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App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple
- TheLoafOfBread 4y agoApple iOS is turning into an Android, but without a headphone jack.
- sphars 4y agoUnfortunately, even most Android phones also are being made without a headphone jack nowadays
- TheLoafOfBread 4y agoBut I can still find a phone with headphone jack. Can't do that with Apple.
- tinus_hn 4y agoHate to break it to you but a few years after Apple made this daring move, almost all Android manufacturers have followed suit.
- smoldesu 4y agoAndroid manufacturers also started beveling their phone corners after Apple made it popular, not that it made the phones easier to hold or easier to manufacture. It might be hard to imagine, I know, but sometimes Apple makes the wrong decision.
- vanessaferrel 4y ago
- makz 4y agoWell at this point I expect this to happen for any input on any web page or app.
- vagabund 4y agoSeems reasonable enough
- filoleg 4y agoI was about to say, this is about as unsurprising and reasonable as Google Search listening to what you type into the search bar and which links on the search results page you click.
- tinus_hn 4y agoMany sites, probably including Google Search, also monitor where you move your mouse cursor, even if you’re not clicking. A lot less reasonable and more surprising.
- filoleg 4y agoMaybe on Windows, idk, but I am not sure how Google Search could do it on either iOS or macOS. On iOS, there is no mouse cursor, so there is nothing to track in the first place. On macOS, you have to give permissions on a per-app and per-domain basis. For example, if I want to let Google Maps use my current location, first I will get a prompt to give that permission to the browser I am using in the OS settings, and then I have to give that permission again from within the browser specifically for Google Maps. Also, the web browser shows which specific permissions a page I am on has, and I can revoke them at any given time. Same thing for tracking mouse cursor movements, except it is governed by the macOS accessibility permissions iirc, rather than location permissions, and I don't remember Google Search ever requesting that. Just checked, and the only app that has those permissions on my machine is Discord, and it requested those only when I attempted screensharing. Maybe I am mistaken, and there is some trick around needing permissions to track mouse cursor movements in a browser on macOS (especially given how complex in-browser JS execution behaviors have gotten over time). In which case, someone please correct me. I agree though, tracking mouse cursor movements is definitely a bit more surprising and unexpected than tracking what you type in the website's search bar. Which I would be way more surprised by it not being tracked. It's like expecting Amazon or Steam or Twitter to not track what queries you search for in their search bars (which all of them definitely do, as evident by you being able to look at your search history from within the website).
- lizardactivist 4y agoWhat else do they do, record your facial expressions and every sound you make while using the phone? Talk about feeling like a lab-rat.
- jmole 4y agoThey could, if battery life impact weren’t a thing. This is going to be the biggest “gotcha” with VR as well.
- throwaway888abc 4y agoI believe Amazon, Airbnb, airlines and many others are doing / were doing same on their web pages too. It allow to provide better personalized (TM) experience and significantly increase ROI. There is good book how it works in offline world. https://www.npr.org/2017/02/13/514322899/aisles-have-eyes-warns-that-brick-and-mortar-stores-are-watching-you https://www.npr.org/2017/02/13/514322899/aisles-have-eyes-wa...
- altairprime 4y agoOP misconstrues an iOS tracking dialog to support their complaint: > The strange thing is that Apple introduced strict measures in iOS 14.5 to prevent developers from fingerprinting users. The dialog text in their screenshot reads: > Allow “App” to track your activity across other companies’ apps and sites? Users refusing this permission are not prohibiting tracking by the company that issued the dialog. They are prohibiting the company from tracking users beyond the boundary of their corporation. Apple’s App Store app is within the boundary of Apple Corporation, and so the tracking dialog shown is not relevant to their complaint. (I have no viewpoint to offer on OP’s argument beyond the logical reasoning error described above.)
- tinus_hn 4y agoAlso Apple doesn’t have any incentive to ‘fingerprint’ App Store users because they are either logged in or using a unique identifier.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y agoSure they do. What if they switch accounts, usernames, phones, etc. More data is better.
