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California man fined for selling maps of property boundaries without a license

351 points by hampelm 4y ago

sleepytimetea 4y ago
The title of this post is too mild - it's not just the $1000 fine but the fact that they are asking for the shutdown of his business, one that he has run for many years. It's ridiculously broad legally and needs to be struck down.
lxe 4y ago
Reminds me of that "Engineer fined for saying he's an engineer". (https://www.vice.com/en/article/vvapy4/man-fined-dollar500-for-crime-of-writing-i-am-an-engineer-in-an-email-to-the-government https://www.vice.com/en/article/vvapy4/man-fined-dollar500-f...) debacle a few years back There are times when a certification is a good idea, where safety is a concern for example. In these cases it seems it's just salty "engineering" boards that want to hold on to their archaic ways of doing things.
- robocat 4y ago
  He won his federal court case: https://ij.org/press-release/oregon-engineer-wins-traffic-light-timing-lawsuit/ https://ij.org/press-release/oregon-engineer-wins-traffic-li...
  - Helmut10001 4y ago
    I have a Diploma in Landscape Architecture, but I am not allowed to call myself "Landscape Architect" until I join the "Association of German Landscape Architects" (BDLA) (and pay a monthly fee). I think it is a fairly common concept.
    - Consultant32452 4y ago
      The purpose of these types of regulations are to increase the barrier to entry for the poor, usually immigrants or other minorities. You're right that it's a common concept, but let's not pretend that the primary function is anything about consumer protection.
      - lxe 4y ago
        Not always true. I'm guessing the whole racist barrier entry is just one way to abuse these, but I doubt that's their primary function. Besides, sometimes it's very useful to have certifications. I'd rather get my brain operated on by someone with lots of credentials. Still, in most cases it's an incumbent industry barrier, nothing more. For example I don't understand why there's a "cosmetology certification". And don't even get me started on the racket that is a "teacher credential"
        Consultant32452 4y ago
        There is a big difference between wanting service providers with credentials and laws written by lobbyists that require specific credentials offered by a monopoly. Even if such laws/certifications are not corrupt from the start the industry has every incentive to corrupt it and it's just a matter of time. Kosher food is a great example of private certification.
    - robocat 4y ago
      What are the differences between a Landscape Architect and a Landscape Designer?
metadat 4y ago
> Crownholm, who is the founder of MySitePlan.com, a website that allows people to purchase informal maps for their property drawn from preexisting information and images, was issued a citation from the California Board for Professional Engineers, Land Surveyors, and Geologists, who claimed that Crownholm and the site were illegally practicing land surveying without a license. If the maps are marketed as "informal", how do they have a valid case against him? This carries the stench of abusive protectionist harassment, leveraging massive Board resources against an individual. What am I overlooking?
- naikrovek 4y ago
  you are overlooking the motives of a power-tripping California Board for Professional Engineers member, is what you are overlooking. those people (power-tripping people) do not make decisions based on intelligence or good judgement; they have the power to enforce a rule and they are going to enforce it no matter what the consequences are. if you think this is not possible or is unlikely, I recommend you work in a small office somewhere for a year. even the slightest hint of an idea that a person has power over you will often make that person absolutely drunk with power. what this Engineering organization is trying to do was tried a few years ago by some other Engineer organization somewhere and the engineer organization in question said something to the effect of "only engineers are allowed to do this, and we say who gets to call themselves engineers" and they lost quite resoundingly. it was wonderful, truly. in that state and that field, neither of which I can remember now (getting old) anyone can say they are an engineer and be hired to do the work that this organization for engineers controlled for so long. they got a big head, they squeezed the wrong person, and they lost it all in court. they no longer are able to control who can call themselves an engineer; the state redefined it as "one who practices engineering" or something like that. I hope that happens in this case as well.
  - faeriechangling 4y ago
    I presume this is the same type of person who tries to outlaw people calling themselves "software engineers"
Someone1234 4y ago
The biggest difference between an official site survey and you (or him) doing it themselves is liability. It is pretty clear from the language on the site that they aren't accepting legal liability and are just a convenience over doing it yourself using Google Maps or a tape-measure. I think the article is very well argued, and if this board's closure notice is allowed to stand then it will infringe on Californian's right to simply draw a map of their home or business. His business isn't offering site surveys and doesn't proclaim to, and to be honest even Google Maps/Bing/Apple could be at risk if this board's ability to close/ban this were allowed (they do show property boundaries after all). The biggest problem they're going to run into is: Who has deeper pockets? Since often in the US legal system that can decide the winner/loser.
- voisin 4y ago
  > The biggest problem they're going to run into is: Who has deeper pockets? Since often in the US legal system that can decide the winner/loser. Seems like the big mapping companies you mention should file amicus briefs in his favour.
- geenew 4y ago
  I largely agree with you, but it may be a situation where a disclaimer on the plans themselves would assuage the professional board. The site itself includes a disclaimer (“THIS IS NOT A LEGAL SURVEY, NOR IS IT INTENDED TO BE OR REPLACE ONE.” ). However, at least on the sample plans the site shows[1][2], there does not seem to be any disclaimer. A reasonable person may be mislead into thinking that the plans produced by that website are legal surveys - they have the appearance of a typical surveyor/engineer produced CAD drawing. In all the engineering drawings I've seen, the title block is essentially your only way of ensuring contextual information is always associated with the drawing. Including relevant disclaimers in the title block is critical. If the sample drawings shown are representative of the output of the site, they could do a better job by including reasonable disclaimers on each drawing. [1] https://www.mysiteplan.com/en-ca/products/simple-plot-plan?variant=386897576 https://www.mysiteplan.com/en-ca/products/simple-plot-plan?v... [2] https://www.mysiteplan.com/products/plot-plan-showing-structures-tree-and-vegetation?variant=386904444 https://www.mysiteplan.com/products/plot-plan-showing-struct...
