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The Framework Laptop Chromebook Edition

565 points by artogahr 4y ago

alexeiz 4y ago
What's the deal with these expensive Chromebooks? Who needs a $1K Chromebook when you can get a good laptop for that kind of money?
ospzfmbbzr 4y ago
- smcn 4y ago
  I may be misunderstanding, but in what way is this not DIY? > Memory and storage are socketed, enabling you to load up whenever you’d like. The pre-built configuration comes with 8GB of DDR4 and 256GB NVMe storage and can be upgraded to up to 64GB of DDR4 and 1TB of NVMe storage. You can also use 250GB and 1TB Storage Expansion Cards to extend your space. This article also says that it's upgradeable and customizable: https://www.theverge.com/2022/9/21/23363862/framework-laptop-chromebook-edition-laptop-design-specs-price-release https://www.theverge.com/2022/9/21/23363862/framework-laptop...
- CivBase 4y ago
  How is ChromeOS any less "DIY" than Windows?
- jackson1442 4y ago
  Consumer choice is one of the core tenets of DIY, this adds more choices. Not sure there's a market for thousand-dollar chromebooks, but calling it anti-DIY is just inaccurate.
- NoraCodes 4y ago
  I absolutely disagree. If anything, this is a total validation of the idea that security does not require a locked-down device.
  - seabrookmx 4y ago
    But it is locked down, in a way. It doesn't ship with a regular UEFI bios so you can't just install an alternative OS.
    - NoraCodes 4y ago
      Right, absolutely. That's a choice that people get to make - they can either buy a Framework laptop that does have the ability to change out the OS, or if their threat model requires it, one that doesn't. Either way, they get upgradable components and future-proofing. I don't see how that's a negative for freedom.
      - seabrookmx 4y ago
        I'm not opposed to this device and actually think it's kind of cool. I use a Lenovo Duet as a secondary device and generally enjoy ChromeOS. But I see your statements as a little contradictory.. unless I'm missing something. > this is a total validation of the idea that security does not require a locked-down device > but the device is locked down in a way.. > Right, absolutely Maybe we are using different definitions of "locked down." I just wanted to point out that there is a trade-off here. You are giving up some freedom that most DIY'ers would expect (arbitrary OS choice) by choosing the ChromeOS version. > they get upgradable components and future-proofing. I don't see how that's a negative for freedom Agreed. Consumer choice isn't a bad thing!
        NoraCodes 4y ago
        Oh, I see what you mean. I'm referring to the argument from Dell and Microsoft that a "secure" device requires that there are no, or very few, user serviceable components. "Locked down" is an overloaded term here.
nrp 4y ago
I'm happy to answer questions anyone has on this product!
- fishywang 4y ago
  as someone who has been using chromebooks for years, I'm really excited for this! 1. do you have any plans to provide expansion cards for ltr/5g connectivity? 2. do you have any plans to provide more memory for chromebook edition?
- jpetso 4y ago
  With Coreboot and the ChromeOS Linux kernel running well on the device, how much would it take to release a Framework Laptop Linux Edition based on the Chromebook mainboard, but with a standard keyboard and somewhat optimized for a pre-installed Linux distribution? I would imagine that regular Linux won't do as well as ChromeOS in terms of battery life, but perhaps still considerably better than the Windows mainboard+firmware.
- ex3ndr 4y ago
  What’s the difference from original?
  - nrp 4y ago
    ChromeOS! Specifically, the Mainboard is custom-designed for ChromeOS. This means it uses coreboot instead of a proprietary BIOS and has Google's Titan C security chip. There are some other smaller differences. To keep the cost down, the top cover is aluminum-formed instead of CNCed, for compatibility reasons we weren't able to bring our fingerprint module in, and we were able to improve both audio quality and speaker loudness with an improved audio CODEC and louder transducers.
    - kj34kj 4y ago
      FYI — I emailed your support team and was told the Chromebook did have a fingerprint reader. Which surprised me because I hadn't see it on the product page at https://frame.work/products/laptop-chromebook-12-gen-intel https://frame.work/products/laptop-chromebook-12-gen-intel They pointed me to this /gb/en/ url, which has the same chromebook slug but seems to just describe the regular 12th gen laptop: https://frame.work/gb/en/laptop-chromebook-12-gen-intel https://frame.work/gb/en/laptop-chromebook-12-gen-intel So to be clear, no fingerprint reader for the Chromebook? Any chance of adding that in the future?
babypuncher 4y ago
What we've been asking for is a Framework running AMD hardware. What we're getting is a Framework running a stripped down Linux meant for schools and made by a spy company? I predict this thing not selling well, but I'm sure someone is excited.
- michael_j_ward 4y ago
  I bet lots of schools would pay up for "sustainable" laptops, actually.
  - 5436436347 4y ago
    I’m going to bet the opposite - no school is so flush with cash they can pay a 3x premium per laptop for students thet offers the same functionality. This seems like a misguided approach to obtain mass market appeal.
    - michael_j_ward 4y ago
      I think you underestimate the selling power of "Green" options, particularly among those with dollars to spend.
- warent 4y ago
  Many schools are already using Chromebooks. Framework is now making it so they won't get ripped off. This is an incremental improvement that I can see making Framework a lot of money actually
  - babypuncher 4y ago
    Most schools are using $200-$300 Chromebooks, I don't think this $999 high performance alternative is really targeting that market.
    - gepardi 4y ago
      I wonder how often they have to replace those low priced chrome books, however. Maybe there is a good value proposition in buying a well powered machine that can be updated by an IT department in an age where laptops are never upgradable.
mrgalaxy 4y ago
I’m reminded of this line in Bruce Almighty: “All this horsepower and no room to gallup” Is there really a market for a $999 Chromebook? Didn’t google try this several years ago and flop?
- soared 4y ago
  People love google’s pixelbook line, I think it just wasn’t a big enough commercial success to continue. I’ve used my pixelbook every day for like 5 years and it’s still incredible - boots in <1 second.
- jeffbee 4y ago
  This class of comment is pretty tired. Google Pixelbook did not "flop" it proved the viability of the $1000+ Chromebook market for serious users. There are Chromebooks on the market at all price points. You can build-to-order a HP Elite Dragonfly with a state-of-the-art CPU, 32GB of RAM, and 512GB of flash for $3200 and these are back-ordered to March 2023 so clearly the customers exist.
  - deleted 4y ago
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  - swores 4y ago
    > these are back-ordered to March 2023 so clearly the customers exist. Worth remembering that "stock issues" / wait times etc. are as dependant on the production plans of the product as they are on demand. It can be a sign of lots or customers, or just that hardly any demand was expected and so even a tiny amount more takes a while to catch up on (especially if e.g. there are high-demand components that they'd rather put in products with a high profit margin), or... etc
- pbronez 4y ago
  It’s intriguing to me. First, it’s a cheaper way to get started with Framework. Second, it’s a polished, secure thin client for web stuff. I already have a powerful home server, this could be my portable window to that device.
- 4y ago
slaw 4y ago
I am disappointed, there is Chromebook edition, but still no Linux edition only DIY.
- CivBase 4y ago
  I don't think they could win with a "Linux Edition" laptop. What distro would they ship with? Pop!_OS? Ubuntu? Debian? Fedora? Alpine? Manjaro? No matter what they choose, I suspect they'd just get accused of picking sides and the vast majority of users would just re-install with their preferred distro.
  - nrp 4y ago
    Yep, this is indeed the main reason behind this. We polled the community and found a pretty even split between several major distros. Rather than having inventory explosion from a large number of OS-specific SKUs, we optimized for shipping without an OS and writing easy to follow install guides.
    - baybal2 4y ago
      Linux only editions nevertheless makes sense if you want to cut down on the chipset cost. AMD chipsets have SoundWire, and MIPI CSI/DSI support, but there are no way to use them in Windows. Intel is starting to support them as well with Alder Lake mobile. SoundWire is way simpler than HDA, and availability/cost is better. Connecting the whole suite of peripherals over i2c allows to dispose of wide LIF cable from the front panel. No LPC EC needed. MIPI CSI cameras are vastly superior to USB ones, and are dirt chip for price/picture quality due to the size of smartphone market. Tablet use MIPI DSI panels price/quality is superior to LVDS panels, and you will never get such thin laptop-use panels. Linux can use non-SMBus battery gauges, and PMICs. Again, you can forego paying the x86 premium on SMBus vs. i2c controlled PMICs.
  - ISL 4y ago
    The older I get, the less I care about which distribution comes on a linux laptop. The fact that it exists at all is a reason to consider the model. A production linux laptop is a clear statement, "All of our hardware is immediately compatible with linux. Sure, our distro has little warts, but you can either install your own or `apt-get install fluxbox`, copy in your config files, and get right to work, ISL."
webmobdev 4y ago
Congrats to frame.work for creating another decent product. But disappointed that it's an Intel device yet again. Why no AMD? (And can we replace ChromeOS with Linux or FreeBSD?)
