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Finding the B-21's hangar location from the stars in its press image
- kevmoo1 4y agoThis is peek internet. Amazing!
- ChuckNorris89 4y agoI believe it's exactly how 4chan would keep finding Shia LeBeouf's flags shown on webcam he was was hiding at remote locations.
- Traubenfuchs 4y agoWith added train sounds and honking I believe. Excellent work!
- sp332 4y ago*Hangar
- rob74 4y agoIt's "hangar", not "hanger", dammit!
- cf100clunk 4y agoI thought the article was going to tell us about a secret clothes closet aboard the new bomber.
- rognjen 4y agoJeff Attwood replied exactly that.
- darknavi 4y agoNote to self: Always, always, ALWAYS strip exif data.
- Kiboneu 4y agoYou’ve confused the data with the metadata.
- bfgoodrich 4y ago
- Denvercoder9 4y agoExif data is the metadata of the image.
- lmm 4y agoExactly, whereas stars shown in the image are just data, you don't need the exif data to see them.
- insane_dreamer 4y agoBut the time the photo was taken was extracted from the exif which is what OP was referring to stripping
- lmm 4y agoIf you can see stars, satellites and planets you can figure out the time. It makes the problem a little harder (you've got to locate a point in 2+1 dimensional space rather than on the 2 dimensional surface of the Earth), but it's not a fundamental difference.
- Kiboneu 4y agoThe lesson here isn’t to strip exif data, though. It’s to identify information that can be connected to anything to infer metadata that you want to keep hidden. If you always wipe exif data, and don’t investigate your pictures, then you will eventually neglect some combination of data points someone could use to infer richer context.
- boardwaalk 4y agoI mean, they livestreamed the rollout on YouTube on the Edward’s AFB YouTube channel and said it was at NG’s Palmdale facility (paraphrasing). I’m not sure any of this was a secret…
- bri3d 4y agoThis is acknowledged by the author: https://twitter.com/johnmcelhone8/status/1600683636029652993 https://twitter.com/johnmcelhone8/status/1600683636029652993 Which I think is also why the thread is so X-marks-the-spot / parallel-reconstruction-y. I think it's more of a "here's the kind of thing we can do with these star-matching tools, applied to an interesting image as an example" than an expose.
- bee_rider 4y agoAlso the Airforce and Northrop Grumman must be familiar with the idea of celestial navigation. And the shot was clearly taken in the evening on purpose (I assume, at least, that a PR shot has to justify being taken outside of maximum daylight). They probably want it to feel vaguely spacey for the sci-fi vibes. They’ve got at least as good star charts as the rest of us, so if they really wanted to be jokers they could photoshop some stars in, make it look like it is flying over an adversary’s country…
- avalys 4y agoNot only that, they had three bombers (B1, B2, and B52) fly over during the live stream of the unveiling that could be tracked live on commercial flight tracking websites. This simply wasn’t a secret at all.
- 4gotunameagain 4y agoThis livestream is the best caricature of American culture I've seen, thank you. It is the unveiling of a bomber, with the national anthem sung by an employee of the company who built it, as in a proper performance, while more bombers fly ahead so loudly he has to stop. Then it proceeds to have the CEO read an engineered speech from a teleprompter, completely devoid of her own existence. Followed by a hollywood action movie style reveal, with the attendees going wild, clapping and shouting for the new, shiny bomber. It is a gift that keeps on giving. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chJlJgrvfBY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chJlJgrvfBY
- rootusrootus 4y agoWith the casual change from "34-35 degrees" to "lets draw a line at 34 degrees" followed by the "and this is where the press release was" I got the vibe that this was parallel construction. Still some good sleuthing, don't get me wrong, but still.
- dsfyu404ed 4y agoAlso goes to show you the danger of tunnel vision. If they flew one to some air base outside DC for the roll out the author would be shooting from the hip and who knows what facility he'd have zero'd in on. Sure it might have been the same one because "the same facility as the B2" is an easy just-so story but you don't really know with any certainty.
- fourthark 4y agoIt doesn’t fly yet, so that narrows it down a bit.
- jbverschoor 4y agoDo they’re trying to scare Russian with an airplane that can only be taxied around? I wonder if it’s made out of proper material and not just some clay concept
- mgfist 4y agoThe US has retired planes decades ago that are superior to the best Russia has today, so no I doubt we really care about Russia's thoughts. China maybe.
