be toasty warm when you want to drive.

by donatj 4y ago

castratikron 4y ago

A lot of ICE cars won't even start at 40 below. Those cases should count as zero mile range

laptop-man 4y ago
cold batts always get worse range got to plug it in and have a batt warmer (like Tesla). not such a foreign idea when you have to do that for Diesel to get them to start in the cold.
5e92cb50239222b 4y ago
Those can be warmed up with a g̶a̶s̶o̶l̶i̶n̶e blowtorch. Or you can fit your car with an alarm system that auto starts the engine throughout the night to keep it warm. That's what pretty much everyone is doing where I'm from (-25°C is a pretty typical winter temperature here, with drops down to -40-45°C for a couple weeks each winter). After that you get tolerable gas mileage. I don't drive much, but from my friends' description it sounds like you get around 30-40% more gas usage compared to warmer months.
- metadat 4y ago
  What is a gasoline torch? Would blowtorching a vehicle be detrimental and destructive to it?
  - 5e92cb50239222b 4y ago
    Yeah, I probably should have looked in the dictionary before posting that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowtorch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowtorch It's pretty dangerous, burns down quite a few cars each year, but people don't care or have no other options. I think during the last couple of years there were two fires near my house alone.
    - metadat 4y ago
      Do people run the open-flame torch it in the room where the vehicle is (to hear the air)? What about a plug-in solution such as a space heater?
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
- anthomtb 4y ago
  I thought electric block heaters were common in cold climates. Is the blow torch a last resort if you cannot park your car in range of an outlet?
  - 5e92cb50239222b 4y ago
    Maybe in Norway or Canada or other 'rich' countries. Most people have no place to park their cars, they just leave them wherever in the open (since most live in apartments and there are few garages available). Those who have enough money to afford an alarm system and pay the increased gasoline bill (because it adds about an hour of idling your engine each day) rarely revert to such measures, but many do. I see them every morning when temperature drops below -30°C or so.
    - foxyv 4y ago
      That makes EVs look even worse.
  - aaronax 4y ago
    They seem much less common than they used to be. More people have garages, and modern vehicles will easily start down to - 15F maybe. I would much rather have a battery jump pack since a weak battery is the most likely problem. Though those are weak in the cold too...
  - _ph_ 4y ago
    Well, if that garage has electricity, the electric car could charge and pre-heat there easily. Which would largely eliminate range-loss.
nonethewiser 4y ago
Heating block
LinuxBender 4y ago
My old vehicle gets really grumpy at -10F. I use an oil pan heater, a battery maintainer 1.5 amps, 2 heat-lamps above the engine and fuel additives heat, seafoam that keep it running. The only downside is that I feed all the local birds and they discovered my heat lamps.
- pengaru 4y ago
  > My old vehicle gets really grumpy at -10F. I use an oil pan heater, a battery maintainer 1.5 amps, 2 heat-lamps above the engine and fuel additives heat, seafoam that keep it running. The only downside is that I feed all the local birds and they discovered my heat lamps. The only downside? The entire comment constitutes a list of down sides...
  - LinuxBender 4y ago
    Perhaps. Not for me really. I would be using seafoam anyway as the heads on my engine have a manufacturer defect that causes sludge so I have to change the oil often. I use seafoam in both the fuel and oil. Electricity here is 11 cents per KwH so I am ok with the heating devices as that is significantly less power than an EV even if I factor in fuel costs. Once I finish my solar setup the power becomes moot. The only thing that bothers me is that when I lift the hood to remove the heat lamps, a bird may fly out and when they go from 80F to -10F they can go into shock. They stand next to me for a minute or two and then fly away probably out of sheer boredom of listening to me.
seanmcdirmid 4y ago
Anyone who is trying to start an ICE at -40 (C or F, they are the same at that temp), will have it plugged in with a block heater. Or if in Russia they’ll have an insulated jacket for the car.
mkhpalm 4y ago
To be fair, it typically costs about $50 for a block heater which allows you to start below 40 degrees in an ICE. Whats the solution for EV?
- noahtallen 4y ago
  I believe they “just work.” Electric motors don’t stop working at low temps. I think it’s mostly just range that’s impacted since EVs can’t use the inefficient part of an ICE (e.g. energy produced by gas not captured by the powertrain) for heat, so they have to run heat pumps. (Along with battery chemistry not working as well in low temps)
  - mkhpalm 4y ago
    Depending on the EV you you void the battery warranty keeping it in extreme temperatures like 40 below. And it affects the range.
- ezfe 4y ago
  EVs could (and some do) self-heat the battery when temps are low enough for damage
- t_tsonev 4y ago
  EVs will maintain the battery temperature if plugged in, usually at 0C. Even if not plugged-in they'll try to keep the battery above temperatures that may be damaging, e.g. -30C. This only works for a sufficiently charged battery.
dsfyu404ed 4y ago
Every modern gasoline vehicle should be fine at those temps even without a block heater. It's just a question of can your 12v battery deliver enough power to start it, but that's a problem you can solve in 30min if you encounter it (bring your battery inside).

