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U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

275 points by lxm 4y ago

qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
if Earnings - Fine > 0: print("Cost of buisness is " + Fine) end
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  Called counting beans.
- nfriedly 4y ago
  In this case, it sounds like the airlines are paying the fine AND the refunds. > The department’s intervention contributed to the airlines’ issuing more than $600 million in refunds, it said. > ... > [United States Secretary of Transportation] Mr. Buttigieg said that, while the department was more focused on ensuring that refunds were paid than on collecting fines, he had nonetheless asked staff to look into whether the penalties were sufficient to prevent such behavior in the future. > “This really shouldn’t be happening in the first place,” he said. “And we’ll continue ratcheting up the penalty side until we’re seeing less of this kind of behavior to begin with.”
  - vxNsr 4y ago
    If you look more closely that’s not the case. If they pay the refunds, they get to subtract a portion of that from the fine. Dan has more detail and isn’t paywalled: https://www.dansdeals.com/more/news/airline-news/dot-issues-deceptive-press-release-detailing-fines-el-al-frontier-tap-airlines-deceptive-refund-practices/?t https://www.dansdeals.com/more/news/airline-news/dot-issues-...
    - nfriedly 4y ago
      It sounds like that's only the case for "good-will refunds" where the airline wasn't otherwise obligated to pay the refund. > Frontier said it had issued about $100 million in what it described as “good-will refunds” that were not legally required. The airline will pay only $1 million of the $2.2 million fine because the Transportation Department credited it for providing refunds to passengers who canceled nonrefundable tickets early in the pandemic. But, either way, the DOT's main focus is on getting people the refunds. I added a bit more context to my first message to clarify that, but also the fact that the fine is ~1% of the owed refunds makes it fairly clear IMO.
      - sidewndr46 4y ago
        Businesses never admit that they are legally required to pay a refund. It would constitute a public material statement and open the flood gates to more refunds. For a publicly traded company this would probably actually be some sort of SEC violation as well. I can't tell you the number of times I've gotten a "one time refund" from the same companies over and over. From the perspective of a business any refund issued is done in good will. Otherwise it isn't a refund.
    - invisible 4y ago
      Weird -- why not make the fine $604 million (or whatever they truly should owe in refunds) and allow all but, say, 4 million to be reduced?
      - 988747 4y ago
        That would create a weird dynamic: is it more beneficial to the airline to issue refunds to passengers, or is it better to give money directly to the DOT, which, as most government institutions, is probably underfunded and will appreciate the "donation"? Cost for the airline is the same if both cases, but indirectly funding DOT might win you some friends there :)
kqvamxurcagg 4y ago
What a bargain for the airlines. A 1% penalty and they probably saved at least 5% in financing costs.
- Hellion 4y ago
  When people see small fines like this, they assume it’s a slap on the wrist. And it is. Because the message is loud and clear: don’t make us pay attention to you and fix your shit.
  - Loughla 4y ago
    Counting to three only works if you're willing and able to do whatever the thing is you said you would do to the child when they are misbehaving. I think it's less that people see a slap on the wrist, and more that people see the systemic, wholesale capture and gutting of regulatory bodies and are not surprised that nothing substantive happens in this kind of case.
  - solardev 4y ago
    I think the message is more like "eh, we're on your side, but once in a while we gotta pretend to do something... just play along and wink, will ya?"
  - redanddead 4y ago
    And why are they not paying attention 99% of the other time? When people lose faith in institutions it's not because they're dumb. They understand things. And then to be gaslit into thinking "don't trust your eyes", you can see why some people are pretty angry nowadays.
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
  No, it was an inconvenience. They actually had to take off the cushion from the couch in the CEO's office, to get that money.
- nfriedly 4y ago
  To be fair, it does say that the penalties will ratchet up if the airlines don't correct their behavior.
ezfe 4y ago
When COVID caused a trip I had planned to be cancelled, I had flights with Iceland Air, TAP Air, Easyjet, and Brussels Airlines... - Iceland Air and Easyjet issued refunds quickly - Brussels took a few months, but communicated proactively that they were working on it and provided updates without me reaching out - TAP never picked up the phone and I ended up having to force a charge after every other airline had come through with a refund... Not surprised, lol
- personlurking 4y ago
  > TAP never picked up the phone and I ended up having to force a charge after every other airline had come through with a refund... Same happened to me. And I even called an additional time and only dealt with them in Portuguese hoping I might get somewhere with that tactic. Nope. Called, emailed, tweeted, you name it. No luck. Ryanair was pretty bad too. I spent a few weeks trying to book a short, direct flight between major cities and they kept cancelling the flights (3-4 in a row) and trying to give me credit. Their webchat helpline was quite poor, too.
  - fy20 4y ago
