19 ms·

Tik Tok is a national security threat

298 points by Flatcircle 4y ago

yandrypozo 4y ago
[Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, Snapchat, Twitter] is a national security threat.
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > [Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, Snapchat, Twitter] is a national security threat. That's a lazy thing to say. It's obvious that TikTok is qualitatively different from the perspective of the US and its allies. It's like this: a gun in my hand could be a threat to me because I could accidentally shoot myself in the foot; but that's very different threat than a gun in the hand of a mugger who's pointing it at my head.
  - cwkoss 4y ago
    China is a national competitor, not an enemy who intends to kill us. Sinophobic propaganda has been unfortunately effective on too many people.
    - tablespoon 4y ago
      > China is a national competitor, not an enemy who intends to kill us. Sinophobic propaganda has been unfortunately effective on too many people. You missed the point. Analogies aren't a one-to-one mapping between every aspect one situation and another, and you're going to have trouble if you interpret them that way. In this case, you picked on a feature that doesn't map to the situation under discussion to make an inflammatory suggestion. To spell it out, very, very clearly: the analogy only demonstrates that "who holds the thing" is important for assessing a threat from a particular perspective. The US holds "[Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, Snapchat, Twitter]" (which are all banned in China) and China holds TikTok (which is not banned in the US).
      - cwkoss 4y ago
        Its your analogy. If you think it is misleading, maybe you should have chosen a different one. Maybe check your internal biases on why you chose one which includes murderous intent.
        tablespoon 4y ago
        > Its your analogy. If you think it is misleading, maybe you should have chosen a different one. It's not misleading, you just read too much into it. It's like quibbling with an analogy about "Alice and Bob" because your name isn't Alice or Bob. > Maybe check your internal biases on why you chose one which includes murderous intent. If someone is making an analogy about threats in general, it's silly to expect them to find a different a threat that's different but also exactly the same as the one being discussed. Analogies are used to highlight a particular aspect, and usually that means picking something that is different but very clearly highlights that particular aspect. Again, to spell it out, very, very clearly: a gun is an easily understood threat that almost everyone understands can be held by different people. It is a good object for illustrating how a threat changes based on who "holds" it.
    - NickC25 4y ago
      They want to be THE de-facto global hegemon. They've stated this time and time again. It's literally in their name (Middle Country). They don't want to kill us per-say, but they don't mind getting their hands dirty as long as the ends justify the means. In a battle over geopolitical, technological and militaristic superiority, killing one's enemy can happen.
    - reducesuffering 4y ago
      China is preparing to invade Taiwan in the coming decade and the US is committing to defend the 23 million people there from invasion. What part of that is propaganda?
      - pessimizer 4y ago
        > China is preparing to invade Taiwan in the coming decade Propaganda. You can tell because China has never said that it intends to invade Taiwan, and you have no inside information. Propaganda is what makes you think you have inside information. > the US is committing to defend the 23 million people there from invasion. That's not propaganda. As far as I can tell, it's as much a declaration of war as if Xi said, on video, that the would commit the Chinese military to defend Florida if there were any US effort to prevent DeSantis sending immigrants out of Florida on buses. China is not a submissive or weak country. I would honestly be surprised if they didn't start preparing to invade Taiwan (or as they would say, to send troops to Taiwan) ASAP after that interview. edit: We can have WWIII, but it will be the US, BJP, and various poor authoritarian Eastern European states vs. everyone else. It'll be like WWII, except we can be the Axis this time. Hitler was as surprised as anyone that we weren't in the Axis last time.
        tablespoon 4y ago
        >> China is preparing to invade Taiwan in the coming decade...What part of that is propaganda? > Propaganda. You can tell because China has never said that it intends to invade Taiwan, and you have no inside information. Uh dude, they repeatedly make it clear the option to invade is on the table, and they've even withdrawn a previous promise not to send military occupation forces. And if you haven't been paying attention: a little more than a month ago they conducted live-fire exercises that looked a lot like practicing for a blockade of Taiwan. That's all out in the open. "Inside information" is not necessary. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/8/10/china-reaffirms-threat-of-military-force-to-take-taiwan https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/8/10/china-reaffirms-thr...
        reducesuffering 4y ago
        Here's Alperovitch predicting it, who called the Russian invasion of Ukraine far in advance, while you were busy denying it would ever happen. https://www.politico.com/newsletters/digital-future-daily/2022/09/16/5-questions-for-dmitri-alperovitch-00057221 https://www.politico.com/newsletters/digital-future-daily/20... https://twitter.com/DAlperovitch/status/1570831201212203008 https://twitter.com/DAlperovitch/status/1570831201212203008 Here's you complaining about "horrifying virulence of Ukrainian nationalism", before the further invasion, definitely nothing about the soon to be start of Russian killing of Ukrainians. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27655651 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27655651 Here's you advocating "Even better, maybe we can push Russia into using some tiny nuke" on Ukrainians. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30794567 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30794567 That's all I have left to say to an obviously brainwashed war monger.
  - the_af 4y ago
    > It's obvious that TikTok is qualitatively different from the perspective of the US and its allies. For those of us not in the US, it's not that different. We are always at the mercy of tech companies from a foreign power.
    - anon291 4y ago
      Then build your own. I mean it... good luck. You should absolutely advocate for your countries to limit their influence, and perhaps ban them from your country. Best of luck, but as an American, there's little I can do, unless you want me voting in your elections.
      - the_af 4y ago
        I'm sure you realize it's not that easy to "build your own" (for whatever tech, social network, internet, computers, etc). You don't have a head start and there are powerful forces working against you, both internal and external. Though it's not outside the possibilities of a nation, it's still very hard.
        anon291 4y ago
        I completely understand having divested myself of facebook, twitter and google and the like. I think if more nation states engaged, they would have more power than individuals or groups. Look what happened to parler, gab, and truth.
    - tablespoon 4y ago
      > For those of us not in the US, it's not that different. We are always at the mercy of tech companies from a foreign power. That may be true, but the OP tweet (https://twitter.com/zachtratar/status/1571595169207812096 https://twitter.com/zachtratar/status/1571595169207812096) is referring to Americans specifically, and even for non-Americans, it's different for American-allied countries vs. ones with a more adversarial relationship. I don't think Americans would be concerned about TikTok if it were based in the UK or Italy, for instance.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - angryasian 4y ago
    Cambridge analytica / Facebook misinformation and usage within its borders would let you know all social media companies are a problem
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    > That's a lazy thing to say. It's obvious that TikTok is qualitatively different from the perspective of the US and its allies. No, it's lazy to say that your assertion is obviously true rather than arguing for it. It's an easy thing to do when you're part of a government-led crowd.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- hulitu 4y ago
  Microsoft, Google Adobe
mikewarot 4y ago
Twitter is also a national security threat for similar reasons. It's tempting to say that advertising supported internet services in general, devolve into them. The tracking technology used to help target advertising is a perfect tool for use by repressive regimes and organizations of any size or scale. Offline caching and sharing of content in a distributed fashion, where it isn't possible to get real-time location data, for example, is one possible route around this problem. Perhaps it's time to revisit the Memex concept, and make computers personal again.
- kipchak 4y ago
  I think this is it, the benefits of collecting from and sending to a person is valuable to advertisers as well as governments for similar reasons and applications, namely engineering consent. The trouble I see is that because of it's utility it seems unlikely to go away. But also, what is the difference between being made to believe something via for example via a persuasive essay and a TikTok video, if the intent and result of both is the same?
panny 4y ago
Yes, I only use American spyware social media and hardware. Like my Android phone with gboard keylogger sending everything I type to Google.
- Aaronstotle 4y ago
  The U.S. does it too is not a reason to dismiss the claims brought by these type of posts.
  - henryfjordan 4y ago
    Yes it does. If someone complains about somebody else doing the exact same thing they are doing, then the issue isn't with the action but the "somebody else", aka racism.
    - macintux 4y ago
      Or the “somebody else”, geopolitical rival with unfriendly motives.
    - panny 4y ago
      Correct. My subtle point is authoritarian Americans only care about spyware data when it is out of their reach
  - tzs 4y ago
    I'm not so sure. A ton of apps and sites and businesses in the US collect a ton of information and sell it to data brokers. Even many state governments give or sell plenty of personal data to data brokers, such as voter data and driver's license data. There is little to no regulation of the data broker business. Stopping Americans from using foreign owned apps over fear that foreign governments will get too much personal data seems pointless because those foreign governments can just buy data from American data brokers. You can't realistically expect to have personal data largely unprotected within your country and at the same time expect to keep that data within the country.
  - operationGladio 4y ago
aftbit 4y ago
IMO the data privacy angle is not super important. There isn't that much that TikTok can collect from you anyway. IMO much more important is that the videos that are shown to you while you mindlessly scroll for that next dopamine hit are controlled by the CCP.
- CharlesW 4y ago
  > There isn't that much that TikTok can collect from you anyway. IMO much more important is that the videos that are shown to you while you mindlessly scroll for that next dopamine hit are controlled by the CCP. The way they're so successful at the latter is by being really good at the former. If you've used it, they've (at minimum) built a psychographic profile used for content and ad targeting.
  - spiderice 4y ago
    The data is what makes them so good at keeping you on their platform, yes. But that data isn't inherently useful to the CCP. I think what GP is getting at, is that TikTok could easily start showing 80 million Americans whatever political agenda they deem appropriate. 1 week before an American election? 80 million Americans start being bombarded with "Why you should vote how the CCP wants you to vote" videos. That is a national security threat. Edit: Changed "20% of Americans" to "80 million Americans"
    - MiguelX413 4y ago
      This sounds just like online advertising to me.
      - adampk 4y ago
        The changes in algorithms directed by the CCP can be tracked like purchases of online ads through facebook/twitter? What kind of nonsense comparison is this good lord.
        4y ago
NotYourLawyer 4y ago
None of this is good, but… how much damage can they really do with this data?
- defen 4y ago
