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iPhone made in China is no better than the cotton from Xinjiang. Earlier the reports are workers in the China iPhone factory had a protest and brutal conflict

iPhone made in China is no better than the cotton from Xinjiang. Earlier the reports are workers in the China iPhone factory had a protest and brutal conflict with the local police. Reasons varied from unbearable working condition, the zero-covid policy, and being deceived about the compensation. After the local police oppressed the campaign, the government assigned headcounts to local villages, demanding them to fill in the factory slots. No wonder Apple loves China so much. Apple and many westerners never understand the risk and the ethics implication of doing business in China. Apple has utilized the cheap labor at a level where can never be possible in the civilized world, as well as making great profit out of the upper class of China, who directly benefits from the oppression system of CCP or part of the party themselves. It turns out that in spite of all values that Apple promotes, it actually cares about nothing but the profit and its comfortable zone in China. And I will not be surprised Apple will cease the plan in India as soon as China steps back from the zero-covid policy, as if all the blood has not been spilled.

alephnan 4y ago
> Apple and many westerners never understand the risk and the ethics implication of doing business in X For clothing, people can check the label. Most consumers simply don’t care enough when fast fashion is cheaper and more convenient than “ethical brands”
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  Sonetimes you go buy an ethical brabd, and then turbs out ut was from thevsame factoemry. Mahor brands like Nestle havecslavery in the supply chain, without chiba being involved
  - mantas 4y ago
    For Nestle, supply chain is the least evil thing. Hard to beat their baby formulas marketing Fuck Nestle.
- amelius 4y ago
  People never see the harm done so they are basically ignorant. Most people wouldn't eat meat if they had to kill an animal either.
  - rolisz 4y ago
    Plenty of people live on farms and grow animals, kill them and then eat them. I haven't killed one myself, but I have been at pig butchering "parties" at my grandparents or uncles and saw how the sausage is made. Still tastes yummy.
    - amelius 4y ago
      I bet if you ask city people to either kill an animal or grab a shrink-wrapped package containing a vegetarian meat substitute, by far the majority would choose the latter.
      - Karunamon 4y ago
        … For a meal or 2, and then they're just as likely to grab the knife after realizing how nasty those meat substitutes taste compared to the real thing.
      - tyingq 4y ago
        I would guess a fair amount of city dwellers have gone fishing.
      - Sebb767 4y ago
        But you're also comparing apples to oranges. I would take the shrink-wrapped thing to, just because I have neither the means nor the skill to slaughter (or store) an animal. Offer people to either get a crate of raw soy or kill an animal, then we are at a comparable level.
        amelius 4y ago
        Ok, if it was not clear, add: ... under comparable circumstances.
sgu999 4y ago
> Apple and many westerners never understand the risk and the ethics implication of doing business in China. Apple industrial partners are all asians. Samsung and the like don't do any better regarding ethics. Not sure why the divide with the "ignorant west" is necessary in your argument. Of course people at Apple understand the risk, and it is taken into account to generate as much profit as possible.
- ekianjo 4y ago
  lets not compare South Korea and China please...
  - sgu999 4y ago
    I was comparing Apple to Samsung. But OK.
- mschuster91 4y ago
  > Apple industrial partners are all asians. Samsung and the like don't do any better regarding ethics. You can rightfully complain about labor practices in other Asian countries, but forced labor from concentration camps is a uniquely Chinese atrocity.
  - luckylion 4y ago
    And one that's usually not done by Apple or Samsung, but by contract-manufacturers like Foxconn. Both Apple and Samsung use Foxconn. The "iphone factories" aren't Apple-factories, they're Foxconn factories which currently produce iphones but will produce Samsung galaxy phones if iphone production moves. It's a "companies use Chinese as-close-to-slave-labor-as-you-can-get-without-being-called-out-labor" thing, not a "naive Western company finds out how things work in China" thing.
  - Markoff 4y ago
    I think you should read up more in Asia if you think slave labor is unique to China, you can start with Thai fishing industry. Btw not that it would be case with Apple, these are Taiwanese companies with factories in China, so maybe instead blaming China blame the Taiwan, but I understand it's not trendy. Oh and let's not forget "democratic" Vietnam with communist gov censoring internet and imprisoning people for opinions, where did I see that? And don't get me started on biggest "democracy" where you still have caste system which is mutually exclusive with democracy. Lived in China and visited all these for extended periods and it's very naive to think Vietnam or India are some step ups conscience wise.
cpursley 4y ago
I basically agree with you on all points. But can we please drop this "civilized world" term? I suggest "democratic world".
- amelius 4y ago
  If you agree with all the points, then civilized seems apt.
  - cpursley 4y ago
    You can be "civilized" and an autocracy. Certain aspects of modern China makes the West look like a backwater. Hell, even Russia has less people in prison than the US and free heath care. Also, that phrase just reeks of imperialism, racism and superiority - just a modern version of "savages who need our one true religion". OPs argument is about democracy, not level of development and culture. For clarity: I'm anti-autocracy
    - bigDinosaur 4y ago
      What aspect of China makes the West look like a 'backwater'? I literally cannot think of a single thing. That doesn't mean China has no positive aspects. The West is also not monolithic.
      - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
        > What aspect of China makes the West look like a 'backwater'? Compare China homicide rates to USA. Or China incarceration rate to USA incarceration rate.