chris_wot 4y ago
Sounds like a jumped up petty bureaucrat decided to flex their muscles, and have now landed their department in a world of pain. When will these people learn?
- encryptluks2 4y ago
  When people realize their own independence.
  - tomrod 4y ago
    1791 bill of rights baby!
  - Stamp01 4y ago
    Careful. Think too hard about this and you'll question the concept of owning land in the first place. Then the whole thing falls apart.
bri3d 4y ago
This really feels like a "spirit of the law" vs "letter of the law" situation - requiring that only a licensed surveyor "depict the location of property lines" seems totally reasonable as to prevent the "location of property lines" from eroding legally, but banning a site loaded with "THIS IS NOT A SURVEY" disclaimers does not. A discrepancy between requirements from building departments and planning and platting departments is par for the course. Everywhere I have ever lived, the building department will accept an informal description of boundaries to determine whether or not a plan interferes with setback requirements, while a planning department or platting recorder will demand an officially certified survey to determine the actual parcel boundaries. I think this site's "If your building department DOES NOT require a Surveyor, Engineer, or Architect Stamp our plans are just what you need!" disclaimer is quite spot-on and it is rather frustrating that they are getting targeted. My own county (Boulder County, CO) offer a county-sponsored GIS service which is not surveyor-approved, with similar disclaimers. My surveyed parcel at my current household differed from their assessment by 5% and at my last household, by 10%. While this is a significant number, for building purposes, it isn't unreasonable - just a few degrees either way in the projection of edges. I think these sites should be allowed to stand with the acceptance that a suit based on the material contained in these sites would be bogus.
- LorenPechtel 4y ago
  It sounds to me like what the law intends to say is that only professionals can actually draw the property lines--a quite reasonable restriction because a mistake can be hidden and expensive. However, it seems to me that what he's doing is simply taking the existing legal documentation and converting it to a 2D printout.
  - empyrrhicist 4y ago
    So Zillow should be banned? Informal drawings of property lines are useful and "good enough", and giving a monopoly on that to surveyors would be silly.
    - LorenPechtel 4y ago
evilotto 4y ago
I think the problem is that he's selling the maps as a service. A homeowner doing it for themself is different from hiring a professional service to do it.
- bsimpson 4y ago
  "Professional" is a tricky word here. Colloquially, it means "I get paid money to do this thing." Legally, it means "I am an accredited member of a guild that restricts access to my trade" - think doctors, lawyers, etc. If there's a board/bar type association that gives you permission to make your money, then you're a professional (legally speaking). The problem in this case is that there are relevant professionals (surveyors/engineers) who are trying to protect their monopoly on…drawing lines on maps. He shouldn't have let himself be quoted as a "professional tracing company." That's a load-bearing word in this context.
  - noasaservice 4y ago
    Professional ONLY means you take money for a good or service. There is no assumption to the quality of service or good. The other term is "amateur". That is not related to profit or renumeration. Amateur does not mean unskilled. Amateur radio is full of highly skilled and expert people.... Who are forbidden from taking renumeration for radio services.
    - bsimpson 4y ago
      Whooooaaa, you missed the whole point! You can read the Wikipedia pages on professional and profession if you don't trust my memory. (One of my general ed classes was on the history of professions.) The word "professional," as used by bodies like The California Board of Professional Engineers, strictly means someone who is board-certified to practice that profession. (There are a bunch of requirements to get that certification and become a professional, but the specifics aren't important here.) It has nothing to do with whether or not someone accepted money and everything to do with acquiring and maintaining the credentials legally required to enter a regulated line of work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profession https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profession
carom 4y ago
Laughable because LA City's system, Zimas, has property lines so poorly drawn over their satellite / aerial imagery. It is some simple alignment issue that puts your property line in your neighbors driveway, or your neighbors easement fully on their property. The sad thing is, this translates into surveys. Now my neighbors and I have completely nonsensical stamps in the ground that we have to figure out how to correct. Sad thing is, it lines up in their 2001 imagery, but 2017 is off by a few feet.
- defrost 4y ago
  > The sad thing is, this translates into surveys. Now my neighbors and I have completely nonsensical stamps in the ground that we have to figure out how to correct. Are these "stamps in the grounds" actual survey pegs placed by licenced surveyors working from the official Lands & survey database after having triangulated from previously placed officvial survey pegs? Misalignment of geomosaiced air photo images | poor rectification is one thing (and not altogether uncommon) but that's a world away from ground based triangulated surveying backed by dual GPS against ground station modern survey techniques (which extend from a time before air photo surveys became common).
  - wyclif 4y ago
    Ex-land surveyor here. They're called corner monuments or property corners. However, in residential areas they are usually not concrete monuments but rather a piece of iron rebar: https://www.cardinalsurveying.com/property-corner-markers/ https://www.cardinalsurveying.com/property-corner-markers/