  Imagine an actually-good version of the Russian "influence operations" in the US (where they bought a couple hundred thousand worth of Facebook ads for the 2016 election to run shitty memes that didn't even sound like they were written by native speakers). If TikTok is this good at figuring out your general interests, it can probably figure out your political leanings as well. And tailor your content accordingly, in a way that furthers the interests of China. Whether that be by increasing/decreasing propensity to vote, increasing outrage, planting false narratives, etc.
  - cwkoss 4y ago
    "What if China did what facebook did, but more competently" lol
    - defen 4y ago
      Well, it's undeniable that they are more competent than Facebook in this domain; the proof is in the pudding. So in your terms, you're trading an incompetent domestic influence operation for a competent foreign one. Hard to see how that's a good trade for the US.
      - cwkoss 4y ago
        Yeah. The main thing that bothers me is that the media isn't discussing any generalized data protection reforms as a response to this - the story is "data collection is only scary because it's china doing it."
        defen 4y ago
        It's not just collection though. If China had access to everyone's credit card purchase info (they probably already do, but whatever), that's "data collection". But with TikTok they also have an obvious mechanism to directly affect behavior using the data they collected. That's not something you could easily do with just demographic or financial info alone.
mikece 4y ago
Google and Facebook would LOVE to have TikTok banned because TikTok is eating their lunch right now, attracting advertising money at a rate that is an existential threat to them both.
- CharlesW 4y ago
  The enemy of your enemy can still be your worst enemy.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    Are the Chinese your worst enemy? How did they hurt you?
    - gremlinsinc 4y ago
      They've hurt many in Ukraine by siding with Russia. I for one support Ukraine and in that way they could be seen as an enemy. Also anything resembling fascism in the least bit should be demonized, CCP/Russia are ruled by fascists as are the majority of their allies (read: dictatorships/military ruled countries aka non democratic/republic/parliamentarian countries). If there's a world war 3, you better believe the powers will be USA, Western EU, Japan, Australia, Taiwan, NZ, (maybe India), (maybe israel), against China, Russia, Venezuela, Cuba, maybe Brazil, et al. I don't say this because they're communist, etc. I like aspects of communism, I say this because they rule like the book 1984 is a guidebook, not a work of fiction.
      - bsnnkv 4y ago
        Just curious, which side of the divide do you think predominantly Muslim countries would fall on in this WW3 scenario? Asking to satisfy my constant hunger for alternate-history/possible-future worldbuilding.
    - CharlesW 4y ago
      “Worst enemy” in this case refers to TikTok, not “the Chinese”.
ecommerceguy 4y ago
Isn't TikTok effectively ran by Oracle in USA? https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/17/technology/tiktok-oracle-servers.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/17/technology/tiktok-oracle-... How did Oracle get its start, remind me? https://gizmodo.com/larry-ellisons-oracle-started-as-a-cia-project-1636592238 https://gizmodo.com/larry-ellisons-oracle-started-as-a-cia-p...
- ecommerceguy 4y ago
  Looks like some spooks didn't like my comment, typical HN.
ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago
As we see TikTok eating everyone's lunch we will see a last gasp flurry of PR firms from Facebook, Google trying to spam these articles.
- alexfromapex 4y ago
  Was something about eating lunch in the post thread? Seems strange there’s another comment with the same wording
  - xboxnolifes 4y ago
    It's a common phrase.
  - hutzlibu 4y ago
    It is a metaphor for TikTok gets more marketshare from FB and co.
guilhas 4y ago
TikTok is the best app of its type, and for the first time USA being beaten by a foreign country to develop an international successfully app. Also one of the first times China developers catered for an outside audience. Obviously this has huge implications and the USA is quite offended When China said Gmail/Facebook/Instagram... was a security threat, USA called it censorship, so now they're in a pickle And it is obviously a security threat, but USA does not care as long they're the ones spying the world, and their own population Also USA is much more prone to foreign interference, like their drones using cellular data in foreign countries to kill people, elections, blackmail, etc... So as an European I would say.. fight fight fight! No one wants to become China but USA/UK/EU/AUS... are slowly becoming more authoritarian anyway. Maybe some competition will make them wake up and remember what they used to stand for
asiandeveloper 4y ago
2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
A lot of commenters either haven't researched the topic or lack imagination. What can China do with the data and attention of 80 million Americans? How about practically anything they want. They haven't used it yet.
- SilverBirch 4y ago
  This isn't about research, it's about preconception. You imagine that you've got 80 million Americans watching cute dog videos and you can find some algorithm to feed them communist propaganda or whatever. In reality what happens is you start fucking with their cute dog videos and they all immediately turn off. What made Facebook and Youtube dangerous is they enabled a pre-existing trend to just slowly trudge further into the extreme and insane. Yes, there are highways to hysteria. But they're embedded in humans and reinforced by algorithms, you can't just pick the way you want to go. The far right on facebook isn't really distinguishable from talk radio, because it's reinforcing not creating. Now, you could say that's bad in itself, but at the end of the day, extremism is often far ight Americans using their free speech to talk to other far right Americans. Right up until they storm the capitol.
- the_af 4y ago
  Do note this situation is maybe new for Americans, i.e. people from the US. For many of us in the rest of the world, it turns out this scenario of "foreign power in control of the tech and data we use daily" has been a reality for ages. It's just that the foreign power wasn't China.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
    It's not the foreign part that bothers me- it's the adversary part.
    - the_af 4y ago
      Would it surprise you that people in some countries in the world (I don't mean China or Russia, mind you) would consider the US as adversarial at times?
cwkoss 4y ago
Can anyone point to something that TikTok is doing that FB/Google/Twitter aren't already doing, that we should be concerned about? All the anti-tiktok takes seem to be rooted in sinophobia and nationalist sour grapes. I don't like megacorps slurping my info up, but these conversations seem to have huge blinders around what has become standard practice for American web companies - especially when handling the data of foreign users.
- cwkoss 4y ago
  To answer my own question - the in-browser keylogger story was concerning to me. If it was actually transmitting the within-browser keystroke data back to tiktok servers, that would be quite concerning... except that I already avoid their browser like the plague because it sucks, so I just retype URLs into my default browser in the rare cases I want to follow a link in someone's profile.
  - angryasian 4y ago
    This is any in app browser that has access to it. Its not specific to tiktok. Nothing against you but this disinformation towards tiktok is laugable
- CharlesW 4y ago
  > Can anyone point to something that TikTok is doing that FB/Google/Twitter aren't already doing, that we should be concerned about? If you're okay with FB/Google/Twitter sharing all of the data they have on you with the CCP, there's not a big difference.
  - sniperjzp 4y ago
    Not trying to defend TikTok, FB/Google/Twitter are not sharing data with CCP, but they are sharing data with CIA owned by Uncle Sam.
    - dvngnt_ 4y ago
      that's worse imo
aaron695 4y ago
prh8 4y ago
Reading through that thread and then a bit more of his twitter, just seems like yet another wannabe Dan Price style philosopher, acting like the enlightened person residing at the center of every debate. None of his arguments are particularly concerning or unique considering how much every other company lobbies and evades governments.
- ztratar 4y ago
  Hello, OP here. I do not aspire to be Dan Price. That is all.
Julesman 4y ago
Ok, so how about the Terms of Service are just honest and we see if everyone still agrees? Personally, I'm happy to trade my psych profile for that sweet sweet content.
gigatexal 4y ago
It’s not, yet. Until there’s actual proof of the CCP pushing propaganda onto western users we can talk but otherwise it’s just incumbents upset they can’t compete.
andrewinardeer 4y ago
I am convinced that TikTok is addictive to a subset of the population by using the same methologies that video gambling machines employ - colour, movement, dopamine fluctuations and ease of use. I also think that the use of infinite scrolling is unethical. Facebook and Twitter drive user engagement differently as they have discovered that illicting negative emotions makes their offerings more "sticky". Then there is their algorithm. It's good. Extraordinarily good. One day they will tweak it to sow narratives that the US or western governments find offensive and I'm guessing this is the real reason for it being a "national security threat".
endisneigh 4y ago
Maybe all countries should block all foreign apps. Back to the isolationist ways George Washington wanted. Let’s skip all of the hand wringing and get to the conclusion here.
operationGladio 4y ago
[flagged]
skilled 4y ago
'Are There TikTok Employees... Who Are Members Of The Chinese Communist Party?' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meWM8d4Uz7Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meWM8d4Uz7Q -- It's a fascinating video in the sense that you can clearly tell that this COO is hiding information. I mean it's so blatant I am surprised the platform is still up and running, anywhere in the West to be honest.
daniel-cussen 4y ago
- ars 4y ago
  Were you hacked? Your posts in the last 4 hours are pages of gibberish.
  - daniel-cussen 4y ago
    Par for the course. Hey did you actually scan from top to bottom, left to right? Might have seen something interesting. Dude in particular the cockroach comment on http://fgemm.com http://fgemm.com came out so...so very fine, I'm so happy with it. Ended up pulling the stunt, not pictures of me but pictures of a deleted memory from my metamorphosis, I hadn't seen that magic card or remembered its name in 22 years. And then it was lobotomized, and then I flashed on it in the moment. Quite pleased with that.
    - daniel-cussen 4y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32849922#32903619 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32849922#32903619 So you see it. I mean since you read all the gibberish, to know it was all gibberish.
fabiofzero 4y ago
So is Facebook, yet here we are
Flatcircle 4y ago
The whatabout-ism regarding American companies doing similar stuff can be explained by that great quote, “in the United States the journalists are so powerful they can throw politicians in jail, in China the politicians are so powerful they can throw journalists in jail.” The CCP is getting this data, and they have significantly more carte blanche to do nefarious things than US government officials do.
- tomjen3 4y ago
  If China tells my government to throw me in jail, they will be laughed at in the press. If the us tells my government that I am a terrorist, I am getting my door kicked in at 3 a.m. Unless you travel there, China is a pointless waste human potential.
- pphysch 4y ago
  Famous Chinese dissident journalist Julian Assange.
  - jahewson 4y ago
    Which US jail is he in?
    - pphysch 4y ago
      TBD until the US extradites him, assuming he doesn't die in solitary confinement in a UK prison on behalf of the US government.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  At least China doesn't seem to be out-right mass murdering people around the globe with explicit approval and support of its population. Or at leas the population being complicit by not taking the justice in their hands when they are able to.
kelseyfrog 4y ago
This is actually a good thing. Let me explain. If there is a market for domestic video-based social networks, then it should be low-hanging fruit for a US-based provider to offer a competitive product. If there isn't then the market has spoken, and consumers have voted with their attention. There aren't any other interpretations that don't deprive the invisible hand of the market from delivering providence to consumers. These are rational actors making voluntary choices. Foreign policy should simply stay out as any intervention is necessarily a market distortion. If market actors are consuming it, it's good definitionally.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  > it should be low-hanging fruit for a US-based provider to offer a competitive product. It was called Vine, and we let our monopolists buy it and shut it down.