- Entinel 4y ago
  Creating an AMD version of the Framework I assume takes a lot more work than just hitting up AMD and asking for some CPUs. Should they stop all other product development while waiting on AMD?
  - webmobdev 4y ago
    Unless Intel is helping them with the reference designs, I don't see how an AMD motherboard for their frame.work laptop is more difficult to design than an Intel one. Can you clarify why you think so?
- loudmax 4y ago
  Actually, I was thinking I'd like to see a Framework laptop with an ARM CPU. There are ARM based Chromebooks after all. Other than Apple's M1/M2 chips, there aren't any ARM CPUs that can match the raw power of x86, but Apple has demonstrated what's possible. And it would do a lot to resolve the battery life.
  - webmobdev 4y ago
    I think this project is financially sponsored and / or technically supported by Intel and Google and hence the Intel processors.
- skadamat 4y ago
  They will get there! But they need to build a sustainable business
  - webmobdev 4y ago
    I know, and understand that Intel offers better deals to undercut their competitors. But just search for all discussions on frame.work on Reddit or HN and you'll find that top most requested feature is an AMD CPU. Most of us know that AMD today makes slightly better CPU than Intel. And it's cheaper too! And AMD always has offered better support to upgrade their CPUs - upgrade-ability is one of the key features of frame.work.
billsmithaustin 4y ago
Will be interesting to read reviews on the battery life.
n0ric 4y ago
I'm having a hard time imagining the audience for this product. EDU most likely isn't going to go with this product due to cost (and can get easily complex, imagine trying to juggle all the expansion ports being lost by students), and typical audiences for ChromeOS devices don't always overlap with audiences who want easy repairability (and most likely are purchasing the device for the lack of nuances that other OSes provide).
- rch 4y ago
  Christmas gifts for my parents. I've had them on Chromebooks for the last few years, and my father is a tinkerer (Western Electric in the 70s) who routinely opens up laptops, phones, cameras, etc. for repairs or just because.
  - comprev 4y ago
    "just because" is a great personality trait to have (in the context of learning more) and I'm thankful my father had the same attitude. When I was a child we used to disassemble mechanical/electrical things around the house simply because I asked "How does that work?". On occasion the reassembly didn't quite go to plan and a replacement kettle/toaster/VCR had to be sourced rather swiftly :-)
  - geek_at 4y ago
    I also gave all elderly people a chromebook/box because it's so much easier to manage and much harder to break / make slow
- deleted 4y ago
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- washadjeffmad 4y ago
  I'm on a $150 Chromebook from Costco right now because it has a really nice display for text, it gets 8 hours of battery life at full brightness, and there's nothing I do that I can't do on another computer, somewhere else. And somehow, this thing got my attention. I don't have any interest in their traditional PC laptop line, but I've been waffling over buying a Pixelbook for years because dealing with Google Support is worse than entering a contract with a devil. If it helps you reconcile it, Framework doesn't do bulk or business orders right now, anyway, so the target demographic is only individuals.
bubblethink 4y ago
This is excellent. The last major missing piece was coreboot, and this presumably delivers that. Also, could you please make/sell suzyQ cables (https://www.sparkfun.com/products/retired/14746 https://www.sparkfun.com/products/retired/14746)? They've been OOS since COVID. Edit: Is i5 the only option ? There's no i7 option on the order page.
Entinel 4y ago
I hope this works out for them. The largest market for Chromebooks are schools but are schools willing to pay Frameworks price? I don't believe so but I hope I'm wrong.
- protomyth 4y ago
  We bought refurb HP and Lenovo laptops for less than $400. >$900 for student laptops is a big no-go. I guess if you were a bigger University, but I cannot see it for the average school.
  - teawrecks 4y ago
    Though in theory, upgrading/repairing these over time would be cheaper than spending $400 every few years or each time a kid breaks one.
    - dubcanada 4y ago
      I don't think that math adds up correct, $400 is over half the cost. If they last 2-3 years and a framework lasts 5-6 years before needing repair, it's at about break even (assuming we need to buy a brand new $400 laptop every 2-3 years). Buying parts for a Framework will cost more than parts for a $400 laptop of which there are thousands on ebay of every single part. For example let's assume the screen is broken and we have a $400 laptop which can be replaced on. A new screen is about $100-150 (based on a quick ebay look of $400 laptops). A new screen for a frame.work is $180. Your ONLY option with a frame.work is to buy through them at the moment, there is no other part providers. You are at the mercy of frame.work to provide support for parts and supply. With a $400 Lenovo a quick ebay search can provide you every single part from all over the world at a variety of costs. As well as the normal companies that provide parts for them (and Lenovo themselves).
      - teawrecks 4y ago
        Note: I started my comment with "in theory". I would be disappointed in framework if they locked out 3rd parties from selling replacement parts. That's the whole point of right to repair. My hope is that if people rally behind a platform like this, it will drive the price down too. There's also the fact that we currently aren't pricing in the cost of e-waste, much like how gas in the US doesn't currently price in the cost of climate change related damages. It could be that those $400 laptops are artificially cheap for now, but once you start charging companies for planned obsolescence, it doesn't make financial sense anymore.
jds_bv 4y ago
Combining hardware privacy switches with a Google chromebook is like pasting a "vegan" sticker on a slab of meat.
- LandStander 4y ago
  Concerns of spyware are precisely why those switches exist.
  - amelius 4y ago
    Switches won't do much if your photos and videos are on your laptop through some other physical means (e.g. disk/network) or if you put them there when the switch was not active.
    - paxys 4y ago
      Yes they also don't protect you from car accidents or heart disease. What's your point? The purpose of a privacy switch is to make sure that Google (or anyone else, including hackers) isn't spying on you through your camera or microphone. This one accomplishes exactly that.
      - hedora 4y ago
        And the vegan sticker isn’t made of meat.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - amelius 4y ago
        How will the switch protect me if I'm in a video call with my SO? I can trust a Linux system. A system running Google adware (some even call it spyware), not so much.
        Sharparam 4y ago
leppr 4y ago
I'm not sure if HN is a representative audience regarding interest in ChromeOS, but personally all I hope is the money Framework makes from this allows them to release a larger model on which I can slap Linux on. Lightweight 15" laptops with great Linux compatibility aren't so easy to find.
- mixmastamyk 4y ago
  Got my hands on one. Because the screen is tall and keyboard a bit larger it doesn’t feel nearly as cramped as most 13” notebooks. Believe it is 13.5 as well, helps a bit.
hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
This is awesome! I still use my Pixelbook, and I love it, and was always dismayed that it seemed to be yet another great product that Google lost interest in. For folks wondering "who's the market in this?", the Linux container support in ChromeOS is awesome - my Pixelbook was actually a great dev laptop (I ran postgres, VSCode, Node, etc on it), just with age it's lack of upgrades is starting to show. So for me, on the "ChromeOS side", for me it's a benefit that it's basically just browser and android apps, and then on the Linux side I have everything I need for development.
- duped 4y ago
  I think the question is, why ChromeOS instead of a Linux?
  - nrp 4y ago
    In practice, full, stable hardware compatibility and battery life. The Linux experience on the Framework Laptop on recent distros (e.g. Ubuntu 22.04.1) is solid, but battery life will still generally be better running Ubuntu on top of ChromeOS.
    - r-w 4y ago
      Interesting. Do we have a concrete reason why, e.g., TLP[0] falls short of the power management features offered on other OSes? [0]: https://linrunner.de/tlp/ https://linrunner.de/tlp/
      - jeffbee 4y ago
        One reason is all the binary artifacts are peak-optimized for the platform and this yields significant, often 10-20% lower CPU usage than plain vanilla binaries offered by all other Linux distributions. This includes the kernel, which in ChromeOS is built with LLVM with profile-guided optimization. Faster software translates directly to longer battery life. Every other distribution is years behind Google in terms of tooling.
0000011111 4y ago
This looks great! And a $300 Chromebook in and EDU environment will last 5-7 years. I wonder if this laptop which is ~4x the price can last 15 years?
gepardi 4y ago
The brilliance is that framework doesn’t have to ship anything, unless customers pay a deposit, which would validate the demand. I don’t see how they could lose here.
- nrp 4y ago
  Theoretically something like that could be possible, but that is not how we operate. Hardware products have typically >12 month development timelines. We opened pre-orders today with shipments starting in a little over 2 months from now. Pre-orders help us gauge production volume need, but not whether or not we should make a product.
binkHN 4y ago