    - defrost 4y ago
      I'm familiar with monuments | pegs, I'm hoping the commenter clarifies their statement about "stamps" on their property. I'm not clear whether their complaint is entirely about airphotos and GIS lines not being rectified (annoying but not critical) or if they're actually claiming that visual misalignment of two seperate data sets has caused monuments to have been incorrectly placed. Here (W.Australia) that wouldn't happen. FWiW many years back I contributed code to software in this field ( https://download.hexagongeospatial.com/en/downloads/imagine/erdas-er-mapper-2022 https://download.hexagongeospatial.com/en/downloads/imagine/... )
notatoad 4y ago
it seems to me that the real problem here is that the "california board for professional engineers, land surveyors, and geologists" has any power at all to issue fines to non-members. professional organizations should govern their own members, but not random other people. if california wants to make a law that you have to have a site survey done by a member of that organization, that's one thing. but for the board to be able to issue fines to people who aren't professional surveyors seems like a gross overreach.
- laristine 4y ago
  Typically, these associations and boards are private and should not have power beyond their membership. However, this particular "Board for Professional Engineers, Land Surveyors, and Geologists" of California is part of the government, which unfortunately has power. https://www.bpelsg.ca.gov https://www.bpelsg.ca.gov
  - syrrim 4y ago
    In most places, such an organization would be given some power by the government to prevent non-members from practicing engineering etc.
yieldcrv 4y ago
I would like to see these challenges happen more often I think there is a fundamental limitation in US society that the only people that can challenge laws are the people that are damaged by them. You can't just look at the law in passing and take these exact obvious arguments to court because you have a little free time and money. You need free time, money, and a whole government agency coming after you trying to take all of your free time and money! What kind of power dynamic is that!? We need a more comprehensive check and balance to get these laws in front of courts way earlier than that. I have some ideas if anyone is interested.
- dane-pgp 4y ago
  > I have some ideas if anyone is interested. I'm a little interested, if you want to share a follow-up comment, but I had an idea of my own that I wanted to share too. My vague understanding is that in international law, there is a mechanism by which, in theory, a nation can take up the grievance of an individual citizen and elevate that issue into a case that the nation itself has an interest in, which is then subject to the international legal processes that exists between nations. Applying this principle within a nation, would mean that individual sub-national units (i.e. states, in the case of the US) would have standing to bring cases against other states or the federal government to the Supreme Court on behalf of individual citizens, even those resident in other states (presumably with the check and balance that the state legislature or executive bringing the case has to agree that the citizen's grievance was worth wasting their own state's tax payers' money to fight). Of course this could lead to a tidal wave of unnecessary culture-war lawsuits being filed, as blue states and red states tried to undermine each other's laws, but I think that objection is somewhat misdirected. The real problem would be either that courts are understaffed / underfunded, or that it's somehow good that only the richest people with the most time on their hands can afford to challenge unconstitutional laws. Neither of those are really good reasons for disallowing the mechanism that I'm suggesting.
  - yieldcrv 4y ago
    That could be an okay stop-gap solution if consensus couldn't be reached on new laws, since conflicts between states have original jurisdiction with the Supreme Court. A concept that I heard about in at least one other country is that Governors and Presidents have an additional option when the legislature passes a bill to their desk. Instead of "sign" or "veto", there is at least an additional option of punting it directly to the constitutional court. (Another tweak is that the constitutional court is not simultaneously an appellate court.) and then of course is what I observed about who can have standing to bring something to the courts at all. I think one shouldn't need to be harmed already to bring a case to review.
thehappypm 4y ago
This seems crazy. If I wanted to hire someone to survey my house to help me plan a renovation, to get a town permit, I’d need a licensed engineer to make the drawing. If I was DIYing it, I would absolutely feel comfortable hiring someone unlicensed to get a good-enough drawing. Making it illegal to get an informal survey of land sounds insane.
- maxsilver 4y ago
  > Making it illegal to get an informal survey of land sounds insane. It's not illegal to get an informal survey of land. It's illegal to pass a fake one off as legal, which is what is commonly happening with his "drawings". "Taking a picture of yourself" and "writing your name and address on it" are legal, but if you open a Fake Drivers License business, you should expect to get hassled about it. A tiny line of text reading "this is not a real license and should not be used as one" shouldn't absolve you of all responsibility for your product.
  - thehappypm 4y ago
    That makes sense. It is kinda like fireworks stores over state borders in a way. Technically it’s legal, but everyone knows.
  - jjk166 4y ago
    That's not what is happening at all. A card with your name, address, and picture on it but absolutely none of the official things that make it a license is not a license, and there is nothing illegal about making them. I have quite a few ID cards from various private organizations - no issue. If the guy were placing a "decorative but in no way meant to be real" stamp on his surveys, that would be one thing, but without any stamp at all it's as clearly unofficial as any other piece of paper.
hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