        lpcvoid 4y ago
        I have not done any research on this and am genuinely interested - why can I trust the numbers the CCP releases on incarceration rate?
throwawaaay129 4y ago
I don't know where people get the idea people are semi-enslaved in factories.. Having lived in China, in my second hand experience Chinese worker protection laws are quite strict. Somewhere between US and Europe. It's not really easy to fire people and people regularly sue their employers and win. The legal system is generally very heavily biased towards the little guy I just feel really bad for these people. They probably left some country side life making peanuts to go make some real money for a while at a factory and like send their kids to college or whatever - and now westerners are like "no, you shouldn't do that. go back to your bucolic life of poverty. And btw we hate your government". Cool From the initial reports it sounds like Foxxcon really royally screwed up and was not prepared logistically for a lockdown. https://www.bbc.com/news/business-63739562 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-63739562 Another big part of this whole fiasco seems to have been conspiracy-theory style rumors and just a general freakout of the workers (which is kinda understandable given how policies are opaque and feel arbitrary) https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-63481793 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-63481793 "This young factory worker heard that the army was going to come in and take control so as to enforce a type of giant "living with Covid" experiment which involved allowing everyone in that part of Zhengzhou city to get sick." In my experience.. even talking to educated middle class people.. these kinds of things are super common - even with all the social media controls. People believe all sorts of insane things b/c their sister's husband's cousin is in the army and told them blah blah. If in the US a double digit percentage of people believe that 9/11 was inside job - in the developing world the numbers are way scarier. It sounds like there was mass panic (again, kinda understandable given the mushroom management that's so common in Asia)
- philliphaydon 4y ago
  > Chinese worker protection laws are quite strict. The fact 996 is illegal and still practiced and complained about and censored… makes any existence of protection laws being strict null and void.
  - DocTomoe 4y ago
    Who can honestly say they did not ever flaunt worktime laws (where they exist)? IT people do 60-80 hours, in the liberal-democratic country where there is a strict limit of 48 hours/week (and the average being around 39h). People wear that as a misplaced badge of honour - and often complain behind closed doors. Sounds similar.
ls15 4y ago
> And I will not be surprised Apple will cease the plan in India as soon as China steps back from the zero-covid policy, as if all the blood has not been spilled. I doubt it. The disadvantages of being dependant on a single source are well-understood in 2022.
- usrnm 4y ago
  They were understood just as well 50 years ago, the problem is, all these disadvantages are long term. Short term profits always win
  - yarky 4y ago
    Well understood? I doubt many organizations had a pandemic SOP/DRP before 2020.
    - runamok 4y ago
      There's no reason more should not have had one. Here are CDC notes about SARS from 2004. https://www.cdc.gov/sars/clinical/preparedness.html https://www.cdc.gov/sars/clinical/preparedness.html
  - abrouwers 4y ago
    I disagree, for long term sourcing. It takes awhile to get relationships, supply chain, etc. established.
    - TrapLord_Rhodo 4y ago
      Not OP, but the way i read their comment is the problems only become apparent in the long term. When you do a cost to benefit analysis on china it always sounds great. Yeah, you have to deal with a couple minor PR blunders since you are hiring slave labor, 2-3 weeks ARO boat time kinda sucks but they are fair trade offs for World class manufacturing for half the cost, and obscene payment terms since the CCP is involved in the deal making (120 days Payment terms on each milestone for CapEx is normal in china). Only do you realise that you are manufacturing in a entirely foreign regime and that regime can do whatever it wants do you realise it's a problem. You are at their whim from a import/ export tax, wars (trade, economic and real), etc. But all the benefits are real and easy to quanitify. The negatives are ethical and imagined until they are not.
anovikov 4y ago
Truth is, there is no way to profitably produce any durable consumer products without dealing with someone who treats workers like trash, simply because everyone else is also doing this. Of course, we have a choice of them being Commies (China), or not being Commies (India), but that's about it. Only way to fundamentally fix it will be to introduce a new Iron Curtain where we will "not trade with anyone we don't control", and that might work after a few frustrating years of high inflation and shortages, but will be too politically costly to try.
- sofixa 4y ago
  > Truth is, there is no way to profitably produce any durable consumer products without dealing with someone who treats workers like trash, simply because everyone else is also doing this In some cases that's true, but in the case of Apple - the one with higher cost "luxury" products, double digit percent profit margins, tens of billions of cash and trillion dollar market cap - it doesn't really make sense as an excuse.
  - ekianjo 4y ago
    Apple has grown to this size because they had a much better margin than its competitors in the first place. If they built everything in America they would have disappeared long ago.
- vouwfietsman 4y ago
  Calling China Commies is misplaced, its a self proclaimed communist state in the same way that North Korea is a self proclaimed democratic state. I think (not sure) China is mostly seen as "state-capitalist" by experts, which means a capitalist market with heavy state control & influence. To label China as communist is similar to labeling the US as a company: it's a misrepresentation of the truth and says more about the labeler than about the country itself.
powerapple 4y ago