- vba616 4y agoAren't things getting to the point where drones are a global commodity and indigenous manufacturing capability is mostly moot?
- supergirl 4y agomisleading. was more like: * he got the approximate latitude from the stars (34 or 35) * independently, he found the most plausible airbase based on other information and then noticed that the base is indeed around that latitude
- johnmcelhone 4y agoThe process can still be done using entirely the star pattern and no Google Maps. There wasn't any reason to exclude other information I could use, so I didn't.
- calvinmorrison 4y agoThis has only been bested by the 4chan takedown of the Shia LaBeouf's anti-trump flag, which was put up in a random location with a live stream. "On March 8, the artists, abandoning the idea of a public webcam, raised a white flag, emblazoned with the words “He Will Not Divide Us,” in an “unknown location.” The livestream showed only the flag and the expanse of sky behind it. 4Chan and 8Chan (the forum where discussions that are banned from 4Chan go) snapped into action.... They used the star patterns visible behind the flag at night and the paths of planes flying overhead to confirm the location. A troll who lived nearby drove around honking until the noise was audible on the livestream. On the night of March 10, a group raided the site, took down the flag, and replaced it with a Pepe the Frog T-shirt and a “Make America Great Again” hat. The stream soon went dark again."
- amiga386 4y agoAgreed. Here are the full details: https://youtu.be/vw9zyxm860Q?t=15 https://youtu.be/vw9zyxm860Q?t=15
- Victerius 4y agoImpressive. Now do it without using a computer, the old fashioned way, with books, paper maps, star charts, slide rulers, sextants, compasses, and pens. I'm sure some people would be able to.
- daveslash 4y agoThis is very cool sleuthing. Really enjoyed the walkthrough. Though, if you would have asked me, I would have guessed Lancaster/Palmdale, because I know (a) That's where the unveiling was (b) I have seen B-1's fly over me while driving in Palmdale and (c) I know Edwards and a bunch of other spacey stuff is there. I feel like Captain Kirk looking for whales and saying "I think we'll find what we're looking for at the Cetacean Institute in Sausalito" - a far less methodical or impressive approach.
- mrexroad 4y agoAhem, not to be that person… but I think you mean Admiral Kirk :) Either way, it’s a perfect reference.
- daveslash 4y agoYou sir, are correct. Thank you for the correction! Please be that person. Btw, my wife and I were able to visit the Monterrey Bay aquarium for the first time this past November -- and I would just not shut up with the references. My wife loved them, but also was a bit over them by the end.
- mrexroad 4y agoHaha, that’s awesome. The first time I visited there with my wife, I started on about how the “Cetacean Institute” sign was missing (gasp!) and before I could even finish whatever joke I was leading up to, my wife simply gave me a look that registered somewhere between, “I’m going to pretend I don’t know you” and “you will wait in the car if this continues.” No further references or colorful metaphors were communicated that visit. Years later I took my kids there for an overnighter and they became the captive audience for all the references and terrible jokes. Luckily i think there were too young to really remember. Along those lines, I re-watched ST:IV with my kids a few months back and they loved it. Of all the lines, my youngest was rolling in laughter when the old lady in the hospital is chanting “the dr gave me a pill and i grew a new kidney!”
- vba616 4y ago
- mk_stjames 4y agoI feel like the entire thread should have led off with "This is in fact a publicly known hangar in Palmdale and this was known as public information as soon as the unveiling event occurred, and thus this is just an exercise to show how locating the spot could have been possible from just this photo as a technical demonstration." Because I guarantee there are going to be a hundred clickbait articles by various 'news' sites now in the next few days about the MASSIVE SECURITY BREACH of the USAF and how US SECRETS have been EXPOSED so and and so forth. When nothing about this is actually the case.
- johnmcelhone 4y agoI did mention this later in the thread - was just a fun experiment to see if locating it was possible if we didn't know
- Sporktacular 4y agoSure, but the reason you didn't lead with that, and also the reason you did this for a secretive aircraft and not a new campervan is clicks, no?