Texas state politics/law is completely f'd in so many ways, but one thing they do that I think is fantastic, and I wish all states did, was have a "Sunset Review Commission", https://www.sunset.texas.gov/how-sunset-works https://www.sunset.texas.gov/how-sunset-works. Basically, all agencies that are authorized by the legislature are set to automatically be abolished in (usually) 12 years. Once the expiration date is near, the Sunset Commission reviews the agency and recommends whether to reauthorize it, in which case the legislature must pass a law to reauthorize, but the "default" is that the agency expires. This really helps fight the natural tendency of lots of these professional agencies to grow to protect their own power, regardless of their original purpose. And even if agencies are normally always renewed, the review process itself is really useful to, when necessary, smack these agencies upside the head to get them back to their original goal. One example I'm familiar with, a couple years ago the Sunset Commission basically tore the Texas Veterinary Board a new one after they decided to go after animal shelter vets for trying to save animals with extremely limited resources, https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/One-third-of-state-veterinary-board-resigns-10784396.php https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/One-third-of... - actual report at https://www.sunset.texas.gov/public/uploads/files/reports/State%20Board%20of%20Veterinary%20Medical%20Examiners%20Staff%20Report%20with%20Final%20Results_6-21-17.pdf https://www.sunset.texas.gov/public/uploads/files/reports/St...
- bsder 4y ago
  Counterexample: corrupt things like the Texas Railroad Commission or Public Utility Commission that get reauthorized every single time. All sunset laws do is turn state agencies into lobbying and patronage companies.
  - jxramos 4y ago
    I guess out of sight out of mind would apply here. Even if rubber stamped repeatedly maybe it will present an opportunity to catch the eye of some inquisitive type to ask why?
  - JamesianP 4y ago
    counterpoint: the good is not perfect therefore it is bad.
fargle 4y ago
It's not unusual for states to have legislation to restrict the definition and practice of "Professional Engineer's" (capital P, capital E) and other "Professions" such as Doctors, etc. However, that does not mean you cannot call yourself an "engineer" (lowercase E) because you write software or drive model trains. The issue in this case is that the article is quite correct (IANAL, but this is still my legal opinion - lower case O - to which I am allowed) the definition of Land Surveying Defined is way WAY overbroad and that's the understatement of the year. https://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/laws/pls_act.pdf https://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/laws/pls_act.pdf 8726 (a)(2) Determines the configuration or contour of the earth’s surface, or the position of fixed objects above, on, or below the surface of the earth by applying the principles of mathematics or photogrammetry. So if you perform or offer to perform a service (publicly or privately) of locating fixed things using math or pictures you are performing Land Surveying. HAHAHHAHAHAA Bullshit. I hope he has enough resources to trounce this bad law. He'll win if he can pay to fight it.
- pishpash 4y ago
  "Determines the configuration or contour of the earth’s surface, or the position of fixed objects above, on, or below the surface of the earth by applying the principles of mathematics or photogrammetry." lol yeah. Also notice that this 2022 version of the act seems to have the sole purpose of rearranging bullets and changing gender pronouns. What a great use of legislative time in California!
collegeburner 4y ago
"oi m8, let's see ya property loicense!"
jwr 4y ago
How is this not public information, available to everyone on the Internet? I'm baffled why anyone would even need to pay for this, much less why someone would be fined for selling this information. In my country, you go to a web site with a map (with dozens of switchable layers), which has pretty much everything: property lines, infrastructure, etc.
- empyrrhicist 4y ago
  We have that in many places in the US as well. My county has an official GIS site that works great. I did need to get a survey to confirm for sure where the property line fell, but for most things it's really helpful.
Stratoscope 4y ago
Oh my. I was about to commit the same crime myself. We had an ADU built on the property a few years ago. Google Maps and OSM don't show it, only the main house. Even worse, there is some confusion about the street address. We are on the corner of Foobar Road and Barfoo Avenue. The original address was on one of those streets, but a previous owner changed it from that one to the other. Some utilities think we are on Foobar, others on Barfoo. I was going to contact those utilities, the various online maps, and the city building office to try to get all this straightened out. But legal trouble is the last thing I need right now. I guess I should just leave everything in its current incorrect and confusing state.
- jrootabega 4y ago
  Were you going to provide these services or products on the open market, where people could reasonably interpret your products and services as legally valid for their own purposes?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
joxel 4y ago
The real question is how is this a legitimate business? Literally just providing GIS data that is publically available for a fee? BRB quitting my job to make money doing nothing and separating idiots from their money.
readme 4y ago
i hadn't heard about this guy until he got a fine that 1000 is a small price to pay for this advertising
iso1631 4y ago
Crazy. Here in the UK most properties have boundaries you can also find out who owns it for a nominal fee. (For unregistered land it's not that you can't have the data for free, it's that the data doesn't really exist) Presumably the government is the arbitrator of who owns the land, surely in the US that makes it public domain? (That said in the UK I get the feeling it's only free [0] because it came from an EU Directive) [0] https://use-land-property-data.service.gov.uk/datasets/inspire/download https://use-land-property-data.service.gov.uk/datasets/inspi...
crtified 4y ago
The law here is clearly overly vague and needs clarifying, but so too does the source of data on published maps. A map to be shared, particularly for any legal or regulatory purpose, should include a note stating the source(s) of the data depicted. The source could be a surveyor, or it could be Google Maps, or a particular GIS database, or whatever, but provided the data source is clearly stated, then potentially damaging ambiguity is minimized, and a clear paper trail as to accuracy and reliability is established.

