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> Speaking of cutting costs, the company is still pouring multiple billions of dollars into vaporware called “the metaverse”. News flash: no one wants to wear V

• dnissley 4y ago
  > You can somehow feel that he has been dying to say this for years, but couldn't while he was still working for Meta... It's a pretty common sentiment in my experience here, de rigueur even. Expressing it in the way he does here is definitely frowned upon though -- one of the most interesting cultural traits I've noticed that Meta has fostered is an awareness and avoidance of cynicism. When people comment internally and there is even a hint of cynicism in what they say, they are frequently called out on it. Never seen such a thing ever before in my life. For me it's refreshing, but I imagine for some, depending on the topic and how negatively they feel about it, it could lead them to spiral and exit.
  • maxbond 4y ago
    You say "cynicism", I say "acknowledging nudity".
  • zwkrt 4y ago
    Too much cyncism in any person or organization will lead to gridlock and/or burnout as new ideas are immediately scrapped and morale tanks. Just ask anyone who has worked for 10+ years in government. However, for a private company that kind of critical thinking is often important to make sure that all the lemmings don't run off the cliff. It is interesting to me that cynicism is stifled at a cultural level at Meta. It is some kind of low-level cult like behavior, to stifle internal criticism. It must also breed a kind of in-group/out-group mentality, as I don't know a single person IRL who has a positive view of the company, its products, or the metaverse.
    • Karrot_Kream 4y ago
      I find too much cynicism off-putting. I'm at a Big Tech adjacent (or not depending) company and one reason (of many) I don't consider Google as a potential employer is because everyone I've met there is deeply cynical about the company. I've gone places in my life I never expected I'd end up in, my own brain is wired to filter out cynicism. If I had to deal with a company culture deeply cynical about everything they work on, I'd either become irascible or horribly depressed. People are different. Good thing we tech folks are well-compensated and are in fairly high demand.
      • leksak 4y ago
        Too much cynisism certainly sounds bad, but cynisism in and of itself shouldn't necessarily be problematic. Eskewing it entirely to always opt for optimism is inherently dishonest and does not acknowledge that sometimes having a negative response is fair and justified. And not allowing that as part of company culture is stifling. Do you think people's cynisism about Google has made you miss out on a positive opportunity or can their discontent have signaled actual organizational issues that'd have affected you in negatively?
        • Karrot_Kream 4y ago
          Some of this is quibbling about definitions in my head at least. Fundamentally I like working in environments where folks are optimistic but realistic, keenly aware of how effortless failure is. Discussing both failure and success should be allowed and encouraged, but constantly looking at the negative or opining about how an individual can't change anything in the organization doesn't feel healthy to me. Most Googlers I've talked to view the company as a large, corporate politics chess game where engineers are the pawns. > Do you think people's cynisism about Google has made you miss out on a positive opportunity or can their discontent have signaled actual organizational issues that'd have affected you in negatively? This is a really good question and I don't have a good answer for it. At this point my sample size is high enough that I'm inclined to think it's Google but I also realize my sample set has lots of correlating factors (they're more junior than me, they work in different areas than I would, etc, etc) that could lead to their cynicism that might not affect me.
  • jordwest 4y ago
    I've experienced this in a similar workplace before and did lead me to spiral and exit, to me it was absolutely exhausting keeping such a ruse up. There was something about it that felt so inauthentic, a bit toxic positivity, a bit hide-the-pain-harold. It's like the workplace version of Instagram itself, where everybody shows their best side, is mildly ashamed of feeling anything but positive because of the collective emphasis on "good vibes only" and keeps any concerns, cynicism or suggestions that we're going in the wrong direction under wraps. I think it's ultimately unhealthy (both individually, psychologically and to the company) and leads to the same problems you see in autocratic nations - the leaders only see everything going swimmingly.