This is great news! Chromebooks don’t have to be low spec machines! I recent bought a machine off of the list at https://support.google.com/chromeosflex/answer/11513094?hl=en https://support.google.com/chromeosflex/answer/11513094?hl=e... just so that I could have a decent device with decent specs to run ChromeOS Flex—and the more I use it, the more I enjoy a machine that Just Works, requires little maintenance and runs alongside the flexibility of a modern Debian Linux VM.
e-Minguez 4y ago
Meanwhile, folks in European countries such as Spain are not able to buy a regular Framework laptop...
amelius 4y ago
This makes me afraid that the company might at some point be acquired by Google. Hopefully someone can take that fear away.
- grey_earthling 4y ago
  Yeah. Maybe this will turn out to be a genius strategic move, but it just seems weird. It's the same sort of cognitive dissonance as if a Michelin-starred sushi restaurant just announced they're adding a Subway Footlong sandwich to their menu.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
staticassertion 4y ago
Oh shit I might get this. I've moved to ChromeOS for virtually everything and it's awesome, and I've been looking for an excuse to try framework
throwaquestion5 4y ago
Why is the fingernails of the last image grey? Gave me flashbacks of a really fucked up toenails I saw in a podiatrist
stewbrew 4y ago
A Chromebook with no touchscreen? Seriously.
staticassertion 4y ago
So do I have to add more RAM to this later? I can't just buy it with the max'd out RAM?
- nrp 4y ago
  To keep inventory streamlined for this product, we only have a single configuration of the product. It is super easy to open up and add more memory to though. We include a screwdriver in the box and encourage you to explore the inside.
samueldr 4y ago
I wonder if it will have proper CCD (Case Closed Debugging)[0] support. With CCD, you are pretty much free to mess around with the "BIOS" of the machine, without fear of being put in a bad situation. It also provides a serial terminal to the "AP" (application processor), e.g. available to the OS. In other words, the Cr50 provides a controlled and user-controlled (but not user-owned) sideband channel to debug the system, even on consumer hardware. Why user-controlled? Because it requires asserting presence to "Open", which with the design of ChromeOS basically requires being the owner of the device. Why not user-owned? For official ChromeOS devices, AFAIK that firmware cannot be replaced by a user with their own builds. [0]: https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/platform/ec/+/cr50_stab/docs/case_closed_debugging_cr50.md https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/platform/ec/+/c...
- amstan 4y ago
  It will, kind of a requirement to make a testable Chromebook these days.
- octoberfranklin 4y ago
  > the Cr50 provides a controlled and user-controlled The Cr50 is as far from user-controlled as you can get. It can MITM your keyboard, reflash your firmware, and obeys only the holder of the private key corresponding to `LOADERKEY_A`: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2433 http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2433 If the Chromebook is Google's take on laptops, then Cr50 is Google's take on the IME.
  - samueldr 4y ago
    Thanks for taking the quote of context. It's not like the sentence as a whole could ever have any more meaning than a snippet of it. As I clearly stated, what is user-controlled is the sideband channel to debug the system on consumer hardware. The sideband channel under the current implementation of Cr50 is entirely user-controlled. This is a fact, as the end-user of the machine has control over the sideband channel. I did not state any judgement about the GSC itself and its firmware. And please don't start spreading FUD around hypotheticals of updates changing that. Yes it is possible. But a lot else and worse is possible under that scenario, so it serves no purpose but to spread FUD. And is still irrelevant to the content of the previous comment. I am asking you, please do not ever derail what I say with FUD or out-of-context quotes ever again. Thank you.
jawadch93 4y ago
[dead]
zelphirkalt 4y ago
I hope this does not backfire as a product without a target audience. I want to see framework succeed in making modular hardware, not at offering lock-in services from Google or even promoting ChromeOS and other Google products.
adriancr 4y ago
when can i buy it in europe?
- 4ggr0 4y ago
  UK, Germany and France.
duped 4y ago
My only quibble is that the display isn't high resolution.
smm11 4y ago
This is like that modular phone thing that I haven't heard about in forever. I'm not sure how making a device appealing to 60K folks, maybe, makes any sense.
kiawe_fire 4y ago
Interesting to see they have a super key-less keyboard for this. I’m really hoping they release a standard keyboard with a generic “super” key instead of a Windows logo at some point.
PointyFluff 4y ago
Ick. No.
ElijahLynn 4y ago
I've used a Chromebook a fair bit over many models. I even got a beta CR-48 when they first launched. The best models are tent * yoga style and touch enabled and also come with a stylus. I searched the Framework Chromebook page for "touch" and found 0 results. I hope they are working towards a touch enabled Chromebook.
lrvick 4y ago
ChromeOS is a privacy nightmare I cannot recommend to anyone which is a real shame because it is perhaps the most secure consumer focused workstation operating system out there. I wish any vendor would offer a privacy-by-default telemetry-disabled ChromiumOS option I could actually recommend.
- dathinab 4y ago
  But if we are honest: 1. is it really worse then windows 2. google does has privacy option, partially thanks to the EU forcing them and as far as I can tell they are not randomly "undone" with updates from time to time 3. a lot of more common users do also have instagram and similar, do most things through android/iOS apps and use google search and chrome, or some chrome derivate. How much additional information does using ChromeOs expose? Don't get me wrong for most people on HN it probably is degrading privacy. But this is not targeting the common HN user. This is targeting: - existing ChromeOs users looking for an upgrade - this includes devs - this includes less tech affine people - this includes people which bought that premium Chromebook with a 3:2 Google sold years ago - this includes a bunch of google (ex-)employs which might have been the driving factor for bringing out a ChromeOs version - this includes junior devs which grew up with a edu focused chrome book - people which care about the mission of framework, but are not highly tech affine, they might seem rare but they do exist - presents, Chromebooks can be nice presents to less tech affine users and if they anyway use mainly Chrome and similar it's not necessary "reducing their privacy" - people feed up by Linux desktop issues but disgusted with Apple Hypocrisy and totally feed up with windows since a while - especially if they are not supper sensitive wrt. privacy. And while such devs might sound like a myth on HN I have meet docents of them Lastly it's the same hardware and probably more or less the same driver support issues, so the cost of shipping such a version is probably not too high while at the same time it can give you a bit more supply chain stability (by removing hardware choices outside of cards). The main question is if the firmware is in a state where you could just install Linux or Windows if you want.
  - lrvick 4y ago
    Giving ChromeOS devices to low tech users that cannot understand the privacy and lock-in risks feels like a tech version of giving kids cigarettes. It is simply unethical. The HN crowd can make informed decisions to give Google control of their entire digital lives but we should not make that choice for others. I would never recommend Windows or MacOS to anyone for similar reasons so those are not a comparison I care about either. I would certainly recommend a Chromebook over either if someone absolutely has no choice but those three, but there are almost always other choices if you make some time to teach someone. Most Linux distros are a security shit show so pre-installed linux machines are hard to recommend to anyone that does anything high risk on their machines like financial work or journalism. Degoogled ChromiumOS feels like a good security/privacy balance for most people but that is not currently a user friendly option for installation and upgrades. In practice I find myself using and teaching others using their machines for anything remotely privacy or security sensitive to install and use QubesOS. For all the excellent privacy and security design it has a high learning curve and strict hardware requirements making it untenable for low-budget or low-tech users.
Halan 4y ago
The words chromebook and privacy in the same marketing material for a product that clearly targets power users is an audacious choice
- nrp 4y ago
  It is indeed. The intent of that is to communicate that no matter what the OS is doing, the privacy switches for the camera and microphone are yours to control. The switches function at hardware level with no possibility of software override.
  - sifar 4y ago
    >> The intent of that is to communicate that no matter what the OS is doing, the privacy switches for the camera and microphone are yours to control Then why partner with such an OS ? It is not just the HW switches when I cannot use the very Framework chromebook without a google account - where is the privacy in that. I was very excited for Framework and I appreciate your responses here but this feels too early a backward move for Framework. Is the market/partnership worth the trust hit ? I hope I am wrong but this seems like going the Don't be evil way.
  - top_sigrid 4y ago
    Soory to be harsh, but advertising hardware features "to give you control over your privacy" for a device that runs Google's tracking-ware OS is questionable to say the least.
- jeroenhd 4y ago
