14 ms·

I love the idea of an EV, but I hate how unfriendly they are towards self-repair and I don't want my car connected to the internet. Also an EV has more battery

I love the idea of an EV, but I hate how unfriendly they are towards self-repair and I don't want my car connected to the internet. Also an EV has more battery capacity than my house so it'd be pretty hard to charge a car in the winter when I can barely keep my house batteries running my house.

plazmatic 4y ago
ezfe 4y ago
Internet connection ≠ EV. It just so happens many correlate, but many do not.
- jen20 4y ago
  Is there an EV available which is not internet connected?
  - benhurmarcel 4y ago
    Basically all of them except Tesla
    - aembleton 4y ago
      The Mercedes are connected too. The MGs aren't for now.
      - jen20 4y ago
        Thanks for that pointer - I didn't realise that cars were being made under the MG name again, let along fairly reasonably priced electric SUVs!
  - ezfe 4y ago
    Something like a VW ID.4 is just as connected as any other VW.
DennisP 4y ago
If you don't mind a super-aerodynamic lightweight three-wheeler, Aptera has a strong commitment to right-to-repair. They're making parts and manuals available to anyone. https://aptera.us/right-to-repair-commitment-feat-rich-rebuilds/ https://aptera.us/right-to-repair-commitment-feat-rich-rebui... https://cleantechnica.com/2021/11/19/a-recent-aptera-video-gives-us-a-peek-at-its-repairable-guts/ https://cleantechnica.com/2021/11/19/a-recent-aptera-video-g... They also get significantly more miles/kWh than most electrics, so the charging problem's easier.
- kashkhan 4y ago
  biggest problem is finding good battery packs at scale. Maybe one day we can have a co-op gigafactory.
- sandworm101 4y ago
  >> If you don't mind a super-aerodynamic lightweight three-wheeler In other words: not a car. No crash protection. Three-wheeled "cars" are simply an excuse to avoid various safety rules. They are essentially enclosed motorcycles, to the extent that in some jurisdictions you may need a motorcycle license/helmet to drive them.
  - s0rce 4y ago
    Maybe ok if everyone drove them, I'd seriously consider it for my sunny commute in Nevada and parking all day outside in the desert. Unfortunately, everyone else is driving a massively oversized pickup truck and I'd prefer not to be obliterated.
    - DennisP 4y ago
      Yeah that's the only reason I haven't put in a preorder. They're making it as safe as they can but there's only so much you can do. Back in the 90s I drove a '73 Beetle and a '74 Pinto, and I'm sure it's safer than those. Maybe Aptera's customers will be some of today's 20-somethings.
- hotpotamus 4y ago
hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
> Also an EV has more battery capacity than my house so it'd be pretty hard to charge a car in the winter when I can barely keep my house batteries running my house. Not sure if you're just talking about something specific to your house, or making a broader point. Once EVs are widespread, they can add a huge amount of storage capacity to the grid. Not hard to imagine utility and government incentives that encourage car owners to make some of their battery power available at peak load times.
- sandworm101 4y ago
  I'm not convinced. The "smart grid" has been discussed for over a decade. Would anyone here allow their Tesla to discharge when parked, allow it to feed power back into the grid? What if those extra charge/discharge cycles decreases the battery's life expectancy? The small bonus payments (pennies) just won't cut it imho. People will charge their cars and keep them charged.
  - hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
