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Justice Department announces takedown of catalytic converter theft ring

405 points by smaili 4y ago

moab9 4y ago
good!
NaturalPhallacy 4y ago
It's kinda fascinating to watch mining for precious metals go from digging tunnels, to extracting from other people's cars. I wonder if this will make a dent in how often it happens. My niece's was stolen in broad daylight.
- treeman79 4y ago
  Only thing that will help is serious prison sentences and the right to defend property with deadly force. Many areas of the country there is no consequences.
  - ThunderSizzle 4y ago
    There's a penalty for being stolen from though in those areas that do emissions testing, since you can't pass without a working converter, and the state won't replace it for you.
    - jupp0r 4y ago
      The way these are stolen (cut out), vehicles won't be operable without replacement (or putting in a straight pipe where that's legal).
  - NaturalPhallacy 4y ago
    I mean you can buy - and I wish I was kidding - armor for your car to prevent the theft: https://search.brave.com/search?q=catalytic+converter+guard https://search.brave.com/search?q=catalytic+converter+guard
  - steve_adams_86 4y ago
    How do we get from catalytic converters to the right to murder so quickly?
    - TEP_Kim_Il_Sung 4y ago
      A lot of people seem to use "killing" and "murder" interchangably, though they are different in more than legal ways. A building collapsing can kill a person, as can a landslide, and an uncontrollably skidding car. A lion attacking a human and eating his organs is no murderer, and neither is that human for defending themselves by killing that lion before he can finish his attack. One human killing another does not necessarily have to be murdering them. Initiation of violence, and intent, determine the difference between killing and murder. Even self-killing and self-murder have their own words (suicide is one). Also crows; They gather in murders all the time. Please consider applying the correct word to the context you wish to discuss.
      - Nullabillity 4y ago
        GGP is talking about intentionally killing people. That's murder. Please consider applying the correct word to the context you wish to discuss.
        spullara 4y ago
        For it to be murder it has to be unlawful.
        TEP_Kim_Il_Sung 4y ago
        Running a stoplight and making an illegal left turn into a kid running across the street, is unlwaful. Still counts as killing (legal term: manslaughter), not murder.
        spullara 4y ago
        True, but that isn't relevant. I am saying it is a necessary but not sufficient condition for it to be murder. By definition, it must be unlawful, but it also must be premeditated.
  - aaomidi 4y ago
    You know how if you punish a dog, it doesn't really learn and get better? Humans are like that too. Theft is heavily correlated with the economy. Arguably it's a canary in the mine - you can very usually tell what's going to happen in the macroeconomics of an area by just following crime statistics. "Deterrence" has generally been found to be a pretty well-rooted myth. Majority of theft also happens by people who _don't actually know what the consequences are_. So just increasing them doesn't actually help. If you can show strong evidence that prison is one of the best ways of reducing crime, then sure you've convinced me (and probably plenty others).
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      If you give a dog timely and consistent corrections, it really does learn. That's literally half the battle in house-training a dog. (Yes, you try to control and arrange success and praise when the dog does the right thing, but you also correct when it does the wrong thing.)
      - cratermoon 4y ago
        Dogs are smarter than people.
        MichaelZuo 4y ago
        Pretty odd location to write a joke.
        PM_me_your_math 4y ago
        How's the canine space program going? Any reusable rocket bodies yet?
        sokoloff 4y ago
        Dogs did beat humans to space. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_space_dogs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_space_dogs
      - 4y ago
  - nkrisc 4y ago
    Property is not worth a life. Not even the life of the person damaging it. Property can be replaced, a life can not. Besides, there’s way too much margin for error in vigilante justice. That’s why we have trials, imperfect as even they may be. They’re certainly better than empowering everyone to be judge, jury, and executioner because they thought you might be committing a property crime.
    - HarryHirsch 4y ago
      Property is not worth a life. Not even the life of the person damaging it. Have you seen the film "Bicycle Thieves"? If someone's property is his livelihood one can have sympathies for those defending it with extreme measures.
    - NaturalPhallacy 4y ago
      >Property is not worth a life. Generally speaking, no, of course not. But, if someone's breaking into your home in the middle of the night, you don't know what their intentions are to just steal some stuff or to rape and murder your family. There's a reason so many states have castle doctrine and such, and it's because there really are bad people out there.
    - pyuser583 4y ago
      It depends on the property. I have medication I need to live. If I don’t take it regularly daily, a clock starts ticking. When the time is up, I die. When I travel I treat my bags like my life. I recent had nasty run in with an airline that wanted me to check my bags. I refused to get on the plane. When I took the next flight, my checked baggage didn’t make the connection. I might have survived if I got to the ER fast enough. But those bags are my life. In developing countries, petrol means access to medicine, food, etc. “Property is more important than life” is a luxury belief for the wealthy and healthy.
      - user_7832 4y ago
        Yeah, it definitely depends on the context. If someone stole my bag from my car they'd get a few ml of insulin which is practically worthless to them, but is absolutely necessary for me. If you don't mind my asking, what medication do you take?
  - adrianmonk 4y ago
    Here in Texas, the law does give the right to defend property with deadly force[1]. And lots of people have guns. We are the #1 state on the list of gun ownership[2]. And catalytic converter theft is still very common. We are the #2 state on the list of catalytic converter thefts per 100k automobiles[3]. --- [1] https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/PE/htm/PE.9.htm https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/PE/htm/PE.9.htm [2] https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/gun-ownership-rates-by-state/52/ https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/gun-ownership-rates-by-stat... [3] https://www.beenverified.com/data-analysis/catalytic-converter-theft-state-rankings/ https://www.beenverified.com/data-analysis/catalytic-convert...
    - svnpenn 4y ago
      Texas has more than double the licenses of even the second place state (Florida).
      - comex 4y ago
        Do you mean driver’s licenses? That doesn’t seem relevant if the figure is thefts per 100k automobiles.
        svnpenn 4y ago
        https://cbsnews.com/pictures/gun-ownership-rates-by-state/52 https://cbsnews.com/pictures/gun-ownership-rates-by-state/52
        dylan604 4y ago
        Since the conversation was about gun ownership, I read it as CCL conceal&carry license
    - userbinator 4y ago
      I wonder if that's related in any way to it also relatively common to straight-pipe in Texas.
      - 4y ago
  - agentwiggles 4y ago
    I'm not killing anyone for screwing with my car, and I hope most folks feel the same way. Yes, it sucks. Yes, I'd be more than pissed. But I'm not going to murder another human for a property crime.
    - ksidudwbw 4y ago
      But for a box of chicken nuggets on the other hand..
    - PM_me_your_math 4y ago
      Self defense and defense of property is not murder. So many street trash shit on regular families just trying to get by precisely because of sympathy for dirtbags who shouldn't be drawing the same breath as normal people.
  - shakezula 4y ago
    I’m a gun-owning full pro-2A believer and I absolutely disagree with killing someone over stealing a catalytic converter. For fuck’s sake, prison or murder cannot be the only two options here.
    - friend_and_foe 4y ago
      What's being discussed here is not a revenge killing, you catch someone doing it you're probably not going to gun them down, you're more likely to detain, call police and press charges, or chase them off. But if they come at you with their hacksaw... I think the proper solution to this is that car manufacturers should be required to better secure these things. Putting a thousand dollars or more in such an easy to access place, requiring people to have some of their money sitting there like that, might as well tie a bow around it and set it on the hood.
      - shakezula 4y ago
        The parent comment said > the right to defend property with deadly force. Which is not self-defense. You’re conflating the two and it’s a poor argument for taking a life over an exhaust pipe with some minerals in it. I’ve spent a lot of time under a car and I can tell you I don’t think the solution is bolting the catalytic converter down tighter.
        friend_and_foe 4y ago
        What's the solution then?
    - PM_me_your_math 4y ago
      Heard a story of a man who was under a car, cutting out a converter when the owner snuck up on him and smashed the butt end of a rifle right into the thieves balls. The man ended up losing both his testicles. No charges were filed. I like it. Perhaps another price should be your balls cutt off with a sawzall.
  - plantain 4y ago
    Why is catalytic converter theft seemingly worse in the US/UK than in Europe/AU/NZ? I think the problem is underlying societal collapse rather than consequences.
    - NaturalPhallacy 4y ago
      Hypothesis: The "war on drugs" and rampant poverty with minimal to no social safety nets. America is brutal on its poor. I know cause I grew up on food stamps and expired meat in Chemical Valley during the height of Dupont's C8 dumping. People are soul crushingly desperate, but many don't even know it doesn't have to be this bad.
      - PM_me_your_math 4y ago
