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So I've always wondered if Apple actually building a 'car' was ever really the goal. It seems like a skunkworks where they try crazy things and then incorporate

• dzhiurgis 4y ago
  Seeing how boring Carplay has been so far I’d have my doubts about skunkworks. That said it makes sense they might be working on exclusive operating system of sorts. The way car systems (100s of suppliers and their implementation) work nowadays is insane.
  • bergenty 4y ago
    I don’t know what you mean by “boring” but CarPlay is fantastic. It works really well and covers most things I’d like to do with a central console.
    • ghaff 4y ago
      "Boring" is good compared to most of the systems the car manufacturers came up with. A some of them still manage to screw up the integration of CarPlay with their own infotainment systems which often don't seem to want to get out of the way.
    • randomdata 4y ago
      The display of outside temperature is a curious oversight. That's the one thing I find myself regularly toggling back to the native console for. iOS plasters that information all over the place when running on the device itself, so it is not like it is out of character.
    • Tiktaalik 4y ago
      CarPlay does not work well at all on my 2018 Golf. There's a multitude of obvious, awful bugs. (eg. audio directions not occurring, but nonetheless ducking spotify audio for them)
      • scarface74 4y ago
        How much of that is the fault of shitty CarPlay hardware in most cars? We see how well things like AirPlay works when Apple controls both ends of the hardware.
        • munk-a 4y ago
          Probably about 90%? Apple is writing software in an attempt to replace native software and whenever their software doesn't perform as well as the native software performs it's on them. I do understand that Apple needs to integrate with hardware from hundreds of different manufacturers and I feel their pain - but nobody is twisting their arm and forcing them into the market. I'm sure 10% of the time or so the car maker is just being completely incompetent in using incompatible hardware or switching things out at the last minute without warning - but yea, mostly on Apple.
      • Kon-Peki 4y ago
        > audio directions not occurring, but nonetheless ducking spotify audio for them FYI - there are two different audio “sources” at play: “music” and “announcements”. Your “announcements” volume is set to 0. Not that I have any idea how to change that on your car, but on my VWAG car I can adjust the “announcements” volume by turning the volume dial while it is speaking the directions (or not, in your case)
    • dzhiurgis 4y ago
      You are right, maybe because it’s boring it is good, but IMO its not fantastic. Main use case is using google maps in a pretty inconvenient way… Like, you iOS doesn’t support my language maybe then just let me read message on that massive screen. And if my kids want to watch peppa pig - let them? Blocking video from central console is such immature safety feature.
• paxys 4y ago
  Can't say about building or selling an entire car, but they did have a massive self driving division which went nowhere.
  • mardifoufs 4y ago
    Is their self driving division still active?
    • modeless 4y ago
      More than ever if I go by how often I see their cars on the road. Three yesterday.
      • als0 4y ago
        What do they look like?
        • lucky_cloud 4y ago
          Some photos here, although this is from 2017 https://appleinsider.com/articles/17/04/27/apples-self-driving-testbed-spotted-in-silicon-valley https://appleinsider.com/articles/17/04/27/apples-self-drivi...
        • jedberg 4y ago
          SUVs with car size iPhones on top. I see them almost every day here in Cupertino.
        • modeless 4y ago
          Like this: https://macreports.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/apple-car-1.jpg https://macreports.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/apple-car-... I think new ones have more doodads around the fenders.
• usefulcat 4y ago
  I dunno, a billion dollars a year (for 8 years) for CarPlay skunkworks seems like a bit much even for Apple..
  • xxpor 4y ago
    When you have that much cash on hand, is it really?
    • boringg 4y ago
      I mean how much of a return can carplay generate on an initial investment of 8 billion and on-going OPEX even if selling to all the manufacturers (which it isn't). I think the point is that it was unlikely their intention to be building solely for carplay and an actual car was a bonus. However if they wind down the hardware play of an actual car this could be something that soften those sunk costs.