    > Would anyone here allow their Tesla to discharge when parked, allow it to feed power back into the grid? I absolutely would, in fact it's a major reason I am not getting a Tesla and am instead opting for an EV that emphasizes its vehicle-to-home power capabilities (e.g. F150 Lightning and Lucid). I also know a ton of other Texans who feel the same way I do given our (deserved) lack of faith in our electric grid. Also, saying it's "feeding power back to the grid", while technically accurate, isn't necessarily how I think this will be messaged. Instead, I think it will be messaged that, in times of high demand, your house alone will be powered by your car battery and taken "off grid". Right now, some of the biggest issues with renewables is just timing during the day (e.g. late afternoon/early evening power needs peak right as the sun is setting). Telling people they'll get a substantially discounted rate if they allow their house to be "disconnected" from the grid for a few hours (because they have a car battery that can power their house) would be a big incentive to a lot of people.
    - sandworm101 4y ago
RichardCNormos 4y ago
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  A lot of what-ifs. I suppose you go solar coupled with a whole-house battery storage system. Probably win a court case (and sizable payout) against a corporation cancelling your ability to drive your own car.
  - RichardCNormos 4y ago
    > Probably win a court case (and sizable payout) against a corporation cancelling your ability to drive your own car. They would cancel your license to the software that operates the car. John Deere already does this with their industrial-scale farming tractors.
- tapoxi 4y ago
  I'm really not sure how my Volkswagen will not let me drive because of something I said on Twitter. Electric utilities are also regulated monopolies, they can't just cut my power without running afoul of a ton of laws. Even in such a ridiculous scenario, you can make your own electricity. You can't make your own gasoline.
  - ThunderSizzle 4y ago
    I can get gas from multiple gas stations with cash without proving my identity. I can't do that with electricity right now.
    - NegativeLatency 4y ago
      Solar?
    - tapoxi 4y ago
      There are plenty of free charging stations out there. The closest one to my house is 5 minutes away at a grocery store.
threatofrain 4y ago
I would argue that whether you're driving a gas-powered BMW or an electric BMW, all car companies are motivated to add internet-driven features and metrics to future cars. Your car could be solar-powered and this would still be the case. The only way dis-incentives could confidently outweigh incentives would be if governments use laws & enforcement to destroy the value of tracking users.
ant6n 4y ago
I love the idea of an EV, but ultimately it’s just extending a pretty unsustainable car culture involving the allocation of half of urban space to individuals moving around 1~2 tons of metal in order to do trips that would be much shorter with better designed cities, while letting walking, cycling and transit languish.
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  Agree. If EV, I prefer electric bikes/scooters. Especially that crazy swappable battery thing they have in Singapore (https://news.yahoo.com/trial-battery-swap-charge-stations-electronic-motorcycles-begin-soon-122250610.html https://news.yahoo.com/trial-battery-swap-charge-stations-el...). To be sure, in the U.S., you would probably still need a car in winter, rain... To that end, the wife and I are down to a single car we share between the two of us. (Seems like such a radical thing to do in the U.S. for some reason.)
  - nradov 4y ago
    I don't know if it's radical, but having a single car stops being practical as soon as your two kids have to be at different sports tournaments 100 miles apart. Sure in theory you can rent another car when you need it, but in practice it's such a hassle that unless you're short of parking spaces it's easier to own 2 cars.