        This is a joke right? Have you seen how much the USA pays in social safety nets? Also, in the absence of the war on drugs, you'd still have criminal gangs, so no, that has nothing to do with it.
    - Melting_Harps 4y ago
      > Why is catalytic converter theft seemingly worse in the US/UK than in Europe/AU/NZ? Many reasons, but chief among them are that EU is oddly really relaxed on emissions (hence diesel gate not being as big of an issue in it's own Country) and don't use the same equipment on their cars also because AU/NZ are big markets for used Japanese export vehicles that have exceeded its Shakin/Km limits in Japan and there isn't the local demand for these components as the laws don't reflect such strict standards. By contrast those cars are not legal in the US due to emissions, until they fall out of the testing period: see used the massive headache created with the post Motorex Nissan Skyline market by-laws. The UK is odd because MOT and carbon tax things play a part, but it's way easier to register a RHD car from Japan if you're outside of London, and even within it if you know where to go. But both the US and UK also have lots of poverty based crime (theft) underlying their society. Europe, but especially Germany, has many auto-manufactures writing their laws for them; and the higher ubiquity of diesel cars on the road in those markets as opposed to benzene (gasoline) means they cannot just make them all vanish without having immense backlash. So, they greese the right wheels, and things carry on: business as usual. I won't touch the other reasons, but if you really want the nitty-gritty of how relaxed EU standards are read: Faster, Higher, Farther. There is a reason it was some college kids in CA with a home-brew emission tester in a rented Tdi that butsted VW, and not the EU's climate Nazis/Green party in Baden-Wuttenburg. (I lived there and was subject to their stupid vanity based green washing laws as an environmental activist, so I can say that!)
  - denkmoon 4y ago
    My country has neither of those and the stealing of catalytic converters is very uncommon. Please go right ahead though, seeing the failures of the punitive system in the US provides an exemplar of why my country should not go down that path.
Test0129 4y ago
This is happening more and more frequently in my locale. Several of my friends and many of my neighbors have had their catalytic converters stolen. It's good to see something is done. Let's hope this steamrolls into a nationwide manhunt for these criminals. They should also consider targeting and auditing shops that buy used car parts. Making it extremely difficult to fence these things will be practical and useful because they aren't sold and reused as is - the rare earth metals are extracted. Something your average criminal won't be capable of doing in their garage.
- User23 4y ago
  It used to be that back when local cops cared about property crime this was standard operating procedure. When I was a kid if you etched a serial number into your bike frame and parts and registered it with the local PD you were practically assured you’d get your bike back when it inevitably showed up at a pawn shop or similar.
  - rydifyrhffh 4y ago
    I'm curious where you live that they don't still care tbh. In my experience police do what they're allowed that will be effective. But if you have a DA who refuses to prosecute people or you pass local laws that make doing their job in a manner that gets results impossible then they tend not to waste their time.
    - magicalist 4y ago
      If you've never experienced the indifference of a cop taking a property crime report and the complete lack of follow up, just pick a place and you can look at non-violent crime clearance rate. They really don't care.
      - rydifyrhffh 4y ago
        As it happens I experienced exactly this scenario when a homeless person broke into my house while I was asleep, stole a bunch of stuff, and then made off with my car. The cop certainly didn't solve all my problems but they were clear about what they needed to know and what I'd need to do if I wanted to hear back from the city when the person was found. If the police in your area don't care it seems far more likely that they either don't feel allowed to police effectively or they feel their efforts will be wasted.
beardog 4y ago
>The 21 defendants are charged in two separate indictments that were unsealed today in the Eastern District of California and the Northern District of Oklahoma following extensive law enforcement arrest and search operations. In addition to the indictments, over 32 search warrants were executed, and law enforcement seized millions of dollars in assets, including homes, bank accounts, cash, and luxury vehicles. I obviously don't have any sympathy for these likely criminals, but unless i misunderstand it sounds like people lost their homes (civil asset forfeiture) before being convicted of a crime which I'm not sure is something to brag about.
- genmud 4y ago
  I think that if you paid for your home with criminal activity you should forfeit that to repay the victims of your crimes. If your legal and illegal stuff is together, tough shit.
  - DJBunnies 4y ago
    Civil forfeiture is lawless.
    - NaturalPhallacy 4y ago
      Civil forfeiture is a euphemism for theft by authorities.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > Civil forfeiture is lawless. Civil forfeiture may be unjust, but it is definitely a product of, and tightly governed by, law. It is also irrelevant to this case, in which criminal, not civil, forfeiture is sought.
  - laverya 4y ago
    Right, but they should have to prove that the home was paid for with crime, and not the other way around.
    - 4y ago
notch656a 4y ago
It should be legal to run a straight-pipe if your cat gets stolen through no fault of your own. The economics incentives of the black market are there in the first place largely proximal to policy. As it stands .gov gets to light the candle from both ends, going after those failing emissions while also going after the cat thieves. Edit: Love the helpful comments though telling poor people just to move out of the city if their cat gets stolen, as if moving is easy if you can't afford to replace a cat.
- solomatov 4y ago
  What incentives do you mean? Catalytic converters protect all of us from harmful compounds in exhaust, and I don't see why to fight thieves we need to breathe bad air.
  - TEP_Kim_Il_Sung 4y ago
    You could just go back to wearing masks. N95 are actually made to stop industrial particulates and chemicals. Just a possible alternative.
- kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y ago
  Move out of the city. Many rural areas don't require emissions testing, so there's no way to stop people from omitting them. Beware noise ordinances, though.
  - oblib 4y ago
    As someone who lives in a rural area I and most of those who live in such places around here tend to frown on that sort of thing. We put a high very value on our clean air.
    - hprotagonist 4y ago
      until it’s time to roll coal.
scottdevries 4y ago
I wonder if the same amount of resources will be used to take down the Nationwide Bicycle Theft Ring as well.
- okay_dude_321 4y ago
  - lukas099 4y ago
    Where is bike theft legal?
    - okay_dude_321 4y ago
      - Jotra7 4y ago
- loeg 4y ago
  It’s mostly not organized. (Though there do seem to be some rings exporting high end bikes to Mexico for sale.)
- cyberge99 4y ago
  Doubtful. Thieves steal catalytic converters for the Rhodium in them. Rhodium is more expensive than gold per troy ounce.
- gpm 4y ago
  Is there a national bicycle theft ring? I have a vague impression that it's mostly small groups. Steal a few bikes, maybe swap some parts around, sell them as used bikes, repeat. This takedown seems to have been possible because there was a central group that was moving hundreds of millions of dollars of stolen goods - maybe even billions if you take "cost to manufacture" instead of "resell value". Why would a bike theft ring that centralized exist?
reducesuffering 4y ago
This theft is so costly and prevalent in my neighborhood, it's like $2,500 per 100 people. In 2 years, I've had mine stolen twice.
- Melting_Harps 4y ago
  > This theft is so costly and prevalent in my neighborhood, it's like $2,500 per 100 people. In 2 years, I've had mine stolen twice. Bay area? i thought i was bad in Socal, I had my Gen 2 Prius siting outside a residential area near a major university town while I was away in EU and had mine stolen. I had to junk a decently running hybrid because of this as Toyota had a shortage of them and since the Prius was designed for the California market without the Toyota stamp on the cat its an instant fail for emissions, even if the ppms are within spec with an aftermarket part: no exceptions! It's literally the most ironic thing I've experienced and I worked in the auto industry and at VW through Diesel gate! This is so wide-spread and many good cars just ended up in the scrap yard when it was an easy fix to just allow for temp smog exemption, mine still for 40+mpg with worn batteries and thus exceeded most of what is sold on the market now, but because of regulatory capture and how insurance policy works it was the most expedient albeit wasteful solution--this is what I fear AI will bring about in most cases if left to its own devises and unchecked, too. Some made it to neighboring states without this requirement (OR/AZ/NV/CO) but the issue was logistical because you'd need a temp Cat installed to drive to said state, but in early '21 you could get them for <$1000 and recovered your costs as they soared in value as gas inflation pries kicked in gear. I actually pitched this as a to a friend who was having his 1st kid at the time, he offered me funding (mid 5 figures) but I couldn't work with him due to the child so I left the idea and took off to EU instead. I had anticipated and projected healthy returns, $2k/unit after expenses, little did I know it would go to $7k+ per unit as I found my sources for the legwork: 49 state legal cats, mechanics to install, and drivers ready to go (mainly me). It's mainly what I had done at VW after all, logistically speaking. There was a total parallel economy in shield installs, part/chassis swaps and tracking devises etc... because it got worse not better. I attribute a lot of this to the issue wit unemployment payments, and general lack of help for those during covid people got desperate and would probably be foisted into this easier than before.