- yalogin 4y agoTo be fair, a secretive aircraft would trigger thoughts about security in a hacker's mind. A camper van does not trigger any such thoughts. It may not be just clicks, with a camper van the whole thread might not even exist. I am not the original poster, so this is just my thought
- stuff4ben 4y agoEven if he did do this for the clicks, so what?
- Sporktacular 4y agoSo it's manipulative. Like a sensational headline that buries the mundanity at the end. Lead with "this is already publicly known" so people can make an informed choice about where to direct their attention.
- kyawzazaw 4y agoso interesting
- mierle 4y agoWow, it's cool to see astrometry.net get put to use! I worked on astrometry.net back in undergrad and grad school. If you have questions about how it works, I can answer them. How does it work? astrometry.net uses 4-star combinations to define codes, then indexes the codes on the celestial sphere. The particulars of each of these phases matter, but that's the basic idea.
- tetris11 4y agois A,B,C,D in the database the same as D,C,B,A? Or does order infer orientation?
- gmiller123456 4y agoIt uses a hash which is scale and orientation independent. A lot of the details are described in this paper: https://arxiv.org/abs/0910.2233 https://arxiv.org/abs/0910.2233
- moloch-hai 4y agoOrder cannot infer anything. Only people, animals, and some programs can infer. Inanimate facts can at most imply.
- antognini 4y agoI used to be in astronomy and I always thought astrometry.net was one of the coolest tools in the field. It feels about as close to magic as you can get.
- dakr 4y agoI remember my jaw dropping while sitting in a colloquium hearing about astrometry.net from David Hogg back in ...2007? Fast forwarding a few years, we started using it at SOFIA Observatory to help speed up telescope acquisitions.
- malfist 4y agoAstrometry.net is damn handy. I don't use it too much these days for myself except for annotating images, but I do have some friends just getting into astronomy and it's blind solve is amazing to help them. Plus when I show them plate solving their minds are blown. Hugely useful tool.
- mpsprd 4y agoHeh. This makes me remember how the same technique was used in the "he will not divide us" trolling campaign to locate a video feed of a flag. Internet Historian has a video about IIRC.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- saraton1n 4y agoThis reminds me of the Elon plane tracking dude. Such a neat use of technology and know-how.
- NikolaNovak 4y agoRelated unrelated question : how come this is public? F117 was a dark skunk project shown years after being operational. That made sense to me for a super secret project with wildly new technologies and capabilities. I don't understand the announcements of such projects from the vision stage, with the details of capability, purpose, strategy, photos,etc. Is it commoditized sufficiently? Is it deterrence? Is there enough misinformation?
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- ForHackernews 4y agoI've read some things that suggest the B-21 may not offer radical new capabilities (over say, the B-2) but it will be way way cheaper to build and operate. There were only 21 B-2s ever built. The Air Force has already ordered 100 B-21s.
- dragonwriter 4y ago> There were only 21 B-2s ever built. The Air Force has already ordered 100 B-21s. Planned, not ordered. Just like they initially planned 130+ B-2s, which Congress eventually cut to 21.
- kevin_thibedeau 4y agoThat number will shrink. There were supposed to be 100+ B2s and no B1Bs.
- thunderbird120 4y agoI doubt it. The B-2 was cut because the cold war ended and because it was absurdly expensive to maintain thanks to its 1980s stealth tech. The radar-absorbent material used for the B-2 degraded very quickly and it's a large aircraft, so that means absolutely constant work to keep it functioning as intended. The B-2s are based out of Missouri and when they go on a mission they fly all the way to the other side of the wold and then back to the central USA. Why? Because Whiteman Airforce base is the only one which has the massive climate-controlled hangars you need to stick the B-2s in to keep them from falling apart while on the ground. If the US built a fleet of 100+ B-2s in the 1990s we'd have ended up with a fleet of cutting edge bombers which cost more than $100,000 per flight-hour to operate and no one to use them against. A fleet of 100+ B-2s during the 2000s would have been a massive white elephant. The B-21 is different in two important ways. First, the B-21s stealth tech is derived from lessons learned from the F-35 program. The F-35 is a tactical fighter which the US and most of its allies are buying in very large numbers. They need to be stationed just about anywhere and can't require ridiculous maintenance to keep their skin from falling off. That would be impractical for a large fleet of aircraft. As such, a lot of work went into making the radar absorbent material used on the F-35 dramatically more durable. The B-21 gets to piggyback off of that and as a result it will be much more feasible to actually have a large fleet of them. Second, there's a new cold war heating up with China. Anyone whose ever looked at the Pacific ocean might notice that it's kind of large. This makes range a major concern for combat aircraft. A medium stealth bomber with extreme range is essentially perfect for this environment because it can reach anywhere and is very hard to actually find once in flight. If you are a surface warship force, being hunted by a bunch of nearly undetectable aircraft which can be anywhere at anytime and can each carry more than a dozen large anti-ship missiles is going keep you up at night. The B-21 will likely end up being a very important piece in the US naval strategy in the pacific. I wouldn't be surprised to see significantly more than 100 get built.