sandworm101 4y ago
I just completed a ~1600km drive back from visiting family. Half way through the outbound trip, in the middle of the mountains, I had to make a 300km detour due to a massive accident (two semi trucks head-on closed a mountain highway for more than a day). The detour was through a valley with no cellphone coverage for 150+km. At a rest stop I met a tesla driver in a panic. Without internet he was unable to figure out whether he should continue, turn around, or wait out the accident. That was the one and only electric vehicle I saw that day. There are some parts of this planet where it it very hard to envision mass EV adoption. (Here is a link if anyone wants to confirm my story, but be warned. You cannot unread this. It was a horrible accident.) https://www.aldergrovestar.com/news/fatal-semi-truck-collision-closes-highway-1-near-golden-for-over-24-hours/ https://www.aldergrovestar.com/news/fatal-semi-truck-collisi...
- pjc50 4y ago
  > There are some parts of this planet where it it very hard to envision mass EV adoption. Perhaps, but how are they going to adapt to significantly lower CO2 emission? Through drastically increased prices? Or just accept the 4C warming and hope the fires are after your lifetime?
- ThunderSizzle 4y ago
  Your facts are inconvenient and will probably just be dismissed sadly. EVs need to win by being better without more risk, not by trying to ban people currently using ICEs.
  - sandworm101 4y ago
    More inconvenient facts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Fort_McMurray_wildfire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Fort_McMurray_wildfire https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E_OLgC4nV0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E_OLgC4nV0 88,000 people in perhaps 50,000 vehicles all taking the ONE road out of town. Some kind companies setup fuel trucks by the roadside to top up tanks. Gas delivery can be scaled up and even made portable in an emergency. Had those 50,000 vehicles all been EVs, tens of thousands of people would have been stuck beside the road hoping the fire picked a different direction.
ericmay 4y ago
EVs may currently be unfriendly toward self-repair but that doesn’t always have to be the case. I’d also suggest that you are operating under the illusion of self-repair. Is replacing a transmission something you can do? An engine? Sure let’s say you can. Personally I can’t replace an engine any more than I can replace a motor on an EV. I don’t have the tools, I still have to rely on society to procure the engine and tools and ship them to my house, etc. idk why this would be more or less difficult than replacing something on an EV besides the battery pack. I don’t really follow your EV battery comment unless you live in a very abnormal situation which is ok, but it makes your comment much more akin to an abnormal anecdote than a generalized point regarding EVs.
- NegativeLatency 4y ago
  Replacing an ev motor sounds easier to me than an engine. Assuming you can get parts
  - aetherspawn 4y ago
    But do you have the equipment to calibrate the resolver of this new motor by connecting to the inverter and writing the new resolver offset into its EEPROM? I thought not. If you swapped out the motor on your EV like you suggested, it would start spewing out illegal levels of EM interference, screaming like a pig and randomly chopping out at high speed. This is why self right to repair is a complex issue. Even for EVs which seem simple but are not. Every single component is so tightly coupled.
    - wffurr 4y ago
      >> But do you have the equipment to calibrate the resolver of this new motor by connecting to the inverter and writing the new resolver offset into its EEPROM? I thought not. Sounds like a simple Python script you could download from an enthusiast forum.
      - NegativeLatency 4y ago