55555 4y ago
I may be misreading this but the margins look insane. DG Auto paid like 38 million USD for stolen converters, performed a simple extraction process, then sold the precious metals for 550 million USD. Wow.
- mortenjorck 4y ago
  This makes me very curious how many steps in the laundering chain you have to go before it’s no longer indefensibly obvious that something's not right with the sourcing.
  - lazide 4y ago
    Usually about 3, maybe 4 tops.
- fswd 4y ago
  Wow. I googled DG Auto, and they even have an app for thieves to check prices. https://dgauto.app/ https://dgauto.app/ Really wish the cops would download a list of who installed this app and find their location data on top of a map of reported thefts...
  - mardifoufs 4y ago
    Theft as a service, literally. You can even get them graded! Pretty good app all things considered
  - insaneirish 4y ago
    > Really wish the cops would download a list of who installed this app and find their location data on top of a map of reported thefts... Uh... So, I too found the website and couldn't believe how brazen the business is. I too was surprised about the app. If I downloaded the app because I was so surprised, should my name be given to the police as part of this investigation? That's ridiculous.
    - gpm 4y ago
oblib 4y ago
I think taking down the buyers is a the best tool we have right now for this issue. And there are things we could do to make that easier, like putting a serial number on the converter on new cars and replacement parts. Requiring the make, model, and serial number of the car it was removed from, and a web site with a DB that has the ID number of cars they've been stolen from so buyers could check it. Make those who buy and sell and steal them pay for it. For new car buyers all they be paying for is the addition of the serial number. Can't add much cost to engrave those during production.
- reustle 4y ago
  People would grind off the serial numbers and sell them on the secondary market, or for the metals. With motorcycles, for example, motors and frames have vin numbers stamped to help prevent this, but you’ll sometimes see cheap parts for sale with the vin cleaned off.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - jakogut 4y ago
    In case anyone thinks this is cost prohibitive or the tooling is rare, a $100 battery powered grinder you can buy from Home Depot will do this in five seconds. If you have a little less money and a little more time, a $5 flat file will do the same thing in a few minutes.
    - oblib 4y ago
      You know... we already have vehicle IDs on the body, the frame, and the engine on/in our cars. Those do lead to arrest every day here in the U.S.
    - Scoundreller 4y ago
      Depends. The number stamping process does change the metal’s underlying metallurgy throughout the the metal where it was stamped. So unless you drill out the number through the entire metal (which is viable if you’re going to extract the minerals), there’s a possibility of reconstructing the serial number with some level of probability. Happens with guns. But that’s why you criminalize the trade of unmarked parts. Actually makes the prosecutor’s job easy that way rather than proving the part was actually stolen and not your retirement cat investment.
grecy 4y ago
I feel like this is exactly like going after ivory poachers instead of the buyers at the other end. Who is creating a market for stolen catalytic converters? Are the precious metals being extracted, melted down and sold? to who and where? Put THOSE people in jail for the rest of their lives and change the setup so there is in incentive for anyone to even steal one in the first place.
- duskwuff 4y ago
  From the press release: > They knowingly purchased stolen catalytic converters and, through a “de-canning” process, extracted the precious metal powders from the catalytic core. DG Auto sold the precious metal powders it processed from California and elsewhere to a metal refinery for over $545 million.
  - grecy 4y ago
    So give the refinery a fine that is 10x their yearly profit, cripple it's leadership and make an "example" out of them. End their business, and make it clear that any metal refinery buying materials that could come from catalytic converters needs to be very, very careful and have extremely good documentation about where it actually comes from. I mean, when you're buying refined precious metal powders from inside the US, it doesn't take a genius to figure out where it's coming from.
    - rydifyrhffh 4y ago
    - cogman10 4y ago
      DG Auto is a nation wide operation. They aren't sending the contents of the cats over 1 cat at a time. It's not really reasonable to hold the refinery at fault, they were working with another major business dealing in large numbers. DG Auto is the right place to hit because they knew they were getting $38 million dollars of cats from 1 family and an unlicensed business (that family is also getting prosecuted). You wouldn't hold a refinery at fault for smelting down cars they got from a junkyard. They have no reason to suspect the junkyard is sending them stolen goods. Any resell business that deals with individuals is where the pressure belongs.
tomohawk 4y ago
1: why do we need obsolete tech like catalytic converters when there is better tech for ICE to accomplish the same thing? (answer: because the government requires catalytic converters regardless, so no motivation to replace) 2: why did it take them this long?
- castratikron 4y ago
  What's the alternative?
  - rdtwo 4y ago
    People stealing car batteries at 7-12k a pop
    - ytdytvhxgydvhh 4y ago
      Have you seen the videos of catalytic converter thieves sliding under a vehicle, sawing it out and walking away nonchalantly with their easily-carried score in less than 2 minutes? I’ve seen multiple videos like that. Have you seen any videos of people sliding under a Tesla and somehow sawing out the ~800 pound battery pack and walking away? Much of the reason why catalytic converter theft is so widespread is that it’s quick and easy. Not so for swiping an EV battery.
    - DFHippie 4y ago
      Underneath a Tesla, and I imagine other EVs with similarly located batteries, there is a titanium plate. It is there to prevent road debris from penetrating the batteries and starting a fire, but it is precisely the sort of thing people install to prevent catalytic converter theft. This is setting aside a larger problem: If you're under a car nabbing a catalytic converter you can quickly cut it loose, grab it, and run. If you're under en EV and manage to break the battery pack loose after several hours work, your remains will be pinned to the ground under that car later when the police come to investigate. People won't be stealing batteries and leaving EVs stranded for the same reason they aren't stealing diesel truck motors and leaving the trucks stranded.
    - 4y ago
ctime 4y ago
I’ve armored both of my IC engine vehicles due to the local theft issues which spiked after the pandemic started. Cost about $400 per vehicle (both happen to be the top targets for thieves). I’m hoping it’s saved me the annoyance of having the part stolen, but I’m rather sad to see things degenerate to this level. Glad to see the feds really go after the crooks.
- alhirzel 4y ago
  What did you do to protect them, install a plate?
  - bagels 4y ago
    If you do it right, yes, a hardened steel plate.
  - doodlebugging 4y ago
    For mine, I used stainless steel wire rope woven all across the underside of the vehicle in a manner that would make it impossible to remove a catalytic converter if they cut it off without also having to cut most of the wire rope. This method prevents heat buildup that could occur if you use a steel or aluminum plate to conceal it while adding enough complexity to the removal that you make it more likely that they are discovered in the process. Most of these thieves are trying to get in and out ASAP. So far it has worked. That is either because the vehicle has not been targeted (most likely case) or because the thieves saw who may have targeted it realized that there were easier vehicles to hit parked nearby (not unlikely but certainly less likely).
ck2 4y ago
A huge part of problem if not the entire trigger is someone is looking the other way when buying them. There is no way in hell the buyers don't know the volume and source is complete wrong and criminal. If no-one is buying they won't be stolen.
- Melting_Harps 4y ago
  > There is no way in hell the buyers don't know the volume and source is complete wrong and criminal. I sold my defective OEM Prius cat on EBay (I bought it knowing it was broken on my car and installed new in 2018) for parts to test how liquid the market was before I went looking for funding (post above) and doing DD and market research, it was rather easy and someone paid within two hours for the reserve price ($1000+). Shipping was the biggest headache/cost of the whole process, but the guys on ebay buy Platinum, Platinum, Rhodium are still around. While I don't deny some larger brokers at work, possibly OEMS, the fact is that everyone was grifting during covid, the stock market and real estate was soaring, corpo America (and the World) was flush wit bailout money etc... This wasn't even a blip on the radar of the billions being made.
lamontcg 4y ago
Washington State passed laws targeting businesses that would buy catalytic converters that are basically KYC laws requiring ID and other stuff. Anecdotally it seems to have reduced the number of reports on the local news blog and nextdoor.
- lostmsu 4y ago
  When did that happen? A friend of mine had one stolen from next to our place just a few months ago.
  - lamontcg 4y ago
    July 1st I think. I'm sure it didn't stop completely.
doodlebugging 4y ago