      • 32995844 4y ago
        Imagine a world where the car manufacturers no longer deal with software development for the vehicle, but instead you have a licensing agreement with Apple where CarPlay is the interface. Similar to Volvo and Google and Android Automotive. A lot of car manufacturers are standardizing around Android in general (see Acura, Volvo, BMW). If Apple could get in with an A-series chip and a custom software stack, then that would probably be a decent amount of money through some hardware purchasing and software licensing. Look at how Cariad (the VAG stack) blew up schedules for upcoming Porsche and Audi models and early versions of it were laggy, missing features, OTA updates are slow/non-existant, etc. If Apple can get their foot in the door, it opens up new service opportunities for things like Apple Music alongside any licensing, which may be the bigger goal.
        • spockz 4y ago
          Given the thread on Volvo and polestar bemoaning all the issues with the new Android Auto versions, I’m not so eager to continue in that trend. Let the car companies do what they do best. Build an automotive grade car that does the car thing really well and leave the entertainment to the CarPlay. Getting hud and center driver console display driven by CarPlay would be awesome though.
• johannes1234321 4y ago
  > imagine car manufacturers are somewhat tired of always building HUDs and in vehicle control systems. So gradually standardizing on a way to take all the displays/touchscreens in a vehicle and let them be run by Carplay seems like the future. What is then remaining as distinctive feature of a car vendor? The design? With their custom entertainment system they can confront they driver with their own brand identity and differentiate how they integrate the different features. But with EVs the engines aren't as different as fossil fuel engines, they don't have their gear shifting with that adjustment anymore. Lots of brand vlauebis lost and becomes obvious to the buyer that cars are 95% the same across brands.
  • wil421 4y ago
    Not really my wife’s BMW and my Jeep are both SUVs. They are pretty different and Jeep has started offering off road Hybrids. Eventually both companies will offer full EVs in existing lineups. The BMW is much better to drive but I wouldn’t take it off road. EVs will continue to fill the niche gaps their consumers want.
  • cercatrova 4y ago
    Who buys cars for their HUD? I buy cars for their performance, miles per gallon (or electric equivalent), brand value, etc.
    • dionidium 4y ago
      It was a significant factor for me when I last bought a car.
    • agumonkey 4y ago
      A good interface helps performance in a way. If I don't have the right information and have to work at it I get slower reflexes.
    • criddell 4y ago
      Me. Just about any car is fine as far as performance goes. All I really care about are the creature comforts in the cabin and the infotainment system (or whatever they call it now) is a big part of that.
• hindsightbias 4y ago
  > functionality everyone wants Depressing if manufacturers and users want more chip/software dependencies after the last two years of supply chain fun.
  • Rebelgecko 4y ago
    For better or for worse (IMO mostly better), users care more about features than the tech that goes into making those features work
  • lmm 4y ago
    Getting cars onto portable, standardised software makes the chips much more of a commodity and should reduce supply chain issues a lot - you go from needing to source xyz specific microcontroller to just needing to source "a chip that can run iOS/android version x".
    • raxxorraxor 4y ago
      If it would be an environment like desktop PCs it would be awesome. If it would look like the Apple landscape it would suck.
• nradov 4y ago
  Almost every new car sold in the developed world has a display in the dashboard, but very few actually have a Heads-Up Display (HUD) projected in the driver's line of sight. It's mostly just premium models from GM and BMW that come with this feature. It's a shame that more cars don't have a HUD as it really does help to reduce driver distractions.
  • spogbiper 4y ago
    I think all the Genesis models have them
  • criddell 4y ago
    Volvo has a HUD projected on the windshield.
