21 ms·
Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court
- chrischen 4y agoIt sounds like the company is really paranoid about their remote workers being actually subcontracted to a cheaper locale or something.
- jacknews 4y ago"insubordination" wtf, was this a job or a prison camp?
- ChuckNorris89 4y agoJudging by their webpage they seem like a classic body shop making a living on selling cheaper EU devs to US firms.
- castis 4y agoIts hilarious that on the 3rd line they say "quality software is important to us..."; and immediately following is jquery soup.
- stingraycharles 4y agoI think it’s a bad translation, the actual Dutch word being used is “ongehoorzaamheid”, which means something like “not following the rules”. I will say that it’s typically used in the context of raising children for example, but it’s definitely acceptable to use this word in Dutch in this context.
- krono 4y agoThen it is a correct translation, as that is what insubordination means.
- 6stringmerc 4y agoYes, a friend raised concerns about his health versus company mandates / peer pressure in an emotional and kind of irritating way and the company Terminated him for that. Still finding out if he’s eligible for unemployment in the US state he lives. Specifically, he wrote that the company’s only option was “not up to his standards” and the Executive who fired him cited that as a reason, because how could an individual possibly have higher standards than him and the company? Hint: it’s not hard because they are malicious hillbillies.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- em500 4y ago"ongehoorzaamheid" means disobedience. Even in the context of raising children it seems pretty unfashionable nowadays. It has the air of authoritarianism that in my experience modern Dutch parents try to avoid. I wouldn't consider it acceptable in the context of employment relationships (except perhaps in military positions).
- ifqwz 4y agoSeems an appropriate word... "Insubordination is the act of willfully disobeying a lawful order of one's superior." Your boss is your superior, so disobeying what he asks of you is insubordination.
- castis 4y agoSince the lawsuit was successful, the order given was proven to not be lawful. Thus, not insubordination.
- philipwhiuk 4y agoSure, but that wasn't the expectation of the company at the time they called it that. If the court ruled in their favour it would have been insubordination.
- PebblesRox 4y agoTrue, but it's still the case that he was fired by his company with the claimed reason of insubordination. I think it's a valid translation given the context (i.e. talking about what they said he did, not about what he actually did.)
- talideon 4y agoYou seem to have missed the word "lawful".
- philipwhiuk 4y agolawful just means the order itself wasn't illegal. It doesn't mean that it's "enforcing the law" If I tell you to go buy 10 apples, refusing would be insubordination because it's legal to buy apples. If I tell you to go steal 10 apples, refusing would not be insubordination because it's legal to buy apples. Until the court ruled against them, the view of the firm would have been it was legal to require someone to have their camera on. Hence they viewed it as insubordination to refuse. They are wrong, it's not insubordination, but it's not unfair of them to think it was.
- flotzam 4y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insubordination#Private_Sector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insubordination#Private_Sector
- rocqua 4y agoAs others said, the dutch term is probably different. Their (bad) legal argument was. He refused to follow work instructions, hence he did not perform his work as required, hence we can fire him "op staande voet" which is an on the spot firing that does not require a long process of attempting to improve employee performance. They needed a 'op staande voet' firing because the long process takes months. The justifications for this are limited to things like "theft or fraud", "Threatening or causing Grievous insult", "repeated innebriation" (called out specifically in law), or "refusing a task". That final cause "Refusing a task" ,or in dutch, quoting from the law: "wanneer de werknemer hardnekkig weigert te voldoen aan redelijke bevelen of opdrachten, hem door of namens de werkgever verstrekt", can be translated to insubordination. A full translation of the dutch phrasing would be: "when the employee persistently refuses to comply with reasonable orders or instructions issued to him by or on behalf of the employer". Hence the company argued that "turn on your webcam all working day" was a "reasonable order or instruction issued by the employer". Note that the story mentions this was during a "Corrective Action Program". That sounds like they were already in the firing process. Which starts with a process of notifying an employee their performance is not good enough, and requires they are offered a chance to improve. This 'offering a chance to improve' is usually done by putting employees on a 'performance improvement plan'. I believe many US states have similar procedures.
- mcherm 4y ago> I believe many US states have similar procedures. Most US companies follow similar procedures because they are a sensible thing to do. But 49 out of 50 US states have "at will" employment which means that employers can fire any employee at any time for no reason at all.
- thrown_22 4y agoThey have at will firing. When employees choose to leave, not so much: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/24/us/thedacare-lawsuit-wisconsin.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/24/us/thedacare-lawsuit-wisc...