  - emptyparadise 4y ago
    Imagine being the Twitter executive that signed Vine's death warrant.
    - kelseyfrog 4y ago
      I am. It feels really good - like getting a big bonus.
- kderbyma 4y ago
  You are simplifying a bit. You expect the abilities for a small team to beat out a chinese-government backed behemoth
angryasian 4y ago
As_You_Wish 4y ago
Wow. This entire thread seems to be written by Chinese agents, looking to, on the surface, minimize the threat against the West by China. Clearly TikTok can be a national security issue. All these comments do not address this at all, and seem to do their best to ridicule a valid concern. Obviously the issue is that the data from TikTok is required to go to the Chinese government as do the algorithms. China has clearly benefitted from the West, by all the money and IP that we have given it, by the products we purchase. Now, the Chinese are biting the hand that feeds it, by becoming an ally of Russia. By actively looking to undermine the West. To deny this is to deny reality,unless you are saying all the reports on how the Chinese are doing this is "fake news." . https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/russia-and-china-unveil-a-pact-against-america-and-the-west https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/russia-and-chin... Robert Daly, the director of the Kissinger Institute on China and the United States, at the Wilson Center, in Washington, said “This is a pledge to stand shoulder to shoulder against America and the West, ideologically as well as militarily,” . The difference between TikTok and all Chinese apps is that the government essentially owns all companies, whereas in the West, this is not the case. Western governments can only access data from private companies if they have a search warrant. Furthermore, I believe China will be seeking to invade Taiwan soon, and take over all their chip-making technology. Their population and economy is crashing, so now is the time to invade Taiwan. To just dismiss these concerns about TikTok out of hand, without any discussion, is clearly wrong. This entire thread seems like it was written by the CCP sleeper HN users. . Also, as noted by trident5000 below, China has access to all USA users of TikTok., but the USA or anyone else doesn't have access to Chinese users of TikTok. That's just one more issue to add on, and I'm sure there are others, too.
- matsemann 4y ago
  No, we're just non-US people not seeing the difference between US agencies forcing FB/Google etc to hand over our data, or China forcing TikTok. Or even US people believing their data can be misused more by their own government, than a country they will never visit. Also, my data on Fb/Google is much, much more personal than whatever TikTok has on me.
  - 4y ago
duxup 4y ago
If another nation bans outside social media networks ... I see no reason that we shouldn't do the same to those that operate from that nation. The amount of data available is just too much to hand over in a one way relationship.
- AlexandrB 4y ago
  Wait, but it would be ok for a Chinese company to gather data on US citizens as long as our companies could gather data on Chinese citizens? What about countries that are not China or the US? Those are all one way relationships when it comes to Facebook/Twitter. As a Canadian, a lot of the arguments about why TikTok is a national security threat come off as extremely US-centric. If applied consistently these ideas result in each country having its own social networking companies.
  - duxup 4y ago
    That seems like something you consider after you get past what i described. As for other nations I strongly believe there is a real difference between more free and very much non free nations. But to your original point I'd have no problem with raising the issue of if apps should even be able to gather all this data... but again that's after the issue I raised is resolved.
Overtonwindow 4y ago
This is hilarious. Social media is a threat to national security. The Internet is a threat to national security. People have a desire to be seen and see others. So long as we have that desire, and the Internet makes it possible, there will always be a TikTok. The only reason they’re really saying it’s a national security threat is because of how big it’s gotten. What about Facebook? I would say Facebook represents a far greater threat to national security than TikTok.
ztratar 4y ago
Hi, uh.... OP here (from twitter). Didn't realize someone posted this! And honestly I was expecting like 20 likes total. Anyways, want to clarify a couple things: - All of the information presented is accurate. And the questions are fair. - I am not defending FB or other tech companies broadly. I'm pro data locality. - China is an authoritarian mass surveillance state that forcibly squashes detractors and limits individual freedoms. The US has made many mistakes, but it still doesn't come comparably close to this. - Please for the love of God don't compare me to Dan Price. Please? lmao.
- subroutine 4y ago
  IMO if TikTok can operate in the US, then Twitter, FB, etc. should be allowed to operate in China. It's the lopsided (potential) to influence the other market/populace that doesn't sit well with me.
  - pphysch 4y ago
    Many Western companies do operate in China, but may have to significantly adapt their processes to comply with local regulation. Simple example: visual media has to be edited to remove excessive depictions of death. Which specific US regulations is TikTok currently violating, and where is the hard evidence to support that?
    - JSGdev 4y ago
      No, china requires specific strictures so such companies don't allow free speech that contradicts the party's communist doctrine or social aims. America is a free country so we don't require that. Problem is, this gives china influence over America but not the other way around. This is a bad thing both because it's asymmetrical and because America at least tries for freedom while china is a force against. Stop making these nonsense "both sides" arguments pretending china and America are equivalent.
      - pphysch 4y ago
        They obviously do not have "equivalent" regulations. Can you please answer the question instead of engaging in ideological appeals?
subroutine 4y ago
The thing that bothers me the most about TikTok is how it's allowed to operate with little restriction in the US but US-based companies do not have nearly the same level of freedom to operate in China e.g. fb is banned in CPP).
- malshe 4y ago
  Absolutely. This is so damn puzzling to me.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  US-based companies can operate in China if they respect Chinese laws. TikTok isn't given any special privilege to operate outside of US law.
  - sarchertech 4y ago
    That is essentially a meaningless statement. If there was a Chinese law that stated foreign companies had to turn over 90% ownership to the government, your statement would still hold true.
    - flyaway123 4y ago
      "Your house, my rules." Is this what you are suggesting?
      - subroutine 4y ago
        If someone's house rules are so strict that nobody wants to hold game night there, yet this person loves playing in other people's (far less restrictive) homes, how long before we stop inviting them?
        perlwle 4y ago
        You don't invite friends to your home just because his/her mom has strict rule in their home?
Barrin92 4y ago
Having worked in the Chinese tech sector I have honestly no idea where this cartoonish idea comes from that the Chinese government magically runs every tech company in the country. I seriously question if anyone who says that has any personal experience with the country at all. This is some strange techno-orientalism where Asian governments apparently have superpowers nobody else possesses. Does anyone here think the American government is physically able to own or run every technology company or even one? The Chinese tech sector, including TikTok (which is a distinct western entity anyway, the Chinese app is called Doujin) faced comparatively little oversight, and regulators usually aren't exactly competent. Chinese entrepreneurs navigate laws and regulations just like they do everywhere else, with the added difficulty that they tend to be even more confusing than anywhere else. There is no mastermind sitting in a dark room smoking a cigar controlling entire sectors of the economy, because only the tech companies actually know how to operate themselves, same as anywhere else. The government in China considers its own tech sector to be a competing power center, not some extended arm of the party, which is why they brought the hammer down on significant parts of the industry recently, wiping out ungodly sums of money in the process. You don't do that to an asset. Chinese tech tends to attempt to skirt the rules (usually for its own benefit) whenever possible.
- nova22033 4y ago
  Having worked in the Chinese tech sector I have honestly no idea where this cartoonish idea comes from that the Chinese government magically runs every tech company in the country. I seriously question if anyone who says that has any personal experience with the country at all. I just ate...ergo, there's no world hunger...
  - pphysch 4y ago
    I didn't just eat, therefore there's a teapot orbiting around Mars. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot
- ztratar 4y ago
  The CCP literally sits on the board of ByteDance. ByteDance CEO Zhang Yiming has stated on the record that he will ensure his products serve to promote the CCP’s propaganda agenda. Companies that refuse, such as Alibaba, are stripped of their power and their leader (e.g. Jack Ma) literally disappear for months. Read more about what happened with WeChat as well: https://chinamediaproject.org/2018/04/11/tech-shame-in-the-new-era/ https://chinamediaproject.org/2018/04/11/tech-shame-in-the-n...
nova22033 4y ago
Today: The CCP now has your data What data does the CCP have? The people I follow? The kind of videos I like to watch. My favorites? Videos I "liked"? How exactly is this a national security threat? I'm all for pushing back against the CCP but it's not clear what "data" they have
- kfrzcode 4y ago
  All of your related data, on any app you've used on your phone. Read the ToS.
  - pphysch 4y ago
    TikTok has a rootkit now? What did I miss?
- octoberfranklin 4y ago
  It's location data, but none of the US Surveillance State wants to admit this. They're upset about China having this data, but don't want to admit that they have it themselves. This is why all the public discourse on this topic is so utterly incoherent.
- ksubedi 4y ago
  Let me be the devil's advocate here, they basically have a map of your interests and likes and things that grab your attention. I am not saying China is going to do this, but if a malicious actor wanted to abuse this data, they could potentially craft curated videos that feed your biases using your interests and potentially make you believe any propaganda they wanted. Now imagine a machine learning model doing this instead of humans, it could infer so much more information about how you think and how your brain works based off of that data and do even more harm. Ever thought about buying something and an ad for that casually pops up in your feed? It is going to be similar to that, but instead of ads for a product it could be some misinformation that could cause paranoia (just an example).
  - pessimizer 4y ago
beepbooptheory 4y ago
Can't think of a bigger dissonance between most people and a typical HN commenter than this. Its a good intersection of infosec and geopolitical nerdom in general, but mostly it allows programmers to think that their expertise has bearing on something so seemingly serious and huge, when their work doesnt usually give them that opportunity. So I understand the fervor that way only because it just can't all be the typical superiority dynamic presented here a lot with layman's consumption habits, its just so extra with anything about software and China. I hope you guys get a fight worth your time one day.
octoberfranklin 4y ago
People would take this whole situation more seriously if it weren't always discussed in such evasive terms as "US Data". What data, exactly? The truth is that every cell phone is a tracking device, and the US government loves this. The only thing they're upset about is anybody other than themselves having all this tracking device data. So when a China-based company gets a hold of it, they're upset, but they can't really articulate why they're upset, because it would amount to an admission of how much they love their precious surveillance economy/state. Instead they just sort of stammer and sputter about "US Data". I feel a certain Schadenfreude about this situation.
fmajid 4y ago
At a simpler level, it's a travesty that TikTok is allowed to operate in the US when Google, Facebook, Twitter et al are banned in China. Trump had the right idea in seeking to ban it, until he reverted to type and turned that into a shake-down instead.