  I hate "performance" Chromebooks but I very much appreciate giving end users the choice to get their weird Google OS if they want it. More consumer choice at no cost in other features is only a good thing.
- RunSet 4y ago
  An operating system developed by the world's largest advertising corporation and the privacy of hardware camera and microphone switches: Nuts and gum, together at last.
choletentent 4y ago
I use a Chromebook for development as well. It's $100 computer and it is just fantastic. I throw it around with such peace of mind, and the battery life is just incredible! It has only one issue for me, it does not have enough power to run MS Teams on the brownser, and the Android app does not work well. A native app from MS would be quite nice :)
linsomniac 4y ago
I have a couple HP Chromebook 13 G1 laptops that I loved quite a lot for ~5 years as my primary personal laptop. It worked really well for 95% of my needs, especially once it got the Linux container support (which was ~4 years in). The first one I got was $550 for the 8GB RAM model with i5 and "retina" screen, that was a refurb from Woot, almost half off. The second one I got around a year ago when Linux container support landed, 16GB RAM, i7, "retina" screen. That one I got off ebay for $120 landed. I also got my son one that he used until a few days ago. Pretty decent little machine for that price. My son switched to a $120 Windows ASUS laptop this past weekend because the Chromebook wouldn't run Windows games. I was half expecting him to give up on the new laptop because 4GB isn't much RAM, but he says it works great. My mother in law was recently asking for laptop advice for a "ward of the court" she oversees that could do with a laptop to do zoom meetings for the court appearances, and to use for school. I went looking for Chromebooks and found: they are all priced the same as a similarly speced Windows laptop. The things I value about ChromeOS ("instant" updates, "nothing really on the device", "security") aren't things the average person (let alone teen) really care about... Kind of hard to recommend a Chromebook for the average person these days, unless I'm missing something.
hexo 4y ago
But... why. Why would anyone get a chromebook? I still dont get it. Whats the point of having one?
- thebitstick 4y ago
  For the same reasons people buy iPads and use them as laptops. I get it, but good luck taking away my Mac from my cold dead hands.
- modeless 4y ago
  Win11 and macOS and desktop Linux all suck in various ways. ChromeOS actually has far better security, boots faster, has less obtrusive automatic updates, supports Android apps, runs Steam (in beta), and has real Linux that you can use underneath instead of PowerShell or Cygwin or WSL or Apple's weird environment with no native package manager and a set of outdated utilities and a git binary that requires accepting the XCode license agreement again every time there's an update... Seems like half of HN readers think Google is the literal devil, but for the other half, why not ChromeOS?
aesh2Xa1 4y ago
If Google partnered with Microsoft to bring the complete Excel/Word/PowerPoint programs to ChromeOS, I would jump ship in a heartbeat for our office fleet. I wonder if CodeWeavers CrossOver can run Office on ChromeOS reliably.
- water-your-self 4y ago
  That is a space they are quite directly trying to win with their in browser suite of office tools, and chromeOS is, partly, a vehicle for that. I would be surprised to hear that G and MS partnered in that sort of a way.
  - aesh2Xa1 4y ago
    I’d be just as satisfied for Google Sheets to become the standard. I have seen XLSX/DOCX as the standard format for a long time. The Google Workspace (GSuite) products don’t interoperate seamlessly, and they are not a compatible solution.
sahaskatta 4y ago
Any way to configure this with 16GB or more of RAM so that I don't need to upgrade later?
- hoppyhoppy2 4y ago
  There's only the one (8GB) configuration available for purchase. RAM upgrades, while possible, will have to be done yourself.
kelnos 4y ago
I hesitated posting this, because I don't want to be too negative, but: ugh. ChromeOS is just more Google adware/tracking-ware, locking people into the Google ecosystem, and (by default, at least) creating a more locked-down environment than a general-purpose OS would have (not quite iOS or even Android, but still not with the flexibility of a "mainstream" OS). I feel like Framework could be spending their time doing much better things. Granted, if they believe that this will be a big boost to their bottom line / margins / sustainability, then I'm in favor of it on the grounds of helping make sure Framework is a successful company. My hope was that this is just running on the standard Framework laptop hardware, but it looks like it required a bit of a mainboard redesign, as well as a different input cover and keyboard. Extra hardware like that just makes their offering more difficult for a customer to navigate and understand, not to mention the added support and manufacturing burden on the company's side.
- askvictor 4y ago
  While I share your concerns, the user experience and security of ChromeOS is so much nicer than Windows, or Linux (haven't used a Mac for ages so can't compare), for most tasks for most people. It's what I'd recommend to my grandparents. Also, completely disagree with your point about locking people into Google ecosystem - this is an OS that just runs a web browser. You need a Google account to log in, sure (actually, there's a guest mode too), but otherwise it's just a browser.
  - m-p-3 4y ago
    Honestly, ChromeOS has been the best solution for my grandparents. I don't receive any calls to help them out with computer issues, which means I can spend more time with them instead of fixing stuff.
  - wyldfire 4y ago
    I'm a fan of Linux and a fan of ChromeOS. but are the user experience and security better on ChromeOS than Linux? It's a bit simpler than linux but I'd say Linux is a close second.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
h0hiec6Dai2wi 4y ago
Not having the ServoV4 available to anyone but Google employees completely invalidates any praises of this thing being "open". Additionally, the Titan C chip included on the mainboard doesn't appear to be socketed (please correct me if I'm wrong), so you're basically stuck with a proprietary processor hooked into your machine doing god knows what. Note that the Titan C isn't open source like the "OpenTitan" project, which means they're basically privacy-washing chromebooks. I don't have a problem with them making a chromebook but not releasing Coreboot firmware for the existing boards is giving me bad vibes, really worried Framework's leadership is compromised.
- amstan 4y ago
  Servov4 is overkill unless you need to be testing your chromebook 24/7 in an automated fashion. Everything else can be done with a SuzyQ instead. https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/third_party/hdctools/+/HEAD/docs/ccd.md#making-your-own-suzyq https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/third_party/hdc... https://www.sparkfun.com/products/retired/14746 https://www.sparkfun.com/products/retired/14746 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGsyXlgSxFk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGsyXlgSxFk
yumraj 4y ago
Honestly I would have preferred if they’d offered a 15”-16” version instead of this. Oh well, looks like Apple’s gonna get my money..
malkia 4y ago
My best device for the last 3-4 years have been Eve Chromebook with 16GB of RAM and 512GB SSD - still can't find a newer Chromebook that matches it :( That's all I wanted... something newer that runs Vulkan too in Crostini :)
bhedgeoser 4y ago
Doesn't work in intellij
Mikeb85 4y ago
Seems like it's targeting the wrong crowd. Framework laptops would naturally appeal to the tinkerer and techie crowd, meanwhile ChromeOS is very much a casual user kind of OS. It makes sense to have $300 Acer laptops running ChromeOS, not so much a $1000 repairable laptop...
ncmncm 4y ago
I gave up waiting for the AMD version. Intel must be able to turn the screws down really tight on small shops. I wonder how it is done, exactly.
puyoxyz 4y ago
Chromebooks were great because they ran on ARM. Now all the new chromebooks run on Intel. I can’t find any ARM chromebooks at IRL stores anymore. ARM chromebooks > Intel chromebooks, and if they continue pushing Intel they’re killing the reason that chromebooks can be both cheap and good EDIT: And if you want to use it for Crostini… why are you getting a chromebook
4ggr0 4y ago
Still waiting for this laptop to be available where I live, I'm at the point where I'm loosing the last bit of hope and am considering to just buy a different product. Which really annoys me, because I was never as hyped for a laptop as for this one.
LoveMortuus 4y ago
I love my Chromebook and I'm not looking for a replacement, but I do still like to look at new devices. I personally think that this Framework Chromebook is way to expensive at 999$, but I do fine from a non USD economy, so many technologies coming from US are too expensive for me. That being said, my vision has always been that Chromebooks are light, affordable and battery life that will last longer then you. I paid around 400€ for my Chromebook, the most important specification was FHD IPS display and at least 12h of battery. I'm aware that Google made Chromebooks with very high prices, but I don't think many bought those. That's why seeing this laptop for 999$ seem a bit too much, especially now that you can get M1 MacBook Air for the same price! And it's just as user-friendly, if not slightly more.
Aissen 4y ago
What is the auto-update expiration date ? https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/6220366 https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/6220366
- Aissen 4y ago
  The answer is in the article: > The Framework Laptop Chromebook Edition […] receives automatic updates through June 2030

