11 ms·

When are we going to hear about USB4.1 2x2 Gen 1 V2? Surely that will be compatible with existing cables.

by pmalynin 4y ago

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
bxparks 4y ago
I think you are joking about "USB4.1 2x2 Gen 1 V2", but I can't tell. USB naming is messed up.
- marcosdumay 4y ago
  I think it's only a matter of they renaming every model every time the standard is updated. So models come with $standard_version $standard_revision $main_model_version $minor_model_version, and there are different sets of all of those numbers that refer to the same thing. Or maybe they have another naming schema orthogonal to that that I don't know about.
- MBCook 4y ago
  To make it less confusing they’ll be moving to the old WiFi style names. The new versions will be called, in order: USB-A, USB-B, USB-R, USB-CZ, USB-L2, USB-S, then USB-D. To avoid confusion they’ll use the same physical port, which is now Type-C, but renamed Type-1138. USB-D is somewhat theoretical as we’re likely to go through more renaming by then. But I digress. It’s important to note each version of the standard supports both active (“o”) and passive (“u”) variants depending on distance. Power levels are a simple scale of 10^nth milliwatts, expressed as a Roman numeral for readability. So I = 10mw, II = 100mw, etc. Soon you can buy a highly advanced passive USB cable capable of delivering 10kW to your car for charging. USB-SuX.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
    Thanks, I hate it.
  - ffhhj 4y ago
    Waiting for USB-BSU
    - MerelyMortal 4y ago
      Sounds like a knock-off of NTSF:SD:SUV:: (a great show by the way)
      - whynaut 4y ago
        when I see that many letters, I just think Law and Order.
  - drdaeman 4y ago
    But in the end they'll "restart" it and call it just "USB".
- jeroenhd 4y ago
  On consumer devices, this would be "USB4 120Gbps". Look for this when you're in the store. If you're designing circuit boards or writing drivers, you'll need the full spec. Assuming the new spec pushes 60Gbps over a single lane, that would be "USB 4 Gen 4x2" going by the USB spec. Two lanes (x2) at the new lane type (4), part of the new USB 4 spec. A device only capable of driving a single new fancy lane would be "USB 4 Gen 4x1".
- CuriousCosmic 4y ago
  This kills me because USB naming is actually super straightforward. USB3.0, USB3.1, and USB3.2 are spec revisions. USB3.1 (and 3.2) support Gen 1 and Gen 2 physical layer/transmission modes (gen 1 is 8b/10b encoding and gen2 is 128b/132b encoding). USB3.2 adds support for using the extra differential pair in the cables to transmit data. So now you get x1 and x2 which correspond to the number of lanes available for data transmission (akin to PCIE x1, x4, x8, and x16). So USB3.2 gen 2 x2 is just the USB3.2 standard using 128b/132b encoding over 2 lanes. The problem is that everyone decided to use the tech spec identifiers rather than the consumer identifiers for labeling products. If you are in engineering working on making the product which uses USB ports, then you would look for ICs that support USB3.2 gen2x2 operation but if you are selling a consumer product, you are supposed to label it as a USB3 SS+ 20Gbps port.
Dalewyn 4y ago
The touted 80gbps one is presumably USB4 Gen4x2x2 (or Gen4x4?), this is presumably USB4 Gen4x3x1 or something. No, I don't even know. Can we please just call them fucking USB11 and USB12 or something?
- sophacles 4y ago
  No, V1 of the USB versioning scheme has been deprecated for several versioning scheme versions now.
  - bee_rider 4y ago
    The simple solution is to specify which versioning scheme you referring to when talking about USB, so USB4 Gen4x2x2(V1)
    - LexGray 4y ago
      Even easier. Just have the EU mandate that everybody will be required this year to support USB4 Gen4x2x2(v1) on all devices. This will solve everything!
- Dylan16807 4y ago
  The number after the x is the number of lanes, FYI.
- jeroenhd 4y ago
  80gbps is a bit of a weird one. To work with 120gbps, that would imply that 80gbps is two lanes and 120gbps is three lanes in a single cable. I suppose this is possible with the type C connector as it has plenty of pairs. This would make USB4 80gbps (the sticker you see on the box) USB4 Gen 4x2, as there are two lanes of the fourth lane type. The 120Gbps one contains three lanes of the fourth lane version, or USB4 Gen 4x3. There's no need for USB11 and USB12. Look at the 10/20/40/80/120Gbps sticker on the box. That tells you all you need to know.
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
metadat 4y ago
But what revision? R1 or R1.31? If you use an R1 cable on a 1.31 device, you may end up with a brick, or even worse a fire. Before plugging them in, I always dissect open the ends of my cables and examine the chips under a microscope just to be certain. Sometimes a delid is also needed, in such instances I head over to Ken Shirriff's house. :P
al2o3cr 4y ago
Personally, I'm waiting for USB4 HD Chain of Memories 358/2 Birth by Sleep Remix Final Chapter Prologue 2.0
- ArcMex 4y ago
  Wow, this comment is a sight for Soras
dheera 4y ago
I dunno but why can't we just use fiber already
- jabbany 4y ago
  Doesn't pass power? A huge chunk of the newer USB protocols has also been support for higher wattage faster charging.
  - dheera 4y ago