    I had a few flights cancelled with Ryanair too. Of course they make it hard to get a refund and suggest you take credit instead (which if it was valid for a long period I would have, but it expired after 1 year), however eventually they did give me a full refund.
- piskerpan 4y ago
  Loved EasyJet for that. I also had a buttload of flights planned for March/April 2020 and EasyJet was by far the easiest. I got a Trenitalia refund probably 18 months later and I had to PayPal-chargeback some OTA which eventually emailed me asking to reverse the chargeback. Sure. The OTA capitulated soon after.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
kaycebasques 4y ago
I am relieved to see that regulators appear aware of the game that Frontier seems to be playing. I flew to Denver recently and didn't need to travel heavy so I went with their cheap fare. The flight from SFO was fine. The flight from DEN to SFO was extremely frustrating. We arrived at DEN early because we got a text message warning us about major TSA delays. Literally the moment we were about to board Frontier changed the flight status to canceled. The plane was there, we saw it arrive and I didn't get the impression there was mechanical issues. It was one of those situations where I intuited that it was useless to try to get my money back and I should just vow to never fly with them again and give everyone a heads up not to use them (like I am doing here).
- mattwad 4y ago
  They are the scum of the universe. If you don't pay for your seats, they will separate you and your party even if there are available seats together, because they know you'll shell out cash to fix it. (I think American does this now too, and possibly others but I haven't confirmed they also do it when there's available seats).
  - gonehome 4y ago
    Isn't that their whole game? If you're going to fly them you should know it. They have the cheapest fares, but they do that by upselling everything and any mistake will be expensive. If that's worth it to you (and sometimes the cost difference is big enough for it to be worth it imo) then it can be a reasonable tradeoff. Flying an extreme lost cost airline that's entire existence is predicated on this model and expecting them to act contrary to that is confusing to me.
    - Benjammer 4y ago
      A large chunk of people think that every product should be certified as 100% effective and that just being able to read two numbers and see which one is the smaller number is the absolute maximum amount of work that should be required to be an informed customer of any product on the planet. Any defect in the product is "a scam," yet, anyone who pays anything more than the absolute minimum viable option is a total sucker. It's honestly a very strange way to view the world that I don't really understand. My source is that my mother is an ardent member of this group of peole. I find that it mostly just leads to the opportunity to complain about everything and build up a complex around you being "slighted" by the universe all the time.
aleyva 4y ago
About time
user3939382 4y ago
If I may comment on the abstract issue here... the experience of flying (US domestic) is a boiling frog situation. Flying used to be fun. 9-11 greatly accelerated the problems, but it had already been getting worse for decades as its popularity grew. Especially because I have long intervals when I don't fly, I absolutely dread the answer to my question, "What new, horrible treatment / experience / standards / fees / abuse will I be learning about this time?" Between the security, checking in, leg room, just everything. The airline's behavior from the post is just an example.
- brewdad 4y ago
  One advantage of being only 5'7" and my wife 5'2" is that by the time the shrinking legroom issues really become a problem for us, the plane will be mostly empty because normal sized people won't fit. There aren't many advantages to being at the left end of the bell curve but this is one I'll gladly take.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- hovden 4y ago
  Note, the most influential change to air travel in the US occurred following deregulation in 1978. This is a case study for many business schools and labor laws. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_deregulation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_deregulation
- maest 4y ago
  In the US, this trend largely started with the airline deregula act in 1978. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_deregulation#Post-deregulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_deregulation#Post-dere... It's been a constant trend towards a. cheaper flights b. worse quality flights.
JusticeJuice 4y ago
I spent $600 on a flight from London, to San Diego. There's a stopover in New York - but the connecting flight is delayed for six hours. At this point it's 10pm, but they get a plane, we board, we're actually taxing to the runway... and then the flight is canceled. Turns out it would arrive too late in San Diego for noise regulation. We all get off, I get another flight with a different company next thing in the morning. Few days later I hit them up for a refund on the canceled flight. They're happy to refund the NY to SD leg... to a tune of $24. Turns out their internal valuation of a $600 flight is $576 for the first 8h, then $24 for the last 6h. Lol. JetBlue man.
- pricechild 4y ago
  If you're "departing from an airport in the UK on any airline" then I'm pretty sure the legal minimum compensation is more than that: * https://www.caa.co.uk/passengers/resolving-travel-problems/delays-and-cancellations/delays/ https://www.caa.co.uk/passengers/resolving-travel-problems/d... * https://www.caa.co.uk/passengers/resolving-travel-problems/delays-and-cancellations/cancellations/ https://www.caa.co.uk/passengers/resolving-travel-problems/d... It sounds a bit confusing as to whether you were cancelled or delayed, or accepted an offer etc. but I wouldn't accept $24...