    • chubot 4y ago
      So Facebook doesn't have something like memegen? I worked at Google when it was created and "went viral". Before memegen there was a strain of what I would call inauthentic positivity I think memegen made it a lot more acceptable to be cynical, which was probably good, because the company was definitely drinking a lot of its own Kool-aid
      • dnissley 4y ago
        Oh we definitely do -- the shitposting workplace group serves this purpose. Also the private nonmanagers group.
        • brazzledazzle 4y ago
          I think a private non-manager group is pretty neat. What happens when an IC gets promoted to manager? Do they get the boot from the group?
          • knodi123 4y ago
            Yeah, there's a ceremony where the manager puts a piece of paper with their username in a goblet and drops in a match, and then the non-managers all collectively intone "gone. gone. gone." and turn their backs. It's kind of sad, but the manager is allowed to keep their ceremonial robe as a memento, and there's usually a box of free cookies, so /shrug
  • eCa 4y ago
    > fostered is an awareness and avoidance of cynicism There’s a fine line between fostering avoidance of cynicism on one side, and fostering koolaiding and yes-manning on the other.
  • devwastaken 4y ago
    That's a form of thought policing. It's not cynical if it's a legitimate criticism. Ideas do not automatically deserve legitimacy, they must require reason first. The metaverse is not real, it's not going to happen. The numbers are not there. All of those users are in vrchat, and when Facebook buys it and turns it into a hell scape of a child playground the community will yet again go elsewhere.
  • simplotek 4y ago
    > When people comment internally and there is even a hint of cynicism in what they say, they are frequently called out on it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like whenever people presented valid criticism, the standard approach to silence it would be to criticise the tone with a holier-than-thou attitude. Sounds like a cynical ploy to shield yourself from criticism.
  • madrox 4y ago
    We're talking about cynicism and not criticism, correct? In my experience, cynicism is unproductive at best and anti-productive at worst. Criticism, of course, is valuable and healthy. Cynicism is a good and healthy thing to share with colleagues over a beer, but when you're on the clock will kill morale. Arguably dumping loads of money on a vaporware moonshot is also a morale killer, but sniping at it in meetings helps no one.
    • hobs 4y ago
      Excessive cynicism in the face of actual positive change is bad, however when you have no power to change something, you resort to cynicism. If your employees feel no power to express themselves over your bad decisions, you've built a truly toxic system.
      • projectazorian 4y ago
        The tone comes from the top. If criticizing the CEO’s strategy is prohibited as “cynicism,” then lower level leaders throughout the company will take that as license to prohibit criticism of their own ideas. And often that type of criticism is far more productive.
      • Aeolun 4y ago
        If people are cynical in the face of positive change then that’s only because they have experience with previous examples of ‘positive change’ that turned out to not be positive after all.
    • projectazorian 4y ago
      It’s easy for bad leaders to redefine legitimate criticism as cynicism. When I worked for a company with a similar culture I saw this happen all the time.
  • robotresearcher 4y ago
    I felt this way about the entire United States when I moved here from Europe. The standard stance in the UK is cynical, dry, and too-cool-for-school. Try-hards are despised. The US was different and very refreshing. Enthusiasm and optimism can be expressed without embarrassment, and having a too-frequently-cynical stance is looked down on. I felt a step change again moving from academia to industry, but perhaps it goes a step too far. Sometimes I feel like thoughtful analysis is suppressed in favor of active thrash, because the former smells like bad-valence skepticism and the latter approved optimism.
    • ljw1004 4y ago
      I felt exactly the same. Silicon valley attitude "woah dude that's awesome". UK fenland attitude "don't get your hopes up and know your place".
    • nivenkos 4y ago
      On the other hand, I found US engineers were way more likely to try to exaggerate their own work and push for promotion, etc. whereas the EU had more team solidarity. Like working with US engineers there was one who deliberately put meetings at bad hours (time zone difference), or would "accidentally" send the invite to your pager email instead, etc. to make others look bad.