351 points by hampelm 4y ago

The title of this post is too mild - it's not just the $1000 fine but the fact that they are asking for the shutdown of his business, one that he has run for many years. It's ridiculously broad legally and needs to be struck down.

lxe 4y ago

Reminds me of that "Engineer fined for saying he's an engineer". (https://www.vice.com/en/article/vvapy4/man-fined-dollar500-for-crime-of-writing-i-am-an-engineer-in-an-email-to-the-government https://www.vice.com/en/article/vvapy4/man-fined-dollar500-f...) debacle a few years back There are times when a certification is a good idea, where safety is a concern for example. In these cases it seems it's just salty "engineering" boards that want to hold on to their archaic ways of doing things.

robocat 4y ago
He won his federal court case: https://ij.org/press-release/oregon-engineer-wins-traffic-light-timing-lawsuit/ https://ij.org/press-release/oregon-engineer-wins-traffic-li...
- Helmut10001 4y ago
  I have a Diploma in Landscape Architecture, but I am not allowed to call myself "Landscape Architect" until I join the "Association of German Landscape Architects" (BDLA) (and pay a monthly fee). I think it is a fairly common concept.
  - Consultant32452 4y ago
    The purpose of these types of regulations are to increase the barrier to entry for the poor, usually immigrants or other minorities. You're right that it's a common concept, but let's not pretend that the primary function is anything about consumer protection.
    - lxe 4y ago
      Not always true. I'm guessing the whole racist barrier entry is just one way to abuse these, but I doubt that's their primary function. Besides, sometimes it's very useful to have certifications. I'd rather get my brain operated on by someone with lots of credentials. Still, in most cases it's an incumbent industry barrier, nothing more. For example I don't understand why there's a "cosmetology certification". And don't even get me started on the racket that is a "teacher credential"
      - Consultant32452 4y ago
        There is a big difference between wanting service providers with credentials and laws written by lobbyists that require specific credentials offered by a monopoly. Even if such laws/certifications are not corrupt from the start the industry has every incentive to corrupt it and it's just a matter of time. Kosher food is a great example of private certification.
  - robocat 4y ago
    What are the differences between a Landscape Architect and a Landscape Designer?

metadat 4y ago

> Crownholm, who is the founder of MySitePlan.com, a website that allows people to purchase informal maps for their property drawn from preexisting information and images, was issued a citation from the California Board for Professional Engineers, Land Surveyors, and Geologists, who claimed that Crownholm and the site were illegally practicing land surveying without a license. If the maps are marketed as "informal", how do they have a valid case against him? This carries the stench of abusive protectionist harassment, leveraging massive Board resources against an individual. What am I overlooking?

naikrovek 4y ago
you are overlooking the motives of a power-tripping California Board for Professional Engineers member, is what you are overlooking. those people (power-tripping people) do not make decisions based on intelligence or good judgement; they have the power to enforce a rule and they are going to enforce it no matter what the consequences are. if you think this is not possible or is unlikely, I recommend you work in a small office somewhere for a year. even the slightest hint of an idea that a person has power over you will often make that person absolutely drunk with power. what this Engineering organization is trying to do was tried a few years ago by some other Engineer organization somewhere and the engineer organization in question said something to the effect of "only engineers are allowed to do this, and we say who gets to call themselves engineers" and they lost quite resoundingly. it was wonderful, truly. in that state and that field, neither of which I can remember now (getting old) anyone can say they are an engineer and be hired to do the work that this organization for engineers controlled for so long. they got a big head, they squeezed the wrong person, and they lost it all in court. they no longer are able to control who can call themselves an engineer; the state redefined it as "one who practices engineering" or something like that. I hope that happens in this case as well.
- faeriechangling 4y ago
  I presume this is the same type of person who tries to outlaw people calling themselves "software engineers"

Someone1234 4y ago

The biggest difference between an official site survey and you (or him) doing it themselves is liability. It is pretty clear from the language on the site that they aren't accepting legal liability and are just a convenience over doing it yourself using Google Maps or a tape-measure. I think the article is very well argued, and if this board's closure notice is allowed to stand then it will infringe on Californian's right to simply draw a map of their home or business. His business isn't offering site surveys and doesn't proclaim to, and to be honest even Google Maps/Bing/Apple could be at risk if this board's ability to close/ban this were allowed (they do show property boundaries after all). The biggest problem they're going to run into is: Who has deeper pockets? Since often in the US legal system that can decide the winner/loser.

voisin 4y ago
> The biggest problem they're going to run into is: Who has deeper pockets? Since often in the US legal system that can decide the winner/loser. Seems like the big mapping companies you mention should file amicus briefs in his favour.
geenew 4y ago
I largely agree with you, but it may be a situation where a disclaimer on the plans themselves would assuage the professional board. The site itself includes a disclaimer (“THIS IS NOT A LEGAL SURVEY, NOR IS IT INTENDED TO BE OR REPLACE ONE.” ). However, at least on the sample plans the site shows[1][2], there does not seem to be any disclaimer. A reasonable person may be mislead into thinking that the plans produced by that website are legal surveys - they have the appearance of a typical surveyor/engineer produced CAD drawing. In all the engineering drawings I've seen, the title block is essentially your only way of ensuring contextual information is always associated with the drawing. Including relevant disclaimers in the title block is critical. If the sample drawings shown are representative of the output of the site, they could do a better job by including reasonable disclaimers on each drawing. [1] https://www.mysiteplan.com/en-ca/products/simple-plot-plan?variant=386897576 https://www.mysiteplan.com/en-ca/products/simple-plot-plan?v... [2] https://www.mysiteplan.com/products/plot-plan-showing-structures-tree-and-vegetation?variant=386904444 https://www.mysiteplan.com/products/plot-plan-showing-struct...