karmasimida 4y ago
Titkok is a threat because it threatens US internet monopoly which is 100% true. How it would be dealt with is a different story. I see different Admin would take different approaches, the wait won't be too long.
version_five 4y ago
Worth mentioning, ByteDance now also has an office productivity suite: https://www.larksuite.com/ https://www.larksuite.com/ I'd be interested to know what kind of reception this has had in the US, given the reputation of tiktok, regardless of however it actually is for privacy and security
guelo 4y ago
I agree it's a huge security threat but framing it as data privacy issue is a distraction from the real concern which is top-down censorship. People think of TikTok as pure algorithm but that's wrong, the algorithm is manipulated directly by the CCP. They've censored BlackLivesMatter[1], blocked a teenager discussing China’s genocide in Xinjiang[2], blocked a video of Tank Man[3], Hong Kong protests and Houston Rockets basketball team[4]. TikTok guidelines censor Tiananmen Square, Tibetan independence, and the Falun Gong[5]. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/02/tiktok-blacklivesmatter-cens https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/02/tiktok-blacklivesmatter-cens... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/nov/28/tiktok-sa https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/nov/28/tiktok-sa... [3] https://qz.com/1788836/targeting-tiktoks-privacy-alone-misse https://qz.com/1788836/targeting-tiktoks-privacy-alone-misse... [4] https://stratechery.com/2019/the-china-cultural-clash/ https://stratechery.com/2019/the-china-cultural-clash/ [5] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/sep/25/revealed- https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/sep/25/revealed-...
0xbadcafebee 4y ago
> 80 million Americans now spend 20% of their free time scrolling through an algorithmic content experience owned by the Chinese Government. As opposed to a billion people spending 20% of their free time scrolling through a Facebook feed (back when Facebook was a thing). Honestly, the more these issues get raised, the more it's clear that there's really no difference between a government and a corporation except one spends money and the other makes money. We have been slowly moving into a post-Democratic version of globalism for decades. Consumerism is not a bulwark against oppression, and we've mostly only had the illusion of choice or control in our political process, with oligarchs deciding everything rather than the "δῆμος". Totalitarian empires have been the dominant model of human civilization for the past couple thousand years; there's no reason to believe it wouldn't continue. China will be leading the new global status quo, which will combine heightened entertainment with heightened totalitarianism. Orwell was a prophet, a century early.
dukeofdoom 4y ago
FBI, and beurocrats want to control the discourse, and pick favorites which candidates Americans get. It's harder to do that when platform is foreign. Still perhaps the best thing for Americans to have an alternative main stream source of information. Platforms should not get to do view point discrimination and censorship. Pendulums swing, and public opinion matters..the law will follow.
adampk 4y ago
I am glad hackernews has not fallen to the nihilism that most other platforms have when clearly attacked by foreign agents or special interests astroturfing and using whataboutism. Most other communities just go along with nihilism about democracy because it is in vogue to pretend we are another authoritarian regime. Nice to see the nerds haven't given up :)
- pessimizer 4y ago
  https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/09/19/pentagon-orders-review-psyops-after-takedown-fake-social-accounts/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/09/19/pentagon-... https://www.theverge.com/2022/9/19/23360688/pentagon-review-military-influence-operations-social-media https://www.theverge.com/2022/9/19/23360688/pentagon-review-...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
thiagoharry 4y ago
- dang 4y ago
  It's against the site guidelines to use HN for political/ideological/nationalistic battle, and your account seems to be doing a lot of that. We ban accounts that use HN primarily for this—regardless of what they're battling for or against—so if you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and fix this, we'd appreciate it. You've also posted good comments, so I don't want to ban you. Note this guideline too though: "Don't be snarky."
subjectsigma 4y ago
I'm so fucking tired of coming into these threads and seeing people false flag, shill, whine, moan, complain, strawman... We need to start by banning these god awful threads. Then we move onto TikTok, then onto gutting Meta and Twitter.
czscout 4y ago
I don't really understand how this is any different from any other social media platform besides the entity your data is being sent back to. Is the Chinese government really any worse than Google, Meta, etc.? I think if you really feel passionately about this specific instance, then you should also feel the same passion about any other social media platform that collects your data and does with it what they please.
- jimkleiber 4y ago
  In theory, as a US citizen, I have some control over the government oversight of Google, Facebook, etc., probably much less over TikTok. So while I can feel angry and frustrated with what the Googles and FBs do, I also believe I have a little more power, whereas I feel a bit more powerless over TikTok.
- DoItToMe81 4y ago
  It isn't. It's just fearmongering and deflection of a serious issue with datamining companies having free reign to act as unethically as they so desire onto the scary foreigners.
frozencell 4y ago
Same emperor, new clothes. It's the same at home in the US, not with CCP but CIA & Cie so.
sys_64738 4y ago
Tik Tok is a garbage dumpster filled with junk. It’s no more a threat than an empty can of tomato soup. It is hated because it can’t be bought and controlled by Facebook as it’s a China company.
togs 4y ago
Everyone is talking past each other.
ineedasername 4y ago
And the very limited lip service paid to hosting/keeping US data in the US was basically a nice massive government-mediated sale for Oracle
helen___keller 4y ago
The biggest risk is chinas potential future influence over the content being pushed on TikTok. This is also where the law is least prepared for regulation. On the privacy side, If lawmakers really cared about TikTok data ending up in China, I’m sure congress could pass a powerful privacy law modeled off the CCPA or GDPR. This hasn’t happened so I’m assuming it isn’t considered a very serious national security threat. On the content side, I don’t think the world has a very good model for regulating algorithmic content streams. The biggest risk is also the hardest problem to tackle
seer-zig 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
hayst4ck 4y ago
A lot of the sentiment in this thread makes it clear that Social Media (Google/FB/TikTok) is a tool capable of exerting power, a weapon. The great firewall of china prevents American "weapons" from running rampant on Chinese citizens. Meanwhile America has no digital border, so Chinese weapons are able to run rampant on us. If you ask just about anyone "Is it ok for China to store bombs in our cities, while they prevent us from putting bombs in theirs" the answer is obvious. Despite this America has chosen a "one internet" strategy to prevent the balkanization of the internet and generally has an anti-protectionism strategy. The far more interesting question is "despite the obvious national security risk posed by TikTok, why might it be preferable to not block it?"
- moralestapia 4y ago
  * yawns * I remember when the CCP was evil for bringing up this firewall and how repressed all their citizens were and how we should be happy because we live in a free and open society blah blah blah And now firewalls are good, because apparently now apps are "national security threats", interesting. Weathervane morals at its finest.
- kelseyfrog 4y ago
  These bombs are merely ideas. We should be so lucky to expand access to a diverse set of products in the marketplace of ideas.
  - hayst4ck 4y ago
    These aren't just ideas, these are adversarial fingers on the scale, particularly in a country that has a nearly 50/50 schism. Then there are the intelligence possibilities. There is potentially geolocation, timing information, visual information, identifier based information, text scraping based information, artifact information, and social graph information. When and where a person sleeps, commutes, works, and vacations. Who shows up in my pictures and contact list, potentially how close those relationships are. What types of devices might show up on my network. It's possible to potentially connect a TikTok account to other public accounts based on links, shares, text, or other content. I don't now what an apps ability to scrape through photos on a phone in the background is, but even a hash on every photo could be used to identify anyone who has a non public photo on their phone. Direct messages are their own treasure trove. You might be able to fingerprint the device or collect version information which might make landing a vulnerability on a particular target easier. If I gave you the TikTok database and a function that will control what shows up in peoples feeds, I don't think it's very hard to imagine ways to create civil unrest, promote a friendly politician, identify military members, identify politicians, identify politicians children, diminish trust in public institutions, increase hopelesness/depression, drive up hatred to outgroups (people of a different gender race or sexual preference), or drive up hatred towards police. We are living in an age where the ideas of objective truth and intellectual authority are gone. Nuance is dead. Everyone can choose their own reality. Presenting emotionally satisfying, yet ultimately destructive realities to people seems like the type of thing that can become quite problematic. As a side note, from an ideological point of view, I am against banning TikTok, but it's hard not to see that it is the pragmatically correct thing to do. Certainly if China were to invade Taiwan, I think pragmatic concerns would exceed ideological ones.
RhysU 4y ago
I keep thinking the endgame is a Lucius Fox/Dark Night-style, on-demand surveillance network. No basis in fact.
dafoex 4y ago
Why are they worried? If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear! Or does that only work when the Americans are spying on everything we say and do both online and off? This is terrible, but its also karma.
foverzar 4y ago
I remember some years ago I saw the same rhetoric on Meta's (Facebook) services in Russia. Meta ended getting restricted in Russia and branded as "extremist" due to some ugly story with moderation rules and hate-speach. All this is generally considered as a backwards decision and is criticized both in Russia and in the West. I wonder when will we see the same for TikTok in the US and how would it be implemented. AFAIK, Trump had threatened to ban TikTok during his last presidency, but how would it be implemented practically? It seems that previously the US had only restricted internet by undelegating/seizing domains, but that would be scandalous for an international corporation. Nationalization maybe? It seems that had already "partly" happened with that Trump incident - TikTok had to restructure a bit and let a few American investors in, strings attached. In any case, this situation is a boon for America's competitors, as it is a yet another demonstration of America's integrity failing.
jasonm23 4y ago
Facebook is an existential threat. Can we turn the hyperbole up to 11?
kderbyma 4y ago
I have always had a bad guy feeling about tiktok. It never seemed right to me how it grew so quickly. It screams of privacy concerns even beyond what Facebook was doing and came after years of public scrutiny and general contempt for those kinds of privacy nightmares..... everything about it says to me it was supported by military/government programs from early on and it was obvious to me that anything that powerful came with strings.... I saw Facebook turn into a monster....and it still doesn't have the data access that tiktok gets.....
- webinvest 4y ago
  Tiktok grew via advertising extensively on YouTube. It was the website with most of its mainstream target demographic and content similarities.
t0bia_s 4y ago
Why not to explain to public why privacy matters and what real consequences are if you don't care and constantly doomscrooling? I'm against any types of censorship. If you value freedom, you cannot implement practises of enemy. To be clear... I'm not social media user, because of many ethical and technical issues that they have. And I know about them because I'm able to find that information or practically reproduce. With regulations, I wouldn't.