  - JusticeJuice 4y ago
    I was just so over it, I took the $24 and treated it as a lesson. I talked to a manager, but I couldn't be fucked doing more than that - I wasn't strapped for cash. If I was in my home turf, with a legal system I knew maybe I'd fight it more, but I was a tourist.
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > with a legal system I knew maybe I'd fight it more For future reference, Airhelp will fight it for you [1]. [1] https://www.airhelp.com/en/ https://www.airhelp.com/en/
      - 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
thepasswordis 4y ago
I can't read this paywalled NyTimes article. Where does this $7M fine go? I propose the following: when fines like this are levied against an airline, the airline has to pay out the full $7M figure to one individual who was wronged, and that person is chosen via lottery.
the_only_law 4y ago
You know, my return flight from the holidays last year was suddenly canceled the day I was supposed to fly back (ofc they didn’t announce it till much later) I ended up having to purchase a new last minute flight from another airline. I was supposed to get a refund for the cancelled flight, but I’m not sure I ever did.
mtalantikite 4y ago
I have a voucher from a cancelled flight on JetBlue stuck in the abyss of their computer systems. In order to use it I've been told I have to call, but the wait times are hours long. I can use their text message interface on iOS to get someone to call me back instead of waiting on hold (which is nice), but the couple times I've tried there's been some ridiculous problem with actually using the voucher: They can't find it. Or I need some confirmation number that is different from the one they gave me that I swear doesn't exist. Or they can't transfer the credit into my actual account so I can book a flight on my own. It expires in a couple weeks from today and I just assume I'm never going to use it. I'm also always going to avoid JetBlue in the future. They don't even advertise prices that include carry on bags anymore, you have to pay extra to bring a change of clothes with you.
- himinlomax 4y ago
  What about sending a physical certified letter?
- kylehotchkiss 4y ago
  also if you book JetBlue and the flight changes at all (your change or theirs), you can never look at your reservation online again, the website and app break. Problem has existed for years, nobody wants to fix it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
annoyingnoob 4y ago
In my experience, you can get the attention of an airline by complaining about them to the DOT (in the US). I had an airline change my ticket from refundable/changeable to non-refundable/non-changeable. The airline refused to acknowledge our original contract. A complaint to the DOT got their attention quickly and I was refunded quickly. https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/complaint-process https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/complaint-process
- andrewmunsell 4y ago
  Same experience for me. I had tickets booked under Aeromexico and cancelled them (they had a waiver that provided a cash refund in 12 months after the request, yes that's already ridiculous). I had an email confirmation they would refund the tickets. After the 12 month period, I spent 2 months calling, email-escalating, and eventually filing a DOT complaint. Aeromexico responded within 2 days of the DOT complaint being received and theoretically is in the process of actually refunding me this time (knock on wood). $7m is nothing for them. The fines need to be bigger, quicker, and more aggressive to stop this behavior. They are screwing customers because they can get away with it. EU regulations around customer refunds are significantly better than in the US, and we should be heading in that direction to hold these companies accountable. Side note: my sister actually had tickets on the same route but for an itinerary the week before me and got the refund with no issues, so I have no clue why I had to do the DOT song and dance.
chairmanwow1 4y ago
This thread is making my blood boil. I'm going to go outside and try not to get frustrated at things that didn't even happen to me.
wnolens 4y ago
I've abandoned probably a thousand dollars in airfare in my life. Just don't have the energy nor do I think it's possible to get it back. I once cancelled a flight on United, but the $400 "credit" I had (1y expiry) with them had some special "booking code" attached to it (not informed of this on purchase, bought regularly through their website) so the only tickets I was allowed to use the credit on cost > $1000 (regular economy class..) due to this booking code and had to be searched through a special portal.. what the hell? I could use the regular front page flight search and buy same seat on same flight for less than the difference using my credit.. Does anyone have a positive experience with an airline? They're all such trash. My only one is with Porter airlines, flying out of Toronto. It's often delayed but they're incredibly kind and sometimes give me a $15 voucher to the bar! Also a free alcoholic drink on board.
- JusticeJuice 4y ago
  So I've been working remote and traveling for the last year, visited 28 countries so far so taken a lot of flights - and in my personal, anecdotal, probably biased experience - North American airlines and airports are particularly bad. Many positive experiences everywhere else.
- partdavid 4y ago