chris_wot 4y ago

Sounds like a jumped up petty bureaucrat decided to flex their muscles, and have now landed their department in a world of pain. When will these people learn?

encryptluks2 4y ago
When people realize their own independence.
- tomrod 4y ago
  1791 bill of rights baby!
- Stamp01 4y ago
  Careful. Think too hard about this and you'll question the concept of owning land in the first place. Then the whole thing falls apart.

bri3d 4y ago

This really feels like a "spirit of the law" vs "letter of the law" situation - requiring that only a licensed surveyor "depict the location of property lines" seems totally reasonable as to prevent the "location of property lines" from eroding legally, but banning a site loaded with "THIS IS NOT A SURVEY" disclaimers does not. A discrepancy between requirements from building departments and planning and platting departments is par for the course. Everywhere I have ever lived, the building department will accept an informal description of boundaries to determine whether or not a plan interferes with setback requirements, while a planning department or platting recorder will demand an officially certified survey to determine the actual parcel boundaries. I think this site's "If your building department DOES NOT require a Surveyor, Engineer, or Architect Stamp our plans are just what you need!" disclaimer is quite spot-on and it is rather frustrating that they are getting targeted. My own county (Boulder County, CO) offer a county-sponsored GIS service which is not surveyor-approved, with similar disclaimers. My surveyed parcel at my current household differed from their assessment by 5% and at my last household, by 10%. While this is a significant number, for building purposes, it isn't unreasonable - just a few degrees either way in the projection of edges. I think these sites should be allowed to stand with the acceptance that a suit based on the material contained in these sites would be bogus.

LorenPechtel 4y ago
It sounds to me like what the law intends to say is that only professionals can actually draw the property lines--a quite reasonable restriction because a mistake can be hidden and expensive. However, it seems to me that what he's doing is simply taking the existing legal documentation and converting it to a 2D printout.
- empyrrhicist 4y ago
  So Zillow should be banned? Informal drawings of property lines are useful and "good enough", and giving a monopoly on that to surveyors would be silly.
  - LorenPechtel 4y ago

evilotto 4y ago

I think the problem is that he's selling the maps as a service. A homeowner doing it for themself is different from hiring a professional service to do it.

bsimpson 4y ago
"Professional" is a tricky word here. Colloquially, it means "I get paid money to do this thing." Legally, it means "I am an accredited member of a guild that restricts access to my trade" - think doctors, lawyers, etc. If there's a board/bar type association that gives you permission to make your money, then you're a professional (legally speaking). The problem in this case is that there are relevant professionals (surveyors/engineers) who are trying to protect their monopoly on…drawing lines on maps. He shouldn't have let himself be quoted as a "professional tracing company." That's a load-bearing word in this context.
- noasaservice 4y ago
  Professional ONLY means you take money for a good or service. There is no assumption to the quality of service or good. The other term is "amateur". That is not related to profit or renumeration. Amateur does not mean unskilled. Amateur radio is full of highly skilled and expert people.... Who are forbidden from taking renumeration for radio services.
  - bsimpson 4y ago
    Whooooaaa, you missed the whole point! You can read the Wikipedia pages on professional and profession if you don't trust my memory. (One of my general ed classes was on the history of professions.) The word "professional," as used by bodies like The California Board of Professional Engineers, strictly means someone who is board-certified to practice that profession. (There are a bunch of requirements to get that certification and become a professional, but the specifics aren't important here.) It has nothing to do with whether or not someone accepted money and everything to do with acquiring and maintaining the credentials legally required to enter a regulated line of work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profession https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profession

carom 4y ago

Laughable because LA City's system, Zimas, has property lines so poorly drawn over their satellite / aerial imagery. It is some simple alignment issue that puts your property line in your neighbors driveway, or your neighbors easement fully on their property. The sad thing is, this translates into surveys. Now my neighbors and I have completely nonsensical stamps in the ground that we have to figure out how to correct. Sad thing is, it lines up in their 2001 imagery, but 2017 is off by a few feet.