  • saiya-jin 4y ago
    This is by far the best feature of our BMW F10 (manufactured in 2014 IIRC). I hate the distraction of constantly checking my speed in town, where there is a mix of dense traffic, many obstacles, outright stupid cyclists ignoring all traffic rules and aggressive motorcycles drivers and tons of radars that fine hard. I've noticed with my previous car (also BMW, E46 that I will remember fondly for the rest of my life as amazing car but not due to this) that if I looked at speed, my peripheral sight of whats happening on the actual road was almost 0. I may notice break lights of car close to me if its newer car, or an atomic blast, but anything else simply no. Just something very bad waiting to happen. Its such a great safety feature even with minimal info (current speed, current speed limit, and if car navigation is on some basic directions, but maybe thats the key, don't clutter it with too much info) that I would make it mandatory if I were EU and subsidize it.
    • bombcar 4y ago
      I've often thought that we should use that massively huge A pillar for some simple gauges, such as speed
      • nradov 4y ago
• TheCondor 4y ago
  Making the iPhone more sticky seems like a solid play. Use the phone in place of a key. Keep maintenance records on the phone. Tap a few buttons on the app and give the dealer a virtual key to the car so you can get it serviced. States are already putting IDs in to apps and the wallet. etc.. Maybe use the phone for various road passes and such, that seems like an easy and natural extension. Around the time the self-driving craze sort of took off, the noise in the echo chamber was that Apple was terribly far behind in 2 main categories: services and AI/ML. Now, they're charging ahead with services and they've got custom ML hardware on every single device they sell. A car seems like too big of a project with too much hype to use as a forcing function for all that stuff. Seems like there are some strong health and safety plays as well. If you have a watch on, it already can do fall detection. Car crash detection is a logical next step, if all the passengers had watches on, they could start sending real-time telemetry to the paramedics, maybe encourage them to prioritize a passenger that was in greater distress. With the cameras and such, there is absolutely enough processing power in your iPhone to look for drivers falling asleep and with some other data they could probably make a pretty good guess if you're intoxicated. My concern was that Apple would make a car and it would be a McLaren or something, it would be coveted, look amazing, and be just about completely unattainable. Now if I could buy a Toyota or a Hyundai and just plug my phone in and it became the brain of the car? I'd talk myself in to taking a new car for a test drive to try it.
  • chroma 4y ago
    > Making the iPhone more sticky seems like a solid play. Use the phone in place of a key. Keep maintenance records on the phone. Apple already does this,[1] though not many car manufacturers support it (BMW and a few models from Kia). Teslas let you use any iPhone or Android phone as the key. You can also use your phone to turn on valet mode (which limits acceleration and max speed) and track and control the car (turn on heat/AC, lock/unlock, view through the cameras, etc). Lastly, you can book service or request roadside assistance from the phone app. It's all very handy, and I'm surprised more car companies haven't copied these features yet. 1. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT211234 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT211234
• davzie 4y ago
  Imagine not being able to control basic aspects of your car like heating and stuff because you forgot or choose not to use a smartphone!
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  • ericmay 4y ago
    Is there a car on the market where this is the case? I'm not sure why that would be anything to worry about. I don't think any manufacturer except potentially Apple would require this for safety and competitive reasons.
• sytelus 4y ago
  HUDs are the small part of the story. far more important thing is what sensors you have access to and what can you control? Car manufactures are notoriously behind and bad on properly expanding and standardizing both sensors and controls. So, it is impossible to deliver consistent experience and capabilities. Even in 2022, most manufacturer haven't still figured out how to do firmware update without using USB drives. You can't even use phone to unlock cars. These are not hard things, but car manufacturers just can't get around to do it given their ancient and inefficient supply chains and factories which are only optimized for price wars, not leap-frogging experience. CarPlay is great for music and may be some cute graphics of basic gauges but the real value ultimately lies in some level of self-driving, assisted features and holistic integration which cannot be enabled without having complete control of hardware.
  • MuffinFlavored 4y ago
    > Car manufactures are notoriously behind and bad on properly expanding and standardizing both sensors and controls. Does Tesla make their own sensors and are they "ahead of the curve"?