How would one go about legally selling a catalytic converter? I removed the exhaust from one of my vehicles about 15 years ago when I replaced the worn out engine and have had the old catalytic converter sitting around in my shop ever since. The catalytic converter came from a 1992 model vehicle. The whole exhaust was replaced with a custom stainless steel exhaust front to back with a 50-state compliant catalytic converter in line from a well-known California supplier. I intended to run it by the metal recycler several times but never made it and now that theft is such a huge problem I can see where just showing up with one to sell could be a problem. I still own and drive the vehicle and could probably dig up documentation for the replacement exhaust system. I'm glad to see a federal effort to stop these thefts. I had to install a cage around my kid's catalytic converter since there were thefts occurring from vehicles on their college campus.
- 1970-01-01 4y ago
  Any scrapyard will offer you cash for it, just call. OEM are worth much more, hence the rise of cat thefts.
  - doodlebugging 4y ago
    I wonder what the difference between the OEM converter from 1992 and the replacement from 2007 would be. The OEM converter is easily twice as large but the replacement is certified 50 state compliant and CARB approved from a manufacturer in California. I guess the technology improved or the ceramic composition changed.
    - aidenn0 4y ago
      Ford bet big on palladium in the 90s, so any Ford cat from an engine introduced before ~2002 is likely to have a relatively large amount of palladium in it. Some of their larger trucks have nearly 1/2 an oz, which was worth about $40 in 1992 and nearly $700 today (there was a palladium shortage during COVID and palladium briefly was over $3k/oz). My Ford was federally licensed rather than CARB, so I'm required to replace it with an OEM converter. There is no ETA on when one will be available.
ryantgtg 4y ago
Mine was stolen last week! And I was just about to sell the car. Now it’s 3-4 months before the replacement comes, and $500 deductible.
jliptzin 4y ago
Yet another reason to get an electric car
- revscat 4y ago
  No catalytic converter theft, no gas gouging, no oil changes. I read things like this and is just makes me hope more people get on board. In the meantime, I’ll be sticking with my Tesla, thanks.
  - system2 4y ago
    How do you deal with mileage anxiety and going uphill for more than 10 minutes?
    - googlryas 4y ago
      Most people only rarely do 200+ miles of driving at a time where that would be an issue.
    - revscat 4y ago
      I do not have mileage anxiety. The 300m range is way more than I usually need, and right at the edge of how far you want to drive without stopping to rest. Also, regenerative braking means you get a lot of power back when you go down the other side of a mountain.
    - jliptzin 4y ago
      I have owned an electric car for 3.5 years and never once was concerned about range
- joelcollinsdc 4y ago
  This entire thing ends up being a Tesla marketing scheme
- extraduder_ire 4y ago
  For real, this is one of the reasons my next car's going to be a diesel. No cat to steal. Also fuel efficiency, and until very recently, diesel was cheaper than petrol here due to tax reasons. (even regular. Not Ag-diesel) I'd get an electric car, if they were cheaper/available used. (road tax is based on CO2/km, so an electric one is free.)
scotty79 4y ago
I just got my Toyota car on monday after almost 5 months of it sitting in the repairshop waiting for new catalytic converter after original one was stolen. Poland.
squintychino 4y ago
They need to attack the root of the problem. Go after the recycling centers that buy these. Fine them into submission. Watch the market dry up.
- megablast 4y ago
  The root of this problem, like the root of most problems like pollution, increased deaths, noise, suburbs is cars.
  - system2 4y ago
    True. I haven't heard a Tesla's catalytic converter got stolen yet.
Joel_Mckay 4y ago
Good, an EE at our office had a new truck 3 days before thieves cut off part of the exhaust system. =/
- ridgered4 4y ago
  Around here the just went into the dealership and cut them off the new cars in the lot. Then brazenly did it with another dealership a few days later!
trynewideas 4y ago
Previously: https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/2022/08/catalytic-converter-crime-ring-indicted-in-washington-county-connected-to-thousands-of-west-coast-thefts.html https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/2022/08/catalytic-converter...
stevev 4y ago
They captured 22 individuals in the stings across the US. Probably only a few thousands more to go.
- system2 4y ago
  Some of them are in their 20s. I can't imagine myself being part of a nationwide theft ring in my 20s. What a wild life.
  - alach11 4y ago
    Can you imagine being part of a nationwide theft ring in another decade of your life?
    - system2 4y ago
      After 40s if things go south. Not that I would do it but it is better than wasting my childhood. :D
spoonjim 4y ago
Given how few people who steal catalytic converters are ever punished for it, they should give these guys extreme punishments (eg life without parole or 50 years) to make the expected value of the punishment as high as they can.
ackbar03 4y ago
Isn't gary vee the head of this theft ring? https://www.reddit.com/r/h3h3productions/comments/ul2ar5/that_gary_v_knowledge_will_have_you_three_hots/ https://www.reddit.com/r/h3h3productions/comments/ul2ar5/tha...
- bagels 4y ago
  Is this a joke? Surely he's not actually doing this and posting about it in public?
  - nanidin 4y ago
    Definitely not, thieves use electric saws.
    - ackbar03 4y ago
      Well I guess they could learn a thing or two from Gary vee
- nanidin 4y ago
  Thieves don’t use sockets though, they use saws.
anon291 4y ago
I'm not a lawyer but I was on the grand jury and I was surprised to see that in my state of oregon transporting metals (like any metal) over some limit without a license is a misdemeanor. I was surprised at the time because I didn't understand the purpose, but I get it. I think this is the law: https://oregon.public.law/statutes/ors_164.857 https://oregon.public.law/statutes/ors_164.857
ineptech 4y ago
Treating this press release like a story problem in 5th grade math, there's something off: > Last year approximately 1,600 catalytic converters were reportedly stolen in California each month, and California accounts for 37% of all catalytic converter theft claims nationwide. > The black-market price for catalytic converters can be above $1,000 each, depending on the type of vehicle and what state it is from. > Defendants ... operated DG Auto... DG Auto sold the precious metal powders it processed from California and elsewhere to a metal refinery for over $545 million. How did they make $545M in a racket whose upper limit on annual profit is a tenth of that? Perhaps that figure represents DG Auto's gross revenue, only a portion of which comes from recycling converters?
- ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago
  > > Defendants ... operated DG Auto... DG Auto sold the precious metal powders it processed from California and elsewhere to a metal refinery for over $545 million. > How did they make $545M in a racket whose upper limit on annual profit is a tenth of that? Perhaps that figure represents DG Auto's gross revenue, only a portion of which comes from recycling converters? Because the converters themselves are only worth $1k each on the black market, but apparently quite a bit more if stripped and processed further, to bare precious metal powders, which are much easier to work with.
  - ineptech 4y ago
    $1K was the high end, most of 'em cost less than that new.
    - ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago
      The police? Inflating the value of something associated with criminality so it sounds worse than it really is? It can't be. /s
- acchow 4y ago
  1) maybe they ran the ring for more than a decade? 2) 1600 is just the number reported. I’d imagine not many people report the thefts, especially if your car insurance premiums will rise (insurance companies raise premiums even if you don’t make a claim if they have information that suggests your neighborhood or places you frequent are at increased risk of theft) 3) possibly the rate of catalytic converter thefts has risen dramatically in 2022 compared to 2021
aidenn0 4y ago
Cat from my RV was stolen over a year ago and I'm still wait-listed to get a new one. Apparently since it's federally (rather than state) certified, I can't use an aftermarket one, so just gotta wait until Ford makes one for me.
pontifier 4y ago
I recently had a couple of catalytic converters stolen. I think the same guys stole about 20 grand worth of tools and scientific equipment. I have their faces and vehicle on video, but they haven't been caught. https://youtu.be/SPO5s8AZVeQ https://youtu.be/SPO5s8AZVeQ
club_tropical 4y ago
The vast majority of crime is not random, easily punishable, statistically preventable, and if you live in constant low-level fear and vigilance about your possessions, it is because you are being fleeced to benefit a constellation of client classes. You may not be able to do anything about it, but your mind can at least rest easy that it's not incompetence, it is hierarchy, and you are at the bottom. I am glad they caught this ring, of course, but this is not meaningful crimefighting. The only message it sends is: the pole to the top is a bit greasy.
thepasswordis 4y ago
Here’s how to solve this problem instantly: If your converter is stolen, and a police report is filed, that vehicle is now emissions exempt for the rest of its life and can just have a straight pipe installed. Now there’s a MASSIVE incentive on behalf of the state to solve the converter theft problem.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
technion 4y ago
Related: This viral video of a catalytic converter thief in Bankstown Australia: https://www.tiktok.com/@alfa_towing/video/7153619995958856961?is_from_webapp=v1&item_id=7153619995958856961 https://www.tiktok.com/@alfa_towing/video/715361999595885696...
tehwebguy 4y ago
Oh wow, so it wasn’t random homeless folks but actually a bazillion dollar industry? Everyone on earth fainting from surprise at the same time.
icare_1er 4y ago
What's astonishing is that pretty anything in the street can routinely get stolen with such ease, in broad daylight. Bikes, catalitycs...
chkaloon 4y ago
" and law enforcement seized millions of dollars in assets, including homes, bank accounts, cash, and luxury vehicles." - civil asset forfeiture
themadturk 4y ago
A neighbor and I had the cats stolen from our Priuses the same night in January 2021. It took over a month to get replacement parts. A real pain.