- sidewndr46 4y ago
- duxup 4y agoThe term seems fine to me. Actions of the company absurd, but I don’t associate that word with just a prison camp type situation.
- denton-scratch 4y agoInsubordination is simply refusing a proper direct instruction; for example, refusing to turn on your webcam. I'd argue that instruction wasn't "proper". But one of the legitimate grounds for dismissal is refusing to do what you're told. After all, if you hire someone, and they won't do what you pay them to do, then natural justice would seem to say that you can stop paying them, and hire a replacement. From what I've read, this employee was indeed insubordinate; but they were entitled to be insubordinate, because the instruction they were given wasn't proper. It would be wrong to court-martial a soldier, for example, if they refused an order to murder PoWs, even though prima facie that would be insubordination.
- jesuspiece 4y agosame thing in the states
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago>there was no urgent reason given to justify the immediate dismissal given.” He alleged that the termination was disproportionate Damn sweet. I wish we had such great employee protection laws in Austria, where the company/employer can terminate your employment relationship without any reason at all. >Less than a week after the plaintiff was fired, the Rijswijk branch of Chetu Inc. was deregistered from the Chamber of Commerce and shut down on 2 September, records show So the company knew they were in the wrong for firing him and immediately shut down their Dutch operations to avoid the lawsuit.
- yosamino 4y agoNot true that in Austria you can be terminated for any reason at all. There are protections in place. For example, in the regular case, i.e. 'no urgent reason' there is no such thing as an immediate dismissal, and this can be fought. Of course as always with the law ymmv - but there are many different ways in which your rights as a worker are protected. See this: https://www.usp.gv.at/mitarbeiter/beendigung-arbeitsverhaeltnis.html https://www.usp.gv.at/mitarbeiter/beendigung-arbeitsverhaelt...
- 6stringmerc 4y agoVery similar in Texas - it is called At Will employment. Other states are Right to Work. Each has pros and cons. I’ve only lived and worked in Texas so At Will is very close to “for any reason” as long as it’s not against the law. Don’t like your haircut? They can shut can you on the spot. On the flip side, if one day you go in and you’ve just had enough of the hourly retail job and think you can get a better one, you can up and walk out then and there. Usually we flash the double V for Victory sign and say “Peace out!” when that’s the case. It’s fun. I remember working as a waiter once and the Manager started assigning employees cleaning duties like getting on ladders for ceiling vents. Waiters get paid by tips, salary was $2.13 an hour at the time. When he asked me I told him I wouldn’t do it and would call the Workforce Commission if he wanted to push the issue. Needless to say I was the only front of house person not cleaning shit like a chump that day.
- 4y ago
- gnfargbl 4y ago> Less than a week after the plaintiff was fired, the Rijswijk branch of Chetu Inc. was deregistered from the Chamber of Commerce and shut down on 2 September, records show. So, it's a fair assumption that no organisation in the Netherlands is going to pay out as a result of this. What are the chances of the employee being able to enforce this judgment in a Florida court?
- V__ 4y agoLooking at their website [1] they still have a location (branch?) in the UK. I don't know how Brexit changed the legal frameworks between the UK and EU, but I would assume that could be a avenue to get some enforcement. [1] https://www.chetu.com/locations.php https://www.chetu.com/locations.php
- Archelaos 4y agoThe UK (together with Denmark) was never part of the European Account Preservation Order, established in 2017. So the comparatively easy EU process to freez funds in another EU country was never possible there. What is possible according to UK law, I do not know.
- matthewheath 4y agoIt is possible to get a freezing order through the courts to freeze assets like land, property, bank accounts, etc. It operates similarly to the European Account Preservation Order, and under the right circumstances it is possible to apply for a freezing order on a _without notice_ basis meaning that the employer would not be aware of the order until it is issued.
- Archelaos 4y agoThere may be another way for the employee to get his money: Provided that the company still has a bank account somewhere in the EU (except Denmark), a creditor can apply that the funds are to be freezed. The debtor does not have to be informed of this in advance. Then a court order can be obtained to be paid out of the freezed funds. See: https://e-justice.europa.eu/379/EN/european_account_preservation_order https://e-justice.europa.eu/379/EN/european_account_preserva...
- theow7384iri 4y agoHome is not owned by employer. So for this type of surveillance employer should get consent from all inhabitants.
- yrgulation 4y ago“worker had been present in the office being observed by management” And yet there are people who prefer working on site and “being observed by management”.