  • wwweston 4y ago
    > Even in 2022, most manufacturer haven't still figured out how to do firmware update without using USB drives. This... makes sense to me? Physical access and automotive service go hand-in-hand. Over-the-air presents update hell and security issues.
    • giobox 4y ago
      Why does it not present hell in any other use case, such as computers, phones and games consoles, or actual cars on sale today? Why aren't Tesla or Rivian owners collectively going crazy - there are over 1 million Teslas receiving updates approximately every two weeks? These arguments do not appear to be borne by any evidence in reality. It's not like physical car repair places have some amazing flawless track record either... Physical access and the servicing of electrical devices do not need to always go hand in hand in 2022.
• giobox 4y ago
  I think this is a fair take, and I've had similar thoughts too. However, one thing computer industry people don't seem to get is how much the idea of Apple owning the "dials" on the instrument cluster as shown in the keynote this year will likely go down like a cup of cold sick at most European auto makers. In many cases the designs or colors used in the dial faces have decades of brand history behind them. Regardless of what customers desire, auto-makers are in no rush to become just a dumb pipe for apple or google's driving software. So far not one automaker has of yet publicly announced support or plans to support the more extensive CarPlay Apple demoed. I think if it does ship, it will need to support far, far more customization on interface and dial-faces than was shown in the keynote for auto-makers not to feel totally sold out of the cabin. It was slightly disappointing to me I've only really seen Nilay Patel at the Verge in the media point this out; anyone with experience of the car industry I think will come to a similar conclusion. People may forget, it took a very long time for some automakers to even trust adding the existing CarPlay, partly due to concerns regarding loss of control of cabin features. Old CarPlay is is a far less intrusive system than the one Apple are proposing now. As a thought experiment - if I personally ran BMW or Mercedes, I would have real concerns about dilution of the brand by adopting a generic industry wide car UI, even if I also think Apple would probably do a great job. Maybe the carrot of Apple solving autonomy as part of the package might be enough to swing the deal, but even there, I think in time legacy automakers will work out who to aqui-hire to build their own systems instead of selling out completely. > https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/7/23157963/apple-carplay-next-gen-screen-car-companies https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/7/23157963/apple-carplay-nex...
  • no_wizard 4y ago
    I'm willing to bet that Apple will lay down some cash to get car manufacturers on board if they think it will increase lock-in for iOS (and therefore the iPhone and other devices) by a certain margin. Google I'm sure has its own incentives to do this. Too early to tell if this will be the case or not.
    • pixelfarmer 4y ago
      Car makers are very well aware of the lock-in possibilities and execute them already. They were just very slow to wake up to the fast raise of, how to call it, "software defined car", and start pouring endless money now into this. The car makers usually defined the functions in their car and how to split that to the different computers (plus quite a few of this is fixed to specific computers, anyway). They also defined the data going back and forth between these, at least in part. Everything else was defined and done by the suppliers. This entire approach was upended by increasingly powerful embedded hardware and possibilities resulting from it, which rendered the entire software stacks in the cars so complex, the car makers had to seize control over this again. Someone has to define the larger scale software architecture in a vehicle etc. Combine that with that juicy lock-in scenario (I mean the big idea is to have cars connected all the time, like your phone), and you can bet on the fact that the car makers are very well aware of the possibilities which come with that (think of all the data which comes with that). And they are not exactly willing to just yield to the likes of Google or Apple because of it, i.e. we are talking really big money here. How all this will play out in the longer run, lets see. Car makers sit on a lot of cash, so this will be a fight which will be going for a while.
• lttlrck 4y ago
  It seems Mercedes are not going that direction at all with with the EQ range. They've gone all in, the MMI is deeply embedded into the car, speech recognition runs locally, it can control performance mode, seat massagers, huge swathes of car specific functionality, via speech, that I think Apple would have an uphill to catch up with, universally, across all vendors. I doubt the upper tier of manufacturers would be happy with mere UI skins either. Cars that are more like appliances, shared cars, with user customization in your phone, maybe that could work?