- tinus_hn 4y agoIf you do that, you lose all your apps and settings. Ergo, nobody does that. If you switch phones, you transfer the account. Also, Apple tracking what you do in their App Store is perhaps not very nice but doesn’t affect anyone in any detectable way so no normal person is going to go through the effort to avoid it, if they even know it is happening.
- altairprime 4y agoThis argument’s logical error is declaring that an inconvenience takes higher precedence than the desired outcome. For example, I am seriously considering doing exactly what you describe as “nobody does that” — having to repurchase all my apps and redo all my settings — in order to complete my transgender name change. Apple refuses to purge my old deadname’s iCloud email address, and so if I want to remove it, I’ll need to start a new Apple account and re-purchase all of my apps and content.
- dangus 4y agoUnless this person shows us Settings > Privacy & Security > Analytics & Improvements, the only thing I can conclude is that they left the setting on and they’re confusing third party app tracking controls with Apple’s analytics setting.
- Nullabillity 4y agoDoesn't that just say more about how obtuse these settings are designed to be though?
- dangus 4y agoNo. The settings pane has multiple sentence explanations for what the privacy settings do. You're asked whether you want to send analytics to Apple as soon as you set up any device.
- smoldesu 4y agoThey literally say in the body of the first post, verbatim "(data usage & personalized ads are off)" If the "only thing" you can conlcude is user error, you must be unfamiliar with the insane amount of ambient telemetry iOS/MacOS collects even when disabling analytics (OCSP ring a bell?)
- dangus 4y ago"Data usage & personalized ads" is not the setting I'm talking about. Personalized Ads is a different setting than the one I described, located in the "Apple Advertising" section, not the "Analytics & Improvements" section that I think the relevant setting lives in. "Data usage" isn't the name of any setting on iOS, that phrase is too vague to be sure what they mean. This is why I say that I'd like to see a screenshot of the relevant settings panes. How do I know this person didn't accidentally flip them back on during an update? OCSP isn't relevant to this issue. It's not "analytics," it does not seem to collect personal data, anonymized or not. OCSP is used to verify/revoke certificates, essentially for the purpose of removing malware and spam, which is a basic function consumer-friendly OS: https://apple.stackexchange.com/a/420002 https://apple.stackexchange.com/a/420002 To me that's a really legitimate use of a "phone home" when we're talking about commercial consumer operating systems.
- beders 4y agoWe use LogRocket to record all interactions with our front-ends and it's awesome for trouble shooting and also invaluable for our product managers. They can see where users are struggling with the app and where extra-guidance is necessary. I'm assuming many many many other apps and web pages are doing the same thing. Nothing to see here.
- Nullabillity 4y ago
- judge2020 4y agoTracking how users use your own app is hardly malicious, in fact it's entirely in an effort to identify user frustration and solve it or otherwise improve the product. Tracking across different apps is definitely malicious, though.
- MereInterest 4y agoTracking how users use their own phones is certainly malicious. Regardless of whether they are using an application that you wrote, it is their phone.
- s3p 4y agoThat is not what is happening here. Users' on-screen taps inside the App Store app are being tracked. Not their interactions with any other aspect of the phone.
- croes 4y agoHe/she is referring to parents comment >tracking how users use your own app is hardly malicious
- MereInterest 4y agoWhere, pray tell, are the user's on-screen taps occurring, if not on the user's phone?
- mensetmanusman 4y agoAfter iOS 16 Apple asks for ‘analytics’ to improve iOS. It is disingenuous of them to use the word ‘Tracking’ for everyone else and ‘experience improving’ for themselves.
- comboy 4y agoI mean, tracking lets companies identify you across different events. Apple doesn't need to ask for that when you are using iphone. I don't even mean it in a malicious way, just the fact that it will keep doing authenticated requests to their servers. They are not able not to track you while providing their services. (this is regarding your comment not the article itself)
- yesBut00 4y agoI bought an Apple device. Did not sign up to be anyone else’s payday. I want Apple to improve their devices. Don’t care if anyone else benefits from it. Really frustrating to live in a country that wants forced socialization if their is opportunity to make money off me, but otherwise I’m just a cost center. In no way does my use of an Apple device act as an open door for anyone else. I’m not interested in technology to help some coder feed himself but because tech is fun and intellectually interesting.