  Sometimes I feel like I live in bizarro world, because air travel upsets so many people, and they find it so unpleasant, and I love it. I've had mostly positive experiences. That doesn't mean that nothing has ever gone wrong, but I don't really have an airline horror story (Expedia, on the other hand...) United took care of everything I wanted through many disruptions, delays and cancellations; I got more than value back. Their agent worked through a complicated ticket reuse scenario with setting up a different number of travelers on a different itinerary, I was thrilled with that experience. Alaska gave me free Premium Economy so that I'd have a better chance to make a connecting flight after a delay, and their agents worked really hard to rebook me for a long international itinerary (including on non-partner airlines) to try to make up my time after another delay (and I didn't need one but they also made sure everyone got hotel vouchers and handheld people through using it for accommodations for those who needed it). Both standout positive experiences. I'm continually impressed by flight attendants as a class, and I've never seen one lose their cool even with bizarre, ignorant, or frustrating passengers. Onboard device stuff works pretty well these days, free messaging and streaming a bunch of media from the onboard server for free is nice! Wi-fi is pretty cheap (half of what hotels which charge for Wi-fi cost). Flying now is cheaper and more accessible than ever. If you're nostalgic about the golden days of aviation you can still get white-glove service, free cocktails and real silverware if you pay those golden-era prices. If you want to save as much money as possible, you can sit a middle seat without baggage and fly across Europe for $35. I will say that once upon a time you could find "dream fares" on unsold inventory, and those kind of rare deep discounts don't seem to exist, I assume because there are better pricing algorithms for filling flights. Some of it's knowledge and expectations: I've learned more over the years about things like fare classes. There is a cancellation policy and you agree to it when you buy your fare. It's not like it's a secret. These days you'll almost always see that there's a flexible fare class which gives you more options for cancellation; and some, where you can save money with a nonrefundable fare. I have learned more about the ins and outs are here, over time, so I can certainly understand that if you didn't know these things in advance you'll feel shafted. I've never felt that way but I certainly get it. I guess I just see it more as something to learn rather than something bad someone did to me. I know more about how to spend money on the things I care about and save money on the things I don't.
mkl95 4y ago
$7m sounds like... pocket change? Am I missing something here?
PaulHoule 4y ago
Should be more like $7B if they want this punishment to sting enough to make a difference in behavior.
ranUltra 4y ago
Another case where EU has this settled. If an airline cancels a flight, they are obligated to refund the money in the same payment method, or book another flight, depending what the passenger chooses. They have to provide accommodation in a hotel if needed & you can request compensation up to 600 euros if the cancellation/delay was done in short notice.
- sccxy 4y ago
  It only works in theory and with good airlines. 4 months and still waiting for my Lufthansa refund (4000 eur) and no sign of compensation... They ignore till you take it to the court.
  - WirelessGigabit 4y ago
    Next time pay with credit card and do a chargeback. That'll get the ball rolling.
- idlehand 4y ago
  The EU isn't quite there yet, see the issues with refund processing times during covid for an example. I heard some official talking about how airlines shouldn't be allowed to charge you until you step on the plane, which sounds like a brilliant solution to me. Don't have to fight the airline for compensation for a flight that was cancelled if the airline doesn't have your money yet.
  - banannaise 4y ago
    > I heard some official talking about how airlines shouldn't be allowed to charge you until you step on the plane, which sounds like a brilliant solution to me. This sounds insane until you realize that this is essentially how hotels work. You pay a deposit, and the rest isn't owed until you are physically in the hotel.
    - stavros 4y ago
      > This sounds insane until you realize that this is essentially how hotels work. Or everything else. Trains, taxis, restaurants, everything. How many institutions do you know where you can't buy a ticket at the door, and instead have to prepay?
balderdash 4y ago
These fines are far too small to drive the correct behaviors.
rhacker 4y ago
Perhaps a better system: US set up a website to enter your cancelled flight/missed flight because of security and the amount, airline, proof of ticket, etc... Airline has 36 hours to process a refund or direct payment or US fines the airline $7M each DAY there is at least 1 customer that has not received a refund.
TuringNYC 4y ago
Similar experience, I had a Frontier plan land in a different airpot 80 miles away. They said to just take an Uber to the original destination, and submit the Uber receipt. The ride was almost $200 since the entire planeful of folks were doing the same (I imagine it went into surge pricing.) How does one actually enforce their verbal promise of reimbursement. Is there a government agency where people file their complaints?
- jaywalk 4y ago
  https://airconsumer.dot.gov/escomplaint/ConsumerForm.cfm https://airconsumer.dot.gov/escomplaint/ConsumerForm.cfm
donbronson 4y ago
$7M seems small. I assume the airlines make more money by not providing refunds and will continue to do so at the expense of small fines.