plazmatic 4y ago

ezfe 4y ago

Internet connection ≠ EV. It just so happens many correlate, but many do not.

jen20 4y ago
Is there an EV available which is not internet connected?
- benhurmarcel 4y ago
  Basically all of them except Tesla
  - aembleton 4y ago
    The Mercedes are connected too. The MGs aren't for now.
    - jen20 4y ago
      Thanks for that pointer - I didn't realise that cars were being made under the MG name again, let along fairly reasonably priced electric SUVs!
- ezfe 4y ago
  Something like a VW ID.4 is just as connected as any other VW.

DennisP 4y ago

If you don't mind a super-aerodynamic lightweight three-wheeler, Aptera has a strong commitment to right-to-repair. They're making parts and manuals available to anyone. https://aptera.us/right-to-repair-commitment-feat-rich-rebuilds/ https://aptera.us/right-to-repair-commitment-feat-rich-rebui... https://cleantechnica.com/2021/11/19/a-recent-aptera-video-gives-us-a-peek-at-its-repairable-guts/ https://cleantechnica.com/2021/11/19/a-recent-aptera-video-g... They also get significantly more miles/kWh than most electrics, so the charging problem's easier.

kashkhan 4y ago
biggest problem is finding good battery packs at scale. Maybe one day we can have a co-op gigafactory.
sandworm101 4y ago
>> If you don't mind a super-aerodynamic lightweight three-wheeler In other words: not a car. No crash protection. Three-wheeled "cars" are simply an excuse to avoid various safety rules. They are essentially enclosed motorcycles, to the extent that in some jurisdictions you may need a motorcycle license/helmet to drive them.
- s0rce 4y ago
  Maybe ok if everyone drove them, I'd seriously consider it for my sunny commute in Nevada and parking all day outside in the desert. Unfortunately, everyone else is driving a massively oversized pickup truck and I'd prefer not to be obliterated.
  - DennisP 4y ago
    Yeah that's the only reason I haven't put in a preorder. They're making it as safe as they can but there's only so much you can do. Back in the 90s I drove a '73 Beetle and a '74 Pinto, and I'm sure it's safer than those. Maybe Aptera's customers will be some of today's 20-somethings.
hotpotamus 4y ago

hn_throwaway_99 4y ago

> Also an EV has more battery capacity than my house so it'd be pretty hard to charge a car in the winter when I can barely keep my house batteries running my house. Not sure if you're just talking about something specific to your house, or making a broader point. Once EVs are widespread, they can add a huge amount of storage capacity to the grid. Not hard to imagine utility and government incentives that encourage car owners to make some of their battery power available at peak load times.

sandworm101 4y ago
I'm not convinced. The "smart grid" has been discussed for over a decade. Would anyone here allow their Tesla to discharge when parked, allow it to feed power back into the grid? What if those extra charge/discharge cycles decreases the battery's life expectancy? The small bonus payments (pennies) just won't cut it imho. People will charge their cars and keep them charged.
- hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
  > Would anyone here allow their Tesla to discharge when parked, allow it to feed power back into the grid? I absolutely would, in fact it's a major reason I am not getting a Tesla and am instead opting for an EV that emphasizes its vehicle-to-home power capabilities (e.g. F150 Lightning and Lucid). I also know a ton of other Texans who feel the same way I do given our (deserved) lack of faith in our electric grid. Also, saying it's "feeding power back to the grid", while technically accurate, isn't necessarily how I think this will be messaged. Instead, I think it will be messaged that, in times of high demand, your house alone will be powered by your car battery and taken "off grid". Right now, some of the biggest issues with renewables is just timing during the day (e.g. late afternoon/early evening power needs peak right as the sun is setting). Telling people they'll get a substantially discounted rate if they allow their house to be "disconnected" from the grid for a few hours (because they have a car battery that can power their house) would be a big incentive to a lot of people.
  - sandworm101 4y ago

RichardCNormos 4y ago

JKCalhoun 4y ago
A lot of what-ifs. I suppose you go solar coupled with a whole-house battery storage system. Probably win a court case (and sizable payout) against a corporation cancelling your ability to drive your own car.
- RichardCNormos 4y ago
  > Probably win a court case (and sizable payout) against a corporation cancelling your ability to drive your own car. They would cancel your license to the software that operates the car. John Deere already does this with their industrial-scale farming tractors.
tapoxi 4y ago
I'm really not sure how my Volkswagen will not let me drive because of something I said on Twitter. Electric utilities are also regulated monopolies, they can't just cut my power without running afoul of a ton of laws. Even in such a ridiculous scenario, you can make your own electricity. You can't make your own gasoline.
- ThunderSizzle 4y ago
  I can get gas from multiple gas stations with cash without proving my identity. I can't do that with electricity right now.
  - NegativeLatency 4y ago
    Solar?
  - tapoxi 4y ago
    There are plenty of free charging stations out there. The closest one to my house is 5 minutes away at a grocery store.

threatofrain 4y ago

I would argue that whether you're driving a gas-powered BMW or an electric BMW, all car companies are motivated to add internet-driven features and metrics to future cars. Your car could be solar-powered and this would still be the case. The only way dis-incentives could confidently outweigh incentives would be if governments use laws & enforcement to destroy the value of tracking users.

ant6n 4y ago

I love the idea of an EV, but ultimately it’s just extending a pretty unsustainable car culture involving the allocation of half of urban space to individuals moving around 1~2 tons of metal in order to do trips that would be much shorter with better designed cities, while letting walking, cycling and transit languish.