- smoldesu 4y ago> In no way does my use of an Apple device act as an open door for anyone else. Sure, as long as your definition of "anyone else" excludes the NSA, FIVE EYES, China, anyone distributing Pegasus, Akamai and the rest of Apple's contractors.
- b0ngw4t3r 4y agoAre you making a moral claim? You see a handful of corrupt government agents. I see a world where billions do not kill thousands of government agents. The public has made its choice. Some vain apes on HN who see deluded masses in need of rescue may in fact be the deluded fools.
- deleted 4y ago
- harry8 4y agoApple: Proof you can pay and still be the product. It's like someone breaking into your house and rummaging through your desk taking photos because that suits them and there is fine print. One day as a society having a networked cpu involved in someone doing something won't make nearly every lawmaker, lawyer, judge and customer have their brain fall out of their ear and they'll actually be able to think critically about it and respond. "But facebrick/goog/the stasi are a little bit worse so..."
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- coffeeling 4y agoA much easier example: TV manufacturers. High end TVs cost a couple arms and a leg and the UI is still infested with trackers and ads.
- harry8 4y agoSure but the apple enthusiasts tend not to accept that because they're all companies where the managment is in Asia with those making decisions raised in the various and quite different to each other Asian cultures, (Japan, China, Korea etc.) Obviously this distinction is garbage. Surveillance capitialism is an american innovation. Apple is as american as apple-pie. "If you don't pay for it you're the product." Comes up whenever Apple create yet another problem for which the "best" solution is to pay apple even more money. Apple customers are an Apple product they sell. Paying Apple does not remove you from that. No matter who is your provider you are the product right up until the point someone can go to jail for it. Fines are merely a business expense and treated as such. CEO can do time for breaking the rules. Whole different approach ensues. What rules? How to enforce? How to interpret? How to ensure the courts don't just have a mental breakdown, throw up their hands and pass because a cpu attached to a network is on the critical path of what was done that would be clearly, wholly and totally illegal if it were replaced with an army of workers and a mountain of paper and filing cabinets.
- jojobas 4y agoOne doesn't become a near-monopoly to play nice, you should assume everybody does everything they can get away with.
- CharlesW 4y agoIt's interesting that the researchers assumed turning off the transmission of device analytics would also turn off the transmission of all app analytics, whether from Apple or third parties. I also wish they would've tried Lockdown Mode, at least.
- HomePhone 4y agoPer the article, other vendors do just that: “He and his research partner ran similar tests in the past looking at analytics in Google Chrome and Microsoft Edge. In both of those apps, Mysk says the data isn’t sent when analytics settings are turned off.”
- gruez 4y ago>It's interesting that the researchers assumed turning off the transmission of device analytics would also turn off the transmission of all app analytics, whether from Apple Given that the app store comes installed by default and can't be uninstalled, it seems fairly reasonable to assume that it's part of the OS. Therefore it's not unreasonable to assume that disabling "device analytics" would also disable app store analytics.
- aurora72 4y ago
- simonh 4y agoThe purpose of analytics is firstly to recreate bugs, and also to identify cases where users are getting stuck or frustrated. An example of the latter might a user repeatedly going back to the same screen again and again because they can’t find something. It's generally not useful at the individual level, but can be if you see similar behaviour across a large number of sessions. I know you don’t care if there’s a real reason or not, but others here might. Anyway, it's good they're moving towards seeking more comprehensive permission for this kind of analytics.
- s3p 4y agoLockdown mode didn't exist on iOS 14 sadly
- Vt71fcAqt7 4y agoI don't understand people still hanging on to the fiction that Apple is some sort of bastion of privacy. Do they know that google pays Apple "an estimated $8-12 billion"[0] to be default search and as a result track almost all iPhone users' searches? If that's not "selling your data" I don't know what is. [0]https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/25/technology/apple-google-search-antitrust.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/25/technology/apple-google-s...