- ChuckNorris89 4y agoYou might be surprised to know that there are workplaces where you don't get "observed by management" which is why people love going there on site. Or that there are jobs where you don't have the choice of WFH so you have to show up to the office whether you like it or not if you want to afford food and rent. Or lack of silence, space, amenities at home, or the multiple other reasons why some people to go to the office. Why be judgemental about it? Let people do what they want and you do what you want.
- yrgulation 4y agoYou are right in the sense that mechanics, construction workers, medics, cant really work from home. But to say that in tech, which thrives due to remote customers, people must work on site is misguided. People cant afford the “luxuries” you mentioned because they need to be in the proximity of their office. Some are so traumatised by the experience that they cant fathom the notion that it is possible to own a place of your own, moreover, a place that can provide quietness and space. Such people need reminding that yes it is possible. If a company demand remote customers then employees can demand remote work. Those that despite having the space and the option of working form home yet chose onsite are welcome to do so. But i will remind folks that that is unnatural for human beings. Farming cattle is bad enough let alone people.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago>Those that despite having the space and the option of working form home yet chose onsite are welcome to do so. But i will remind folks that that is unnatural for human beings So, people not wanting to bring their work inside their homes where they eat, sleep, watch movies, play games, meet friends, have sex and play with their kids is unnatural? Are you gonna tell me next that same sex couples are also unnatural? I'll tell you what's unnatural: You trying to be the authority on what's unnatural. Stop trying to enforce your world views on everyone.
- GoToRO 4y agoIt's always something toxic when it comes to US companies. I had to do multiple background checks. In Romania they are unheard of.
- tinyhouse 4y agoFunny. Most US companies behave much better than companies outside the US. That's why Romanians looking to be hired by US companies and not vice versa (no attempt to offend you or any other Romanian, just stating a fact). This company sounds like a shitty one, the US of course has those like any other country, but it's usually the US ones that get more publicity when things like this happen.(also when good things happen, it goes both ways)
- Hendrikto 4y ago> Most US companies behave much better than companies outside the US. That's why Romanians looking to be hired by US companies No. The reason is compensation.
- merely-unlikely 4y agoI personally would take better comp over benefits any day.
- piaste 4y agoHigher comp beats "nice to have" benefits, but it doesn't beat a non-shitty work day every day. I don't know how much you'd have to pay me to accept to be treated like a child or a slave for eight hours a day, but it's going to be a _multiple_ of what a reasonable boss can get me to work for.
- bogdangrigg 4y agoIf by "behave better" you mean "pay more"... it's probably be correct. But when comparing overall US & EU working conditions, it's a very lopsided contest. US employees seem to be abused by European standards: at-will employment, no maternity leave, workplace surveillance, unpaid overtime for salaried employees are illegal pretty much everywhere - even Romania.
- sebazzz 4y agoI love it when US companies meet Dutch labor laws.
- MomoXenosaga 4y agoAmerican companies are not as innovative as they think- they just want to turn back the clock to the 19th century.
- Xelynega 4y agoYou're telling me it's not innovative to run psychological experiments on children without any approval from an ethics board? Sounds pretty innovative to me
- CalRobert 4y agoOr basically any labour laws. "You mean you can't just be on call with a 5 minute SLA for 14 days straight non-stop?
- daenney 4y ago“Hey so the way we do on-call is violating labour laws for all EU employees”. I’ve had very fun conversations with HR and Legal about this. There’s so many fun things. Mandatory rest periods, on-call on weekends in some countries requiring additional work, having to actually pay people, needing to provide them with the equipment to be on-call (phone and subscription) and on it goes.
- belter 4y agoPlus cue in the shock of US Employees, when they realize his court costs to sue his employer were less than 500 dollars.
- elorm 4y agoFiling fees. There's still a legal fee threshold.
- 4y ago
- xwdv 4y agoSome employers want to be able to take random photos to ensure remote workers are working at their computer during business hours.
- WastingMyTime89 4y agoThe employee argued they had access to their computer screen at all time and could fully monitor their laptop which should be enough. The court agreed.
- xwdv 4y agoThat should be MORE than enough. IMO an employers access to the screen and keystrokes should be zero.
- ianai 4y agoUnfortunately this is well within corporate “go away” money. They’ll gladly dish over 75k to get a threat off their books. It’s the corporate equivalent to stuffing 20 bucks in your pocket in case you’re held up while out on a run and don’t carry your wallet. Add a zero to make it 750k if you want corporations to think about it deeper.