275 points by lxm 4y ago

qikInNdOutReply 4y ago

if Earnings - Fine > 0: print("Cost of buisness is " + Fine) end

JKCalhoun 4y ago
Called counting beans.
nfriedly 4y ago
In this case, it sounds like the airlines are paying the fine AND the refunds. > The department’s intervention contributed to the airlines’ issuing more than $600 million in refunds, it said. > ... > [United States Secretary of Transportation] Mr. Buttigieg said that, while the department was more focused on ensuring that refunds were paid than on collecting fines, he had nonetheless asked staff to look into whether the penalties were sufficient to prevent such behavior in the future. > “This really shouldn’t be happening in the first place,” he said. “And we’ll continue ratcheting up the penalty side until we’re seeing less of this kind of behavior to begin with.”
- vxNsr 4y ago
  If you look more closely that’s not the case. If they pay the refunds, they get to subtract a portion of that from the fine. Dan has more detail and isn’t paywalled: https://www.dansdeals.com/more/news/airline-news/dot-issues-deceptive-press-release-detailing-fines-el-al-frontier-tap-airlines-deceptive-refund-practices/?t https://www.dansdeals.com/more/news/airline-news/dot-issues-...
  - nfriedly 4y ago
    It sounds like that's only the case for "good-will refunds" where the airline wasn't otherwise obligated to pay the refund. > Frontier said it had issued about $100 million in what it described as “good-will refunds” that were not legally required. The airline will pay only $1 million of the $2.2 million fine because the Transportation Department credited it for providing refunds to passengers who canceled nonrefundable tickets early in the pandemic. But, either way, the DOT's main focus is on getting people the refunds. I added a bit more context to my first message to clarify that, but also the fact that the fine is ~1% of the owed refunds makes it fairly clear IMO.
    - sidewndr46 4y ago
      Businesses never admit that they are legally required to pay a refund. It would constitute a public material statement and open the flood gates to more refunds. For a publicly traded company this would probably actually be some sort of SEC violation as well. I can't tell you the number of times I've gotten a "one time refund" from the same companies over and over. From the perspective of a business any refund issued is done in good will. Otherwise it isn't a refund.
  - invisible 4y ago
    Weird -- why not make the fine $604 million (or whatever they truly should owe in refunds) and allow all but, say, 4 million to be reduced?
    - 988747 4y ago
      That would create a weird dynamic: is it more beneficial to the airline to issue refunds to passengers, or is it better to give money directly to the DOT, which, as most government institutions, is probably underfunded and will appreciate the "donation"? Cost for the airline is the same if both cases, but indirectly funding DOT might win you some friends there :)

kqvamxurcagg 4y ago

What a bargain for the airlines. A 1% penalty and they probably saved at least 5% in financing costs.

Hellion 4y ago
When people see small fines like this, they assume it’s a slap on the wrist. And it is. Because the message is loud and clear: don’t make us pay attention to you and fix your shit.
- Loughla 4y ago
  Counting to three only works if you're willing and able to do whatever the thing is you said you would do to the child when they are misbehaving. I think it's less that people see a slap on the wrist, and more that people see the systemic, wholesale capture and gutting of regulatory bodies and are not surprised that nothing substantive happens in this kind of case.
- solardev 4y ago
  I think the message is more like "eh, we're on your side, but once in a while we gotta pretend to do something... just play along and wink, will ya?"
- redanddead 4y ago
  And why are they not paying attention 99% of the other time? When people lose faith in institutions it's not because they're dumb. They understand things. And then to be gaslit into thinking "don't trust your eyes", you can see why some people are pretty angry nowadays.
ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
No, it was an inconvenience. They actually had to take off the cushion from the couch in the CEO's office, to get that money.
nfriedly 4y ago
To be fair, it does say that the penalties will ratchet up if the airlines don't correct their behavior.

ezfe 4y ago

When COVID caused a trip I had planned to be cancelled, I had flights with Iceland Air, TAP Air, Easyjet, and Brussels Airlines... - Iceland Air and Easyjet issued refunds quickly - Brussels took a few months, but communicated proactively that they were working on it and provided updates without me reaching out - TAP never picked up the phone and I ended up having to force a charge after every other airline had come through with a refund... Not surprised, lol