• thinkling 4y ago
  I was thinking along those lines, but the majority of phones are Android and I can't see a car manufacturer tying major features of a vehicle to users of Apple phones. Do they get Google to implement equivalent Android features just as CarPlay and Android Auto are complementary now? In some ways that makes sense (you get the personal assistant you prefer instead of one provided by the car company) but it means differentiation must be limited because the car can't change too much depending on what phone is plugged into it.
  • mark_l_watson 4y ago
    I have a 1 year old Honda Pilot - it works with Apple CarPlay as well as the equivalent from Android. It seems easy enough for car manufacturers to support both.
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
• concinds 4y ago
  Strongly disagree with this; we have many indications that Apple's efforts aren't just on CarPlay. First, Apple's car project is clearly mostly focused on self-driving (tying into Apple's mapping efforts). To steelman your argument, it's possible that Apple's just trying to develop self-driving software that car companies can just adopt into their cars, but that would be absolutely unprecedented for Apple; they just don't do licensing deals like this. The fact that Apple's developing self-driving AI means that either they plan on rolling out a consumer car, or rolling out a robotaxi service (as a subscription service, which Apple is interested in). It's either licensing, or using it for their own cars; there's no scenario where self-driving is built-into CarPlay, since if you forgot your phone, your car wouldn't work; and it wouldn't work for Android users either. Self-driving will never be a CarPlay/Android Auto feature that "plugs into" a "dumb car". Too finicky. Second, Apple's clearly investing heavily in car hardware and all related technologies (battery, etc). The most informed people on Apple are Mark Gurman and Ming-Chi Kuo, and they both agree that Apple's developing its own car hardware. See, for example, a 20-year Lamborghini vehicle R&D veteran hired to help design the car just two months ago.[0] That goes far, far beyond CarPlay. Kevin Lynch (who was in charge of Apple Watch) took over the project. There's tons of indications that this is about hardware, not just software. Personally, I feel it would be better for Apple to design an electric bike than a car; but hey. Car likely comes first, then bike (just like: VR goggles first, then AR/XR glasses). Also far more ways to integrate content consumption (TV, Music) and productivity features in a car. [0]: https://www.macrumors.com/2022/07/27/apple-car-lamborghini-executive-hire/ https://www.macrumors.com/2022/07/27/apple-car-lamborghini-e...
  • waldothedog 4y ago
    I would be inclined to agree that it’d unlikely apple provides self-driving software to other manufacturers, but wouldn’t iTunes on windows be somewhat similar? Create must-have software to drive adoption of some other hardware? (Phone?)
  • gumby 4y ago
    > Personally, I feel it would be better for Apple to design an electric bike than a car; The iphone is already the self driving bicycle of the mind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmuP8gsgWb8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmuP8gsgWb8
• gernb 4y ago
  Of course it is. Apple wants 30% of everything their car delivers you to. You're Apple's customer and they're bringing their customers to your business so clearly they deserve 30%. Plus even more lock-in, if you want to switch to Android or something else you'll have to buy a new car. /s
• babyshake 4y ago
  > Future seems to be ever expanding Carplay support. I use it and probably would not buy another car that did not have it integrated. What specifically about Carplay makes it so important, versus the non-Carplay equivalents that other modern cars have?
  • solardev 4y ago
    It doesn't suck as much. OEM car UIs are terrible.
    • KerrAvon 4y ago
      And CarPlay gets regular updates and support, where usually what you buy from the car manufacturer had better make you ecstatic, because it’s not going to change, and you’ll be lucky to even get bug fixes.