298 points by Flatcircle 4y ago

yandrypozo 4y ago

[Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, Snapchat, Twitter] is a national security threat.

tablespoon 4y ago
> [Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, Snapchat, Twitter] is a national security threat. That's a lazy thing to say. It's obvious that TikTok is qualitatively different from the perspective of the US and its allies. It's like this: a gun in my hand could be a threat to me because I could accidentally shoot myself in the foot; but that's very different threat than a gun in the hand of a mugger who's pointing it at my head.
- cwkoss 4y ago
  China is a national competitor, not an enemy who intends to kill us. Sinophobic propaganda has been unfortunately effective on too many people.
  - tablespoon 4y ago
    > China is a national competitor, not an enemy who intends to kill us. Sinophobic propaganda has been unfortunately effective on too many people. You missed the point. Analogies aren't a one-to-one mapping between every aspect one situation and another, and you're going to have trouble if you interpret them that way. In this case, you picked on a feature that doesn't map to the situation under discussion to make an inflammatory suggestion. To spell it out, very, very clearly: the analogy only demonstrates that "who holds the thing" is important for assessing a threat from a particular perspective. The US holds "[Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, Snapchat, Twitter]" (which are all banned in China) and China holds TikTok (which is not banned in the US).
    - cwkoss 4y ago
      Its your analogy. If you think it is misleading, maybe you should have chosen a different one. Maybe check your internal biases on why you chose one which includes murderous intent.
      - tablespoon 4y ago
        > Its your analogy. If you think it is misleading, maybe you should have chosen a different one. It's not misleading, you just read too much into it. It's like quibbling with an analogy about "Alice and Bob" because your name isn't Alice or Bob. > Maybe check your internal biases on why you chose one which includes murderous intent. If someone is making an analogy about threats in general, it's silly to expect them to find a different a threat that's different but also exactly the same as the one being discussed. Analogies are used to highlight a particular aspect, and usually that means picking something that is different but very clearly highlights that particular aspect. Again, to spell it out, very, very clearly: a gun is an easily understood threat that almost everyone understands can be held by different people. It is a good object for illustrating how a threat changes based on who "holds" it.
  - NickC25 4y ago
    They want to be THE de-facto global hegemon. They've stated this time and time again. It's literally in their name (Middle Country). They don't want to kill us per-say, but they don't mind getting their hands dirty as long as the ends justify the means. In a battle over geopolitical, technological and militaristic superiority, killing one's enemy can happen.
  - reducesuffering 4y ago
    China is preparing to invade Taiwan in the coming decade and the US is committing to defend the 23 million people there from invasion. What part of that is propaganda?
    - pessimizer 4y ago
      > China is preparing to invade Taiwan in the coming decade Propaganda. You can tell because China has never said that it intends to invade Taiwan, and you have no inside information. Propaganda is what makes you think you have inside information. > the US is committing to defend the 23 million people there from invasion. That's not propaganda. As far as I can tell, it's as much a declaration of war as if Xi said, on video, that the would commit the Chinese military to defend Florida if there were any US effort to prevent DeSantis sending immigrants out of Florida on buses. China is not a submissive or weak country. I would honestly be surprised if they didn't start preparing to invade Taiwan (or as they would say, to send troops to Taiwan) ASAP after that interview. edit: We can have WWIII, but it will be the US, BJP, and various poor authoritarian Eastern European states vs. everyone else. It'll be like WWII, except we can be the Axis this time. Hitler was as surprised as anyone that we weren't in the Axis last time.
      - tablespoon 4y ago
        >> China is preparing to invade Taiwan in the coming decade...What part of that is propaganda? > Propaganda. You can tell because China has never said that it intends to invade Taiwan, and you have no inside information. Uh dude, they repeatedly make it clear the option to invade is on the table, and they've even withdrawn a previous promise not to send military occupation forces. And if you haven't been paying attention: a little more than a month ago they conducted live-fire exercises that looked a lot like practicing for a blockade of Taiwan. That's all out in the open. "Inside information" is not necessary. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/8/10/china-reaffirms-threat-of-military-force-to-take-taiwan https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/8/10/china-reaffirms-thr...
      - reducesuffering 4y ago
        Here's Alperovitch predicting it, who called the Russian invasion of Ukraine far in advance, while you were busy denying it would ever happen. https://www.politico.com/newsletters/digital-future-daily/2022/09/16/5-questions-for-dmitri-alperovitch-00057221 https://www.politico.com/newsletters/digital-future-daily/20... https://twitter.com/DAlperovitch/status/1570831201212203008 https://twitter.com/DAlperovitch/status/1570831201212203008 Here's you complaining about "horrifying virulence of Ukrainian nationalism", before the further invasion, definitely nothing about the soon to be start of Russian killing of Ukrainians. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27655651 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27655651 Here's you advocating "Even better, maybe we can push Russia into using some tiny nuke" on Ukrainians. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30794567 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30794567 That's all I have left to say to an obviously brainwashed war monger.
- the_af 4y ago
  > It's obvious that TikTok is qualitatively different from the perspective of the US and its allies. For those of us not in the US, it's not that different. We are always at the mercy of tech companies from a foreign power.
  - anon291 4y ago
    Then build your own. I mean it... good luck. You should absolutely advocate for your countries to limit their influence, and perhaps ban them from your country. Best of luck, but as an American, there's little I can do, unless you want me voting in your elections.
    - the_af 4y ago
      I'm sure you realize it's not that easy to "build your own" (for whatever tech, social network, internet, computers, etc). You don't have a head start and there are powerful forces working against you, both internal and external. Though it's not outside the possibilities of a nation, it's still very hard.
      - anon291 4y ago
        I completely understand having divested myself of facebook, twitter and google and the like. I think if more nation states engaged, they would have more power than individuals or groups. Look what happened to parler, gab, and truth.
  - tablespoon 4y ago
    > For those of us not in the US, it's not that different. We are always at the mercy of tech companies from a foreign power. That may be true, but the OP tweet (https://twitter.com/zachtratar/status/1571595169207812096 https://twitter.com/zachtratar/status/1571595169207812096) is referring to Americans specifically, and even for non-Americans, it's different for American-allied countries vs. ones with a more adversarial relationship. I don't think Americans would be concerned about TikTok if it were based in the UK or Italy, for instance.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- angryasian 4y ago
  Cambridge analytica / Facebook misinformation and usage within its borders would let you know all social media companies are a problem
- pessimizer 4y ago
  > That's a lazy thing to say. It's obvious that TikTok is qualitatively different from the perspective of the US and its allies. No, it's lazy to say that your assertion is obviously true rather than arguing for it. It's an easy thing to do when you're part of a government-led crowd.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
hulitu 4y ago
Microsoft, Google Adobe

mikewarot 4y ago

Twitter is also a national security threat for similar reasons. It's tempting to say that advertising supported internet services in general, devolve into them. The tracking technology used to help target advertising is a perfect tool for use by repressive regimes and organizations of any size or scale. Offline caching and sharing of content in a distributed fashion, where it isn't possible to get real-time location data, for example, is one possible route around this problem. Perhaps it's time to revisit the Memex concept, and make computers personal again.

kipchak 4y ago
I think this is it, the benefits of collecting from and sending to a person is valuable to advertisers as well as governments for similar reasons and applications, namely engineering consent. The trouble I see is that because of it's utility it seems unlikely to go away. But also, what is the difference between being made to believe something via for example via a persuasive essay and a TikTok video, if the intent and result of both is the same?

panny 4y ago

Yes, I only use American spyware social media and hardware. Like my Android phone with gboard keylogger sending everything I type to Google.

Aaronstotle 4y ago
The U.S. does it too is not a reason to dismiss the claims brought by these type of posts.
- henryfjordan 4y ago
  Yes it does. If someone complains about somebody else doing the exact same thing they are doing, then the issue isn't with the action but the "somebody else", aka racism.
  - macintux 4y ago
    Or the “somebody else”, geopolitical rival with unfriendly motives.
  - panny 4y ago
    Correct. My subtle point is authoritarian Americans only care about spyware data when it is out of their reach
- tzs 4y ago
  I'm not so sure. A ton of apps and sites and businesses in the US collect a ton of information and sell it to data brokers. Even many state governments give or sell plenty of personal data to data brokers, such as voter data and driver's license data. There is little to no regulation of the data broker business. Stopping Americans from using foreign owned apps over fear that foreign governments will get too much personal data seems pointless because those foreign governments can just buy data from American data brokers. You can't realistically expect to have personal data largely unprotected within your country and at the same time expect to keep that data within the country.
- operationGladio 4y ago

aftbit 4y ago

IMO the data privacy angle is not super important. There isn't that much that TikTok can collect from you anyway. IMO much more important is that the videos that are shown to you while you mindlessly scroll for that next dopamine hit are controlled by the CCP.

CharlesW 4y ago
> There isn't that much that TikTok can collect from you anyway. IMO much more important is that the videos that are shown to you while you mindlessly scroll for that next dopamine hit are controlled by the CCP. The way they're so successful at the latter is by being really good at the former. If you've used it, they've (at minimum) built a psychographic profile used for content and ad targeting.
- spiderice 4y ago
  The data is what makes them so good at keeping you on their platform, yes. But that data isn't inherently useful to the CCP. I think what GP is getting at, is that TikTok could easily start showing 80 million Americans whatever political agenda they deem appropriate. 1 week before an American election? 80 million Americans start being bombarded with "Why you should vote how the CCP wants you to vote" videos. That is a national security threat. Edit: Changed "20% of Americans" to "80 million Americans"
  - MiguelX413 4y ago
    This sounds just like online advertising to me.
    - adampk 4y ago
      The changes in algorithms directed by the CCP can be tracked like purchases of online ads through facebook/twitter? What kind of nonsense comparison is this good lord.
      - 4y ago

NotYourLawyer 4y ago

None of this is good, but… how much damage can they really do with this data?

defen 4y ago
Imagine an actually-good version of the Russian "influence operations" in the US (where they bought a couple hundred thousand worth of Facebook ads for the 2016 election to run shitty memes that didn't even sound like they were written by native speakers). If TikTok is this good at figuring out your general interests, it can probably figure out your political leanings as well. And tailor your content accordingly, in a way that furthers the interests of China. Whether that be by increasing/decreasing propensity to vote, increasing outrage, planting false narratives, etc.
- cwkoss 4y ago
  "What if China did what facebook did, but more competently" lol
  - defen 4y ago
    Well, it's undeniable that they are more competent than Facebook in this domain; the proof is in the pudding. So in your terms, you're trading an incompetent domestic influence operation for a competent foreign one. Hard to see how that's a good trade for the US.
    - cwkoss 4y ago
      Yeah. The main thing that bothers me is that the media isn't discussing any generalized data protection reforms as a response to this - the story is "data collection is only scary because it's china doing it."
      - defen 4y ago
        It's not just collection though. If China had access to everyone's credit card purchase info (they probably already do, but whatever), that's "data collection". But with TikTok they also have an obvious mechanism to directly affect behavior using the data they collected. That's not something you could easily do with just demographic or financial info alone.

mikece 4y ago

Google and Facebook would LOVE to have TikTok banned because TikTok is eating their lunch right now, attracting advertising money at a rate that is an existential threat to them both.