565 points by artogahr 4y ago

What's the deal with these expensive Chromebooks? Who needs a $1K Chromebook when you can get a good laptop for that kind of money?

ospzfmbbzr 4y ago

smcn 4y ago
I may be misunderstanding, but in what way is this not DIY? > Memory and storage are socketed, enabling you to load up whenever you’d like. The pre-built configuration comes with 8GB of DDR4 and 256GB NVMe storage and can be upgraded to up to 64GB of DDR4 and 1TB of NVMe storage. You can also use 250GB and 1TB Storage Expansion Cards to extend your space. This article also says that it's upgradeable and customizable: https://www.theverge.com/2022/9/21/23363862/framework-laptop-chromebook-edition-laptop-design-specs-price-release https://www.theverge.com/2022/9/21/23363862/framework-laptop...
CivBase 4y ago
How is ChromeOS any less "DIY" than Windows?
jackson1442 4y ago
Consumer choice is one of the core tenets of DIY, this adds more choices. Not sure there's a market for thousand-dollar chromebooks, but calling it anti-DIY is just inaccurate.
NoraCodes 4y ago
I absolutely disagree. If anything, this is a total validation of the idea that security does not require a locked-down device.
- seabrookmx 4y ago
  But it is locked down, in a way. It doesn't ship with a regular UEFI bios so you can't just install an alternative OS.
  - NoraCodes 4y ago
    Right, absolutely. That's a choice that people get to make - they can either buy a Framework laptop that does have the ability to change out the OS, or if their threat model requires it, one that doesn't. Either way, they get upgradable components and future-proofing. I don't see how that's a negative for freedom.
    - seabrookmx 4y ago
      I'm not opposed to this device and actually think it's kind of cool. I use a Lenovo Duet as a secondary device and generally enjoy ChromeOS. But I see your statements as a little contradictory.. unless I'm missing something. > this is a total validation of the idea that security does not require a locked-down device > but the device is locked down in a way.. > Right, absolutely Maybe we are using different definitions of "locked down." I just wanted to point out that there is a trade-off here. You are giving up some freedom that most DIY'ers would expect (arbitrary OS choice) by choosing the ChromeOS version. > they get upgradable components and future-proofing. I don't see how that's a negative for freedom Agreed. Consumer choice isn't a bad thing!
      - NoraCodes 4y ago
        Oh, I see what you mean. I'm referring to the argument from Dell and Microsoft that a "secure" device requires that there are no, or very few, user serviceable components. "Locked down" is an overloaded term here.

nrp 4y ago

I'm happy to answer questions anyone has on this product!

fishywang 4y ago
as someone who has been using chromebooks for years, I'm really excited for this! 1. do you have any plans to provide expansion cards for ltr/5g connectivity? 2. do you have any plans to provide more memory for chromebook edition?
jpetso 4y ago
With Coreboot and the ChromeOS Linux kernel running well on the device, how much would it take to release a Framework Laptop Linux Edition based on the Chromebook mainboard, but with a standard keyboard and somewhat optimized for a pre-installed Linux distribution? I would imagine that regular Linux won't do as well as ChromeOS in terms of battery life, but perhaps still considerably better than the Windows mainboard+firmware.
ex3ndr 4y ago
What’s the difference from original?
- nrp 4y ago
  ChromeOS! Specifically, the Mainboard is custom-designed for ChromeOS. This means it uses coreboot instead of a proprietary BIOS and has Google's Titan C security chip. There are some other smaller differences. To keep the cost down, the top cover is aluminum-formed instead of CNCed, for compatibility reasons we weren't able to bring our fingerprint module in, and we were able to improve both audio quality and speaker loudness with an improved audio CODEC and louder transducers.
  - kj34kj 4y ago
    FYI — I emailed your support team and was told the Chromebook did have a fingerprint reader. Which surprised me because I hadn't see it on the product page at https://frame.work/products/laptop-chromebook-12-gen-intel https://frame.work/products/laptop-chromebook-12-gen-intel They pointed me to this /gb/en/ url, which has the same chromebook slug but seems to just describe the regular 12th gen laptop: https://frame.work/gb/en/laptop-chromebook-12-gen-intel https://frame.work/gb/en/laptop-chromebook-12-gen-intel So to be clear, no fingerprint reader for the Chromebook? Any chance of adding that in the future?

babypuncher 4y ago

What we've been asking for is a Framework running AMD hardware. What we're getting is a Framework running a stripped down Linux meant for schools and made by a spy company? I predict this thing not selling well, but I'm sure someone is excited.

michael_j_ward 4y ago
I bet lots of schools would pay up for "sustainable" laptops, actually.
- 5436436347 4y ago
  I’m going to bet the opposite - no school is so flush with cash they can pay a 3x premium per laptop for students thet offers the same functionality. This seems like a misguided approach to obtain mass market appeal.
  - michael_j_ward 4y ago
    I think you underestimate the selling power of "Green" options, particularly among those with dollars to spend.
warent 4y ago
Many schools are already using Chromebooks. Framework is now making it so they won't get ripped off. This is an incremental improvement that I can see making Framework a lot of money actually
- babypuncher 4y ago
  Most schools are using $200-$300 Chromebooks, I don't think this $999 high performance alternative is really targeting that market.
  - gepardi 4y ago
    I wonder how often they have to replace those low priced chrome books, however. Maybe there is a good value proposition in buying a well powered machine that can be updated by an IT department in an age where laptops are never upgradable.

mrgalaxy 4y ago

I’m reminded of this line in Bruce Almighty: “All this horsepower and no room to gallup” Is there really a market for a $999 Chromebook? Didn’t google try this several years ago and flop?

soared 4y ago
People love google’s pixelbook line, I think it just wasn’t a big enough commercial success to continue. I’ve used my pixelbook every day for like 5 years and it’s still incredible - boots in <1 second.
jeffbee 4y ago
This class of comment is pretty tired. Google Pixelbook did not "flop" it proved the viability of the $1000+ Chromebook market for serious users. There are Chromebooks on the market at all price points. You can build-to-order a HP Elite Dragonfly with a state-of-the-art CPU, 32GB of RAM, and 512GB of flash for $3200 and these are back-ordered to March 2023 so clearly the customers exist.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- swores 4y ago
  > these are back-ordered to March 2023 so clearly the customers exist. Worth remembering that "stock issues" / wait times etc. are as dependant on the production plans of the product as they are on demand. It can be a sign of lots or customers, or just that hardly any demand was expected and so even a tiny amount more takes a while to catch up on (especially if e.g. there are high-demand components that they'd rather put in products with a high profit margin), or... etc
pbronez 4y ago
It’s intriguing to me. First, it’s a cheaper way to get started with Framework. Second, it’s a polished, secure thin client for web stuff. I already have a powerful home server, this could be my portable window to that device.
4y ago

slaw 4y ago

I am disappointed, there is Chromebook edition, but still no Linux edition only DIY.

CivBase 4y ago
I don't think they could win with a "Linux Edition" laptop. What distro would they ship with? Pop!_OS? Ubuntu? Debian? Fedora? Alpine? Manjaro? No matter what they choose, I suspect they'd just get accused of picking sides and the vast majority of users would just re-install with their preferred distro.
- nrp 4y ago
  Yep, this is indeed the main reason behind this. We polled the community and found a pretty even split between several major distros. Rather than having inventory explosion from a large number of OS-specific SKUs, we optimized for shipping without an OS and writing easy to follow install guides.
  - baybal2 4y ago
    Linux only editions nevertheless makes sense if you want to cut down on the chipset cost. AMD chipsets have SoundWire, and MIPI CSI/DSI support, but there are no way to use them in Windows. Intel is starting to support them as well with Alder Lake mobile. SoundWire is way simpler than HDA, and availability/cost is better. Connecting the whole suite of peripherals over i2c allows to dispose of wide LIF cable from the front panel. No LPC EC needed. MIPI CSI cameras are vastly superior to USB ones, and are dirt chip for price/picture quality due to the size of smartphone market. Tablet use MIPI DSI panels price/quality is superior to LVDS panels, and you will never get such thin laptop-use panels. Linux can use non-SMBus battery gauges, and PMICs. Again, you can forego paying the x86 premium on SMBus vs. i2c controlled PMICs.
- ISL 4y ago
  The older I get, the less I care about which distribution comes on a linux laptop. The fact that it exists at all is a reason to consider the model. A production linux laptop is a clear statement, "All of our hardware is immediately compatible with linux. Sure, our distro has little warts, but you can either install your own or `apt-get install fluxbox`, copy in your config files, and get right to work, ISL."

webmobdev 4y ago

Congrats to frame.work for creating another decent product. But disappointed that it's an Intel device yet again. Why no AMD? (And can we replace ChromeOS with Linux or FreeBSD?)