personlurking 4y ago
> TAP never picked up the phone and I ended up having to force a charge after every other airline had come through with a refund... Same happened to me. And I even called an additional time and only dealt with them in Portuguese hoping I might get somewhere with that tactic. Nope. Called, emailed, tweeted, you name it. No luck. Ryanair was pretty bad too. I spent a few weeks trying to book a short, direct flight between major cities and they kept cancelling the flights (3-4 in a row) and trying to give me credit. Their webchat helpline was quite poor, too.
- fy20 4y ago
  I had a few flights cancelled with Ryanair too. Of course they make it hard to get a refund and suggest you take credit instead (which if it was valid for a long period I would have, but it expired after 1 year), however eventually they did give me a full refund.
piskerpan 4y ago
Loved EasyJet for that. I also had a buttload of flights planned for March/April 2020 and EasyJet was by far the easiest. I got a Trenitalia refund probably 18 months later and I had to PayPal-chargeback some OTA which eventually emailed me asking to reverse the chargeback. Sure. The OTA capitulated soon after.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

kaycebasques 4y ago

I am relieved to see that regulators appear aware of the game that Frontier seems to be playing. I flew to Denver recently and didn't need to travel heavy so I went with their cheap fare. The flight from SFO was fine. The flight from DEN to SFO was extremely frustrating. We arrived at DEN early because we got a text message warning us about major TSA delays. Literally the moment we were about to board Frontier changed the flight status to canceled. The plane was there, we saw it arrive and I didn't get the impression there was mechanical issues. It was one of those situations where I intuited that it was useless to try to get my money back and I should just vow to never fly with them again and give everyone a heads up not to use them (like I am doing here).

mattwad 4y ago
They are the scum of the universe. If you don't pay for your seats, they will separate you and your party even if there are available seats together, because they know you'll shell out cash to fix it. (I think American does this now too, and possibly others but I haven't confirmed they also do it when there's available seats).
- gonehome 4y ago
  Isn't that their whole game? If you're going to fly them you should know it. They have the cheapest fares, but they do that by upselling everything and any mistake will be expensive. If that's worth it to you (and sometimes the cost difference is big enough for it to be worth it imo) then it can be a reasonable tradeoff. Flying an extreme lost cost airline that's entire existence is predicated on this model and expecting them to act contrary to that is confusing to me.
  - Benjammer 4y ago
    A large chunk of people think that every product should be certified as 100% effective and that just being able to read two numbers and see which one is the smaller number is the absolute maximum amount of work that should be required to be an informed customer of any product on the planet. Any defect in the product is "a scam," yet, anyone who pays anything more than the absolute minimum viable option is a total sucker. It's honestly a very strange way to view the world that I don't really understand. My source is that my mother is an ardent member of this group of peole. I find that it mostly just leads to the opportunity to complain about everything and build up a complex around you being "slighted" by the universe all the time.

aleyva 4y ago

About time

user3939382 4y ago

If I may comment on the abstract issue here... the experience of flying (US domestic) is a boiling frog situation. Flying used to be fun. 9-11 greatly accelerated the problems, but it had already been getting worse for decades as its popularity grew. Especially because I have long intervals when I don't fly, I absolutely dread the answer to my question, "What new, horrible treatment / experience / standards / fees / abuse will I be learning about this time?" Between the security, checking in, leg room, just everything. The airline's behavior from the post is just an example.

brewdad 4y ago
One advantage of being only 5'7" and my wife 5'2" is that by the time the shrinking legroom issues really become a problem for us, the plane will be mostly empty because normal sized people won't fit. There aren't many advantages to being at the left end of the bell curve but this is one I'll gladly take.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
hovden 4y ago
Note, the most influential change to air travel in the US occurred following deregulation in 1978. This is a case study for many business schools and labor laws. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_deregulation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_deregulation
maest 4y ago
In the US, this trend largely started with the airline deregula act in 1978. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_deregulation#Post-deregulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_deregulation#Post-dere... It's been a constant trend towards a. cheaper flights b. worse quality flights.

JusticeJuice 4y ago

I spent $600 on a flight from London, to San Diego. There's a stopover in New York - but the connecting flight is delayed for six hours. At this point it's 10pm, but they get a plane, we board, we're actually taxing to the runway... and then the flight is canceled. Turns out it would arrive too late in San Diego for noise regulation. We all get off, I get another flight with a different company next thing in the morning. Few days later I hit them up for a refund on the canceled flight. They're happy to refund the NY to SD leg... to a tune of $24. Turns out their internal valuation of a $600 flight is $576 for the first 8h, then $24 for the last 6h. Lol. JetBlue man.