defrost 4y ago
> The sad thing is, this translates into surveys. Now my neighbors and I have completely nonsensical stamps in the ground that we have to figure out how to correct. Are these "stamps in the grounds" actual survey pegs placed by licenced surveyors working from the official Lands & survey database after having triangulated from previously placed officvial survey pegs? Misalignment of geomosaiced air photo images | poor rectification is one thing (and not altogether uncommon) but that's a world away from ground based triangulated surveying backed by dual GPS against ground station modern survey techniques (which extend from a time before air photo surveys became common).
- wyclif 4y ago
  Ex-land surveyor here. They're called corner monuments or property corners. However, in residential areas they are usually not concrete monuments but rather a piece of iron rebar: https://www.cardinalsurveying.com/property-corner-markers/ https://www.cardinalsurveying.com/property-corner-markers/
  - defrost 4y ago
    I'm familiar with monuments | pegs, I'm hoping the commenter clarifies their statement about "stamps" on their property. I'm not clear whether their complaint is entirely about airphotos and GIS lines not being rectified (annoying but not critical) or if they're actually claiming that visual misalignment of two seperate data sets has caused monuments to have been incorrectly placed. Here (W.Australia) that wouldn't happen. FWiW many years back I contributed code to software in this field ( https://download.hexagongeospatial.com/en/downloads/imagine/erdas-er-mapper-2022 https://download.hexagongeospatial.com/en/downloads/imagine/... )

notatoad 4y ago

it seems to me that the real problem here is that the "california board for professional engineers, land surveyors, and geologists" has any power at all to issue fines to non-members. professional organizations should govern their own members, but not random other people. if california wants to make a law that you have to have a site survey done by a member of that organization, that's one thing. but for the board to be able to issue fines to people who aren't professional surveyors seems like a gross overreach.

laristine 4y ago
Typically, these associations and boards are private and should not have power beyond their membership. However, this particular "Board for Professional Engineers, Land Surveyors, and Geologists" of California is part of the government, which unfortunately has power. https://www.bpelsg.ca.gov https://www.bpelsg.ca.gov
- syrrim 4y ago
  In most places, such an organization would be given some power by the government to prevent non-members from practicing engineering etc.

yieldcrv 4y ago

I would like to see these challenges happen more often I think there is a fundamental limitation in US society that the only people that can challenge laws are the people that are damaged by them. You can't just look at the law in passing and take these exact obvious arguments to court because you have a little free time and money. You need free time, money, and a whole government agency coming after you trying to take all of your free time and money! What kind of power dynamic is that!? We need a more comprehensive check and balance to get these laws in front of courts way earlier than that. I have some ideas if anyone is interested.

dane-pgp 4y ago
> I have some ideas if anyone is interested. I'm a little interested, if you want to share a follow-up comment, but I had an idea of my own that I wanted to share too. My vague understanding is that in international law, there is a mechanism by which, in theory, a nation can take up the grievance of an individual citizen and elevate that issue into a case that the nation itself has an interest in, which is then subject to the international legal processes that exists between nations. Applying this principle within a nation, would mean that individual sub-national units (i.e. states, in the case of the US) would have standing to bring cases against other states or the federal government to the Supreme Court on behalf of individual citizens, even those resident in other states (presumably with the check and balance that the state legislature or executive bringing the case has to agree that the citizen's grievance was worth wasting their own state's tax payers' money to fight). Of course this could lead to a tidal wave of unnecessary culture-war lawsuits being filed, as blue states and red states tried to undermine each other's laws, but I think that objection is somewhat misdirected. The real problem would be either that courts are understaffed / underfunded, or that it's somehow good that only the richest people with the most time on their hands can afford to challenge unconstitutional laws. Neither of those are really good reasons for disallowing the mechanism that I'm suggesting.
- yieldcrv 4y ago
  That could be an okay stop-gap solution if consensus couldn't be reached on new laws, since conflicts between states have original jurisdiction with the Supreme Court. A concept that I heard about in at least one other country is that Governors and Presidents have an additional option when the legislature passes a bill to their desk. Instead of "sign" or "veto", there is at least an additional option of punting it directly to the constitutional court. (Another tweak is that the constitutional court is not simultaneously an appellate court.) and then of course is what I observed about who can have standing to bring something to the courts at all. I think one shouldn't need to be harmed already to bring a case to review.

thehappypm 4y ago

This seems crazy. If I wanted to hire someone to survey my house to help me plan a renovation, to get a town permit, I’d need a licensed engineer to make the drawing. If I was DIYing it, I would absolutely feel comfortable hiring someone unlicensed to get a good-enough drawing. Making it illegal to get an informal survey of land sounds insane.

maxsilver 4y ago
> Making it illegal to get an informal survey of land sounds insane. It's not illegal to get an informal survey of land. It's illegal to pass a fake one off as legal, which is what is commonly happening with his "drawings". "Taking a picture of yourself" and "writing your name and address on it" are legal, but if you open a Fake Drivers License business, you should expect to get hassled about it. A tiny line of text reading "this is not a real license and should not be used as one" shouldn't absolve you of all responsibility for your product.
- thehappypm 4y ago
  That makes sense. It is kinda like fireworks stores over state borders in a way. Technically it’s legal, but everyone knows.
- jjk166 4y ago
  That's not what is happening at all. A card with your name, address, and picture on it but absolutely none of the official things that make it a license is not a license, and there is nothing illegal about making them. I have quite a few ID cards from various private organizations - no issue. If the guy were placing a "decorative but in no way meant to be real" stamp on his surveys, that would be one thing, but without any stamp at all it's as clearly unofficial as any other piece of paper.

