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The Peking Duck Exemption
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- denimnerd42 4y agoThe food safety in general from my Chinese in-laws gives me panic attacks. Mostly related to meat. But they also don't do dumb things like we do such as eating raw cilantro from Mexico.
- athenot 4y agoWhat's wrong with raw cilantro from Mexico? Geniune question.
- bitxbitxbitcoin 4y agoRaw cilantro in Mexico may have been washed with raw water from Mexico.
- ghaff 4y agoI'm going to rinse it but raw (as in uncooked) cilantro is omnipresent in Mexican and Thai cooking in particular.
- denimnerd42 4y agothe reason is cilantro is difficult to wash.
- vehemenz 4y agoIt goes both ways. Americans are way too casual with lunchmeat and prepping raw meat and vegetables on the same surfaces.
- CoastalCoder 4y agoI'm curious why you consider this an American thing. I'm American, and I'm pretty careful about those details.
- bombcar 4y agoIsn't the key the 350° F for 60 minutes afterwards? Doesn't an internal temperature of 160° F kill everything except some weird toxins? I suspect that most meat left overnight at room temperature and then cooked "well done" would be perfectly fine.
- gspencley 4y ago> Doesn't an internal temperature of 160° F kill everything except some weird toxins? It's worth noting that food safety is not limited to living micro-organisms but includes everything from physical objects (choking on a chicken bone) to the bi-products of micro-organisms (such as alcohol or the toxin that causes botulism). Although bacteria produces the botulism toxin, the toxin itself can't be rid of afterwards through temperature.
- Xamayon 4y agoIn the case of botulism toxin, it's actually the opposite. The spores are extremely resistant to temperature, but the toxin can be destroyed by boiling at normal temp/pressure until all parts have been fully exposed to those temps. Other toxins are still an issue though, and many are heat resistant, so not a good idea to eat potentially contaminated foods.
- thfuran 4y agoBotulinum toxin is even less heat resistant than that. Five minutes at 185 F will take care of it. Though boiling would certainly get the job done.
- gspencley 4y agoAh thanks! It's been a few years since I took a food handling safety course and I remembered Clostridium botulinum being called out as something that "heat won't kill" but you're right, it's the spores, not the toxin itself. But yeah, as you also pointed out, bi-products that can cause illness are separate issues from "killing living organisms that cause illness", and heat is not always the magic solution. Heavy metal poisoning is another example of something that heat will not take care of.
- Mikeb85 4y agoHung at room temperature overnight? Nah, it's typically hung in a refrigerated and ventilated cooler (before it's cooked)... Never seen a recipe that says it should be hung at room temperature. Whole article is based on a strawman. Edit: Even the "evidence" of healthcode violations used in the article is of hanging the COOKED duck in the window, not the raw duck. Restaurants (yes, even Chinese ones) use a cooler to hang the raw duck because the ambient temperature is way too hot.
- ribs 4y agoWhen I first tried making it in...1994, I believe, the instructions I had from cookbooks didn't say anything about refrigeration. Looking briefly on the internet right now, I see a mixture. What I know for sure is that I hung it from a fixture on my ceiling. I wish I could remember exactly what I thought of this at the time. (It came out great BTW)
- Eleison23 4y ago
- ioblomov 4y agoReminds me of an article I came across once about artisanal French cheese. The gist was that the French would much rather risk potential illness from raw-milk cheese than give up the pleasure of eating it. Growing up in an immigrant family and having lived in Spain a spell, I've come to realize Americans are much too paranoid when it comes to food safety.
- caycep 4y agoand yet despite his alarm at aging ducks the author also has multiple articles on fermented foods on his site...
- thaumasiotes 4y agoFermentation specifically sterilizes the food. That's what alcohol does. It's analogous to the process of cooking the duck, not the process of hanging it out overnight.
- justincormack 4y agoIts not related to alcohol. Fermentation is mainly about producing acidity that stops harmful bacteria growing (also in the absence of oxygen, plus salted).
- Mikeb85 4y agoRaw milk cheese is safe after a certain age since the good bacteria eliminate the bad bacteria.
- DebtDeflation 4y agoWait until the author finds out how prosciutto is made. You take the (raw) hind leg of a pig, cover it in salt, and hang it in a cool dry place for 9 months to two years. Then you take it down, scrape off all the mold, slice it thinly, and enjoy its deliciousness. That's right, prosciutto is raw pork that was left unrefrigerated for months or years until covered in mold.
- TheRealPomax 4y agoRight, so: you take the kind of raw meat that is so thick that any contaminants you might get during carving is surface contamination, then cover it in a substance that kills any bacteria or molds that it comes into contact with, making sure to use enough salt to prevent subsequent contamination for as long as it takes for the surface to dry and form an impenetrable layer, and then we let it age for however long we like because it is now physically impossible for surface contaminants to make it into the meat anymore. Which is completely different from leaving wet meat to just hang out at room temperature for many hours.
- ethbr0 4y agoAlso, obligatory step with most of these things: smell it. If it smells bad, throw that example out. We survived for a few hundred thousand years without an ability to see or quantify microbiology. Our noses are pretty damn effective.