Entinel 4y ago
Creating an AMD version of the Framework I assume takes a lot more work than just hitting up AMD and asking for some CPUs. Should they stop all other product development while waiting on AMD?
- webmobdev 4y ago
  Unless Intel is helping them with the reference designs, I don't see how an AMD motherboard for their frame.work laptop is more difficult to design than an Intel one. Can you clarify why you think so?
loudmax 4y ago
Actually, I was thinking I'd like to see a Framework laptop with an ARM CPU. There are ARM based Chromebooks after all. Other than Apple's M1/M2 chips, there aren't any ARM CPUs that can match the raw power of x86, but Apple has demonstrated what's possible. And it would do a lot to resolve the battery life.
- webmobdev 4y ago
  I think this project is financially sponsored and / or technically supported by Intel and Google and hence the Intel processors.
skadamat 4y ago
They will get there! But they need to build a sustainable business
- webmobdev 4y ago
  I know, and understand that Intel offers better deals to undercut their competitors. But just search for all discussions on frame.work on Reddit or HN and you'll find that top most requested feature is an AMD CPU. Most of us know that AMD today makes slightly better CPU than Intel. And it's cheaper too! And AMD always has offered better support to upgrade their CPUs - upgrade-ability is one of the key features of frame.work.

billsmithaustin 4y ago

Will be interesting to read reviews on the battery life.

n0ric 4y ago

I'm having a hard time imagining the audience for this product. EDU most likely isn't going to go with this product due to cost (and can get easily complex, imagine trying to juggle all the expansion ports being lost by students), and typical audiences for ChromeOS devices don't always overlap with audiences who want easy repairability (and most likely are purchasing the device for the lack of nuances that other OSes provide).

rch 4y ago
Christmas gifts for my parents. I've had them on Chromebooks for the last few years, and my father is a tinkerer (Western Electric in the 70s) who routinely opens up laptops, phones, cameras, etc. for repairs or just because.
- comprev 4y ago
  "just because" is a great personality trait to have (in the context of learning more) and I'm thankful my father had the same attitude. When I was a child we used to disassemble mechanical/electrical things around the house simply because I asked "How does that work?". On occasion the reassembly didn't quite go to plan and a replacement kettle/toaster/VCR had to be sourced rather swiftly :-)
- geek_at 4y ago
  I also gave all elderly people a chromebook/box because it's so much easier to manage and much harder to break / make slow
deleted 4y ago
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washadjeffmad 4y ago
I'm on a $150 Chromebook from Costco right now because it has a really nice display for text, it gets 8 hours of battery life at full brightness, and there's nothing I do that I can't do on another computer, somewhere else. And somehow, this thing got my attention. I don't have any interest in their traditional PC laptop line, but I've been waffling over buying a Pixelbook for years because dealing with Google Support is worse than entering a contract with a devil. If it helps you reconcile it, Framework doesn't do bulk or business orders right now, anyway, so the target demographic is only individuals.

bubblethink 4y ago

This is excellent. The last major missing piece was coreboot, and this presumably delivers that. Also, could you please make/sell suzyQ cables (https://www.sparkfun.com/products/retired/14746 https://www.sparkfun.com/products/retired/14746)? They've been OOS since COVID. Edit: Is i5 the only option ? There's no i7 option on the order page.

Entinel 4y ago

I hope this works out for them. The largest market for Chromebooks are schools but are schools willing to pay Frameworks price? I don't believe so but I hope I'm wrong.

protomyth 4y ago
We bought refurb HP and Lenovo laptops for less than $400. >$900 for student laptops is a big no-go. I guess if you were a bigger University, but I cannot see it for the average school.
- teawrecks 4y ago
  Though in theory, upgrading/repairing these over time would be cheaper than spending $400 every few years or each time a kid breaks one.
  - dubcanada 4y ago
    I don't think that math adds up correct, $400 is over half the cost. If they last 2-3 years and a framework lasts 5-6 years before needing repair, it's at about break even (assuming we need to buy a brand new $400 laptop every 2-3 years). Buying parts for a Framework will cost more than parts for a $400 laptop of which there are thousands on ebay of every single part. For example let's assume the screen is broken and we have a $400 laptop which can be replaced on. A new screen is about $100-150 (based on a quick ebay look of $400 laptops). A new screen for a frame.work is $180. Your ONLY option with a frame.work is to buy through them at the moment, there is no other part providers. You are at the mercy of frame.work to provide support for parts and supply. With a $400 Lenovo a quick ebay search can provide you every single part from all over the world at a variety of costs. As well as the normal companies that provide parts for them (and Lenovo themselves).
    - teawrecks 4y ago
      Note: I started my comment with "in theory". I would be disappointed in framework if they locked out 3rd parties from selling replacement parts. That's the whole point of right to repair. My hope is that if people rally behind a platform like this, it will drive the price down too. There's also the fact that we currently aren't pricing in the cost of e-waste, much like how gas in the US doesn't currently price in the cost of climate change related damages. It could be that those $400 laptops are artificially cheap for now, but once you start charging companies for planned obsolescence, it doesn't make financial sense anymore.

jds_bv 4y ago

Combining hardware privacy switches with a Google chromebook is like pasting a "vegan" sticker on a slab of meat.

LandStander 4y ago
Concerns of spyware are precisely why those switches exist.
- amelius 4y ago
  Switches won't do much if your photos and videos are on your laptop through some other physical means (e.g. disk/network) or if you put them there when the switch was not active.
  - paxys 4y ago
    Yes they also don't protect you from car accidents or heart disease. What's your point? The purpose of a privacy switch is to make sure that Google (or anyone else, including hackers) isn't spying on you through your camera or microphone. This one accomplishes exactly that.
    - hedora 4y ago
      And the vegan sticker isn’t made of meat.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - amelius 4y ago
      How will the switch protect me if I'm in a video call with my SO? I can trust a Linux system. A system running Google adware (some even call it spyware), not so much.
      - Sharparam 4y ago

leppr 4y ago

I'm not sure if HN is a representative audience regarding interest in ChromeOS, but personally all I hope is the money Framework makes from this allows them to release a larger model on which I can slap Linux on. Lightweight 15" laptops with great Linux compatibility aren't so easy to find.

mixmastamyk 4y ago
Got my hands on one. Because the screen is tall and keyboard a bit larger it doesn’t feel nearly as cramped as most 13” notebooks. Believe it is 13.5 as well, helps a bit.

hn_throwaway_99 4y ago

This is awesome! I still use my Pixelbook, and I love it, and was always dismayed that it seemed to be yet another great product that Google lost interest in. For folks wondering "who's the market in this?", the Linux container support in ChromeOS is awesome - my Pixelbook was actually a great dev laptop (I ran postgres, VSCode, Node, etc on it), just with age it's lack of upgrades is starting to show. So for me, on the "ChromeOS side", for me it's a benefit that it's basically just browser and android apps, and then on the Linux side I have everything I need for development.

duped 4y ago
I think the question is, why ChromeOS instead of a Linux?
- nrp 4y ago
  In practice, full, stable hardware compatibility and battery life. The Linux experience on the Framework Laptop on recent distros (e.g. Ubuntu 22.04.1) is solid, but battery life will still generally be better running Ubuntu on top of ChromeOS.
  - r-w 4y ago
    Interesting. Do we have a concrete reason why, e.g., TLP[0] falls short of the power management features offered on other OSes? [0]: https://linrunner.de/tlp/ https://linrunner.de/tlp/
    - jeffbee 4y ago
      One reason is all the binary artifacts are peak-optimized for the platform and this yields significant, often 10-20% lower CPU usage than plain vanilla binaries offered by all other Linux distributions. This includes the kernel, which in ChromeOS is built with LLVM with profile-guided optimization. Faster software translates directly to longer battery life. Every other distribution is years behind Google in terms of tooling.