CharlesW 4y ago
The enemy of your enemy can still be your worst enemy.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  Are the Chinese your worst enemy? How did they hurt you?
  - gremlinsinc 4y ago
    They've hurt many in Ukraine by siding with Russia. I for one support Ukraine and in that way they could be seen as an enemy. Also anything resembling fascism in the least bit should be demonized, CCP/Russia are ruled by fascists as are the majority of their allies (read: dictatorships/military ruled countries aka non democratic/republic/parliamentarian countries). If there's a world war 3, you better believe the powers will be USA, Western EU, Japan, Australia, Taiwan, NZ, (maybe India), (maybe israel), against China, Russia, Venezuela, Cuba, maybe Brazil, et al. I don't say this because they're communist, etc. I like aspects of communism, I say this because they rule like the book 1984 is a guidebook, not a work of fiction.
    - bsnnkv 4y ago
      Just curious, which side of the divide do you think predominantly Muslim countries would fall on in this WW3 scenario? Asking to satisfy my constant hunger for alternate-history/possible-future worldbuilding.
  - CharlesW 4y ago
    “Worst enemy” in this case refers to TikTok, not “the Chinese”.

ecommerceguy 4y ago

Isn't TikTok effectively ran by Oracle in USA? https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/17/technology/tiktok-oracle-servers.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/17/technology/tiktok-oracle-... How did Oracle get its start, remind me? https://gizmodo.com/larry-ellisons-oracle-started-as-a-cia-project-1636592238 https://gizmodo.com/larry-ellisons-oracle-started-as-a-cia-p...

ecommerceguy 4y ago
Looks like some spooks didn't like my comment, typical HN.

ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago

As we see TikTok eating everyone's lunch we will see a last gasp flurry of PR firms from Facebook, Google trying to spam these articles.

alexfromapex 4y ago
Was something about eating lunch in the post thread? Seems strange there’s another comment with the same wording
- xboxnolifes 4y ago
  It's a common phrase.
- hutzlibu 4y ago
  It is a metaphor for TikTok gets more marketshare from FB and co.

guilhas 4y ago

TikTok is the best app of its type, and for the first time USA being beaten by a foreign country to develop an international successfully app. Also one of the first times China developers catered for an outside audience. Obviously this has huge implications and the USA is quite offended When China said Gmail/Facebook/Instagram... was a security threat, USA called it censorship, so now they're in a pickle And it is obviously a security threat, but USA does not care as long they're the ones spying the world, and their own population Also USA is much more prone to foreign interference, like their drones using cellular data in foreign countries to kill people, elections, blackmail, etc... So as an European I would say.. fight fight fight! No one wants to become China but USA/UK/EU/AUS... are slowly becoming more authoritarian anyway. Maybe some competition will make them wake up and remember what they used to stand for

asiandeveloper 4y ago

2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago

A lot of commenters either haven't researched the topic or lack imagination. What can China do with the data and attention of 80 million Americans? How about practically anything they want. They haven't used it yet.

SilverBirch 4y ago
This isn't about research, it's about preconception. You imagine that you've got 80 million Americans watching cute dog videos and you can find some algorithm to feed them communist propaganda or whatever. In reality what happens is you start fucking with their cute dog videos and they all immediately turn off. What made Facebook and Youtube dangerous is they enabled a pre-existing trend to just slowly trudge further into the extreme and insane. Yes, there are highways to hysteria. But they're embedded in humans and reinforced by algorithms, you can't just pick the way you want to go. The far right on facebook isn't really distinguishable from talk radio, because it's reinforcing not creating. Now, you could say that's bad in itself, but at the end of the day, extremism is often far ight Americans using their free speech to talk to other far right Americans. Right up until they storm the capitol.
the_af 4y ago
Do note this situation is maybe new for Americans, i.e. people from the US. For many of us in the rest of the world, it turns out this scenario of "foreign power in control of the tech and data we use daily" has been a reality for ages. It's just that the foreign power wasn't China.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
  It's not the foreign part that bothers me- it's the adversary part.
  - the_af 4y ago
    Would it surprise you that people in some countries in the world (I don't mean China or Russia, mind you) would consider the US as adversarial at times?

cwkoss 4y ago

Can anyone point to something that TikTok is doing that FB/Google/Twitter aren't already doing, that we should be concerned about? All the anti-tiktok takes seem to be rooted in sinophobia and nationalist sour grapes. I don't like megacorps slurping my info up, but these conversations seem to have huge blinders around what has become standard practice for American web companies - especially when handling the data of foreign users.

cwkoss 4y ago
To answer my own question - the in-browser keylogger story was concerning to me. If it was actually transmitting the within-browser keystroke data back to tiktok servers, that would be quite concerning... except that I already avoid their browser like the plague because it sucks, so I just retype URLs into my default browser in the rare cases I want to follow a link in someone's profile.
- angryasian 4y ago
  This is any in app browser that has access to it. Its not specific to tiktok. Nothing against you but this disinformation towards tiktok is laugable
CharlesW 4y ago
> Can anyone point to something that TikTok is doing that FB/Google/Twitter aren't already doing, that we should be concerned about? If you're okay with FB/Google/Twitter sharing all of the data they have on you with the CCP, there's not a big difference.
- sniperjzp 4y ago
  Not trying to defend TikTok, FB/Google/Twitter are not sharing data with CCP, but they are sharing data with CIA owned by Uncle Sam.
  - dvngnt_ 4y ago
    that's worse imo

aaron695 4y ago

prh8 4y ago

Reading through that thread and then a bit more of his twitter, just seems like yet another wannabe Dan Price style philosopher, acting like the enlightened person residing at the center of every debate. None of his arguments are particularly concerning or unique considering how much every other company lobbies and evades governments.

ztratar 4y ago
Hello, OP here. I do not aspire to be Dan Price. That is all.

Julesman 4y ago

Ok, so how about the Terms of Service are just honest and we see if everyone still agrees? Personally, I'm happy to trade my psych profile for that sweet sweet content.

gigatexal 4y ago

It’s not, yet. Until there’s actual proof of the CCP pushing propaganda onto western users we can talk but otherwise it’s just incumbents upset they can’t compete.

andrewinardeer 4y ago

I am convinced that TikTok is addictive to a subset of the population by using the same methologies that video gambling machines employ - colour, movement, dopamine fluctuations and ease of use. I also think that the use of infinite scrolling is unethical. Facebook and Twitter drive user engagement differently as they have discovered that illicting negative emotions makes their offerings more "sticky". Then there is their algorithm. It's good. Extraordinarily good. One day they will tweak it to sow narratives that the US or western governments find offensive and I'm guessing this is the real reason for it being a "national security threat".

endisneigh 4y ago

Maybe all countries should block all foreign apps. Back to the isolationist ways George Washington wanted. Let’s skip all of the hand wringing and get to the conclusion here.

operationGladio 4y ago

[flagged]

skilled 4y ago

'Are There TikTok Employees... Who Are Members Of The Chinese Communist Party?' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meWM8d4Uz7Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meWM8d4Uz7Q -- It's a fascinating video in the sense that you can clearly tell that this COO is hiding information. I mean it's so blatant I am surprised the platform is still up and running, anywhere in the West to be honest.

daniel-cussen 4y ago

ars 4y ago
Were you hacked? Your posts in the last 4 hours are pages of gibberish.
- daniel-cussen 4y ago
  Par for the course. Hey did you actually scan from top to bottom, left to right? Might have seen something interesting. Dude in particular the cockroach comment on http://fgemm.com http://fgemm.com came out so...so very fine, I'm so happy with it. Ended up pulling the stunt, not pictures of me but pictures of a deleted memory from my metamorphosis, I hadn't seen that magic card or remembered its name in 22 years. And then it was lobotomized, and then I flashed on it in the moment. Quite pleased with that.
  - daniel-cussen 4y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32849922#32903619 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32849922#32903619 So you see it. I mean since you read all the gibberish, to know it was all gibberish.

fabiofzero 4y ago

So is Facebook, yet here we are

Flatcircle 4y ago

The whatabout-ism regarding American companies doing similar stuff can be explained by that great quote, “in the United States the journalists are so powerful they can throw politicians in jail, in China the politicians are so powerful they can throw journalists in jail.” The CCP is getting this data, and they have significantly more carte blanche to do nefarious things than US government officials do.

tomjen3 4y ago
If China tells my government to throw me in jail, they will be laughed at in the press. If the us tells my government that I am a terrorist, I am getting my door kicked in at 3 a.m. Unless you travel there, China is a pointless waste human potential.
pphysch 4y ago
Famous Chinese dissident journalist Julian Assange.
- jahewson 4y ago
  Which US jail is he in?
  - pphysch 4y ago
    TBD until the US extradites him, assuming he doesn't die in solitary confinement in a UK prison on behalf of the US government.
Ekaros 4y ago
At least China doesn't seem to be out-right mass murdering people around the globe with explicit approval and support of its population. Or at leas the population being complicit by not taking the justice in their hands when they are able to.

kelseyfrog 4y ago

This is actually a good thing. Let me explain. If there is a market for domestic video-based social networks, then it should be low-hanging fruit for a US-based provider to offer a competitive product. If there isn't then the market has spoken, and consumers have voted with their attention. There aren't any other interpretations that don't deprive the invisible hand of the market from delivering providence to consumers. These are rational actors making voluntary choices. Foreign policy should simply stay out as any intervention is necessarily a market distortion. If market actors are consuming it, it's good definitionally.