    • nickd2001 4y ago
      I found similar going from UK to USA - can-do positive attitude, enthusiasm is appreciated. (This was private sector). This was 20 yrs ago though. Having returned to UK I think its got better here at least in tech. Also if you take a (slightly tempered, not in-ya-face) US attitude back to UK , in the right workplaces this goes down well because people actually like positive enthusiastic colleagues. In the UK it can be hard though getting managers to not see this as a threat. When I first returned the American pro-active attitude I think caused me to bomb an interview because I (innocently and tactfully at least I hoped ;) ) asked what reason they were using technology X and had they considered Y , which I think they took as a threat, someone who'd be insubordinate whereas in the US they'd more likely go "good question!" and be glad someone cared enough to ask (at least in my experience). I behaved the same the following week when interviewing at a startup and naturally, got that job. ;) Since then I think I adjusted to balance being pro-active with careful not to rock the political boat. American positivity has to be seen to be believed. ;). When in the US I was both impressed by people's ability to stay positive in the face of very difficult challenges, but slightly bemused by the amount of unfair s** people would silently put up with too e:g in customer service jobs. ;)
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  • ouid 4y ago
    >for me it's refreshing. blink twice if you need help?
    • dnissley 4y ago
      The kool-aid in the microkitchens is to die for :)
  • kelnos 4y ago
    I get that cynicism can be a negative thing, and can drag down people and groups. But I think there's a fine line between cynicism and (constructive) negative feedback. And I wonder if an anti-cynicism culture has the effect of silencing legitimate negative feedback as well.
  • vintermann 4y ago
    About cynicism vs. criticism, I'm reminded about something Scott Alexander recounted in his review of Red Plenty, an actual historical event: (Kantorovich) invented the technique of linear programming, a method of solving optimization problems perfectly suited to allocating resources throughout an economy. He immediately realized its potential and wrote a nice letter to Stalin politely suggesting that his current method of doing economics was wrong and he could do better - this during a time when everyone else in Russia was desperately trying to avoid having Stalin notice them because he tended to kill anyone he noticed. Luckily the letter was intercepted by a kindly mid-level official, who kept it away from Stalin and warehoused Kantorovich in a university somewhere. Cynicism can be warranted. Of course it's possible to be excessively cynical, but lack of cynicism can be downright deadly. Sometimes you are in situations where you can do little, and the best you can do is still pretty awful. And if you suppress the doubts that could make you cynical, more often than not someone else has to carry those doubts for you, to at least prevent the disasters that ARE preventable.
• MattGaiser 4y ago
  > no one wants to wear VR goggles I would be curious how many people are willing to wear VR goggles for any amount of time. I spend easily 10-12 hours a day at my computer. I am absolutely someone who is happy working, socializing, playing, and learning all at the same desk. But I can't wear those goggles for even 2 hours. Are there people who can wear them for 12?
  • b112 4y ago
    But I can't wear those goggles for even 2 hours. Are there people who can wear them for 12? As someone who has never seen or held a pair (I don't have a facebook account), what is the long term barrier? Weight? Size? Such as, if they were sunglass sized, would they be longer term wear? Or is it still the resolution/disconnected feeling/etc?
    • Gigachad 4y ago
      I have a HTC vive original and I actually had a lot of fun with it, but I don’t use it anymore because it takes up a lot of space and the experience is still kind of clunky/low res. For many people there is a physical discomfort side. From either the heavy device or motion sickness. I didn’t have much issue with this other than playing one time for most of the day and the weight on my face was a bit much.
    • TremendousJudge 4y ago
      For me personally, my eyes got very tired very fast, after an hour long session left me feeling as though I had been staring at a screen for 10 hours straight
    • NikolaNovak 4y ago
      I use Ocullus quest 2 to play (and LOVE it!). Weight, head and neck strain / tightness are the first issue. Nausea is the follow up. Eye strain is the final. I never use it for more than 30min at the time. I cannot imagine spending ANY work time in VR at this point in technology cycle, once you add resolution, accuracy, etc. I do not understand what problem it's solving - if you want to visually interact remotely, turn on your camera. If you don't, just talk and screenshare. I do not understand what virtual reality will add to my interactions and productivity.