pricechild 4y ago
If you're "departing from an airport in the UK on any airline" then I'm pretty sure the legal minimum compensation is more than that: * https://www.caa.co.uk/passengers/resolving-travel-problems/delays-and-cancellations/delays/ https://www.caa.co.uk/passengers/resolving-travel-problems/d... * https://www.caa.co.uk/passengers/resolving-travel-problems/delays-and-cancellations/cancellations/ https://www.caa.co.uk/passengers/resolving-travel-problems/d... It sounds a bit confusing as to whether you were cancelled or delayed, or accepted an offer etc. but I wouldn't accept $24...
- JusticeJuice 4y ago
  I was just so over it, I took the $24 and treated it as a lesson. I talked to a manager, but I couldn't be fucked doing more than that - I wasn't strapped for cash. If I was in my home turf, with a legal system I knew maybe I'd fight it more, but I was a tourist.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > with a legal system I knew maybe I'd fight it more For future reference, Airhelp will fight it for you [1]. [1] https://www.airhelp.com/en/ https://www.airhelp.com/en/
    - 4y ago

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thepasswordis 4y ago

I can't read this paywalled NyTimes article. Where does this $7M fine go? I propose the following: when fines like this are levied against an airline, the airline has to pay out the full $7M figure to one individual who was wronged, and that person is chosen via lottery.

the_only_law 4y ago

You know, my return flight from the holidays last year was suddenly canceled the day I was supposed to fly back (ofc they didn’t announce it till much later) I ended up having to purchase a new last minute flight from another airline. I was supposed to get a refund for the cancelled flight, but I’m not sure I ever did.

mtalantikite 4y ago

I have a voucher from a cancelled flight on JetBlue stuck in the abyss of their computer systems. In order to use it I've been told I have to call, but the wait times are hours long. I can use their text message interface on iOS to get someone to call me back instead of waiting on hold (which is nice), but the couple times I've tried there's been some ridiculous problem with actually using the voucher: They can't find it. Or I need some confirmation number that is different from the one they gave me that I swear doesn't exist. Or they can't transfer the credit into my actual account so I can book a flight on my own. It expires in a couple weeks from today and I just assume I'm never going to use it. I'm also always going to avoid JetBlue in the future. They don't even advertise prices that include carry on bags anymore, you have to pay extra to bring a change of clothes with you.

himinlomax 4y ago
What about sending a physical certified letter?
kylehotchkiss 4y ago
also if you book JetBlue and the flight changes at all (your change or theirs), you can never look at your reservation online again, the website and app break. Problem has existed for years, nobody wants to fix it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

annoyingnoob 4y ago

In my experience, you can get the attention of an airline by complaining about them to the DOT (in the US). I had an airline change my ticket from refundable/changeable to non-refundable/non-changeable. The airline refused to acknowledge our original contract. A complaint to the DOT got their attention quickly and I was refunded quickly. https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/complaint-process https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/complaint-process

andrewmunsell 4y ago
Same experience for me. I had tickets booked under Aeromexico and cancelled them (they had a waiver that provided a cash refund in 12 months after the request, yes that's already ridiculous). I had an email confirmation they would refund the tickets. After the 12 month period, I spent 2 months calling, email-escalating, and eventually filing a DOT complaint. Aeromexico responded within 2 days of the DOT complaint being received and theoretically is in the process of actually refunding me this time (knock on wood). $7m is nothing for them. The fines need to be bigger, quicker, and more aggressive to stop this behavior. They are screwing customers because they can get away with it. EU regulations around customer refunds are significantly better than in the US, and we should be heading in that direction to hold these companies accountable. Side note: my sister actually had tickets on the same route but for an itinerary the week before me and got the refund with no issues, so I have no clue why I had to do the DOT song and dance.

chairmanwow1 4y ago

This thread is making my blood boil. I'm going to go outside and try not to get frustrated at things that didn't even happen to me.

wnolens 4y ago

I've abandoned probably a thousand dollars in airfare in my life. Just don't have the energy nor do I think it's possible to get it back. I once cancelled a flight on United, but the $400 "credit" I had (1y expiry) with them had some special "booking code" attached to it (not informed of this on purchase, bought regularly through their website) so the only tickets I was allowed to use the credit on cost > $1000 (regular economy class..) due to this booking code and had to be searched through a special portal.. what the hell? I could use the regular front page flight search and buy same seat on same flight for less than the difference using my credit.. Does anyone have a positive experience with an airline? They're all such trash. My only one is with Porter airlines, flying out of Toronto. It's often delayed but they're incredibly kind and sometimes give me a $15 voucher to the bar! Also a free alcoholic drink on board.