Wrong. The protest is about compensation, the workers were promised to have 10k once they get pass the probation period, 3 months. They were let go before the 3 month probation finished, and they demand the payment. You don't just go around developing world and criticize people not eating organic food or anything. It is not right. I wish Chinese workers get paid the same amount as their western counterparts, the fact is that factories moved there because of they can pay less. Is it a bad thing? No, apparently we need dollars to import anything, so they are making less money in western standards, but at least they are making some money. Has fairtrade coffee made African countries as rich as Europe? it will never happen, forget about ethics, if you are taking away the financial base where people can make a living, you are taking away everything.
- enkid 4y ago
  Wait, are you saying because China isn't rich, workers shouldn't have rights? I'm legitimately asking, because when you boil down your argument, that's what it sounds like.
  - CyanBird 4y ago
    Flying geese companies move there exactly because Chinese workers can be abused nearly at will given that the focus of the government is (was) development at all costs Flying geese will always abuse their workers, that's what Apple is. Same with let's say Foxconn
  - powerapple 4y ago
    No, developing world DOES NOT have a choice, that's a fact. Unless you are sending money every day to developing world, taking their jobs away is basically murdering people. Maybe too much for soft westerns who didn't understand why people risking their lives and their kids' on a boat to Europe.
  - powerapple 4y ago
    Workers have rights. They have the rights to choose to work or not, they have the rights to feel happy about their salary and compensation or not. Things develop naturally. People want factory to move out of China not because they care about worker's right? If they care about the right, they would ask Apple to pay more instead of moving out of the country. Did I say workers shouldn't have rights? You cannot boil down my argument to a sentence does not make sense. Developing countries need to make tradeoffs. Work extra time so their next generation can live better. These things are not given, it is not like you are a great social activist and your country suddenly can improve economically as well. The world is under financial colonization, developing world is at the bottom because their influence is weak.
FollowingTheDao 4y ago
> Apple and many westerners never understand the risk and the ethics implication of doing business in China. That was a a great apology for colonial industrialism and how US companies exploit workers in other countries and just move on when they also decimate their culture. They know the risks. They do not care. They are on to the next "risk" where there will make another few billion.
akmittal 4y ago
> I will not be surprised Apple will cease the plan in India as soon as China steps back from the zero-covid policy, Companies are not stupid to invest billions just to get manufacturing for few months. If someone is making assembly plans they will be willing to use it for atleast 4-5 years
fmajid 4y ago
Wonderful news indeed, but it’s not out of any ethical concerns, but because XI Jinping’s draconian zero-Covid policy and incessant lockdowns have made the Chinese supply-chain unreliable, something Apple like all businesses hate (remember, Tim Cook became head of Apple because of his supply-chain management chops). Still, good to see the totalitarian tyrant Xi wrecking China just as his inspiration Mao did back in the day. Even if there is a new Deng to fix the damage after him, the world will not naively give China the same opportunities again.
- otikik 4y ago
  > good to see the totalitarian tyrant Xi wrecking China just as his inspiration Mao did back in the day This affects real people who just found themselves on this situation and have no power to change it. Gleefully calling the situation “good” is callous and insensitive.
  - pirate787 4y ago
    Yeah its also nothing like the horrors of Mao's Cultural Revolution and the mass starvation of the Great Leap Forward.
  - judge2020 4y ago
    Countries and their citizens will go through turmoil and strife regardless of how people halfway around the world react to it. Using this to show the inefficiencies of CCP management is just commentary on how China's dictatorship system hardly works when your entire cabinet/advisory board is full of yesmen.
  - safety1st 4y ago
    I didn't read the parent as approving of totalitarianism or the damage that arises from it. Unfortunately the memories of Western elites seem to be very short when it comes to Chinese atrocities. The silver lining to the very dark cloud of current events is that it's increasingly hard for them to ignore how evil the Chinese system and its rulers are. I was alive before we handed all our manufacturing capacity over to China and we got along just fine. I was alive while it was happening, too, and I remember it being sold to the public as the first step toward an inevitable transition to liberal democracy in China. All those lies are now completely unmasked. China lied, the MNCs lied, Western governments lied. Never forget all the lies we were told. Never forgive either.
jotm 4y ago
Doing well at the expense of some of the population, name a more draconian duo heh.
ksec 4y ago
>Apple and many westerners never understand the risk and the ethics implication of doing business in China. May be for many westerners, but not Apple. They knew exactly what they are doing. >It turns out that in spite of all values that Apple promotes, it actually cares about nothing but the profit and its comfortable zone in China. Which is the worst part of it all. Their insane hypocrisy. Now that Apple is only moving assembly out of China, but they are continuing their help and bring BOE ( Display ) , YMTC ( NAND ) and CXMT ( DRAM ) into their Supply Chain. Even long time partner for Battery like LG Chem are getting less order in flavour or another Chinese Partner. But Yes, again Apple wins the headline and PR because they are finally moving out of China. And even if this isn't even confirmed, or in the work. Vast majority of public will think everything is working in that direction or as if they have been done already.
- RC_ITR 4y ago