405 points by smaili 4y ago

good!

It's kinda fascinating to watch mining for precious metals go from digging tunnels, to extracting from other people's cars. I wonder if this will make a dent in how often it happens. My niece's was stolen in broad daylight.

treeman79 4y ago
Only thing that will help is serious prison sentences and the right to defend property with deadly force. Many areas of the country there is no consequences.
- ThunderSizzle 4y ago
  There's a penalty for being stolen from though in those areas that do emissions testing, since you can't pass without a working converter, and the state won't replace it for you.
  - jupp0r 4y ago
    The way these are stolen (cut out), vehicles won't be operable without replacement (or putting in a straight pipe where that's legal).
- NaturalPhallacy 4y ago
  I mean you can buy - and I wish I was kidding - armor for your car to prevent the theft: https://search.brave.com/search?q=catalytic+converter+guard https://search.brave.com/search?q=catalytic+converter+guard
- steve_adams_86 4y ago
  How do we get from catalytic converters to the right to murder so quickly?
  - TEP_Kim_Il_Sung 4y ago
    A lot of people seem to use "killing" and "murder" interchangably, though they are different in more than legal ways. A building collapsing can kill a person, as can a landslide, and an uncontrollably skidding car. A lion attacking a human and eating his organs is no murderer, and neither is that human for defending themselves by killing that lion before he can finish his attack. One human killing another does not necessarily have to be murdering them. Initiation of violence, and intent, determine the difference between killing and murder. Even self-killing and self-murder have their own words (suicide is one). Also crows; They gather in murders all the time. Please consider applying the correct word to the context you wish to discuss.
    - Nullabillity 4y ago
      GGP is talking about intentionally killing people. That's murder. Please consider applying the correct word to the context you wish to discuss.
      - spullara 4y ago
        For it to be murder it has to be unlawful.
        TEP_Kim_Il_Sung 4y ago
        Running a stoplight and making an illegal left turn into a kid running across the street, is unlwaful. Still counts as killing (legal term: manslaughter), not murder.
        spullara 4y ago
        True, but that isn't relevant. I am saying it is a necessary but not sufficient condition for it to be murder. By definition, it must be unlawful, but it also must be premeditated.
- aaomidi 4y ago
  You know how if you punish a dog, it doesn't really learn and get better? Humans are like that too. Theft is heavily correlated with the economy. Arguably it's a canary in the mine - you can very usually tell what's going to happen in the macroeconomics of an area by just following crime statistics. "Deterrence" has generally been found to be a pretty well-rooted myth. Majority of theft also happens by people who _don't actually know what the consequences are_. So just increasing them doesn't actually help. If you can show strong evidence that prison is one of the best ways of reducing crime, then sure you've convinced me (and probably plenty others).
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    If you give a dog timely and consistent corrections, it really does learn. That's literally half the battle in house-training a dog. (Yes, you try to control and arrange success and praise when the dog does the right thing, but you also correct when it does the wrong thing.)
    - cratermoon 4y ago
      Dogs are smarter than people.
      - MichaelZuo 4y ago
        Pretty odd location to write a joke.
      - PM_me_your_math 4y ago
        How's the canine space program going? Any reusable rocket bodies yet?
        sokoloff 4y ago
        Dogs did beat humans to space. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_space_dogs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_space_dogs
    - 4y ago
- nkrisc 4y ago
  Property is not worth a life. Not even the life of the person damaging it. Property can be replaced, a life can not. Besides, there’s way too much margin for error in vigilante justice. That’s why we have trials, imperfect as even they may be. They’re certainly better than empowering everyone to be judge, jury, and executioner because they thought you might be committing a property crime.
  - HarryHirsch 4y ago
    Property is not worth a life. Not even the life of the person damaging it. Have you seen the film "Bicycle Thieves"? If someone's property is his livelihood one can have sympathies for those defending it with extreme measures.
  - NaturalPhallacy 4y ago
    >Property is not worth a life. Generally speaking, no, of course not. But, if someone's breaking into your home in the middle of the night, you don't know what their intentions are to just steal some stuff or to rape and murder your family. There's a reason so many states have castle doctrine and such, and it's because there really are bad people out there.
  - pyuser583 4y ago
    It depends on the property. I have medication I need to live. If I don’t take it regularly daily, a clock starts ticking. When the time is up, I die. When I travel I treat my bags like my life. I recent had nasty run in with an airline that wanted me to check my bags. I refused to get on the plane. When I took the next flight, my checked baggage didn’t make the connection. I might have survived if I got to the ER fast enough. But those bags are my life. In developing countries, petrol means access to medicine, food, etc. “Property is more important than life” is a luxury belief for the wealthy and healthy.
    - user_7832 4y ago
      Yeah, it definitely depends on the context. If someone stole my bag from my car they'd get a few ml of insulin which is practically worthless to them, but is absolutely necessary for me. If you don't mind my asking, what medication do you take?
- adrianmonk 4y ago
  Here in Texas, the law does give the right to defend property with deadly force[1]. And lots of people have guns. We are the #1 state on the list of gun ownership[2]. And catalytic converter theft is still very common. We are the #2 state on the list of catalytic converter thefts per 100k automobiles[3]. --- [1] https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/PE/htm/PE.9.htm https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/PE/htm/PE.9.htm [2] https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/gun-ownership-rates-by-state/52/ https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/gun-ownership-rates-by-stat... [3] https://www.beenverified.com/data-analysis/catalytic-converter-theft-state-rankings/ https://www.beenverified.com/data-analysis/catalytic-convert...
  - svnpenn 4y ago
    Texas has more than double the licenses of even the second place state (Florida).
    - comex 4y ago
      Do you mean driver’s licenses? That doesn’t seem relevant if the figure is thefts per 100k automobiles.
      - svnpenn 4y ago
        https://cbsnews.com/pictures/gun-ownership-rates-by-state/52 https://cbsnews.com/pictures/gun-ownership-rates-by-state/52
      - dylan604 4y ago
        Since the conversation was about gun ownership, I read it as CCL conceal&carry license
  - userbinator 4y ago
    I wonder if that's related in any way to it also relatively common to straight-pipe in Texas.
    - 4y ago
- agentwiggles 4y ago
  I'm not killing anyone for screwing with my car, and I hope most folks feel the same way. Yes, it sucks. Yes, I'd be more than pissed. But I'm not going to murder another human for a property crime.
  - ksidudwbw 4y ago
    But for a box of chicken nuggets on the other hand..
  - PM_me_your_math 4y ago
    Self defense and defense of property is not murder. So many street trash shit on regular families just trying to get by precisely because of sympathy for dirtbags who shouldn't be drawing the same breath as normal people.
- shakezula 4y ago
  I’m a gun-owning full pro-2A believer and I absolutely disagree with killing someone over stealing a catalytic converter. For fuck’s sake, prison or murder cannot be the only two options here.
  - friend_and_foe 4y ago
    What's being discussed here is not a revenge killing, you catch someone doing it you're probably not going to gun them down, you're more likely to detain, call police and press charges, or chase them off. But if they come at you with their hacksaw... I think the proper solution to this is that car manufacturers should be required to better secure these things. Putting a thousand dollars or more in such an easy to access place, requiring people to have some of their money sitting there like that, might as well tie a bow around it and set it on the hood.
    - shakezula 4y ago
      The parent comment said > the right to defend property with deadly force. Which is not self-defense. You’re conflating the two and it’s a poor argument for taking a life over an exhaust pipe with some minerals in it. I’ve spent a lot of time under a car and I can tell you I don’t think the solution is bolting the catalytic converter down tighter.
      - friend_and_foe 4y ago
        What's the solution then?
  - PM_me_your_math 4y ago
    Heard a story of a man who was under a car, cutting out a converter when the owner snuck up on him and smashed the butt end of a rifle right into the thieves balls. The man ended up losing both his testicles. No charges were filed. I like it. Perhaps another price should be your balls cutt off with a sawzall.
- plantain 4y ago
  Why is catalytic converter theft seemingly worse in the US/UK than in Europe/AU/NZ? I think the problem is underlying societal collapse rather than consequences.
  - NaturalPhallacy 4y ago
    Hypothesis: The "war on drugs" and rampant poverty with minimal to no social safety nets. America is brutal on its poor. I know cause I grew up on food stamps and expired meat in Chemical Valley during the height of Dupont's C8 dumping. People are soul crushingly desperate, but many don't even know it doesn't have to be this bad.
    - PM_me_your_math 4y ago
      This is a joke right? Have you seen how much the USA pays in social safety nets? Also, in the absence of the war on drugs, you'd still have criminal gangs, so no, that has nothing to do with it.
  - Melting_Harps 4y ago
    > Why is catalytic converter theft seemingly worse in the US/UK than in Europe/AU/NZ? Many reasons, but chief among them are that EU is oddly really relaxed on emissions (hence diesel gate not being as big of an issue in it's own Country) and don't use the same equipment on their cars also because AU/NZ are big markets for used Japanese export vehicles that have exceeded its Shakin/Km limits in Japan and there isn't the local demand for these components as the laws don't reflect such strict standards. By contrast those cars are not legal in the US due to emissions, until they fall out of the testing period: see used the massive headache created with the post Motorex Nissan Skyline market by-laws. The UK is odd because MOT and carbon tax things play a part, but it's way easier to register a RHD car from Japan if you're outside of London, and even within it if you know where to go. But both the US and UK also have lots of poverty based crime (theft) underlying their society. Europe, but especially Germany, has many auto-manufactures writing their laws for them; and the higher ubiquity of diesel cars on the road in those markets as opposed to benzene (gasoline) means they cannot just make them all vanish without having immense backlash. So, they greese the right wheels, and things carry on: business as usual. I won't touch the other reasons, but if you really want the nitty-gritty of how relaxed EU standards are read: Faster, Higher, Farther. There is a reason it was some college kids in CA with a home-brew emission tester in a rented Tdi that butsted VW, and not the EU's climate Nazis/Green party in Baden-Wuttenburg. (I lived there and was subject to their stupid vanity based green washing laws as an environmental activist, so I can say that!)
- denkmoon 4y ago
  My country has neither of those and the stealing of catalytic converters is very uncommon. Please go right ahead though, seeing the failures of the punitive system in the US provides an exemplar of why my country should not go down that path.

