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> [1]Tangentially, this induces an obvious concern about cheat and cheat-detection arms races. A clever cheater might scrutinize this report and refine their ch
by maegul 4y ago
> [1]Tangentially, this induces an obvious concern about cheat and cheat-detection arms races. A clever cheater might scrutinize this report and refine their cheating plan. For example, they might recognize the need to use a second device (such as a phone) to cheat. They might use the data corpus presented in this report to establish limits on how often they use chess engine moves per game, and they might manage their ratings progress over time carefully, so as to stay in acceptable ranges of engine move correlation, rate of improvement, etc.
Important point I'd say. I really can't shake my personal feeling that chess as a sport is just simply dead, especially as an online e-sport. Especially in combination with the possibility that there's plenty more cheating that they're not catching/detecting.
Taking this report along with Hans's admission to only cheating twice, for example, and accepting Chess.com's assessment as accurate, it would seem that Hans's mistake was to confess only to the instances of cheating that he thought had been caught. Which indicates the mentality and experience involved where the actual game is not getting caught and many, just as Hans was before beating Magnus, are playing it successfully.
- remarkEon 4y agoI guess I’m not as cynical. I picked up chess again when I was deployed (I was on the chess team in high school) and have been closely following this drama, and my sense is that perhaps we all admit that online chess is dead, but a return to analog chess is possible and, perhaps, preferable. I know this begs the question of defeating cheats in irl play, but shouldn’t that be an easier problem to solve?
- maegul 4y agoI would be surprised of over-the-board cheating was viable in the long term. Seems like it should be relatively easy to stamp out provided there's a will to do so.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- remarkEon 4y agoJust play it naked. Ban cameras, except for internal closed circuit systems for tracking the board.
- Zababa 4y agoI've seen on the last thread that sometimes for cheating one bit of data is enough, something like a signal at some point where you could make a decisive move. I wonder, then, how you could send stealthily to someone a bit of data. Something like an implant under the skin giving a slight shock or vibration or heat. The answer to that would be to block signals from entering the space where the game is played, but then maybe you could implant a whole device in yourself to do that. I'm not sure how you could give it the data of the current game though.
- lmm 4y ago> I really can't shake my personal feeling that chess as a sport is just simply dead, especially as an online e-sport. Especially in combination with the possibility that there's plenty more cheating that they're not catching/detecting. Online chess is bigger than ever, and some kind of botting/cheating is possible for virtually every e-sport (indeed I'd say many are easier than chess). This is a major scandal that should have serious consequences, but there's no reason for it to be the end of online chess.
- maegul 4y agoTotally fair ... and it would make a lot of sense that this event brings about some sort of cultural cleansing or realignment. I guess I really just meant "dead to me." That being said, if it turns out that online chess continues to do well, but there's still plenty of cheating going on, I don't think it'd be accurate to say online chess is alive because it wouldn't be chess but something different, for better or worse. And whether such an outcome occurs might be what's really at stake here.
- pedrosorio 4y agoJust look at Magnus Carlsen's performance in the most recent online chess event. https://chess24.com/tour/standings/ https://chess24.com/tour/standings/ (Prelim standings / Knockout Bracket). Online chess is alive and well. The whole "so many top players caught cheating" is a bit much. None of the very best are cheating.
- hndamien 4y agoWell, none are getting caught cheating.
- patmcc 4y ago>>Online chess is bigger than ever, and some kind of botting/cheating is possible for virtually every e-sport (indeed I'd say many are easier than chess). I think it's the other way, chess is about as easy to cheat as it gets. With chess you can have a perfectly usable cheating system that isn't on the same computer at all - computer A is clean, and is where you actually play on chess.com, computer B is where you enter the moves into the chess engine. That doesn't work for something like CS:GO or League of Legends or whatever, cheating or botting needs to be in real-time and on the same computer.
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- ninethirty 4y agoMakes me wonder how many people are running game-theory-optimal poker bots and raking in fortunes.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 4y agoI don't know if a game-theory optimal poker bot would work well - You'd really want a battle-tested psychologically optimal bot that can convincingly play like an amateur, except when it really counts, to give your victims a false sense of confidence. A hustler-bot, essentially. I'm sure it'd be highly illegal.
- eternalban 4y ago> I really can't shake my personal feeling that chess as a sport is just simply dead, especially as an online e-sport. This sent me musing whether we are actually witnessing the emergence of a new type of gamesmanship. If we don't end up killing each other in another global war (sadly there won't be subsequent volumes about "the war no one wanted"), then having men and machines team up in competitive environments is a given. (This is already happening, no doubt, in military settings.) Maybe new games can be devised, or existing games modified, that can't default to games that are machine vs machine with the human teammates reduced to secretaries in the game. Games designed with AI teammate already in mind. The human role can't be just physical. I wonder what that would be like.