  Exactly. Tim Cook was the supply chain guy. He became CEO because he was the only one as maniacally focused as Jobs, as proven to Steve by his willingness to make a literal deal with the devil. The India plan will probably stick because Apple feels burned by zero covid and won’t keep themselves open to that kind of risk going forward.
  - wellthisisgreat 4y ago
    Wouldn't India be similarly volatile? To an extent, it is possible to compare any country to the phenomenon that is China. Isn't the current government run by a wannabe strongman (sorry, but I cannot bring myself to use the word "strong" in earnest next to that kind of politician) the type of administrator who has shown recently to do all kinds of random moves for the sake of posturing/self-imposed grandieur?
    - RC_ITR 4y ago
      Risk is what it is. What you want is uncorrelated risk (that way, you always have some capacity available.)
  - neycoda 4y ago
duxup 4y ago
> I will not be surprised Apple will cease the plan in India as soon as China steps back from the zero-covid policy It seems unlikely that zero Covid is the issue for Apple…
FabHK 4y ago
> iPhone made in China is no better than the cotton from Xinjiang. I think if you'll ask the suppressed people of Xinjiang, you'll find that they disagree. > It turns out that in spite of all values that Apple promotes, it actually cares about nothing but the profit How is Apple responsible for the Chinese Zero-COVID policy, and the actions of the Chinese police? Have you read Apple's extensive policies on Supply Chain standards and ethics? https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/ https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/ > Apple has utilized the cheap labor at a level where can never be possible in the civilized world, I'll just post this here from https://www.semafor.com/article/11/30/2022/apples-chinese-dream-is-over https://www.semafor.com/article/11/30/2022/apples-chinese-dr...: > China is also no longer cheap. Wages have skyrocketed, with the average factory worker making $6 per hour on average in 2020, up from less than a dollar in 2006. The average wage of a Chinese factory worker will very soon surpass the U.S. federal minimum wage. For comparison, the average rate for a Mexican factory worker has stayed stagnant at $2 per hour.
- ftyhbhyjnjk 4y ago
  I really hope Apple as a company dies asap. Fcking hypocrite company. One of the most morally bankrupt companies in the world. And please, take whiny little pussy xi jinping with themselves too... in the ground.
- alex_sf 4y ago
  > I think if you'll ask the suppressed people of Xinjiang, you'll find that they disagree. Are you suggesting that China's slaves would prefer that the global economy continuing exploiting them? > How is Apple responsible for the Chinese Zero-COVID policy, and the actions of the Chinese police? They are enriching the entity that designed the policies and directs the police. > Have you read Apple's extensive policies on Supply Chain standards and ethics? Yes. Have you read the extensive laws against murder? Does murder still happen? > China is also no longer cheap. Wages have skyrocketed, with the average factory worker making $6 per hour on average in 2020, up from less than a dollar in 2006. The average wage of a Chinese factory worker will very soon surpass the U.S. federal minimum wage. No, it won't. Chinese labor law is a joke. Nobody in these factories are actually working 44 hours.
jasonhansel 4y ago
While I have no praise for the CCP, India's current government is not without its problems: https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/11/04/modi-india-personality-cult-democracy/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/11/04/modi-india-personality-...
- Qtips87 4y ago
  India has never been a democracy in the sense that the Westerners understood it. India is also a fucking land grabber. It has land grabbed every single of its neighbors once the British left town. You never hear it in the West because it doesn't fit the narrative the West has on India.
  - wellthisisgreat 4y ago
    Could you please expand a bit on the land-grabbing part? I would love to learn more.
    - Qtips87 4y ago
      https://blog.supplysideliberal.com/post/136236833245/expansionist-india https://blog.supplysideliberal.com/post/136236833245/expansi... You're welcome.
      - lenkite 4y ago
        Dear lord, so many absolute lies on that page that 5 min of basic, simple research will invalidate. I snorted at this: "An earlier example is India’s creation of the Tamil Tigers which plunged Sri Lanka into many years of civil war." That's like stating the US founded the Nazi party and ran the Schutzstaffel. Absolute rot.
    - Qtips87 4y ago
      I might add that India acquired a new territory dispute with Nepal just a few several years ago by unilaterally publishing a new map incorporating what used to be part of Nepal territory (according to India's old map) into India's new map. The action triggered a counteract by the Nepalese government when it published its own map. These newly acquired disputed territory is different than the old dispute of Kalapani. In that case India requested Nepal to grant India access to Kalapani to better monitor China's troop movement during the 1962 war with China because Kalapani is on a high ground. The problem is once India squatted on that land it never leave and is still squatting on Kalapani to this day.
georgeplusplus 4y ago
I feel the western general population shares responsibility. We all know whats going on and are told repeatedly but don't care or act.
dirtyid 4y ago
>iPhone made in China is no better than the cotton from Xinjiang. High quality hardware and cotton that lifts peasants out of poverty through heavy state coordination with proceeds reinvested to move up value chain. No better = equally good.
pstuart 4y ago
It seems like more robotics is called for, if only Apple had the money to invest in it...
golemiprague 4y ago
thefounder 4y ago
Sure, let's move some of that production to Vietnam because they are good communists!
ascotan 4y ago
Maybe but as long as there is a trade war between the US and China, China seems to be a bad place to make iphones. Apples contractors need to find another place to due business so they dont take a hit to their bottom lines.
neycoda 4y ago
Ethics get in the way of maximizing profits. We could have ethical treatment of workers with affordable phones while the rich stay rich, but we're afraid of that