JusticeJuice 4y ago
So I've been working remote and traveling for the last year, visited 28 countries so far so taken a lot of flights - and in my personal, anecdotal, probably biased experience - North American airlines and airports are particularly bad. Many positive experiences everywhere else.
partdavid 4y ago
Sometimes I feel like I live in bizarro world, because air travel upsets so many people, and they find it so unpleasant, and I love it. I've had mostly positive experiences. That doesn't mean that nothing has ever gone wrong, but I don't really have an airline horror story (Expedia, on the other hand...) United took care of everything I wanted through many disruptions, delays and cancellations; I got more than value back. Their agent worked through a complicated ticket reuse scenario with setting up a different number of travelers on a different itinerary, I was thrilled with that experience. Alaska gave me free Premium Economy so that I'd have a better chance to make a connecting flight after a delay, and their agents worked really hard to rebook me for a long international itinerary (including on non-partner airlines) to try to make up my time after another delay (and I didn't need one but they also made sure everyone got hotel vouchers and handheld people through using it for accommodations for those who needed it). Both standout positive experiences. I'm continually impressed by flight attendants as a class, and I've never seen one lose their cool even with bizarre, ignorant, or frustrating passengers. Onboard device stuff works pretty well these days, free messaging and streaming a bunch of media from the onboard server for free is nice! Wi-fi is pretty cheap (half of what hotels which charge for Wi-fi cost). Flying now is cheaper and more accessible than ever. If you're nostalgic about the golden days of aviation you can still get white-glove service, free cocktails and real silverware if you pay those golden-era prices. If you want to save as much money as possible, you can sit a middle seat without baggage and fly across Europe for $35. I will say that once upon a time you could find "dream fares" on unsold inventory, and those kind of rare deep discounts don't seem to exist, I assume because there are better pricing algorithms for filling flights. Some of it's knowledge and expectations: I've learned more over the years about things like fare classes. There is a cancellation policy and you agree to it when you buy your fare. It's not like it's a secret. These days you'll almost always see that there's a flexible fare class which gives you more options for cancellation; and some, where you can save money with a nonrefundable fare. I have learned more about the ins and outs are here, over time, so I can certainly understand that if you didn't know these things in advance you'll feel shafted. I've never felt that way but I certainly get it. I guess I just see it more as something to learn rather than something bad someone did to me. I know more about how to spend money on the things I care about and save money on the things I don't.

mkl95 4y ago

$7m sounds like... pocket change? Am I missing something here?

PaulHoule 4y ago

Should be more like $7B if they want this punishment to sting enough to make a difference in behavior.

ranUltra 4y ago

Another case where EU has this settled. If an airline cancels a flight, they are obligated to refund the money in the same payment method, or book another flight, depending what the passenger chooses. They have to provide accommodation in a hotel if needed & you can request compensation up to 600 euros if the cancellation/delay was done in short notice.

sccxy 4y ago
It only works in theory and with good airlines. 4 months and still waiting for my Lufthansa refund (4000 eur) and no sign of compensation... They ignore till you take it to the court.
- WirelessGigabit 4y ago
  Next time pay with credit card and do a chargeback. That'll get the ball rolling.
idlehand 4y ago
The EU isn't quite there yet, see the issues with refund processing times during covid for an example. I heard some official talking about how airlines shouldn't be allowed to charge you until you step on the plane, which sounds like a brilliant solution to me. Don't have to fight the airline for compensation for a flight that was cancelled if the airline doesn't have your money yet.
- banannaise 4y ago
  > I heard some official talking about how airlines shouldn't be allowed to charge you until you step on the plane, which sounds like a brilliant solution to me. This sounds insane until you realize that this is essentially how hotels work. You pay a deposit, and the rest isn't owed until you are physically in the hotel.
  - stavros 4y ago
    > This sounds insane until you realize that this is essentially how hotels work. Or everything else. Trains, taxis, restaurants, everything. How many institutions do you know where you can't buy a ticket at the door, and instead have to prepay?

balderdash 4y ago

These fines are far too small to drive the correct behaviors.

rhacker 4y ago

Perhaps a better system: US set up a website to enter your cancelled flight/missed flight because of security and the amount, airline, proof of ticket, etc... Airline has 36 hours to process a refund or direct payment or US fines the airline $7M each DAY there is at least 1 customer that has not received a refund.

TuringNYC 4y ago

Similar experience, I had a Frontier plan land in a different airpot 80 miles away. They said to just take an Uber to the original destination, and submit the Uber receipt. The ride was almost $200 since the entire planeful of folks were doing the same (I imagine it went into surge pricing.) How does one actually enforce their verbal promise of reimbursement. Is there a government agency where people file their complaints?

jaywalk 4y ago
https://airconsumer.dot.gov/escomplaint/ConsumerForm.cfm https://airconsumer.dot.gov/escomplaint/ConsumerForm.cfm

donbronson 4y ago

$7M seems small. I assume the airlines make more money by not providing refunds and will continue to do so at the expense of small fines.