Test0129 4y ago

This is happening more and more frequently in my locale. Several of my friends and many of my neighbors have had their catalytic converters stolen. It's good to see something is done. Let's hope this steamrolls into a nationwide manhunt for these criminals. They should also consider targeting and auditing shops that buy used car parts. Making it extremely difficult to fence these things will be practical and useful because they aren't sold and reused as is - the rare earth metals are extracted. Something your average criminal won't be capable of doing in their garage.

User23 4y ago
It used to be that back when local cops cared about property crime this was standard operating procedure. When I was a kid if you etched a serial number into your bike frame and parts and registered it with the local PD you were practically assured you’d get your bike back when it inevitably showed up at a pawn shop or similar.
- rydifyrhffh 4y ago
  I'm curious where you live that they don't still care tbh. In my experience police do what they're allowed that will be effective. But if you have a DA who refuses to prosecute people or you pass local laws that make doing their job in a manner that gets results impossible then they tend not to waste their time.
  - magicalist 4y ago
    If you've never experienced the indifference of a cop taking a property crime report and the complete lack of follow up, just pick a place and you can look at non-violent crime clearance rate. They really don't care.
    - rydifyrhffh 4y ago
      As it happens I experienced exactly this scenario when a homeless person broke into my house while I was asleep, stole a bunch of stuff, and then made off with my car. The cop certainly didn't solve all my problems but they were clear about what they needed to know and what I'd need to do if I wanted to hear back from the city when the person was found. If the police in your area don't care it seems far more likely that they either don't feel allowed to police effectively or they feel their efforts will be wasted.

beardog 4y ago

>The 21 defendants are charged in two separate indictments that were unsealed today in the Eastern District of California and the Northern District of Oklahoma following extensive law enforcement arrest and search operations. In addition to the indictments, over 32 search warrants were executed, and law enforcement seized millions of dollars in assets, including homes, bank accounts, cash, and luxury vehicles. I obviously don't have any sympathy for these likely criminals, but unless i misunderstand it sounds like people lost their homes (civil asset forfeiture) before being convicted of a crime which I'm not sure is something to brag about.

genmud 4y ago
I think that if you paid for your home with criminal activity you should forfeit that to repay the victims of your crimes. If your legal and illegal stuff is together, tough shit.
- DJBunnies 4y ago
  Civil forfeiture is lawless.
  - NaturalPhallacy 4y ago
    Civil forfeiture is a euphemism for theft by authorities.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > Civil forfeiture is lawless. Civil forfeiture may be unjust, but it is definitely a product of, and tightly governed by, law. It is also irrelevant to this case, in which criminal, not civil, forfeiture is sought.
- laverya 4y ago
  Right, but they should have to prove that the home was paid for with crime, and not the other way around.
  - 4y ago

notch656a 4y ago

It should be legal to run a straight-pipe if your cat gets stolen through no fault of your own. The economics incentives of the black market are there in the first place largely proximal to policy. As it stands .gov gets to light the candle from both ends, going after those failing emissions while also going after the cat thieves. Edit: Love the helpful comments though telling poor people just to move out of the city if their cat gets stolen, as if moving is easy if you can't afford to replace a cat.

solomatov 4y ago
What incentives do you mean? Catalytic converters protect all of us from harmful compounds in exhaust, and I don't see why to fight thieves we need to breathe bad air.
- TEP_Kim_Il_Sung 4y ago
  You could just go back to wearing masks. N95 are actually made to stop industrial particulates and chemicals. Just a possible alternative.
kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y ago
Move out of the city. Many rural areas don't require emissions testing, so there's no way to stop people from omitting them. Beware noise ordinances, though.
- oblib 4y ago
  As someone who lives in a rural area I and most of those who live in such places around here tend to frown on that sort of thing. We put a high very value on our clean air.
  - hprotagonist 4y ago
    until it’s time to roll coal.

scottdevries 4y ago

I wonder if the same amount of resources will be used to take down the Nationwide Bicycle Theft Ring as well.

okay_dude_321 4y ago
- lukas099 4y ago
  Where is bike theft legal?
  - okay_dude_321 4y ago
    - Jotra7 4y ago
loeg 4y ago
It’s mostly not organized. (Though there do seem to be some rings exporting high end bikes to Mexico for sale.)
cyberge99 4y ago
Doubtful. Thieves steal catalytic converters for the Rhodium in them. Rhodium is more expensive than gold per troy ounce.
gpm 4y ago
Is there a national bicycle theft ring? I have a vague impression that it's mostly small groups. Steal a few bikes, maybe swap some parts around, sell them as used bikes, repeat. This takedown seems to have been possible because there was a central group that was moving hundreds of millions of dollars of stolen goods - maybe even billions if you take "cost to manufacture" instead of "resell value". Why would a bike theft ring that centralized exist?

reducesuffering 4y ago

This theft is so costly and prevalent in my neighborhood, it's like $2,500 per 100 people. In 2 years, I've had mine stolen twice.

Melting_Harps 4y ago
> This theft is so costly and prevalent in my neighborhood, it's like $2,500 per 100 people. In 2 years, I've had mine stolen twice. Bay area? i thought i was bad in Socal, I had my Gen 2 Prius siting outside a residential area near a major university town while I was away in EU and had mine stolen. I had to junk a decently running hybrid because of this as Toyota had a shortage of them and since the Prius was designed for the California market without the Toyota stamp on the cat its an instant fail for emissions, even if the ppms are within spec with an aftermarket part: no exceptions! It's literally the most ironic thing I've experienced and I worked in the auto industry and at VW through Diesel gate! This is so wide-spread and many good cars just ended up in the scrap yard when it was an easy fix to just allow for temp smog exemption, mine still for 40+mpg with worn batteries and thus exceeded most of what is sold on the market now, but because of regulatory capture and how insurance policy works it was the most expedient albeit wasteful solution--this is what I fear AI will bring about in most cases if left to its own devises and unchecked, too. Some made it to neighboring states without this requirement (OR/AZ/NV/CO) but the issue was logistical because you'd need a temp Cat installed to drive to said state, but in early '21 you could get them for <$1000 and recovered your costs as they soared in value as gas inflation pries kicked in gear. I actually pitched this as a to a friend who was having his 1st kid at the time, he offered me funding (mid 5 figures) but I couldn't work with him due to the child so I left the idea and took off to EU instead. I had anticipated and projected healthy returns, $2k/unit after expenses, little did I know it would go to $7k+ per unit as I found my sources for the legwork: 49 state legal cats, mechanics to install, and drivers ready to go (mainly me). It's mainly what I had done at VW after all, logistically speaking. There was a total parallel economy in shield installs, part/chassis swaps and tracking devises etc... because it got worse not better. I attribute a lot of this to the issue wit unemployment payments, and general lack of help for those during covid people got desperate and would probably be foisted into this easier than before.