alephnan 4y ago

> Apple and many westerners never understand the risk and the ethics implication of doing business in X For clothing, people can check the label. Most consumers simply don’t care enough when fast fashion is cheaper and more convenient than “ethical brands”

ClumsyPilot 4y ago
Sonetimes you go buy an ethical brabd, and then turbs out ut was from thevsame factoemry. Mahor brands like Nestle havecslavery in the supply chain, without chiba being involved
- mantas 4y ago
  For Nestle, supply chain is the least evil thing. Hard to beat their baby formulas marketing Fuck Nestle.
amelius 4y ago
People never see the harm done so they are basically ignorant. Most people wouldn't eat meat if they had to kill an animal either.
- rolisz 4y ago
  Plenty of people live on farms and grow animals, kill them and then eat them. I haven't killed one myself, but I have been at pig butchering "parties" at my grandparents or uncles and saw how the sausage is made. Still tastes yummy.
  - amelius 4y ago
    I bet if you ask city people to either kill an animal or grab a shrink-wrapped package containing a vegetarian meat substitute, by far the majority would choose the latter.
    - Karunamon 4y ago
      … For a meal or 2, and then they're just as likely to grab the knife after realizing how nasty those meat substitutes taste compared to the real thing.
    - tyingq 4y ago
      I would guess a fair amount of city dwellers have gone fishing.
    - Sebb767 4y ago
      But you're also comparing apples to oranges. I would take the shrink-wrapped thing to, just because I have neither the means nor the skill to slaughter (or store) an animal. Offer people to either get a crate of raw soy or kill an animal, then we are at a comparable level.
      - amelius 4y ago
        Ok, if it was not clear, add: ... under comparable circumstances.

sgu999 4y ago

> Apple and many westerners never understand the risk and the ethics implication of doing business in China. Apple industrial partners are all asians. Samsung and the like don't do any better regarding ethics. Not sure why the divide with the "ignorant west" is necessary in your argument. Of course people at Apple understand the risk, and it is taken into account to generate as much profit as possible.

ekianjo 4y ago
lets not compare South Korea and China please...
- sgu999 4y ago
  I was comparing Apple to Samsung. But OK.
mschuster91 4y ago
> Apple industrial partners are all asians. Samsung and the like don't do any better regarding ethics. You can rightfully complain about labor practices in other Asian countries, but forced labor from concentration camps is a uniquely Chinese atrocity.
- luckylion 4y ago
  And one that's usually not done by Apple or Samsung, but by contract-manufacturers like Foxconn. Both Apple and Samsung use Foxconn. The "iphone factories" aren't Apple-factories, they're Foxconn factories which currently produce iphones but will produce Samsung galaxy phones if iphone production moves. It's a "companies use Chinese as-close-to-slave-labor-as-you-can-get-without-being-called-out-labor" thing, not a "naive Western company finds out how things work in China" thing.
- Markoff 4y ago
  I think you should read up more in Asia if you think slave labor is unique to China, you can start with Thai fishing industry. Btw not that it would be case with Apple, these are Taiwanese companies with factories in China, so maybe instead blaming China blame the Taiwan, but I understand it's not trendy. Oh and let's not forget "democratic" Vietnam with communist gov censoring internet and imprisoning people for opinions, where did I see that? And don't get me started on biggest "democracy" where you still have caste system which is mutually exclusive with democracy. Lived in China and visited all these for extended periods and it's very naive to think Vietnam or India are some step ups conscience wise.

cpursley 4y ago

I basically agree with you on all points. But can we please drop this "civilized world" term? I suggest "democratic world".

amelius 4y ago
If you agree with all the points, then civilized seems apt.
- cpursley 4y ago
  You can be "civilized" and an autocracy. Certain aspects of modern China makes the West look like a backwater. Hell, even Russia has less people in prison than the US and free heath care. Also, that phrase just reeks of imperialism, racism and superiority - just a modern version of "savages who need our one true religion". OPs argument is about democracy, not level of development and culture. For clarity: I'm anti-autocracy
  - bigDinosaur 4y ago
    What aspect of China makes the West look like a 'backwater'? I literally cannot think of a single thing. That doesn't mean China has no positive aspects. The West is also not monolithic.
    - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
      > What aspect of China makes the West look like a 'backwater'? Compare China homicide rates to USA. Or China incarceration rate to USA incarceration rate.
      - lpcvoid 4y ago
        I have not done any research on this and am genuinely interested - why can I trust the numbers the CCP releases on incarceration rate?