- mumblemumble 4y agoThat "we" in "we survived" is doing an awful lot of work. "We" also survived many rounds of bubonic plague and suchlike. Those who didn't, though, presumably don't get to count themselves among that "we". For the purposes of these kinds of conversations, I think I might prefer some sober estimates of costs and benefits over platitudes.
- ethbr0 4y agoIf the goal is 0% mortality, then your life is going to suck. Personally, I prefer low-enough mortality and a life well-lived.
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- ectopod 4y agoThe science bit says it's safe because the seasoning inhibits microbial growth during the drying period, but the recipe at the top applies the seasoning after the drying period. Something doesn't add up.
- Ekaros 4y ago> 3. The duck is propped up, and boiling water is poured onto its skin until the skin tightens. This is also probably somewhat effective in killing some amount of pathogens at least on the outside. Not sure if same is done for cavity.
- hammock 4y agoWhat is perplexing about it? Most/all bacteria on the skin is sterilized by the boiling water. So the only growth on the bird during drying would come from additional bacteria introduced from the environment, which would be low levels, and then the bird is baked which would kill any of that off. There is very little risk of, e.g. botulinum toxins building up either as a result of this process. Seems safe if you understand food safety.
- Dylan16807 4y agoTwelve entire hours sounds like plenty of time for bacteria on the inside to grow.
- hammock 4y agoWhy would there be bacteria (of material concern) on the inside? Where would it come from? Beef is dry aged for 60 days at 40F and 75+% RH, and no one has concerns about a raw center of a dry aged steak. A half-day at 70F seems equivalent if not less severe
- ethbr0 4y agoThe animal's intestine. Which is why the cooking safety question is more of a question about how the animal was slaughtered and butchered. See comments above about how US meat safety concerns are usually a consequence of slaughtering and butchering in the most cost effective manner.
- hammock 4y agoI would think the intestinal bacteria would remain (by biological design) in the intestinal parts of the animal, at least for 12 hours. No data on this though. You may be right
- ethbr0 4y agoOh, I'd imagine they do! Until you rupture and/or submerge them, because it's cheaper to process birds that way.
- crumpled 4y agoKirishima Japan has a regional dish: Chicken Sashimi Personally, I'm not brave enough.
- brazzy 4y agoWait until you hear about Mett: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mett https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mett
- thinkingemote 4y agoI had some chicken sashimi in Japan. It was mildly seared on the outside, I guess to kill any bad germs but quite raw in most of it and quite tasty too. I had it in a large restaurant in Kyoto called "Bird"
- mlex 4y agoHad this once in Osaka, definitely had food poisoning the next few days. I mostly blame myself for thinking it would be a good idea. It did taste pretty good though.
- onethought 4y agoNitpick: Peking is not a romanisation, it’s the Cantonese word for Beijing butchered by English accent. Likely relating to many early interactions with China occurring in the Guangdong region.
- msla 4y ago> Peking is not a romanisation Yes, it is. A romanization is spelling a word in the Latin alphabet when the people who use that language as their first language use a different writing system.
- onethought 4y agoThat would be: bak1 ging1 if we are talking Cantonese. Peking is the English word for that romanisation.
- msla 4y agoA romanization is still a romanization even if it doesn't follow an accepted standard.
- onethought 4y agoBut Peking is a translation of a Portuguese “romanisation” (by your standard)… Is chopstick a romanisation?
- thealistra 4y agoIn polish Beijing is just Pekin after all those years. So I am confused why it desynced in english
- bjterry 4y agoNo one in this thread (nor in the article) has made the obvious observation that this means there are a massive variety of genuinely safe foods that could be made via currently banned practices. You can only get an exception at great cost for foods with existing cultural practice. Some real innovations, like the initial invention of the Peking duck, are basically prohibited.
- gernb 4y agoI thought this was going to be about the fact that the traditional way of step 2 > 2. Air is pumped into the crevice between the duck’s skin and meat, allowing the skin to balloon and separate from the meat. Is to blow the duck up like a balloon with your mouth https://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/687850/Saturday-Kitchen-viewers-turn-off-chef-blowing-raw-duck-China-Beijing-Ken-Hom-BBC1 https://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/687850/Saturday-K... PS: it doesn't turn me off in the least and I find many food safety rules to be ludicrous, protectionism, and counter productive. For example: I find that the requirement to wear gloves while preparing food that I see people touching things they would be less likely to touch with their bare hands, touching, and then continuing to prepare the foods. For me, without gloves I can tell when my hands are dirty and wash them but when gloves I feel nothing and am therefore less likely to wash. Have no proof that this is true for everyone but I'm fairly confident that if I had hidden cameras looking for violations I'd find more for people using gloves than not. Also in a similar vain there's sushi https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/08/22/national/gloves-come-off-again-for-sushi-chefs-in-california/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/08/22/national/gloves... There are plenty of other bad food regs https://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2015/11/americans-refrigerate-eggs-countries-dont/ https://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2015/11/americans-r... https://www.foodandwine.com/lifestyle/why-americans-dont-get-eat-delicious-raw-milk-cheese https://www.foodandwine.com/lifestyle/why-americans-dont-get...
- kazinator 4y ago> The duck is glazed multiple times inside and out with a syrup made from soy sauce, five-spice powder, and other ingredients. Chinese five-spice is useful; I've used it as a short-cut in curry. Coriander, turmeric, fenugreek and five-spice.