55555 4y ago

I may be misreading this but the margins look insane. DG Auto paid like 38 million USD for stolen converters, performed a simple extraction process, then sold the precious metals for 550 million USD. Wow.

mortenjorck 4y ago
This makes me very curious how many steps in the laundering chain you have to go before it’s no longer indefensibly obvious that something's not right with the sourcing.
- lazide 4y ago
  Usually about 3, maybe 4 tops.
fswd 4y ago
Wow. I googled DG Auto, and they even have an app for thieves to check prices. https://dgauto.app/ https://dgauto.app/ Really wish the cops would download a list of who installed this app and find their location data on top of a map of reported thefts...
- mardifoufs 4y ago
  Theft as a service, literally. You can even get them graded! Pretty good app all things considered
- insaneirish 4y ago
  > Really wish the cops would download a list of who installed this app and find their location data on top of a map of reported thefts... Uh... So, I too found the website and couldn't believe how brazen the business is. I too was surprised about the app. If I downloaded the app because I was so surprised, should my name be given to the police as part of this investigation? That's ridiculous.
  - gpm 4y ago

oblib 4y ago

I think taking down the buyers is a the best tool we have right now for this issue. And there are things we could do to make that easier, like putting a serial number on the converter on new cars and replacement parts. Requiring the make, model, and serial number of the car it was removed from, and a web site with a DB that has the ID number of cars they've been stolen from so buyers could check it. Make those who buy and sell and steal them pay for it. For new car buyers all they be paying for is the addition of the serial number. Can't add much cost to engrave those during production.

reustle 4y ago
People would grind off the serial numbers and sell them on the secondary market, or for the metals. With motorcycles, for example, motors and frames have vin numbers stamped to help prevent this, but you’ll sometimes see cheap parts for sale with the vin cleaned off.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- jakogut 4y ago
  In case anyone thinks this is cost prohibitive or the tooling is rare, a $100 battery powered grinder you can buy from Home Depot will do this in five seconds. If you have a little less money and a little more time, a $5 flat file will do the same thing in a few minutes.
  - oblib 4y ago
    You know... we already have vehicle IDs on the body, the frame, and the engine on/in our cars. Those do lead to arrest every day here in the U.S.
  - Scoundreller 4y ago
    Depends. The number stamping process does change the metal’s underlying metallurgy throughout the the metal where it was stamped. So unless you drill out the number through the entire metal (which is viable if you’re going to extract the minerals), there’s a possibility of reconstructing the serial number with some level of probability. Happens with guns. But that’s why you criminalize the trade of unmarked parts. Actually makes the prosecutor’s job easy that way rather than proving the part was actually stolen and not your retirement cat investment.

grecy 4y ago

I feel like this is exactly like going after ivory poachers instead of the buyers at the other end. Who is creating a market for stolen catalytic converters? Are the precious metals being extracted, melted down and sold? to who and where? Put THOSE people in jail for the rest of their lives and change the setup so there is in incentive for anyone to even steal one in the first place.

duskwuff 4y ago
From the press release: > They knowingly purchased stolen catalytic converters and, through a “de-canning” process, extracted the precious metal powders from the catalytic core. DG Auto sold the precious metal powders it processed from California and elsewhere to a metal refinery for over $545 million.
- grecy 4y ago
  So give the refinery a fine that is 10x their yearly profit, cripple it's leadership and make an "example" out of them. End their business, and make it clear that any metal refinery buying materials that could come from catalytic converters needs to be very, very careful and have extremely good documentation about where it actually comes from. I mean, when you're buying refined precious metal powders from inside the US, it doesn't take a genius to figure out where it's coming from.
  - rydifyrhffh 4y ago
  - cogman10 4y ago
    DG Auto is a nation wide operation. They aren't sending the contents of the cats over 1 cat at a time. It's not really reasonable to hold the refinery at fault, they were working with another major business dealing in large numbers. DG Auto is the right place to hit because they knew they were getting $38 million dollars of cats from 1 family and an unlicensed business (that family is also getting prosecuted). You wouldn't hold a refinery at fault for smelting down cars they got from a junkyard. They have no reason to suspect the junkyard is sending them stolen goods. Any resell business that deals with individuals is where the pressure belongs.

tomohawk 4y ago

1: why do we need obsolete tech like catalytic converters when there is better tech for ICE to accomplish the same thing? (answer: because the government requires catalytic converters regardless, so no motivation to replace) 2: why did it take them this long?

castratikron 4y ago
What's the alternative?
- rdtwo 4y ago
  People stealing car batteries at 7-12k a pop
  - ytdytvhxgydvhh 4y ago
    Have you seen the videos of catalytic converter thieves sliding under a vehicle, sawing it out and walking away nonchalantly with their easily-carried score in less than 2 minutes? I’ve seen multiple videos like that. Have you seen any videos of people sliding under a Tesla and somehow sawing out the ~800 pound battery pack and walking away? Much of the reason why catalytic converter theft is so widespread is that it’s quick and easy. Not so for swiping an EV battery.
  - DFHippie 4y ago
    Underneath a Tesla, and I imagine other EVs with similarly located batteries, there is a titanium plate. It is there to prevent road debris from penetrating the batteries and starting a fire, but it is precisely the sort of thing people install to prevent catalytic converter theft. This is setting aside a larger problem: If you're under a car nabbing a catalytic converter you can quickly cut it loose, grab it, and run. If you're under en EV and manage to break the battery pack loose after several hours work, your remains will be pinned to the ground under that car later when the police come to investigate. People won't be stealing batteries and leaving EVs stranded for the same reason they aren't stealing diesel truck motors and leaving the trucks stranded.
  - 4y ago

ctime 4y ago

I’ve armored both of my IC engine vehicles due to the local theft issues which spiked after the pandemic started. Cost about $400 per vehicle (both happen to be the top targets for thieves). I’m hoping it’s saved me the annoyance of having the part stolen, but I’m rather sad to see things degenerate to this level. Glad to see the feds really go after the crooks.

alhirzel 4y ago
What did you do to protect them, install a plate?
- bagels 4y ago
  If you do it right, yes, a hardened steel plate.
- doodlebugging 4y ago
  For mine, I used stainless steel wire rope woven all across the underside of the vehicle in a manner that would make it impossible to remove a catalytic converter if they cut it off without also having to cut most of the wire rope. This method prevents heat buildup that could occur if you use a steel or aluminum plate to conceal it while adding enough complexity to the removal that you make it more likely that they are discovered in the process. Most of these thieves are trying to get in and out ASAP. So far it has worked. That is either because the vehicle has not been targeted (most likely case) or because the thieves saw who may have targeted it realized that there were easier vehicles to hit parked nearby (not unlikely but certainly less likely).

ck2 4y ago

A huge part of problem if not the entire trigger is someone is looking the other way when buying them. There is no way in hell the buyers don't know the volume and source is complete wrong and criminal. If no-one is buying they won't be stolen.

Melting_Harps 4y ago
> There is no way in hell the buyers don't know the volume and source is complete wrong and criminal. I sold my defective OEM Prius cat on EBay (I bought it knowing it was broken on my car and installed new in 2018) for parts to test how liquid the market was before I went looking for funding (post above) and doing DD and market research, it was rather easy and someone paid within two hours for the reserve price ($1000+). Shipping was the biggest headache/cost of the whole process, but the guys on ebay buy Platinum, Platinum, Rhodium are still around. While I don't deny some larger brokers at work, possibly OEMS, the fact is that everyone was grifting during covid, the stock market and real estate was soaring, corpo America (and the World) was flush wit bailout money etc... This wasn't even a blip on the radar of the billions being made.

lamontcg 4y ago

Washington State passed laws targeting businesses that would buy catalytic converters that are basically KYC laws requiring ID and other stuff. Anecdotally it seems to have reduced the number of reports on the local news blog and nextdoor.

lostmsu 4y ago
When did that happen? A friend of mine had one stolen from next to our place just a few months ago.
- lamontcg 4y ago
  July 1st I think. I'm sure it didn't stop completely.

doodlebugging 4y ago

How would one go about legally selling a catalytic converter? I removed the exhaust from one of my vehicles about 15 years ago when I replaced the worn out engine and have had the old catalytic converter sitting around in my shop ever since. The catalytic converter came from a 1992 model vehicle. The whole exhaust was replaced with a custom stainless steel exhaust front to back with a 50-state compliant catalytic converter in line from a well-known California supplier. I intended to run it by the metal recycler several times but never made it and now that theft is such a huge problem I can see where just showing up with one to sell could be a problem. I still own and drive the vehicle and could probably dig up documentation for the replacement exhaust system. I'm glad to see a federal effort to stop these thefts. I had to install a cage around my kid's catalytic converter since there were thefts occurring from vehicles on their college campus.