JKCalhoun 4y ago
Agree. If EV, I prefer electric bikes/scooters. Especially that crazy swappable battery thing they have in Singapore (https://news.yahoo.com/trial-battery-swap-charge-stations-electronic-motorcycles-begin-soon-122250610.html https://news.yahoo.com/trial-battery-swap-charge-stations-el...). To be sure, in the U.S., you would probably still need a car in winter, rain... To that end, the wife and I are down to a single car we share between the two of us. (Seems like such a radical thing to do in the U.S. for some reason.)
- nradov 4y ago
  I don't know if it's radical, but having a single car stops being practical as soon as your two kids have to be at different sports tournaments 100 miles apart. Sure in theory you can rent another car when you need it, but in practice it's such a hassle that unless you're short of parking spaces it's easier to own 2 cars.

sandworm101 4y ago

I just completed a ~1600km drive back from visiting family. Half way through the outbound trip, in the middle of the mountains, I had to make a 300km detour due to a massive accident (two semi trucks head-on closed a mountain highway for more than a day). The detour was through a valley with no cellphone coverage for 150+km. At a rest stop I met a tesla driver in a panic. Without internet he was unable to figure out whether he should continue, turn around, or wait out the accident. That was the one and only electric vehicle I saw that day. There are some parts of this planet where it it very hard to envision mass EV adoption. (Here is a link if anyone wants to confirm my story, but be warned. You cannot unread this. It was a horrible accident.) https://www.aldergrovestar.com/news/fatal-semi-truck-collision-closes-highway-1-near-golden-for-over-24-hours/ https://www.aldergrovestar.com/news/fatal-semi-truck-collisi...

pjc50 4y ago
> There are some parts of this planet where it it very hard to envision mass EV adoption. Perhaps, but how are they going to adapt to significantly lower CO2 emission? Through drastically increased prices? Or just accept the 4C warming and hope the fires are after your lifetime?
ThunderSizzle 4y ago
Your facts are inconvenient and will probably just be dismissed sadly. EVs need to win by being better without more risk, not by trying to ban people currently using ICEs.
- sandworm101 4y ago
  More inconvenient facts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Fort_McMurray_wildfire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Fort_McMurray_wildfire https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E_OLgC4nV0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E_OLgC4nV0 88,000 people in perhaps 50,000 vehicles all taking the ONE road out of town. Some kind companies setup fuel trucks by the roadside to top up tanks. Gas delivery can be scaled up and even made portable in an emergency. Had those 50,000 vehicles all been EVs, tens of thousands of people would have been stuck beside the road hoping the fire picked a different direction.

ericmay 4y ago

EVs may currently be unfriendly toward self-repair but that doesn’t always have to be the case. I’d also suggest that you are operating under the illusion of self-repair. Is replacing a transmission something you can do? An engine? Sure let’s say you can. Personally I can’t replace an engine any more than I can replace a motor on an EV. I don’t have the tools, I still have to rely on society to procure the engine and tools and ship them to my house, etc. idk why this would be more or less difficult than replacing something on an EV besides the battery pack. I don’t really follow your EV battery comment unless you live in a very abnormal situation which is ok, but it makes your comment much more akin to an abnormal anecdote than a generalized point regarding EVs.

NegativeLatency 4y ago
Replacing an ev motor sounds easier to me than an engine. Assuming you can get parts
- aetherspawn 4y ago
  But do you have the equipment to calibrate the resolver of this new motor by connecting to the inverter and writing the new resolver offset into its EEPROM? I thought not. If you swapped out the motor on your EV like you suggested, it would start spewing out illegal levels of EM interference, screaming like a pig and randomly chopping out at high speed. This is why self right to repair is a complex issue. Even for EVs which seem simple but are not. Every single component is so tightly coupled.
  - wffurr 4y ago
    >> But do you have the equipment to calibrate the resolver of this new motor by connecting to the inverter and writing the new resolver offset into its EEPROM? I thought not. Sounds like a simple Python script you could download from an enthusiast forum.
    - NegativeLatency 4y ago