0000011111 4y ago

This looks great! And a $300 Chromebook in and EDU environment will last 5-7 years. I wonder if this laptop which is ~4x the price can last 15 years?

gepardi 4y ago

The brilliance is that framework doesn’t have to ship anything, unless customers pay a deposit, which would validate the demand. I don’t see how they could lose here.

nrp 4y ago
Theoretically something like that could be possible, but that is not how we operate. Hardware products have typically >12 month development timelines. We opened pre-orders today with shipments starting in a little over 2 months from now. Pre-orders help us gauge production volume need, but not whether or not we should make a product.

binkHN 4y ago

This is great news! Chromebooks don’t have to be low spec machines! I recent bought a machine off of the list at https://support.google.com/chromeosflex/answer/11513094?hl=en https://support.google.com/chromeosflex/answer/11513094?hl=e... just so that I could have a decent device with decent specs to run ChromeOS Flex—and the more I use it, the more I enjoy a machine that Just Works, requires little maintenance and runs alongside the flexibility of a modern Debian Linux VM.

e-Minguez 4y ago

Meanwhile, folks in European countries such as Spain are not able to buy a regular Framework laptop...

amelius 4y ago

This makes me afraid that the company might at some point be acquired by Google. Hopefully someone can take that fear away.

grey_earthling 4y ago
Yeah. Maybe this will turn out to be a genius strategic move, but it just seems weird. It's the same sort of cognitive dissonance as if a Michelin-starred sushi restaurant just announced they're adding a Subway Footlong sandwich to their menu.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

staticassertion 4y ago

Oh shit I might get this. I've moved to ChromeOS for virtually everything and it's awesome, and I've been looking for an excuse to try framework

throwaquestion5 4y ago

Why is the fingernails of the last image grey? Gave me flashbacks of a really fucked up toenails I saw in a podiatrist

stewbrew 4y ago

A Chromebook with no touchscreen? Seriously.

staticassertion 4y ago

So do I have to add more RAM to this later? I can't just buy it with the max'd out RAM?

nrp 4y ago
To keep inventory streamlined for this product, we only have a single configuration of the product. It is super easy to open up and add more memory to though. We include a screwdriver in the box and encourage you to explore the inside.

samueldr 4y ago

I wonder if it will have proper CCD (Case Closed Debugging)[0] support. With CCD, you are pretty much free to mess around with the "BIOS" of the machine, without fear of being put in a bad situation. It also provides a serial terminal to the "AP" (application processor), e.g. available to the OS. In other words, the Cr50 provides a controlled and user-controlled (but not user-owned) sideband channel to debug the system, even on consumer hardware. Why user-controlled? Because it requires asserting presence to "Open", which with the design of ChromeOS basically requires being the owner of the device. Why not user-owned? For official ChromeOS devices, AFAIK that firmware cannot be replaced by a user with their own builds. [0]: https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/platform/ec/+/cr50_stab/docs/case_closed_debugging_cr50.md https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/platform/ec/+/c...

amstan 4y ago
It will, kind of a requirement to make a testable Chromebook these days.
octoberfranklin 4y ago
> the Cr50 provides a controlled and user-controlled The Cr50 is as far from user-controlled as you can get. It can MITM your keyboard, reflash your firmware, and obeys only the holder of the private key corresponding to `LOADERKEY_A`: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2433 http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2433 If the Chromebook is Google's take on laptops, then Cr50 is Google's take on the IME.
- samueldr 4y ago
  Thanks for taking the quote of context. It's not like the sentence as a whole could ever have any more meaning than a snippet of it. As I clearly stated, what is user-controlled is the sideband channel to debug the system on consumer hardware. The sideband channel under the current implementation of Cr50 is entirely user-controlled. This is a fact, as the end-user of the machine has control over the sideband channel. I did not state any judgement about the GSC itself and its firmware. And please don't start spreading FUD around hypotheticals of updates changing that. Yes it is possible. But a lot else and worse is possible under that scenario, so it serves no purpose but to spread FUD. And is still irrelevant to the content of the previous comment. I am asking you, please do not ever derail what I say with FUD or out-of-context quotes ever again. Thank you.

jawadch93 4y ago

[dead]

zelphirkalt 4y ago

I hope this does not backfire as a product without a target audience. I want to see framework succeed in making modular hardware, not at offering lock-in services from Google or even promoting ChromeOS and other Google products.

adriancr 4y ago

when can i buy it in europe?

4ggr0 4y ago
UK, Germany and France.

duped 4y ago

My only quibble is that the display isn't high resolution.

smm11 4y ago

This is like that modular phone thing that I haven't heard about in forever. I'm not sure how making a device appealing to 60K folks, maybe, makes any sense.

kiawe_fire 4y ago

Interesting to see they have a super key-less keyboard for this. I’m really hoping they release a standard keyboard with a generic “super” key instead of a Windows logo at some point.

PointyFluff 4y ago

Ick. No.

ElijahLynn 4y ago

I've used a Chromebook a fair bit over many models. I even got a beta CR-48 when they first launched. The best models are tent * yoga style and touch enabled and also come with a stylus. I searched the Framework Chromebook page for "touch" and found 0 results. I hope they are working towards a touch enabled Chromebook.

lrvick 4y ago

ChromeOS is a privacy nightmare I cannot recommend to anyone which is a real shame because it is perhaps the most secure consumer focused workstation operating system out there. I wish any vendor would offer a privacy-by-default telemetry-disabled ChromiumOS option I could actually recommend.

dathinab 4y ago
But if we are honest: 1. is it really worse then windows 2. google does has privacy option, partially thanks to the EU forcing them and as far as I can tell they are not randomly "undone" with updates from time to time 3. a lot of more common users do also have instagram and similar, do most things through android/iOS apps and use google search and chrome, or some chrome derivate. How much additional information does using ChromeOs expose? Don't get me wrong for most people on HN it probably is degrading privacy. But this is not targeting the common HN user. This is targeting: - existing ChromeOs users looking for an upgrade - this includes devs - this includes less tech affine people - this includes people which bought that premium Chromebook with a 3:2 Google sold years ago - this includes a bunch of google (ex-)employs which might have been the driving factor for bringing out a ChromeOs version - this includes junior devs which grew up with a edu focused chrome book - people which care about the mission of framework, but are not highly tech affine, they might seem rare but they do exist - presents, Chromebooks can be nice presents to less tech affine users and if they anyway use mainly Chrome and similar it's not necessary "reducing their privacy" - people feed up by Linux desktop issues but disgusted with Apple Hypocrisy and totally feed up with windows since a while - especially if they are not supper sensitive wrt. privacy. And while such devs might sound like a myth on HN I have meet docents of them Lastly it's the same hardware and probably more or less the same driver support issues, so the cost of shipping such a version is probably not too high while at the same time it can give you a bit more supply chain stability (by removing hardware choices outside of cards). The main question is if the firmware is in a state where you could just install Linux or Windows if you want.
- lrvick 4y ago
  Giving ChromeOS devices to low tech users that cannot understand the privacy and lock-in risks feels like a tech version of giving kids cigarettes. It is simply unethical. The HN crowd can make informed decisions to give Google control of their entire digital lives but we should not make that choice for others. I would never recommend Windows or MacOS to anyone for similar reasons so those are not a comparison I care about either. I would certainly recommend a Chromebook over either if someone absolutely has no choice but those three, but there are almost always other choices if you make some time to teach someone. Most Linux distros are a security shit show so pre-installed linux machines are hard to recommend to anyone that does anything high risk on their machines like financial work or journalism. Degoogled ChromiumOS feels like a good security/privacy balance for most people but that is not currently a user friendly option for installation and upgrades. In practice I find myself using and teaching others using their machines for anything remotely privacy or security sensitive to install and use QubesOS. For all the excellent privacy and security design it has a high learning curve and strict hardware requirements making it untenable for low-budget or low-tech users.