- rr888 4y agoIts pretty amazing some of the stories coming out of Ukraine. People posting on social media then getting blown up soon after. https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-news-exposed-mortar-carrier-ukraine-says-journalist-denied-2022-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-news-exposed-mortar-c...
- pifm_guy 4y agoIt's worth noting that stars can be seen even in daylight with the right software. That's because, while no individual star is visible, the exact angles between all stars is fixed, so you can do a brute force search of all possible orientations of the sky to find a matching one. In a 6 megapixel image of half blue sky, you effectively get an oversampling ratio of 3 million:1, so even with very bright sunlight obscuring the stars to the naked eye, your algorithm will pick them out.
- folli 4y agoVery interesting! Any links for further reading?
- pifm_guy 4y agoNope - years ago I accidentally discovered this while trying to align star images for stacking. Some of my images were taken in daylight, and I was surprised to find my rudimentary image aligner still worked just fine. Never wrote it up into a blog post.
- 4gotunameagain 4y agoDo you mind expanding a bit more ? Because I don't understand. Even if you have oversampling, as you say, it would be after you know the locations of the stars, and also, how can you brute force every possible right ascension/declination/rotation ? Without a calibrated camera how do you account for the distortions ? Thanks
- pifm_guy 4y agoIn my case, I had nighttime images from the same camera, so all the calibration was already done... I was just looking for a rotated version of the nighttime image in the daytime image. But even in the general case, smallish image patches don't have enough distortion to matter, while still having plenty of oversampling, and only have 3 unknowns. You can probably do some kind of fft trickery to reduce it to 1 unknown. And you can probably use some kind of hill-climbing to further reduce the search effort.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- teekert 4y agoOmg I opened a Twitter thread and when that dreaded moment came where that black takes over the screen and I can’t even scroll back anymore… now I was able to just tap an X and keep reading! Hooray for Elon?
- NotYourLawyer 4y agoWait, this didn’t even rely on the constellations though. Get the latitude from the North Star and then look for matching air bases.
- httpz 4y agoI thought so too but I think you need to know the constellations first to identify the North Star in the photo.
- johnmcelhone 4y agoThis is correct. The brightness of the stars made them a bit difficult to identify by eye, I'm sure someone more familiar with sky charts could have done it. The constellations helped me align the sky on Stellarium (from their angles) and the north star helped me find the approximate latitude by using the angle from the horizon.
- NotYourLawyer 4y agoOk that makes more sense.
- mberning 4y agoI wonder how long this thing has existed. Or if it is even “current gen”. The existence of the f117 and b2 were not acknowledged for a long time.
- gateorade 4y agoThe existence of the b2 was always acknowledged from early in its development, just like the b21 was. The primary purpose for strategic bombers like the b21 and the b2 is deterrence, and deterrence doesn’t really work if it isn’t known about. The f117 on the other hand was a tactical aircraft that was built in anticipation of a sudden need to precisely strike a very specific target no matter how well defended. For that purpose it needed to remain unacknowledged. It was also the first stealth aircraft and presented a larger leap from existing aircraft than the b-2 did at the time.
- mgarfias 4y agoI mean, cool and all. But I didnt have to do that to know where it was. I stood outside that hanger (with a B-2 inside) in 1989 at Northrop's 50th anniversary airshow. If I can remember that, from 30+ years ago, I'm pretty sure the russians/chinese/whateverese also know.
- paxys 4y agoThe investigation breaks down halfway when you have to pull up a public list of airbase locations and google where certain jets are made.