- galangalalgol 4y agomost people i know don't keep cash even in their wallet. Do people even want credit cards or IDs? Even phones track themselves and turn off. What do muggers take these days?
- nerdponx 4y agoDebit cards and cash, for one. They also will just take the entire wallet and figure out what's valuable later. Also historically there have been ways to unlock stolen phones so they can be resold "cleanly" later. I don't know what current iPhones are like, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was possible with Android phones.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago>Less than a week after the plaintiff was fired, the Rijswijk branch of Chetu Inc. was deregistered from the Chamber of Commerce and shut down on 2 September, records show. The branch was first registered in the Netherlands on 1 June 2013 with the capital declared at 10 million euros.
- WastingMyTime89 4y agoThat doesn’t mean they won’t pay him. Only that they don’t plan to hire in the Netherland anymore. It would be pretty stupid to not pay to be honest. It’s not that much money, would mean keeping an open case in the UE and it’s highly likely they would end up paying anyway though one of the collection mechanisms in place for this kind of case.
- 4y ago
- ineedasername 4y agohe was ordered to take part in a virtual training period called a "Corrective Action Program." This is the sort of name given to processes uses when an employee is already performing below expectations. (Where I work it’s a more euphemistic Performance Improvement). If that’s the case here then his firing was a bit less sudden than it appears. Though the entire monitoring process seems draconian regardless.
- blub 4y agoPIPs are a tool for managing out employees that don’t perform well or don’t yield to often abusive company demands like e.g. overtime or pissed of somebody in management or connected to management.
- tyingq 4y agoAlso potentially just the unlucky selected person for a forced rank/yank exercise when everyone is doing their job, but some percentage is selected to oust.
- cjbgkagh 4y agoI’ve always called them sacrificial lambs.
- phpisthebest 4y agoDepends on the company but they are commonly used to ensure managers are not just firing someone that they are "pissed off" at, people are cynical about them but they are designed to ensure managers have to document the poor performance, and have notified the employee they are under performing... I have seen companies that lack this process and witnessed employees getting very positive feedback from managers even in performance reviews, only to be shell shocked with a termination for poor performance. Given the option to have a PiP process or not I would rather have one. I have seen employees go on a PIP and then improve their way out of it. I have seen them be used as a tool to justify termination, and in one case the PIP ended up revealing fraud. I think the point is, if a company is going to abuse employee, that will happen with or with out a PIP, but even with abusive management having that process IMO is better than not
- duxup 4y agoI’m a little surprised they had a Dutch employee and did know the laws. Every company I worked for with foreign employees, hired (or more often acquired) knew the lay of the land.
- Irishsteve 4y agoCan this actually be enforced. It sounds like it’s a Dutch court v US entity where they were a contractor. If the company had a Dutch entity they wouldn’t make such obvious errors in judgement as they’d know the local laws
- maartenscholl 4y agoIf you'd read the second sentence of the article, you would have learned that the company has a branch in the Netherlands.
- tick_tock_tick 4y agoAnd if you kept reading you'd know they don't anymore and the guy hasn't been paid.
- maartenscholl 4y agoI read that and I don't think it contradicts my comment, as the firm had the Dutch entity and thus the knowledge of Dutch labour laws at the time of the firing. This is contrary to what the parent supposes.
- denton-scratch 4y agoYeah, but it sounds like the NL subsidiary doesn't employ a NL lawyer; or maybe they do, but just don't listen to him.
- andyp-kw 4y agoI would never work for a company that required me to have my webcam on for the full work day.
- gryzzly 4y agowhat a pleasant piece of news
- O__________O 4y agoFrom Glassdoor for related employer: https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Chetu-Reviews-E231082.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Chetu-Reviews-E231082.htm >> Review: “You'll discover during training week that the the company will watch over you all day, even long tenured employees are watched via their WebCam.” >> “Glassdoor Alert: Attempt to Inflate Reviews — We have evidence that someone has taken steps to artificially inflate the rating for this employer with positive reviews posted in violation of our Community Guidelines. We have removed these reviews. Please exercise your best judgment when evaluating this employer. Learn more about Glassdoor Alerts: https://help.glassdoor.com/s/article/Glassdoor-Alerts-Badge-Program https://help.glassdoor.com/s/article/Glassdoor-Alerts-Badge-... _________________ From related company’s homepage: >> “We are proud to employ over 2,800 in-house developers with a variety of software development experience in an array of industries.” https://www.chetu.com/ https://www.chetu.com/
- galangalalgol 4y agoBetween this, and them shuttering any official EU accounts or presence after the award, I really foubt they will pay the award, and it seems unlikely they were contributing or collecting any taxes related to the employment.