throwawaaay129 4y ago

I don't know where people get the idea people are semi-enslaved in factories.. Having lived in China, in my second hand experience Chinese worker protection laws are quite strict. Somewhere between US and Europe. It's not really easy to fire people and people regularly sue their employers and win. The legal system is generally very heavily biased towards the little guy I just feel really bad for these people. They probably left some country side life making peanuts to go make some real money for a while at a factory and like send their kids to college or whatever - and now westerners are like "no, you shouldn't do that. go back to your bucolic life of poverty. And btw we hate your government". Cool From the initial reports it sounds like Foxxcon really royally screwed up and was not prepared logistically for a lockdown. https://www.bbc.com/news/business-63739562 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-63739562 Another big part of this whole fiasco seems to have been conspiracy-theory style rumors and just a general freakout of the workers (which is kinda understandable given how policies are opaque and feel arbitrary) https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-63481793 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-63481793 "This young factory worker heard that the army was going to come in and take control so as to enforce a type of giant "living with Covid" experiment which involved allowing everyone in that part of Zhengzhou city to get sick." In my experience.. even talking to educated middle class people.. these kinds of things are super common - even with all the social media controls. People believe all sorts of insane things b/c their sister's husband's cousin is in the army and told them blah blah. If in the US a double digit percentage of people believe that 9/11 was inside job - in the developing world the numbers are way scarier. It sounds like there was mass panic (again, kinda understandable given the mushroom management that's so common in Asia)

philliphaydon 4y ago
> Chinese worker protection laws are quite strict. The fact 996 is illegal and still practiced and complained about and censored… makes any existence of protection laws being strict null and void.
- DocTomoe 4y ago
  Who can honestly say they did not ever flaunt worktime laws (where they exist)? IT people do 60-80 hours, in the liberal-democratic country where there is a strict limit of 48 hours/week (and the average being around 39h). People wear that as a misplaced badge of honour - and often complain behind closed doors. Sounds similar.

ls15 4y ago

> And I will not be surprised Apple will cease the plan in India as soon as China steps back from the zero-covid policy, as if all the blood has not been spilled. I doubt it. The disadvantages of being dependant on a single source are well-understood in 2022.

usrnm 4y ago
They were understood just as well 50 years ago, the problem is, all these disadvantages are long term. Short term profits always win
- yarky 4y ago
  Well understood? I doubt many organizations had a pandemic SOP/DRP before 2020.
  - runamok 4y ago
    There's no reason more should not have had one. Here are CDC notes about SARS from 2004. https://www.cdc.gov/sars/clinical/preparedness.html https://www.cdc.gov/sars/clinical/preparedness.html
- abrouwers 4y ago
  I disagree, for long term sourcing. It takes awhile to get relationships, supply chain, etc. established.
  - TrapLord_Rhodo 4y ago
    Not OP, but the way i read their comment is the problems only become apparent in the long term. When you do a cost to benefit analysis on china it always sounds great. Yeah, you have to deal with a couple minor PR blunders since you are hiring slave labor, 2-3 weeks ARO boat time kinda sucks but they are fair trade offs for World class manufacturing for half the cost, and obscene payment terms since the CCP is involved in the deal making (120 days Payment terms on each milestone for CapEx is normal in china). Only do you realise that you are manufacturing in a entirely foreign regime and that regime can do whatever it wants do you realise it's a problem. You are at their whim from a import/ export tax, wars (trade, economic and real), etc. But all the benefits are real and easy to quanitify. The negatives are ethical and imagined until they are not.

anovikov 4y ago

Truth is, there is no way to profitably produce any durable consumer products without dealing with someone who treats workers like trash, simply because everyone else is also doing this. Of course, we have a choice of them being Commies (China), or not being Commies (India), but that's about it. Only way to fundamentally fix it will be to introduce a new Iron Curtain where we will "not trade with anyone we don't control", and that might work after a few frustrating years of high inflation and shortages, but will be too politically costly to try.

sofixa 4y ago
> Truth is, there is no way to profitably produce any durable consumer products without dealing with someone who treats workers like trash, simply because everyone else is also doing this In some cases that's true, but in the case of Apple - the one with higher cost "luxury" products, double digit percent profit margins, tens of billions of cash and trillion dollar market cap - it doesn't really make sense as an excuse.
- ekianjo 4y ago
  Apple has grown to this size because they had a much better margin than its competitors in the first place. If they built everything in America they would have disappeared long ago.
vouwfietsman 4y ago
Calling China Commies is misplaced, its a self proclaimed communist state in the same way that North Korea is a self proclaimed democratic state. I think (not sure) China is mostly seen as "state-capitalist" by experts, which means a capitalist market with heavy state control & influence. To label China as communist is similar to labeling the US as a company: it's a misrepresentation of the truth and says more about the labeler than about the country itself.

powerapple 4y ago

Wrong. The protest is about compensation, the workers were promised to have 10k once they get pass the probation period, 3 months. They were let go before the 3 month probation finished, and they demand the payment. You don't just go around developing world and criticize people not eating organic food or anything. It is not right. I wish Chinese workers get paid the same amount as their western counterparts, the fact is that factories moved there because of they can pay less. Is it a bad thing? No, apparently we need dollars to import anything, so they are making less money in western standards, but at least they are making some money. Has fairtrade coffee made African countries as rich as Europe? it will never happen, forget about ethics, if you are taking away the financial base where people can make a living, you are taking away everything.