Halan 4y ago

The words chromebook and privacy in the same marketing material for a product that clearly targets power users is an audacious choice

nrp 4y ago
It is indeed. The intent of that is to communicate that no matter what the OS is doing, the privacy switches for the camera and microphone are yours to control. The switches function at hardware level with no possibility of software override.
- sifar 4y ago
  >> The intent of that is to communicate that no matter what the OS is doing, the privacy switches for the camera and microphone are yours to control Then why partner with such an OS ? It is not just the HW switches when I cannot use the very Framework chromebook without a google account - where is the privacy in that. I was very excited for Framework and I appreciate your responses here but this feels too early a backward move for Framework. Is the market/partnership worth the trust hit ? I hope I am wrong but this seems like going the Don't be evil way.
- top_sigrid 4y ago
  Soory to be harsh, but advertising hardware features "to give you control over your privacy" for a device that runs Google's tracking-ware OS is questionable to say the least.
jeroenhd 4y ago
I hate "performance" Chromebooks but I very much appreciate giving end users the choice to get their weird Google OS if they want it. More consumer choice at no cost in other features is only a good thing.
RunSet 4y ago
An operating system developed by the world's largest advertising corporation and the privacy of hardware camera and microphone switches: Nuts and gum, together at last.

choletentent 4y ago

I use a Chromebook for development as well. It's $100 computer and it is just fantastic. I throw it around with such peace of mind, and the battery life is just incredible! It has only one issue for me, it does not have enough power to run MS Teams on the brownser, and the Android app does not work well. A native app from MS would be quite nice :)

linsomniac 4y ago

I have a couple HP Chromebook 13 G1 laptops that I loved quite a lot for ~5 years as my primary personal laptop. It worked really well for 95% of my needs, especially once it got the Linux container support (which was ~4 years in). The first one I got was $550 for the 8GB RAM model with i5 and "retina" screen, that was a refurb from Woot, almost half off. The second one I got around a year ago when Linux container support landed, 16GB RAM, i7, "retina" screen. That one I got off ebay for $120 landed. I also got my son one that he used until a few days ago. Pretty decent little machine for that price. My son switched to a $120 Windows ASUS laptop this past weekend because the Chromebook wouldn't run Windows games. I was half expecting him to give up on the new laptop because 4GB isn't much RAM, but he says it works great. My mother in law was recently asking for laptop advice for a "ward of the court" she oversees that could do with a laptop to do zoom meetings for the court appearances, and to use for school. I went looking for Chromebooks and found: they are all priced the same as a similarly speced Windows laptop. The things I value about ChromeOS ("instant" updates, "nothing really on the device", "security") aren't things the average person (let alone teen) really care about... Kind of hard to recommend a Chromebook for the average person these days, unless I'm missing something.

hexo 4y ago

But... why. Why would anyone get a chromebook? I still dont get it. Whats the point of having one?

thebitstick 4y ago
For the same reasons people buy iPads and use them as laptops. I get it, but good luck taking away my Mac from my cold dead hands.
modeless 4y ago
Win11 and macOS and desktop Linux all suck in various ways. ChromeOS actually has far better security, boots faster, has less obtrusive automatic updates, supports Android apps, runs Steam (in beta), and has real Linux that you can use underneath instead of PowerShell or Cygwin or WSL or Apple's weird environment with no native package manager and a set of outdated utilities and a git binary that requires accepting the XCode license agreement again every time there's an update... Seems like half of HN readers think Google is the literal devil, but for the other half, why not ChromeOS?

aesh2Xa1 4y ago

If Google partnered with Microsoft to bring the complete Excel/Word/PowerPoint programs to ChromeOS, I would jump ship in a heartbeat for our office fleet. I wonder if CodeWeavers CrossOver can run Office on ChromeOS reliably.

water-your-self 4y ago
That is a space they are quite directly trying to win with their in browser suite of office tools, and chromeOS is, partly, a vehicle for that. I would be surprised to hear that G and MS partnered in that sort of a way.
- aesh2Xa1 4y ago
  I’d be just as satisfied for Google Sheets to become the standard. I have seen XLSX/DOCX as the standard format for a long time. The Google Workspace (GSuite) products don’t interoperate seamlessly, and they are not a compatible solution.

sahaskatta 4y ago

Any way to configure this with 16GB or more of RAM so that I don't need to upgrade later?

hoppyhoppy2 4y ago
There's only the one (8GB) configuration available for purchase. RAM upgrades, while possible, will have to be done yourself.

kelnos 4y ago

I hesitated posting this, because I don't want to be too negative, but: ugh. ChromeOS is just more Google adware/tracking-ware, locking people into the Google ecosystem, and (by default, at least) creating a more locked-down environment than a general-purpose OS would have (not quite iOS or even Android, but still not with the flexibility of a "mainstream" OS). I feel like Framework could be spending their time doing much better things. Granted, if they believe that this will be a big boost to their bottom line / margins / sustainability, then I'm in favor of it on the grounds of helping make sure Framework is a successful company. My hope was that this is just running on the standard Framework laptop hardware, but it looks like it required a bit of a mainboard redesign, as well as a different input cover and keyboard. Extra hardware like that just makes their offering more difficult for a customer to navigate and understand, not to mention the added support and manufacturing burden on the company's side.

askvictor 4y ago
While I share your concerns, the user experience and security of ChromeOS is so much nicer than Windows, or Linux (haven't used a Mac for ages so can't compare), for most tasks for most people. It's what I'd recommend to my grandparents. Also, completely disagree with your point about locking people into Google ecosystem - this is an OS that just runs a web browser. You need a Google account to log in, sure (actually, there's a guest mode too), but otherwise it's just a browser.
- m-p-3 4y ago
  Honestly, ChromeOS has been the best solution for my grandparents. I don't receive any calls to help them out with computer issues, which means I can spend more time with them instead of fixing stuff.
- wyldfire 4y ago
  I'm a fan of Linux and a fan of ChromeOS. but are the user experience and security better on ChromeOS than Linux? It's a bit simpler than linux but I'd say Linux is a close second.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

h0hiec6Dai2wi 4y ago

Not having the ServoV4 available to anyone but Google employees completely invalidates any praises of this thing being "open". Additionally, the Titan C chip included on the mainboard doesn't appear to be socketed (please correct me if I'm wrong), so you're basically stuck with a proprietary processor hooked into your machine doing god knows what. Note that the Titan C isn't open source like the "OpenTitan" project, which means they're basically privacy-washing chromebooks. I don't have a problem with them making a chromebook but not releasing Coreboot firmware for the existing boards is giving me bad vibes, really worried Framework's leadership is compromised.

amstan 4y ago
Servov4 is overkill unless you need to be testing your chromebook 24/7 in an automated fashion. Everything else can be done with a SuzyQ instead. https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/third_party/hdctools/+/HEAD/docs/ccd.md#making-your-own-suzyq https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/third_party/hdc... https://www.sparkfun.com/products/retired/14746 https://www.sparkfun.com/products/retired/14746 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGsyXlgSxFk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGsyXlgSxFk

yumraj 4y ago

Honestly I would have preferred if they’d offered a 15”-16” version instead of this. Oh well, looks like Apple’s gonna get my money..

malkia 4y ago

My best device for the last 3-4 years have been Eve Chromebook with 16GB of RAM and 512GB SSD - still can't find a newer Chromebook that matches it :( That's all I wanted... something newer that runs Vulkan too in Crostini :)

bhedgeoser 4y ago

Doesn't work in intellij

Mikeb85 4y ago

Seems like it's targeting the wrong crowd. Framework laptops would naturally appeal to the tinkerer and techie crowd, meanwhile ChromeOS is very much a casual user kind of OS. It makes sense to have $300 Acer laptops running ChromeOS, not so much a $1000 repairable laptop...

ncmncm 4y ago

I gave up waiting for the AMD version. Intel must be able to turn the screws down really tight on small shops. I wonder how it is done, exactly.

puyoxyz 4y ago

Chromebooks were great because they ran on ARM. Now all the new chromebooks run on Intel. I can’t find any ARM chromebooks at IRL stores anymore. ARM chromebooks > Intel chromebooks, and if they continue pushing Intel they’re killing the reason that chromebooks can be both cheap and good EDIT: And if you want to use it for Crostini… why are you getting a chromebook

4ggr0 4y ago

Still waiting for this laptop to be available where I live, I'm at the point where I'm loosing the last bit of hope and am considering to just buy a different product. Which really annoys me, because I was never as hyped for a laptop as for this one.

LoveMortuus 4y ago

I love my Chromebook and I'm not looking for a replacement, but I do still like to look at new devices. I personally think that this Framework Chromebook is way to expensive at 999$, but I do fine from a non USD economy, so many technologies coming from US are too expensive for me. That being said, my vision has always been that Chromebooks are light, affordable and battery life that will last longer then you. I paid around 400€ for my Chromebook, the most important specification was FHD IPS display and at least 12h of battery. I'm aware that Google made Chromebooks with very high prices, but I don't think many bought those. That's why seeing this laptop for 999$ seem a bit too much, especially now that you can get M1 MacBook Air for the same price! And it's just as user-friendly, if not slightly more.

Aissen 4y ago

What is the auto-update expiration date ? https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/6220366 https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/6220366

Aissen 4y ago
The answer is in the article: > The Framework Laptop Chromebook Edition […] receives automatic updates through June 2030