- supernova87a 4y agoHe seems to use the hour estimate of 1:30am being a time when very few satellites are likely overhead as a sort of confirming factor. (I guess because many satellites are sun-synchronous around noon, and the USAF would purposely time the photo to not expose the aircraft to observation). But is that a very strong confirming factor? Is it likely that NG / USAF would be actively avoiding the potential for satellite imagery? Does it mean all the time it was being built, they avoided having it outside during the daytime?
- Johnny555 4y agoDoes it mean all the time it was being built, they avoided having it outside during the daytime Aren't airplanes built entirely in a hangar? Especially secret ones?
- sophacles 4y agoDepends on how you scope the word "build". If you mean literal assembly, of course. If you mean "the process of iterating engineering, testing and assembly" including prototyping etc (a common way to use the word build, especially in software circles) it makes more sense.
- 0xCMP 4y agoI forget where, but there was a video I was watching that claimed the US was so far ahead in tech that instead of letting others know our capabilities we play with other countries by "accidentally" leaving things open to satellites which makes other countries trying to copy us go nuts trying to reverse engineer nonsense. That comment was after mentioning how the "super sonic" plane built for the latest Top Gun was probably left out, on purpose, so it'd confuse adversaries on what the US is actually working on.
- Ferrotin 4y agoHistorically, yes, they’ve scheduled outdoor activity to avoid satellite overflight, if we’re not misled by books. Maybe it’s not a strong factor here, because it was a few days before public announcement anyway. But you’d expect them to follow the same protocol or at least pick a more convenient time than 1:30am if they were not.
- asdff 4y agoYet another twitter thread that could have made an excellent blog post.
- ant6n 4y agoYeah well the readers killed blogs, not the writers.
- Vitaly_C 4y agoOr we could save all that effort and just check the Wikipedia page... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force_Plant_42 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force_Plant_...
- jbverschoor 4y agoEnhance already!
- gmiller123456 4y agoThere's a few highly suspect details in the way the author got the 34-35 degree estimate. Maybe he was just really lucky and the errors cancelled out, but don't count on using his method to produce similar results. Polaris is about .8 degrees away from the celestial North pole, so using it alone can give a reading off by .8 degrees, and the orientation in the photo is actually nearing the worst case. The horizon doesn't appear in the photo. I have done celestial navigation strictly as a hobby for fun, and using a sextant without a visible horizon results in a few degrees of error at best. And that's with the benefit of the sensation of gravity helping you estimate. It is theoretically possible to estimate the horizon using the man made parallel horizontal lines in the image, but the author doesn't give any indication he did that. Additionally, the author used the angle measurement tool in Stellarium to measure the distance to another ambiguous horizon. This is incredibly odd, as just clicking on Polaris in Stellarium will tell you its elevation. But even more odd, is he would have had to explicitly set his latitude in the app in order to get that screenshot.
- microsoftdoes 4y agoInteresting. So do you think the author had inside information on the location?
- gmiller123456 4y agoI'm not going to speculate on what someone did or didn't know, let's give him the benefit of the doubt and just say he was really lucky. My main point was just don't expect similar results if you try it yourself.
- samstave 4y agoYeah, but when did he know it? (god i hope you get this joke)
- timoteostewart 4y agoWhat’s more, there’s an 18-minute gap on the tape!
- Guthur 4y agoThis is quite the boondoggle, not a lot of change out of billion dollars per aircraft, remember that as you work yourself to death. "Stealth" has such a limited life span of utility. Even in the 90s Serbian air defence managed to acquire and shoot down "stealth" aircraft. It required humint but that's part of a real theatre of war.
- gateorade 4y agoThis is objectively false though. We could take a deep dive into the relevance of the Serbian shoot down but it’s kind of irrelevant. The fact of the matter is, stealth technology means that an aircraft needs to be significantly closer to a radar for it to be detected compared to a normal aircraft. That also means it has to be closer still for a threat radar to develop a weapons quality track. Theres not really any known radar technology that can mitigate this, it’s basic physics. It’s much easier to see an object on radar that returns orders of magnitude more energy to the radar. Stealth does not a limited utility. In fact it’s rapidly going to become an absolute bare minimum for any tactical aircraft.