enkid 4y ago
Wait, are you saying because China isn't rich, workers shouldn't have rights? I'm legitimately asking, because when you boil down your argument, that's what it sounds like.
- CyanBird 4y ago
  Flying geese companies move there exactly because Chinese workers can be abused nearly at will given that the focus of the government is (was) development at all costs Flying geese will always abuse their workers, that's what Apple is. Same with let's say Foxconn
- powerapple 4y ago
  No, developing world DOES NOT have a choice, that's a fact. Unless you are sending money every day to developing world, taking their jobs away is basically murdering people. Maybe too much for soft westerns who didn't understand why people risking their lives and their kids' on a boat to Europe.
- powerapple 4y ago
  Workers have rights. They have the rights to choose to work or not, they have the rights to feel happy about their salary and compensation or not. Things develop naturally. People want factory to move out of China not because they care about worker's right? If they care about the right, they would ask Apple to pay more instead of moving out of the country. Did I say workers shouldn't have rights? You cannot boil down my argument to a sentence does not make sense. Developing countries need to make tradeoffs. Work extra time so their next generation can live better. These things are not given, it is not like you are a great social activist and your country suddenly can improve economically as well. The world is under financial colonization, developing world is at the bottom because their influence is weak.

FollowingTheDao 4y ago

> Apple and many westerners never understand the risk and the ethics implication of doing business in China. That was a a great apology for colonial industrialism and how US companies exploit workers in other countries and just move on when they also decimate their culture. They know the risks. They do not care. They are on to the next "risk" where there will make another few billion.

akmittal 4y ago

> I will not be surprised Apple will cease the plan in India as soon as China steps back from the zero-covid policy, Companies are not stupid to invest billions just to get manufacturing for few months. If someone is making assembly plans they will be willing to use it for atleast 4-5 years

fmajid 4y ago

Wonderful news indeed, but it’s not out of any ethical concerns, but because XI Jinping’s draconian zero-Covid policy and incessant lockdowns have made the Chinese supply-chain unreliable, something Apple like all businesses hate (remember, Tim Cook became head of Apple because of his supply-chain management chops). Still, good to see the totalitarian tyrant Xi wrecking China just as his inspiration Mao did back in the day. Even if there is a new Deng to fix the damage after him, the world will not naively give China the same opportunities again.

otikik 4y ago
> good to see the totalitarian tyrant Xi wrecking China just as his inspiration Mao did back in the day This affects real people who just found themselves on this situation and have no power to change it. Gleefully calling the situation “good” is callous and insensitive.
- pirate787 4y ago
  Yeah its also nothing like the horrors of Mao's Cultural Revolution and the mass starvation of the Great Leap Forward.
- judge2020 4y ago
  Countries and their citizens will go through turmoil and strife regardless of how people halfway around the world react to it. Using this to show the inefficiencies of CCP management is just commentary on how China's dictatorship system hardly works when your entire cabinet/advisory board is full of yesmen.
- safety1st 4y ago
  I didn't read the parent as approving of totalitarianism or the damage that arises from it. Unfortunately the memories of Western elites seem to be very short when it comes to Chinese atrocities. The silver lining to the very dark cloud of current events is that it's increasingly hard for them to ignore how evil the Chinese system and its rulers are. I was alive before we handed all our manufacturing capacity over to China and we got along just fine. I was alive while it was happening, too, and I remember it being sold to the public as the first step toward an inevitable transition to liberal democracy in China. All those lies are now completely unmasked. China lied, the MNCs lied, Western governments lied. Never forget all the lies we were told. Never forgive either.

jotm 4y ago

Doing well at the expense of some of the population, name a more draconian duo heh.

ksec 4y ago

>Apple and many westerners never understand the risk and the ethics implication of doing business in China. May be for many westerners, but not Apple. They knew exactly what they are doing. >It turns out that in spite of all values that Apple promotes, it actually cares about nothing but the profit and its comfortable zone in China. Which is the worst part of it all. Their insane hypocrisy. Now that Apple is only moving assembly out of China, but they are continuing their help and bring BOE ( Display ) , YMTC ( NAND ) and CXMT ( DRAM ) into their Supply Chain. Even long time partner for Battery like LG Chem are getting less order in flavour or another Chinese Partner. But Yes, again Apple wins the headline and PR because they are finally moving out of China. And even if this isn't even confirmed, or in the work. Vast majority of public will think everything is working in that direction or as if they have been done already.