jmclnx 4y ago

I would not buy an EV where you are. Also I wonder how fast it will charge when it is very cold outside. I heard Toyota has some kind of hydrogen car, maybe that would be better ? I live in the north and I will not by an EV until the range reaches Gas Autos when the Temp is below 0F with the heat blasting. Getting caught in the cold without fuel is not good. And I wonder if Wind Chill can decrease range even more. I fully believe all EVs are tested and developed for the Southwest US, ignoring real conditions many people encounter.

coredog64 4y ago
Ford and GM have proving grounds in Michigan and Arizona. Nissan failed to test the Leaf in desert conditions and it led them to not include battery cooling, something that ate batteries and IIRC, was also the subject of a class action suit.
dawnerd 4y ago
Plenty of people own EVs in extreme cold and get by just fine. Look at Norway, EVs are incredibly common there and they’re regularly driven to the far north without much fanfare. https://www.youtube.com/@bjornnyland/videos https://www.youtube.com/@bjornnyland/videos
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  Populated Norway actually isn’t that cold. The average high/low for their coldest month is 0C/-5C. In contrast Seattle is 8C/2C. I’m curious how EVs are doing in a city like Harbin where it is -24C/-13C.
  - dawnerd 4y ago
    That’s why I linked to Bjorn’s channel. He regularly tests extreme cold on EVs (and even camps in them)
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    The city in the quote above is Oslo. Somehow I omitted that from my comment.

boplicity 4y ago

It maybe worth calculating the cost of adding some insulation and very limited heating to your detached garage; this could be a factor, in terms of the overall cost of vehicle ownership.

nonethewiser 4y ago
I think that's excessive and even wasteful. He can use a heating block.
- lazide 4y ago
  There is a lot of utility in a (moderately) heated garage. Nothing crazy, just up to a little above freezing. For one, it really helps in breaking up packed in snow/ice in the wheel wells overnight, which used to be a big hassle for me.

cmrdporcupine 4y ago

You'll be fine if you pick a quality EV that does proper battery temperature maintenance. I've been driving a Volt here in Ontario for years no issues. GM & Tesla have put proper engineering into this. Nissan has notoriously cut costs on battery cooling/heating in ways that have led to shortened battery life. Others, your mileage may vary (literally)

galangalalgol 4y ago
Is there a comparison somewhere of the cooling used by different EVs and PHEVs? I know tesla does it right but there is rarely enough information provided by manufacturers to tell if they can take the pack temp below ambient or not. It is by far my largest concern in selecting my next vehicle. I want to wait for the cyber truck, but I am vonsidering the pacifica PHEV
- ezfe 4y ago
  I've no idea what it actually does, but the manual and car settings for my Subaru say that when it has sufficient power it will auto-heat/cool the battery to prevent damage.

grecy 4y ago

> We get a couple of those days every year I'm always curious about things like this. Did you insulate your house for the -40 days? Did you buy your winter coat and gloves based on -40 days? Did you install a block heater, battery blanket and oil pan heater in your ICE car for those -40 days? I'm betting you didn't, because you know they only happen a couple of times a year, and it's not worth spending all the money and effort for something that happens so rarely. What you have for the -20 and -30 days is good enough for the (very) occasional -40. The same is true for your EV. (FWIW: I lived just above 60 degrees north for 4 years. I rode my bike to work every day. For many months it was often colder than -30, and at least a month a year it was colder than -40.)

dahfizz 4y ago
> The same is true for your EV. I don't think that's exactly true. -30F and below is cold enough to permanently damage the battery in an EV. Letting the electrolyte freeze just once will ruin your battery. It doesn't matter how many -40 days you get, you really do have to be prepared for them. Your ICE car may not start if it's that cold, but it will work like new once it's warmed back up. The solution is simple - just keep your EV plugged in, and it will heat itself as necessary. If you don't have a place to charge 24/7, probably don't get an EV in these climates.
- bmicraft 4y ago
  I'm pretty sure Teslas keep their batteries heated to above cell-freezing level even without them being plugged in. The expectation is that you would recharge it before the battery gets to low to continue heating.
  - dahfizz 4y ago
    That's true, but my understanding is that the Tesla will only be able to keep itself warm for a day or two. So you need to charge the thing every day - really only practical with home charging.
- grecy 4y ago

m463 4y ago

I think a few things: - even an unheated garage will have some thermal mass and not reach the wind chill temperatures outside. this can make a huge difference. - plug in the car in the garage. most cars do thermal management and this keeps the battery warm and healthy without depleting its own charge. - even when not plugged in, these cars will keep the batteries warm (using battery power to warm the battery) - electric cars can run the heater and be toasty warm when you want to drive.