- jupp0r 4y agoIANAL, but the person terminated would probably have some pretty good arguments in a US based lawsuit. More money to be awarded by the court in case he wins too.
- CameronNemo 4y agoWay more expensive legal fees though, and a much slower "justice" system. In the Netherlands court, the legal fees were sub 1k, and the decision happened less than 2 months from the filing.
- gnicholas 4y agoHow can the legal fees be less than a thousand dollars? It would take at least a few hours to research the law and write a brief, let alone prepare for court and make an appearance. Even if a lawyer was paid only $150/hr, it seems hard to come in under $1k. Regardless, it would certainly be much more expensive in the US, where decent lawyers are hundreds or thousands an hour.
- 0xHenry 4y ago
- 0xHenry 4y ago
- metacritic12 4y agoFWIW, while they are a U.S. incorporated firm, it looks like it's actually an Indian company in terms of staff / leadership.
- mlindner 4y agoSounds like this company is a software farm for cheap contract work.
- denton-scratch 4y ago> shut down on 2 September That seems unfortunate; the employee's best chance for collecting is if the employer continues to have business operations in the Netherlands.
- dingosity 4y agoKind of weird that the website hosting a story about intrusive spying has a cookie policy that essentially says "we're going to set a cookie to track you around the intarwebs and you can't opt out of it." One more site to add to the memory hole.
- daniel-cussen 4y ago
- graderjs 4y agoThat's what I like about europe: legal protections. I have the feeling there's no way that would ever happen in East Asia (excepting maaaybe Japan). Tho it would probably happen in parts of SE Asia, Indonesia etc, informed by a cultural and political impetus to slough off the perceived historical yoke of Western colonial exploitation. But other places (like Ph, and Thailand, I guess) this would never happen, I think as they need their Western manufacturing contracts too dearly... I think.
- durnygbur 4y agoThis company's website, offer, and videos gives me such creepy vibes... American-business-software kind. Everyone are so proud, fulfilled, trained, and friendly. Have one shameful few months long episode at a similar one in Czechia... CREEPY.
- dusted 4y agoI wonder how work culture will devolve from this kind of idea.. If I had a company, I'd much rather that my employees generate value, rather than "looking busy" and "working hard"
- throwaway743 4y agoThose playing that game are usually managers using employees for the "perception" game and office politics/justifying their own position. It's nonsense. My last manager was this type and was a big advocate for everyone returning to office, likely for playing this game.
- dusted 4y agoindeed, but if companies start to require the actually-productive employees to participate in this game, and incentivize them based on that participation, things will look bleak.. might even be difficult squeezing any work in between those long sessions of looking busy.
- Raydovsky 4y agoIt's ironic. My company hired Chetu some years ago. Their devs were doing 20 mins of work, but charging for 8. We couldn't trust them to do anything. And Chetu doesn't trust its employees. Heh
- qwerty456127 4y agoIf the boss wants to monitor me working they should better not tell me. My entire intelligence melts down in anxiety and performance drops to near-zero if I know I am being watched. Why the heck do they want to watch people? What are they trying to discover? Isn't monitoring the results of the job enough?
- userbinator 4y agoChetu argued instead that the webcam was no different than if the worker had been present in the office being observed by management. Is this a company where a manager is literally watching over employees for the whole day? I don't think that's normal outside of things like production lines and other blue-collar type environments.
- anigbrowl 4y agoThe CEO of this company seems very deep into 'hype capitalism' - all his recent writing is about the metaverse, NFTs etc. The fact that the Dutch subsidiary of this company tried to de-register itself within days of firing the employee suggests to me that its business models are extractive rather than productive.
- qwertyuiop_ 4y agohttps://profiles.forbes.com/members/tech/profile/Atal-Bansal-President-CEO-Chetu/50d215cc-3897-410e-aa8b-78c1567f0aeb https://profiles.forbes.com/members/tech/profile/Atal-Bansal...
- silexia 4y agoUnpopular opinion: decisions like this hurt European workers. As an employer with 270 full time employees and many more contractors, I simply will not hire people in the EU and especially not in Netherlands because of the legal risks from a government with too many regulations. An employer should be free to use webcam monitoring (no different than if the employee was in person with a supervisor nearby).