pessimizer 4y ago
> it should be low-hanging fruit for a US-based provider to offer a competitive product. It was called Vine, and we let our monopolists buy it and shut it down.
- emptyparadise 4y ago
  Imagine being the Twitter executive that signed Vine's death warrant.
  - kelseyfrog 4y ago
    I am. It feels really good - like getting a big bonus.
kderbyma 4y ago
You are simplifying a bit. You expect the abilities for a small team to beat out a chinese-government backed behemoth

angryasian 4y ago

As_You_Wish 4y ago

Wow. This entire thread seems to be written by Chinese agents, looking to, on the surface, minimize the threat against the West by China. Clearly TikTok can be a national security issue. All these comments do not address this at all, and seem to do their best to ridicule a valid concern. Obviously the issue is that the data from TikTok is required to go to the Chinese government as do the algorithms. China has clearly benefitted from the West, by all the money and IP that we have given it, by the products we purchase. Now, the Chinese are biting the hand that feeds it, by becoming an ally of Russia. By actively looking to undermine the West. To deny this is to deny reality,unless you are saying all the reports on how the Chinese are doing this is "fake news." . https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/russia-and-china-unveil-a-pact-against-america-and-the-west https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/russia-and-chin... Robert Daly, the director of the Kissinger Institute on China and the United States, at the Wilson Center, in Washington, said “This is a pledge to stand shoulder to shoulder against America and the West, ideologically as well as militarily,” . The difference between TikTok and all Chinese apps is that the government essentially owns all companies, whereas in the West, this is not the case. Western governments can only access data from private companies if they have a search warrant. Furthermore, I believe China will be seeking to invade Taiwan soon, and take over all their chip-making technology. Their population and economy is crashing, so now is the time to invade Taiwan. To just dismiss these concerns about TikTok out of hand, without any discussion, is clearly wrong. This entire thread seems like it was written by the CCP sleeper HN users. . Also, as noted by trident5000 below, China has access to all USA users of TikTok., but the USA or anyone else doesn't have access to Chinese users of TikTok. That's just one more issue to add on, and I'm sure there are others, too.

matsemann 4y ago
No, we're just non-US people not seeing the difference between US agencies forcing FB/Google etc to hand over our data, or China forcing TikTok. Or even US people believing their data can be misused more by their own government, than a country they will never visit. Also, my data on Fb/Google is much, much more personal than whatever TikTok has on me.
- 4y ago

duxup 4y ago

If another nation bans outside social media networks ... I see no reason that we shouldn't do the same to those that operate from that nation. The amount of data available is just too much to hand over in a one way relationship.

AlexandrB 4y ago
Wait, but it would be ok for a Chinese company to gather data on US citizens as long as our companies could gather data on Chinese citizens? What about countries that are not China or the US? Those are all one way relationships when it comes to Facebook/Twitter. As a Canadian, a lot of the arguments about why TikTok is a national security threat come off as extremely US-centric. If applied consistently these ideas result in each country having its own social networking companies.
- duxup 4y ago
  That seems like something you consider after you get past what i described. As for other nations I strongly believe there is a real difference between more free and very much non free nations. But to your original point I'd have no problem with raising the issue of if apps should even be able to gather all this data... but again that's after the issue I raised is resolved.

Overtonwindow 4y ago

This is hilarious. Social media is a threat to national security. The Internet is a threat to national security. People have a desire to be seen and see others. So long as we have that desire, and the Internet makes it possible, there will always be a TikTok. The only reason they’re really saying it’s a national security threat is because of how big it’s gotten. What about Facebook? I would say Facebook represents a far greater threat to national security than TikTok.

ztratar 4y ago

Hi, uh.... OP here (from twitter). Didn't realize someone posted this! And honestly I was expecting like 20 likes total. Anyways, want to clarify a couple things: - All of the information presented is accurate. And the questions are fair. - I am not defending FB or other tech companies broadly. I'm pro data locality. - China is an authoritarian mass surveillance state that forcibly squashes detractors and limits individual freedoms. The US has made many mistakes, but it still doesn't come comparably close to this. - Please for the love of God don't compare me to Dan Price. Please? lmao.

subroutine 4y ago
IMO if TikTok can operate in the US, then Twitter, FB, etc. should be allowed to operate in China. It's the lopsided (potential) to influence the other market/populace that doesn't sit well with me.
- pphysch 4y ago
  Many Western companies do operate in China, but may have to significantly adapt their processes to comply with local regulation. Simple example: visual media has to be edited to remove excessive depictions of death. Which specific US regulations is TikTok currently violating, and where is the hard evidence to support that?
  - JSGdev 4y ago
    No, china requires specific strictures so such companies don't allow free speech that contradicts the party's communist doctrine or social aims. America is a free country so we don't require that. Problem is, this gives china influence over America but not the other way around. This is a bad thing both because it's asymmetrical and because America at least tries for freedom while china is a force against. Stop making these nonsense "both sides" arguments pretending china and America are equivalent.
    - pphysch 4y ago
      They obviously do not have "equivalent" regulations. Can you please answer the question instead of engaging in ideological appeals?

subroutine 4y ago

The thing that bothers me the most about TikTok is how it's allowed to operate with little restriction in the US but US-based companies do not have nearly the same level of freedom to operate in China e.g. fb is banned in CPP).

malshe 4y ago
Absolutely. This is so damn puzzling to me.
pessimizer 4y ago
US-based companies can operate in China if they respect Chinese laws. TikTok isn't given any special privilege to operate outside of US law.
- sarchertech 4y ago
  That is essentially a meaningless statement. If there was a Chinese law that stated foreign companies had to turn over 90% ownership to the government, your statement would still hold true.
  - flyaway123 4y ago
    "Your house, my rules." Is this what you are suggesting?
    - subroutine 4y ago
      If someone's house rules are so strict that nobody wants to hold game night there, yet this person loves playing in other people's (far less restrictive) homes, how long before we stop inviting them?
      - perlwle 4y ago
        You don't invite friends to your home just because his/her mom has strict rule in their home?

Barrin92 4y ago

Having worked in the Chinese tech sector I have honestly no idea where this cartoonish idea comes from that the Chinese government magically runs every tech company in the country. I seriously question if anyone who says that has any personal experience with the country at all. This is some strange techno-orientalism where Asian governments apparently have superpowers nobody else possesses. Does anyone here think the American government is physically able to own or run every technology company or even one? The Chinese tech sector, including TikTok (which is a distinct western entity anyway, the Chinese app is called Doujin) faced comparatively little oversight, and regulators usually aren't exactly competent. Chinese entrepreneurs navigate laws and regulations just like they do everywhere else, with the added difficulty that they tend to be even more confusing than anywhere else. There is no mastermind sitting in a dark room smoking a cigar controlling entire sectors of the economy, because only the tech companies actually know how to operate themselves, same as anywhere else. The government in China considers its own tech sector to be a competing power center, not some extended arm of the party, which is why they brought the hammer down on significant parts of the industry recently, wiping out ungodly sums of money in the process. You don't do that to an asset. Chinese tech tends to attempt to skirt the rules (usually for its own benefit) whenever possible.

nova22033 4y ago
Having worked in the Chinese tech sector I have honestly no idea where this cartoonish idea comes from that the Chinese government magically runs every tech company in the country. I seriously question if anyone who says that has any personal experience with the country at all. I just ate...ergo, there's no world hunger...
- pphysch 4y ago
  I didn't just eat, therefore there's a teapot orbiting around Mars. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot
ztratar 4y ago
The CCP literally sits on the board of ByteDance. ByteDance CEO Zhang Yiming has stated on the record that he will ensure his products serve to promote the CCP’s propaganda agenda. Companies that refuse, such as Alibaba, are stripped of their power and their leader (e.g. Jack Ma) literally disappear for months. Read more about what happened with WeChat as well: https://chinamediaproject.org/2018/04/11/tech-shame-in-the-new-era/ https://chinamediaproject.org/2018/04/11/tech-shame-in-the-n...

nova22033 4y ago

Today: The CCP now has your data What data does the CCP have? The people I follow? The kind of videos I like to watch. My favorites? Videos I "liked"? How exactly is this a national security threat? I'm all for pushing back against the CCP but it's not clear what "data" they have

kfrzcode 4y ago
All of your related data, on any app you've used on your phone. Read the ToS.
- pphysch 4y ago
  TikTok has a rootkit now? What did I miss?
octoberfranklin 4y ago
It's location data, but none of the US Surveillance State wants to admit this. They're upset about China having this data, but don't want to admit that they have it themselves. This is why all the public discourse on this topic is so utterly incoherent.
ksubedi 4y ago
Let me be the devil's advocate here, they basically have a map of your interests and likes and things that grab your attention. I am not saying China is going to do this, but if a malicious actor wanted to abuse this data, they could potentially craft curated videos that feed your biases using your interests and potentially make you believe any propaganda they wanted. Now imagine a machine learning model doing this instead of humans, it could infer so much more information about how you think and how your brain works based off of that data and do even more harm. Ever thought about buying something and an ad for that casually pops up in your feed? It is going to be similar to that, but instead of ads for a product it could be some misinformation that could cause paranoia (just an example).
- pessimizer 4y ago

beepbooptheory 4y ago

Can't think of a bigger dissonance between most people and a typical HN commenter than this. Its a good intersection of infosec and geopolitical nerdom in general, but mostly it allows programmers to think that their expertise has bearing on something so seemingly serious and huge, when their work doesnt usually give them that opportunity. So I understand the fervor that way only because it just can't all be the typical superiority dynamic presented here a lot with layman's consumption habits, its just so extra with anything about software and China. I hope you guys get a fight worth your time one day.

octoberfranklin 4y ago

People would take this whole situation more seriously if it weren't always discussed in such evasive terms as "US Data". What data, exactly? The truth is that every cell phone is a tracking device, and the US government loves this. The only thing they're upset about is anybody other than themselves having all this tracking device data. So when a China-based company gets a hold of it, they're upset, but they can't really articulate why they're upset, because it would amount to an admission of how much they love their precious surveillance economy/state. Instead they just sort of stammer and sputter about "US Data". I feel a certain Schadenfreude about this situation.

fmajid 4y ago

At a simpler level, it's a travesty that TikTok is allowed to operate in the US when Google, Facebook, Twitter et al are banned in China. Trump had the right idea in seeking to ban it, until he reverted to type and turned that into a shake-down instead.