1970-01-01 4y ago
Any scrapyard will offer you cash for it, just call. OEM are worth much more, hence the rise of cat thefts.
- doodlebugging 4y ago
  I wonder what the difference between the OEM converter from 1992 and the replacement from 2007 would be. The OEM converter is easily twice as large but the replacement is certified 50 state compliant and CARB approved from a manufacturer in California. I guess the technology improved or the ceramic composition changed.
  - aidenn0 4y ago
    Ford bet big on palladium in the 90s, so any Ford cat from an engine introduced before ~2002 is likely to have a relatively large amount of palladium in it. Some of their larger trucks have nearly 1/2 an oz, which was worth about $40 in 1992 and nearly $700 today (there was a palladium shortage during COVID and palladium briefly was over $3k/oz). My Ford was federally licensed rather than CARB, so I'm required to replace it with an OEM converter. There is no ETA on when one will be available.

ryantgtg 4y ago

Mine was stolen last week! And I was just about to sell the car. Now it’s 3-4 months before the replacement comes, and $500 deductible.

jliptzin 4y ago

Yet another reason to get an electric car

revscat 4y ago
No catalytic converter theft, no gas gouging, no oil changes. I read things like this and is just makes me hope more people get on board. In the meantime, I’ll be sticking with my Tesla, thanks.
- system2 4y ago
  How do you deal with mileage anxiety and going uphill for more than 10 minutes?
  - googlryas 4y ago
    Most people only rarely do 200+ miles of driving at a time where that would be an issue.
  - revscat 4y ago
    I do not have mileage anxiety. The 300m range is way more than I usually need, and right at the edge of how far you want to drive without stopping to rest. Also, regenerative braking means you get a lot of power back when you go down the other side of a mountain.
  - jliptzin 4y ago
    I have owned an electric car for 3.5 years and never once was concerned about range
joelcollinsdc 4y ago
This entire thing ends up being a Tesla marketing scheme
extraduder_ire 4y ago
For real, this is one of the reasons my next car's going to be a diesel. No cat to steal. Also fuel efficiency, and until very recently, diesel was cheaper than petrol here due to tax reasons. (even regular. Not Ag-diesel) I'd get an electric car, if they were cheaper/available used. (road tax is based on CO2/km, so an electric one is free.)

scotty79 4y ago

I just got my Toyota car on monday after almost 5 months of it sitting in the repairshop waiting for new catalytic converter after original one was stolen. Poland.

squintychino 4y ago

They need to attack the root of the problem. Go after the recycling centers that buy these. Fine them into submission. Watch the market dry up.

megablast 4y ago
The root of this problem, like the root of most problems like pollution, increased deaths, noise, suburbs is cars.
- system2 4y ago
  True. I haven't heard a Tesla's catalytic converter got stolen yet.

Joel_Mckay 4y ago

Good, an EE at our office had a new truck 3 days before thieves cut off part of the exhaust system. =/

ridgered4 4y ago
Around here the just went into the dealership and cut them off the new cars in the lot. Then brazenly did it with another dealership a few days later!

trynewideas 4y ago

Previously: https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/2022/08/catalytic-converter-crime-ring-indicted-in-washington-county-connected-to-thousands-of-west-coast-thefts.html https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/2022/08/catalytic-converter...

stevev 4y ago

They captured 22 individuals in the stings across the US. Probably only a few thousands more to go.

system2 4y ago
Some of them are in their 20s. I can't imagine myself being part of a nationwide theft ring in my 20s. What a wild life.
- alach11 4y ago
  Can you imagine being part of a nationwide theft ring in another decade of your life?
  - system2 4y ago
    After 40s if things go south. Not that I would do it but it is better than wasting my childhood. :D

spoonjim 4y ago

Given how few people who steal catalytic converters are ever punished for it, they should give these guys extreme punishments (eg life without parole or 50 years) to make the expected value of the punishment as high as they can.

ackbar03 4y ago

Isn't gary vee the head of this theft ring? https://www.reddit.com/r/h3h3productions/comments/ul2ar5/that_gary_v_knowledge_will_have_you_three_hots/ https://www.reddit.com/r/h3h3productions/comments/ul2ar5/tha...

bagels 4y ago
Is this a joke? Surely he's not actually doing this and posting about it in public?
- nanidin 4y ago
  Definitely not, thieves use electric saws.
  - ackbar03 4y ago
    Well I guess they could learn a thing or two from Gary vee
nanidin 4y ago
Thieves don’t use sockets though, they use saws.

anon291 4y ago

I'm not a lawyer but I was on the grand jury and I was surprised to see that in my state of oregon transporting metals (like any metal) over some limit without a license is a misdemeanor. I was surprised at the time because I didn't understand the purpose, but I get it. I think this is the law: https://oregon.public.law/statutes/ors_164.857 https://oregon.public.law/statutes/ors_164.857

ineptech 4y ago

Treating this press release like a story problem in 5th grade math, there's something off: > Last year approximately 1,600 catalytic converters were reportedly stolen in California each month, and California accounts for 37% of all catalytic converter theft claims nationwide. > The black-market price for catalytic converters can be above $1,000 each, depending on the type of vehicle and what state it is from. > Defendants ... operated DG Auto... DG Auto sold the precious metal powders it processed from California and elsewhere to a metal refinery for over $545 million. How did they make $545M in a racket whose upper limit on annual profit is a tenth of that? Perhaps that figure represents DG Auto's gross revenue, only a portion of which comes from recycling converters?

ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago
> > Defendants ... operated DG Auto... DG Auto sold the precious metal powders it processed from California and elsewhere to a metal refinery for over $545 million. > How did they make $545M in a racket whose upper limit on annual profit is a tenth of that? Perhaps that figure represents DG Auto's gross revenue, only a portion of which comes from recycling converters? Because the converters themselves are only worth $1k each on the black market, but apparently quite a bit more if stripped and processed further, to bare precious metal powders, which are much easier to work with.
- ineptech 4y ago
  $1K was the high end, most of 'em cost less than that new.
  - ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago
    The police? Inflating the value of something associated with criminality so it sounds worse than it really is? It can't be. /s
acchow 4y ago
1) maybe they ran the ring for more than a decade? 2) 1600 is just the number reported. I’d imagine not many people report the thefts, especially if your car insurance premiums will rise (insurance companies raise premiums even if you don’t make a claim if they have information that suggests your neighborhood or places you frequent are at increased risk of theft) 3) possibly the rate of catalytic converter thefts has risen dramatically in 2022 compared to 2021

aidenn0 4y ago

Cat from my RV was stolen over a year ago and I'm still wait-listed to get a new one. Apparently since it's federally (rather than state) certified, I can't use an aftermarket one, so just gotta wait until Ford makes one for me.

pontifier 4y ago

I recently had a couple of catalytic converters stolen. I think the same guys stole about 20 grand worth of tools and scientific equipment. I have their faces and vehicle on video, but they haven't been caught. https://youtu.be/SPO5s8AZVeQ https://youtu.be/SPO5s8AZVeQ

club_tropical 4y ago

The vast majority of crime is not random, easily punishable, statistically preventable, and if you live in constant low-level fear and vigilance about your possessions, it is because you are being fleeced to benefit a constellation of client classes. You may not be able to do anything about it, but your mind can at least rest easy that it's not incompetence, it is hierarchy, and you are at the bottom. I am glad they caught this ring, of course, but this is not meaningful crimefighting. The only message it sends is: the pole to the top is a bit greasy.

thepasswordis 4y ago

Here’s how to solve this problem instantly: If your converter is stolen, and a police report is filed, that vehicle is now emissions exempt for the rest of its life and can just have a straight pipe installed. Now there’s a MASSIVE incentive on behalf of the state to solve the converter theft problem.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

technion 4y ago

Related: This viral video of a catalytic converter thief in Bankstown Australia: https://www.tiktok.com/@alfa_towing/video/7153619995958856961?is_from_webapp=v1&item_id=7153619995958856961 https://www.tiktok.com/@alfa_towing/video/715361999595885696...

tehwebguy 4y ago

Oh wow, so it wasn’t random homeless folks but actually a bazillion dollar industry? Everyone on earth fainting from surprise at the same time.

icare_1er 4y ago

What's astonishing is that pretty anything in the street can routinely get stolen with such ease, in broad daylight. Bikes, catalitycs...

chkaloon 4y ago

" and law enforcement seized millions of dollars in assets, including homes, bank accounts, cash, and luxury vehicles." - civil asset forfeiture

themadturk 4y ago

A neighbor and I had the cats stolen from our Priuses the same night in January 2021. It took over a month to get replacement parts. A real pain.