RC_ITR 4y ago
Exactly. Tim Cook was the supply chain guy. He became CEO because he was the only one as maniacally focused as Jobs, as proven to Steve by his willingness to make a literal deal with the devil. The India plan will probably stick because Apple feels burned by zero covid and won’t keep themselves open to that kind of risk going forward.
- wellthisisgreat 4y ago
  Wouldn't India be similarly volatile? To an extent, it is possible to compare any country to the phenomenon that is China. Isn't the current government run by a wannabe strongman (sorry, but I cannot bring myself to use the word "strong" in earnest next to that kind of politician) the type of administrator who has shown recently to do all kinds of random moves for the sake of posturing/self-imposed grandieur?
  - RC_ITR 4y ago
    Risk is what it is. What you want is uncorrelated risk (that way, you always have some capacity available.)
- neycoda 4y ago

duxup 4y ago

> I will not be surprised Apple will cease the plan in India as soon as China steps back from the zero-covid policy It seems unlikely that zero Covid is the issue for Apple…

FabHK 4y ago

> iPhone made in China is no better than the cotton from Xinjiang. I think if you'll ask the suppressed people of Xinjiang, you'll find that they disagree. > It turns out that in spite of all values that Apple promotes, it actually cares about nothing but the profit How is Apple responsible for the Chinese Zero-COVID policy, and the actions of the Chinese police? Have you read Apple's extensive policies on Supply Chain standards and ethics? https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/ https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/ > Apple has utilized the cheap labor at a level where can never be possible in the civilized world, I'll just post this here from https://www.semafor.com/article/11/30/2022/apples-chinese-dream-is-over https://www.semafor.com/article/11/30/2022/apples-chinese-dr...: > China is also no longer cheap. Wages have skyrocketed, with the average factory worker making $6 per hour on average in 2020, up from less than a dollar in 2006. The average wage of a Chinese factory worker will very soon surpass the U.S. federal minimum wage. For comparison, the average rate for a Mexican factory worker has stayed stagnant at $2 per hour.

ftyhbhyjnjk 4y ago
I really hope Apple as a company dies asap. Fcking hypocrite company. One of the most morally bankrupt companies in the world. And please, take whiny little pussy xi jinping with themselves too... in the ground.
alex_sf 4y ago
> I think if you'll ask the suppressed people of Xinjiang, you'll find that they disagree. Are you suggesting that China's slaves would prefer that the global economy continuing exploiting them? > How is Apple responsible for the Chinese Zero-COVID policy, and the actions of the Chinese police? They are enriching the entity that designed the policies and directs the police. > Have you read Apple's extensive policies on Supply Chain standards and ethics? Yes. Have you read the extensive laws against murder? Does murder still happen? > China is also no longer cheap. Wages have skyrocketed, with the average factory worker making $6 per hour on average in 2020, up from less than a dollar in 2006. The average wage of a Chinese factory worker will very soon surpass the U.S. federal minimum wage. No, it won't. Chinese labor law is a joke. Nobody in these factories are actually working 44 hours.

jasonhansel 4y ago

While I have no praise for the CCP, India's current government is not without its problems: https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/11/04/modi-india-personality-cult-democracy/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/11/04/modi-india-personality-...

Qtips87 4y ago
India has never been a democracy in the sense that the Westerners understood it. India is also a fucking land grabber. It has land grabbed every single of its neighbors once the British left town. You never hear it in the West because it doesn't fit the narrative the West has on India.
- wellthisisgreat 4y ago
  Could you please expand a bit on the land-grabbing part? I would love to learn more.
  - Qtips87 4y ago
    https://blog.supplysideliberal.com/post/136236833245/expansionist-india https://blog.supplysideliberal.com/post/136236833245/expansi... You're welcome.
    - lenkite 4y ago
      Dear lord, so many absolute lies on that page that 5 min of basic, simple research will invalidate. I snorted at this: "An earlier example is India’s creation of the Tamil Tigers which plunged Sri Lanka into many years of civil war." That's like stating the US founded the Nazi party and ran the Schutzstaffel. Absolute rot.
  - Qtips87 4y ago
    I might add that India acquired a new territory dispute with Nepal just a few several years ago by unilaterally publishing a new map incorporating what used to be part of Nepal territory (according to India's old map) into India's new map. The action triggered a counteract by the Nepalese government when it published its own map. These newly acquired disputed territory is different than the old dispute of Kalapani. In that case India requested Nepal to grant India access to Kalapani to better monitor China's troop movement during the 1962 war with China because Kalapani is on a high ground. The problem is once India squatted on that land it never leave and is still squatting on Kalapani to this day.

georgeplusplus 4y ago

I feel the western general population shares responsibility. We all know whats going on and are told repeatedly but don't care or act.

dirtyid 4y ago

>iPhone made in China is no better than the cotton from Xinjiang. High quality hardware and cotton that lifts peasants out of poverty through heavy state coordination with proceeds reinvested to move up value chain. No better = equally good.

pstuart 4y ago

It seems like more robotics is called for, if only Apple had the money to invest in it...

golemiprague 4y ago

thefounder 4y ago

Sure, let's move some of that production to Vietnam because they are good communists!

ascotan 4y ago

Maybe but as long as there is a trade war between the US and China, China seems to be a bad place to make iphones. Apples contractors need to find another place to due business so they dont take a hit to their bottom lines.

neycoda 4y ago

Ethics get in the way of maximizing profits. We could have ethical treatment of workers with affordable phones while the rich stay rich, but we're afraid of that