karmasimida 4y ago

Titkok is a threat because it threatens US internet monopoly which is 100% true. How it would be dealt with is a different story. I see different Admin would take different approaches, the wait won't be too long.

version_five 4y ago

Worth mentioning, ByteDance now also has an office productivity suite: https://www.larksuite.com/ https://www.larksuite.com/ I'd be interested to know what kind of reception this has had in the US, given the reputation of tiktok, regardless of however it actually is for privacy and security

guelo 4y ago

I agree it's a huge security threat but framing it as data privacy issue is a distraction from the real concern which is top-down censorship. People think of TikTok as pure algorithm but that's wrong, the algorithm is manipulated directly by the CCP. They've censored BlackLivesMatter[1], blocked a teenager discussing China’s genocide in Xinjiang[2], blocked a video of Tank Man[3], Hong Kong protests and Houston Rockets basketball team[4]. TikTok guidelines censor Tiananmen Square, Tibetan independence, and the Falun Gong[5]. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/02/tiktok-blacklivesmatter-cens https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/02/tiktok-blacklivesmatter-cens... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/nov/28/tiktok-sa https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/nov/28/tiktok-sa... [3] https://qz.com/1788836/targeting-tiktoks-privacy-alone-misse https://qz.com/1788836/targeting-tiktoks-privacy-alone-misse... [4] https://stratechery.com/2019/the-china-cultural-clash/ https://stratechery.com/2019/the-china-cultural-clash/ [5] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/sep/25/revealed- https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/sep/25/revealed-...

0xbadcafebee 4y ago

> 80 million Americans now spend 20% of their free time scrolling through an algorithmic content experience owned by the Chinese Government. As opposed to a billion people spending 20% of their free time scrolling through a Facebook feed (back when Facebook was a thing). Honestly, the more these issues get raised, the more it's clear that there's really no difference between a government and a corporation except one spends money and the other makes money. We have been slowly moving into a post-Democratic version of globalism for decades. Consumerism is not a bulwark against oppression, and we've mostly only had the illusion of choice or control in our political process, with oligarchs deciding everything rather than the "δῆμος". Totalitarian empires have been the dominant model of human civilization for the past couple thousand years; there's no reason to believe it wouldn't continue. China will be leading the new global status quo, which will combine heightened entertainment with heightened totalitarianism. Orwell was a prophet, a century early.

dukeofdoom 4y ago

FBI, and beurocrats want to control the discourse, and pick favorites which candidates Americans get. It's harder to do that when platform is foreign. Still perhaps the best thing for Americans to have an alternative main stream source of information. Platforms should not get to do view point discrimination and censorship. Pendulums swing, and public opinion matters..the law will follow.

adampk 4y ago

I am glad hackernews has not fallen to the nihilism that most other platforms have when clearly attacked by foreign agents or special interests astroturfing and using whataboutism. Most other communities just go along with nihilism about democracy because it is in vogue to pretend we are another authoritarian regime. Nice to see the nerds haven't given up :)

pessimizer 4y ago
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/09/19/pentagon-orders-review-psyops-after-takedown-fake-social-accounts/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/09/19/pentagon-... https://www.theverge.com/2022/9/19/23360688/pentagon-review-military-influence-operations-social-media https://www.theverge.com/2022/9/19/23360688/pentagon-review-...

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

thiagoharry 4y ago

dang 4y ago
It's against the site guidelines to use HN for political/ideological/nationalistic battle, and your account seems to be doing a lot of that. We ban accounts that use HN primarily for this—regardless of what they're battling for or against—so if you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and fix this, we'd appreciate it. You've also posted good comments, so I don't want to ban you. Note this guideline too though: "Don't be snarky."

subjectsigma 4y ago

I'm so fucking tired of coming into these threads and seeing people false flag, shill, whine, moan, complain, strawman... We need to start by banning these god awful threads. Then we move onto TikTok, then onto gutting Meta and Twitter.

czscout 4y ago

I don't really understand how this is any different from any other social media platform besides the entity your data is being sent back to. Is the Chinese government really any worse than Google, Meta, etc.? I think if you really feel passionately about this specific instance, then you should also feel the same passion about any other social media platform that collects your data and does with it what they please.

jimkleiber 4y ago
In theory, as a US citizen, I have some control over the government oversight of Google, Facebook, etc., probably much less over TikTok. So while I can feel angry and frustrated with what the Googles and FBs do, I also believe I have a little more power, whereas I feel a bit more powerless over TikTok.
DoItToMe81 4y ago
It isn't. It's just fearmongering and deflection of a serious issue with datamining companies having free reign to act as unethically as they so desire onto the scary foreigners.

frozencell 4y ago

Same emperor, new clothes. It's the same at home in the US, not with CCP but CIA & Cie so.

sys_64738 4y ago

Tik Tok is a garbage dumpster filled with junk. It’s no more a threat than an empty can of tomato soup. It is hated because it can’t be bought and controlled by Facebook as it’s a China company.

togs 4y ago

Everyone is talking past each other.

ineedasername 4y ago

And the very limited lip service paid to hosting/keeping US data in the US was basically a nice massive government-mediated sale for Oracle

helen___keller 4y ago

The biggest risk is chinas potential future influence over the content being pushed on TikTok. This is also where the law is least prepared for regulation. On the privacy side, If lawmakers really cared about TikTok data ending up in China, I’m sure congress could pass a powerful privacy law modeled off the CCPA or GDPR. This hasn’t happened so I’m assuming it isn’t considered a very serious national security threat. On the content side, I don’t think the world has a very good model for regulating algorithmic content streams. The biggest risk is also the hardest problem to tackle

seer-zig 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

hayst4ck 4y ago

A lot of the sentiment in this thread makes it clear that Social Media (Google/FB/TikTok) is a tool capable of exerting power, a weapon. The great firewall of china prevents American "weapons" from running rampant on Chinese citizens. Meanwhile America has no digital border, so Chinese weapons are able to run rampant on us. If you ask just about anyone "Is it ok for China to store bombs in our cities, while they prevent us from putting bombs in theirs" the answer is obvious. Despite this America has chosen a "one internet" strategy to prevent the balkanization of the internet and generally has an anti-protectionism strategy. The far more interesting question is "despite the obvious national security risk posed by TikTok, why might it be preferable to not block it?"

moralestapia 4y ago
* yawns * I remember when the CCP was evil for bringing up this firewall and how repressed all their citizens were and how we should be happy because we live in a free and open society blah blah blah And now firewalls are good, because apparently now apps are "national security threats", interesting. Weathervane morals at its finest.
kelseyfrog 4y ago
These bombs are merely ideas. We should be so lucky to expand access to a diverse set of products in the marketplace of ideas.
- hayst4ck 4y ago
  These aren't just ideas, these are adversarial fingers on the scale, particularly in a country that has a nearly 50/50 schism. Then there are the intelligence possibilities. There is potentially geolocation, timing information, visual information, identifier based information, text scraping based information, artifact information, and social graph information. When and where a person sleeps, commutes, works, and vacations. Who shows up in my pictures and contact list, potentially how close those relationships are. What types of devices might show up on my network. It's possible to potentially connect a TikTok account to other public accounts based on links, shares, text, or other content. I don't now what an apps ability to scrape through photos on a phone in the background is, but even a hash on every photo could be used to identify anyone who has a non public photo on their phone. Direct messages are their own treasure trove. You might be able to fingerprint the device or collect version information which might make landing a vulnerability on a particular target easier. If I gave you the TikTok database and a function that will control what shows up in peoples feeds, I don't think it's very hard to imagine ways to create civil unrest, promote a friendly politician, identify military members, identify politicians, identify politicians children, diminish trust in public institutions, increase hopelesness/depression, drive up hatred to outgroups (people of a different gender race or sexual preference), or drive up hatred towards police. We are living in an age where the ideas of objective truth and intellectual authority are gone. Nuance is dead. Everyone can choose their own reality. Presenting emotionally satisfying, yet ultimately destructive realities to people seems like the type of thing that can become quite problematic. As a side note, from an ideological point of view, I am against banning TikTok, but it's hard not to see that it is the pragmatically correct thing to do. Certainly if China were to invade Taiwan, I think pragmatic concerns would exceed ideological ones.

RhysU 4y ago

I keep thinking the endgame is a Lucius Fox/Dark Night-style, on-demand surveillance network. No basis in fact.

dafoex 4y ago

Why are they worried? If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear! Or does that only work when the Americans are spying on everything we say and do both online and off? This is terrible, but its also karma.

foverzar 4y ago

I remember some years ago I saw the same rhetoric on Meta's (Facebook) services in Russia. Meta ended getting restricted in Russia and branded as "extremist" due to some ugly story with moderation rules and hate-speach. All this is generally considered as a backwards decision and is criticized both in Russia and in the West. I wonder when will we see the same for TikTok in the US and how would it be implemented. AFAIK, Trump had threatened to ban TikTok during his last presidency, but how would it be implemented practically? It seems that previously the US had only restricted internet by undelegating/seizing domains, but that would be scandalous for an international corporation. Nationalization maybe? It seems that had already "partly" happened with that Trump incident - TikTok had to restructure a bit and let a few American investors in, strings attached. In any case, this situation is a boon for America's competitors, as it is a yet another demonstration of America's integrity failing.

jasonm23 4y ago

Facebook is an existential threat. Can we turn the hyperbole up to 11?

kderbyma 4y ago

I have always had a bad guy feeling about tiktok. It never seemed right to me how it grew so quickly. It screams of privacy concerns even beyond what Facebook was doing and came after years of public scrutiny and general contempt for those kinds of privacy nightmares..... everything about it says to me it was supported by military/government programs from early on and it was obvious to me that anything that powerful came with strings.... I saw Facebook turn into a monster....and it still doesn't have the data access that tiktok gets.....

webinvest 4y ago
Tiktok grew via advertising extensively on YouTube. It was the website with most of its mainstream target demographic and content similarities.

t0bia_s 4y ago

Why not to explain to public why privacy matters and what real consequences are if you don't care and constantly doomscrooling? I'm against any types of censorship. If you value freedom, you cannot implement practises of enemy. To be clear... I'm not social media user, because of many ethical and technical issues that they have. And I know about them because I'm able to find that information or practically reproduce. With regulations, I wouldn't.