• ericlippert 4y ago
  I see your point and don't mean to be argumentative, but a couple small corrections. First, the pivot to "meta" was just over a year ago, so it hasn't been quite years. Second, I haven't been shy about sharing my opinion internally, though I haven't been broadcasting it either. The first thing I said in our team group chat when we'd heard this announcement was (context, I am much older than most people on the team) "I'm old enough to have read Snow Crash the week it came out and IT WAS A DYSTOPIA, why are we building it?" Third, this opinion is indeed extremely common internally. Fourth, I genuinely have no idea how this decision was made; it was certainly not on the basis of net cost savings. We did the math.
  • SoftTalker 4y ago
    Maybe the decision was made based on who was sharing critical opinions internally.
  • kelnos 4y ago
    > Third, this opinion is indeed extremely common internally. It is intensely weird to me that people hold the opinion that their company is building something that is bad for the world, and yet they stay there and continue to help build it. I know that's easy to say as someone not in that situation, but not always easy to do for someone who is. I get that people don't always have a ton of choice about their employment; maybe they are afraid of losing their health insurance, maybe they are on a visa and can't easily switch jobs, or maybe they simply aren't able to find another job that works for them. Less noble, but maybe the pay is just too good, and if they stay for just a bit longer, it will be life changing. I can totally sympathize with that! But if this opinion is "extremely common", I would expect that a good number of those people would have the ability to leave, to the point that perhaps Zuckerberg would rethink his strategy. (I don't really buy the "change things from within" explanation; 1) that rarely works, especially in a company the size of Meta, and 2) if tried, that clearly has not worked, given Meta's continuing trajectory.)
    • version_five 4y ago
      "Big tech" - particularly facebook and google, I think are widely considered to be at worst actively evil and at best responsible for the race to the bottom in the internet experience and public discourse that's happened over the last 15 years. But they also appear to pay really well, have locally cool problems to work on, and have lots of work that has no relevance to destroying society, e.g. all the AI research they both do, which I don't think it's possible to overstate how important it's been for the growth of the field, in a very good way. So it's easy to see the dilemma in a sense. It's maybe really just a concentrated example of capitalism generally. All money has blood on it
• paganel 4y ago
  > but couldn't while he was still working for Meta... He still took the money, though. That was all I could think about while I was reading that paragraph.
  • bombcar 4y ago
    Pay me enough money and I'll work very hard trying to disprove the laws of thermodynamics. I'll tell you it can't be done, of course, but if you insist I'll work hard at trying to do it.
    • kelnos 4y ago
      Sure, but you trying to do that won't hurt anyone (well, aside from the bank account of the person paying you, but that's on them). Building a dystopian VR-based social network hurts a lot more people. I would hope we have better ethics than to work on things that harm others for truckloads of money. Then again, a lot of people still work for Meta (and Twitter, and...), so I guess ethics is pretty lacking.
      • fallingknife 4y ago
        How, exactly, does building a VR social network harm anyone?
        • dohdhdaa 4y ago
        • actionfromafar 4y ago
          You change the environment where people to some extent live their lives. Stripmalls never hurt anyone either by that token.
          • fallingknife 4y ago
            People change the environment themselves by choosing that over the alternative. If you don't like the thing that other people chose that's a fair opinion to have, but it's hard to argue that harm was caused by it.
• the_only_law 4y ago
  I never understood the VR hype. Sure it’s cool for games, and both AR and VR could have commercial uses, but people were talking to me like it was going to be the most significant computing revolution since smartphones and we would all be interacting with VR/AR user interfaces primarily in the near future. Then Meta comes and it seems like it’s just a ripped idea that’s been done multiple times + some buzzword tech and graphics that make Xbox player profiles look good. The idea that this was seemingly going to be some grand new flagship product for the company was laughable from the beginning.