- Guthur 4y agoSo in the next 10-20 years we wont have any significant advances in detection technology or methodologies? Even if, for arguments sake, the aircraft is at the moment leaps and bounds ahead of the nearest peer competitor military there is going to be limit to how effective a new coat of paint will be for the B-21 in 10 years time. To get your monies worth from this thing you'd want a lot greater effective service life than that and without stealth the B-21 would have dramatically diminished it's dollar to effectiveness ratio.
- pohl 4y agoEven just 20 years of strategic deterrence is probably worth the price tag.
- j4ah4n 4y agoSky obfuscation to avoid stellar triangulation as a service?
- 14 4y agoThis is fun to see. Reminds me of the capture the flag done on Shia LaBeouf’s Trump protest flag that 4chan got together to figure out it’s hidden location and stole his flag and replaced it with a Trump hat. https://www.news.com.au/entertainment/celebrity-life/celebrities-gone-bad/trolls-do-cialevel-research-to-ruin-shia-labeoufs-trump-protest/news-story/87ea1fe5e172eae037f7c567e4542c89 https://www.news.com.au/entertainment/celebrity-life/celebri...
- bunabhucan 4y agoThe flock and skysat orbits he showed are for san francisco based planet labs satellites, the vast bulk of which are in sun synchronous orbits to always take photos in daylight. The screenshots amount to "it's dark at 1:30am."
- partiallypro 4y agoOne of my favorite internet happenings is when 4Chan (I think it was 4Chan) used stars and airplane data to get Shia LaBeouf's flag location and steal it. Not because of the political message, but because it was just entertaining and impressive in general. I think it ended up being in Tennessee somewhere. In any case, this wasn't exactly a secret, journalists were invited (though they had their cellphones confiscated at the gate, apparently.) If they really wanted, they could use obfuscation to make the sky, etc unrecognizable or in a totally different location.
- sumtechguy 4y agoThat went on for a few months. I think he ended up sticking it on a blank wall in an airbnb. They still figured it out. Because he decided to go out and have a few drinks. Also because info is wildly leaky. It is interesting how leaky info is and how little it takes to narrow it down. Advertisers use that non intuitive fact to do browser fingerprinting.
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- pash 4y agoNorthrop Grumman announced in September that they would unveil the B-21 at Palmdale this week [0]. The location was not a secret. 0. https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2022/09/20/2519651/189/en/Northrop-Grumman-to-Unveil-the-B-21-Raider.html https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2022/09/20/251965...
- wutwutwutwut 4y agoTwitter thread said the same thing, or am I missing something?
- IshKebab 4y agoIt said it at the end after tacitly implying otherwise.
- pbronez 4y agoHahaha this is a neat bit of investigation but my favorite part is that the final conclusion is that the sexy new bomber is hiding……… at the Air Force base where they held the press conference announcing the new bomber!
- anovikov 4y agoIn fact, knowing the moment photo was taken from EXIF, there was no need to "plot the line". They could point the exact location by using orientation of the stars - stellar time (assuming the horizon is level which, in the airfield, is a very very good assumption to make). Procedure is as follows: Right ascension of the culminating star ("celestial longitude", taken from the star catalog/star map, of any star which is right above the celestial pole/"Polar star"), is the stellar time. Knowing date (from EXIF), you get local solar time (which is equal to the stellar time on the spring solstice day, then makes a 24 hour loop over the year). Difference between local time found this way and UTC time (taken from EXIF), gives longitude, because the Earth is round. If EXIF does not contain the time zone, that gives 3 points in the U.S., one for each time zone, but it must be super easy to pick one. But most probably, EXIF contains the time zone.
- reportgunner 4y agoWhy would anyone hang a B-21?
- tempodox 4y agoNit: It's “hangar”, not “hanger”.
- jwally 4y agoThis is the EXACT reason the government is never dispels alien sightings with "oh, that was us, not aliens! lol". If you say tic-tac was lens-flare, the Chinese govt will figure out how to obsolete the F22 targeting system in a week :-) Hyperbole for sure but amazing how much info you can get from seemingly innocent data leaks. Loose lips sink ships...
- libaznezba 4y agoIs there any software library that can find approximate gps location of photo just from knowing the date & time of the image and knowing the horizon? I saw somewhere that bombers in 2nd world war were using stars for navigation.
- immmmmm 4y agofinally a plane that can bomb climate change away.