    • brewdad 4y ago
      My wife's car isn't that old (2017 model) but using the navigation is a painful experience. Inputting an address takes multiple minutes and can only be done by turning a knob one letter at a time. First, state. Then city. (There is no defaulting to current location, so this must be done every time). Then street name and finally numerical address. If any of these items aren't in the database, you get to go back and start over or try for the hopefully nearest address that is in the system. It's a mess but sometimes necessary. It also no longer gets traffic updates since the modem is 3G with no upgrade path currently. It does not support AA or Carplay. I hate it but she loves the way it drives, so we'll be keeping it for a while.
      • solardev 4y ago
        Yeah, exactly. Those built-in GPSes are just atrocious. I only use mine for the radio and have a car mount for my phone for all the rest of it.
• steveBK123 4y ago
  Agree Apple is using it as a play ground for CarPlay and never going to ship an actual car. Maybe at project inception that was a possible delivery. At this point with legacy makers actually making competent EV offerings.. no. Car market has many challenges that cause production and sales to scale slowly. Even if they outsource manufacturing, like Fisker has down with Magna (which no one has done at the many many millions scale Apple would need to).. what about service centers? Next cars face various tax, tariff and regulatory challenges far beyond any market Apple participates in today. They couldn't simply make the cars in Shenzhen and ship them across easily. Almost certainly some non-trivial amount of assembly would need to happen domestically which means a US workforce and potential union concerns. This is due both to tariffs and to maximize applicability of the new EV tax credit law. Further, I don't think Apple likely brings any special sauce to ADAS/Autonomy, and its a hard challenge many of the current players underestimate & overpromise. Oh and repairability and granularity of components/modules. EVs need to be serviceable in ways that phones/tablets/Macs are not. Car needs to be designed for this, and parts supply networks need to exist. This is not an Apple forte. All this to enter a traditionally low margin, boom&bust industry? No thanks.
• deepGem 4y ago
  But why won't Apple possibly build a device like comma.ai to basically fit into the car's OBD port and also bring in some self driving abilities and eventually full self driving, just by a completely new device that pairs to the iPhone. They can possibly strong arm autos to make the plug and play real smooth. It's not that far fetched. They might actually be able to do something using mixed reality, given how either pure vision based or lidar based self driving approaches are still not reaching the levels they were supposed to years ago. This could be under the usual AI umbrella like other companies, but the fact that there is an AI DR to Tim Cook makes me think self driving is big on the agenda. I"m not sure which other AI effort is so valuable to Apple to warrant a SVP. https://www.apple.com/in/leadership/john-giannandrea/ https://www.apple.com/in/leadership/john-giannandrea/
• gnicholas 4y ago
  As they've taken over more of the car's UI, I've wondered if the main goal is to bring a Comma-like feature to CarPlay. They could sell a lot more Pro-level iPhones if Apple offered self-driving functionality through CarPlay (but only for the top-tier Pro models).
• kalleboo 4y ago
  I always assumed it was an employee retention project. Jony Ive seemed bored of re-designing yet another rounded rect with a black mirror and was ready to leave, to attract top AI people you need a self-driving project, etc. But I guess at this point it has gone too far for just that.
• georgeecollins 4y ago
  I would guess that for like twenty years Apple had sort of plan stored away to launch a television. Do you remember Mac TV? Pippin? They probably considered it as a possible integration with Apple TV. That would mean for decades there was someone planning the product: How long would it take to launch? How much would it cost? What might the design be? What would be the business plan? They probably have a few plans like that.
• raxxorraxor 4y ago
  I wouldn't buy such a car to be honest. I thought the future would be more accessible cars, not some locked in trash where you have to pay dividends to even more suppliers. Although the car industry is heavily guilty here as well. For me a car is a tool. Aside from playing music, a technology available since forever, I don't expect much. Navigation is a solved issue for the most part. Self-driving cars are far away. An actual HUD is really nice, but many manufacturers already include them. If there is ever a standard, Apple would not be a good custodian.
• fuzzygroup 4y ago
  I also wouldn't buy another car without CarPlay.