hn_throwaway_99 4y ago

Texas state politics/law is completely f'd in so many ways, but one thing they do that I think is fantastic, and I wish all states did, was have a "Sunset Review Commission", https://www.sunset.texas.gov/how-sunset-works https://www.sunset.texas.gov/how-sunset-works. Basically, all agencies that are authorized by the legislature are set to automatically be abolished in (usually) 12 years. Once the expiration date is near, the Sunset Commission reviews the agency and recommends whether to reauthorize it, in which case the legislature must pass a law to reauthorize, but the "default" is that the agency expires. This really helps fight the natural tendency of lots of these professional agencies to grow to protect their own power, regardless of their original purpose. And even if agencies are normally always renewed, the review process itself is really useful to, when necessary, smack these agencies upside the head to get them back to their original goal. One example I'm familiar with, a couple years ago the Sunset Commission basically tore the Texas Veterinary Board a new one after they decided to go after animal shelter vets for trying to save animals with extremely limited resources, https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/One-third-of-state-veterinary-board-resigns-10784396.php https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/One-third-of... - actual report at https://www.sunset.texas.gov/public/uploads/files/reports/State%20Board%20of%20Veterinary%20Medical%20Examiners%20Staff%20Report%20with%20Final%20Results_6-21-17.pdf https://www.sunset.texas.gov/public/uploads/files/reports/St...

bsder 4y ago
Counterexample: corrupt things like the Texas Railroad Commission or Public Utility Commission that get reauthorized every single time. All sunset laws do is turn state agencies into lobbying and patronage companies.
- jxramos 4y ago
  I guess out of sight out of mind would apply here. Even if rubber stamped repeatedly maybe it will present an opportunity to catch the eye of some inquisitive type to ask why?
- JamesianP 4y ago
  counterpoint: the good is not perfect therefore it is bad.

fargle 4y ago

It's not unusual for states to have legislation to restrict the definition and practice of "Professional Engineer's" (capital P, capital E) and other "Professions" such as Doctors, etc. However, that does not mean you cannot call yourself an "engineer" (lowercase E) because you write software or drive model trains. The issue in this case is that the article is quite correct (IANAL, but this is still my legal opinion - lower case O - to which I am allowed) the definition of Land Surveying Defined is way WAY overbroad and that's the understatement of the year. https://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/laws/pls_act.pdf https://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/laws/pls_act.pdf 8726 (a)(2) Determines the configuration or contour of the earth’s surface, or the position of fixed objects above, on, or below the surface of the earth by applying the principles of mathematics or photogrammetry. So if you perform or offer to perform a service (publicly or privately) of locating fixed things using math or pictures you are performing Land Surveying. HAHAHHAHAHAA Bullshit. I hope he has enough resources to trounce this bad law. He'll win if he can pay to fight it.

pishpash 4y ago
"Determines the configuration or contour of the earth’s surface, or the position of fixed objects above, on, or below the surface of the earth by applying the principles of mathematics or photogrammetry." lol yeah. Also notice that this 2022 version of the act seems to have the sole purpose of rearranging bullets and changing gender pronouns. What a great use of legislative time in California!

collegeburner 4y ago

"oi m8, let's see ya property loicense!"

jwr 4y ago

How is this not public information, available to everyone on the Internet? I'm baffled why anyone would even need to pay for this, much less why someone would be fined for selling this information. In my country, you go to a web site with a map (with dozens of switchable layers), which has pretty much everything: property lines, infrastructure, etc.

empyrrhicist 4y ago
We have that in many places in the US as well. My county has an official GIS site that works great. I did need to get a survey to confirm for sure where the property line fell, but for most things it's really helpful.

Stratoscope 4y ago

Oh my. I was about to commit the same crime myself. We had an ADU built on the property a few years ago. Google Maps and OSM don't show it, only the main house. Even worse, there is some confusion about the street address. We are on the corner of Foobar Road and Barfoo Avenue. The original address was on one of those streets, but a previous owner changed it from that one to the other. Some utilities think we are on Foobar, others on Barfoo. I was going to contact those utilities, the various online maps, and the city building office to try to get all this straightened out. But legal trouble is the last thing I need right now. I guess I should just leave everything in its current incorrect and confusing state.

jrootabega 4y ago
Were you going to provide these services or products on the open market, where people could reasonably interpret your products and services as legally valid for their own purposes?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

joxel 4y ago

The real question is how is this a legitimate business? Literally just providing GIS data that is publically available for a fee? BRB quitting my job to make money doing nothing and separating idiots from their money.

readme 4y ago

i hadn't heard about this guy until he got a fine that 1000 is a small price to pay for this advertising

iso1631 4y ago

Crazy. Here in the UK most properties have boundaries you can also find out who owns it for a nominal fee. (For unregistered land it's not that you can't have the data for free, it's that the data doesn't really exist) Presumably the government is the arbitrator of who owns the land, surely in the US that makes it public domain? (That said in the UK I get the feeling it's only free [0] because it came from an EU Directive) [0] https://use-land-property-data.service.gov.uk/datasets/inspire/download https://use-land-property-data.service.gov.uk/datasets/inspi...

crtified 4y ago

The law here is clearly overly vague and needs clarifying, but so too does the source of data on published maps. A map to be shared, particularly for any legal or regulatory purpose, should include a note stating the source(s) of the data depicted. The source could be a surveyor, or it could be Google Maps, or a particular GIS database, or whatever, but provided the data source is clearly stated, then potentially damaging ambiguity is minimized, and a clear paper trail as to accuracy and reliability is established.