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- phendrenad2 4y agoThis is like complaining that your soundproof apartment isn't giving you the right level of privacy because when you stand on a soapbox in the town square and shout "I wear pink underwear" everyone knows what color your underwear are. If you want privacy, why not, you know, use the privacy features? (Like chat messages, which are NOT sent to Google).
- Vt71fcAqt7 4y agoI'm not sure you thought this through... Apple does not care about your privacy if they are willing to sell it for $12 Billion. I don't have an iPhone, and I never complained about them. To be honest, it's not clear that you even read my message at all. For context, I wrote that comment in a different thread and it got moved here: see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33527500 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33527500
- phendrenad2 4y agoWho is Apple selling your data to for $12 billion?
- derwiki 4y agoI have an iPhone and don’t use Google search (I’m not logged in to any Google services actually, unless Apple Mail loading Gmail counts) so I’m pretty sure Google is not tracking _all_ users’ searches.
- dang 4y agoRelated article, with some more background: https://gizmodo.com/apple-iphone-analytics-tracking-even-when-off-app-store-1849757558 https://gizmodo.com/apple-iphone-analytics-tracking-even-whe... (via https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33527141 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33527141, but we merged that thread hither)
- midislack 4y agoAs Apple's in PRISM, I just assume everything on the device is sent to the NSA.
- yrgulation 4y agoEvery webapp with typeahead functionality does it. How is this any different?
- speedgoose 4y agoApple is supposed to be good for privacy.
- yrgulation 4y agoIndeed. Asking the question not because i am defending apple, but just pointing out that this common practice. If you want typeahead there is no way around sending all keystrokes. Poor phrasing on my end.
- yjftsjthsd-h 4y agoSo then it seems like the clear difference there is whether the user is getting meaningfully useful functionality by having their information given to the vendor. Although I'm not particularly impressed with the privacy implications of type ahead, it is at least an obviously useful feature in exchange for the user's information. What do we think Apple is giving the user in exchange for this information?
- s3p 4y agoWhy are they looking at software from 18 months ago and not iOS 16?
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- seydor 4y agoIt's for their own good
- jjallen 4y agoI don't know about you, but I basically assume every app is doing this. Is this really a surprise? Were not all apps doing this for a long time?
- SCLeo 4y agoInstagram? Facebook? Maybe. I certainly did not think Apple would do this.
- maronato 4y agoApple isn’t the savior of privacy. Their privacy features will only go as far as they can market it, and only for as long as they can profit from it.
- nisegami 4y ago>I certainly did not think Apple would do this. Their PR department certainly earns their keep.
- deafpolygon 4y agoTo be fair, they said they'd protect your data, not that THEY wouldn't collect it. They want to be the gatekeeper of it.
- piyush_soni 4y agoRepeat after me, "You are the product" only when you buy an Android phone.
- dncornholio 4y agoAnd this is news, why?
- justapassenger 4y agoBecause Apple spends billions of dollars, for them fighting for user privacy and keeping all your data on the phone being a news.
- sprite 4y agoThis is nothing new. Apple has been tracking searches in the App Store, which apps you scroll past and which ones you tap on very far back, maybe even since the initial App Store, that's how they figure out how to rank various apps for various search terms (I don't know the exact formula but one of the components is CTR for a particular search term, others appears to be rating score, number of ratings, number of written review, number of total downloads, download velocity, given keywords, title, company name, trademark, update frequency, etc). If you search multiple times for the same term you will see a slight variation in search results, that's how they give apps a chance to move up or down. IE they move you down one slot but you still outperform the app above in CTR, you probably should remain in your current spot, or move up. Another app gets moved in front of their current ranking and the app that got moved down outperforms it in CTR, keep things as they are.
- booleandilemma 4y agoI'm seeing a lot of comments saying things like "seems reasonable" and "of course", but I thought Apple was supposed to be for the privacy conscious? Why is HN not bothered by this?
- bakugo 4y agoHN is full of not-so-subtle Apple marketers. Every other day I see a post about how privacy-first Apple is, but when the truth actually comes out the narrative instantly shifts to "well who cares, everyone else does that, stop noticing things"
- 2fast4you 4y agoMy view on it, Apple is the least of all the evils. Even if they seem to be getting worse advertising wise