    So put power? You can run fiber right alongside 50 amp high voltage cables if you want without any signal corruption issues whatsoever. For practical purposes they'd need just {fiber, 19VDC, GND}, and none of the schengens that USB-C has. No shielding issues, no signal corruption issues, nothing. And you could run it for kilometers.
    - dTal 4y ago
      You need at least 5V DC for backwards compatibility with devices that expect that.
      - dheera 4y ago
        No, you don't. Get an adapter with a voltage converter, just like you would if you need to plug a 120V-only device in a 240V outlet. 120VAC outlets have not changed in 60 years and that's owing to the fact that they output just straight-up power, no negotiation BS.
        cesarb 4y ago
        > 120VAC outlets have not changed in 60 years Where I live, 120VAC outlets last changed less than 20 years ago, with the adoption of the new NBR 14136 standard for plugs and sockets.
        eternityforest 4y ago
        Voltage converters are big and not that reliable at the consumer level. Putting the power supply in something replacable is a good thing. Going from 19 to 5 would be an extra conversion step. Plus, 19v is too low. USB does 48v for the 240W mode. You could use more current, but then you are wasting copper and making connectors bigger and heavier. I used to not be a fan of negotiation but it seems that it's highly reliable these days, stuff isn't getting fried because of incorrect voltage selection.
joshstrange 4y ago
I was SURE they had learned their lesson after the clusterfuck that was 3.1/3.2 but no, right back at the same shit again. It's hard to see this as anything but purpose-built to make it harder to tell what a cable is capable of (a huge boon to scammers, aka: 90% of cable sellers). If the USB-IF had half a brain between them all (clearly they don't) they would require the data/charging/etc specs to be printed on the cable. Instead they spend their time coming up with confusing standards that are indecipherable to the average person which lead to a shitty world where everyone needs a cable tester to know what a cable is capable of, or they have constant bad experiences with a cable that fits the port but underperforms if it works at all. I've heard some people say this is because it's all marketing-driven vs engineering-driven, if that's the case the fire the whole department because they suck at marketing. It's gotten to the point the only cables I can trust are from Anker and even those suffer from lack of labeling on them.
- bravura 4y ago
  Can you recommend a reliable cable tester?
  - joshstrange 4y ago
    I wish, I've looked a little but part of the problem is the new specs. I doubt many testers can be "forward compatible" to be able to test new specs before they exist. I have an old USB-A tester I used but it's obviously useless for USB-C and all it's specs. Even then, the old tester I have just tells you the speed/wattage, not the max, it's more for monitoring than testing. At some point I'll just have to bite the bullet and get whatever is on the market and hope there aren't new specs right around the corner.
    - edude03 4y ago
      I believe Totalphase tests signal integrity instead of specifically what kind of cable it is - which solves the forward compatibility problem but their stuff is very expensive for the home user
  - 4y ago
RicoElectrico 4y ago
... & Knuckles (tm) But in all seriousness, this is one of the worst things marketer types make us suffer. Breaking consistency of naming and numbering. EACH and EVERY model series of ANYTHING successful just has to break the pattern at some time. Remember when Nokia phones had 4-digit model numbers, optionally with "i"? Then Nseries and Eseries arrived which all had Symbian, but confusingly enough they continued to make 4-digit models with Symbian in parallel. They also started "classic" and "slide" series which often reused other unrelated model numbers. Around 2010 they changed it all to a hot mess like X3-02, C3-01, then came 3-digit optionally with Asha in front. Thankfully they were not as creative with Lumia which had 3-digit or 4-digit models.
- rcthompson 4y ago
  USB4.1 2x2 Gen 1 V2 & Knuckles requires you to plug the cable into a special active adapter that then plugs into the device.
chx 4y ago
They did learn their lesson. The marketing name for USB4 cables are simply USB4® 20Gbps and USB4® 40Gbps https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/usb4_language_product_and_packaging_guidelines_final__0.pdf https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/usb4_language_produc... These version numbers are internal. Products will be called USB4® 80Gbps.
- okanat 4y ago
  The USB3 names were also internal (Proper marketing terms were Superspeed 5/10/20 Gbps). However motheboard manufacturers loved technobable as marketting.
noisy_boy 4y ago
If you make things compatible, how will you sell more things?

When are we going to hear about USB4.1 2x2 Gen 1 V2? Surely that will be compatible with existing cables.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

bxparks 4y ago

I think you are joking about "USB4.1 2x2 Gen 1 V2", but I can't tell. USB naming is messed up.

marcosdumay 4y ago
I think it's only a matter of they renaming every model every time the standard is updated. So models come with $standard_version $standard_revision $main_model_version $minor_model_version, and there are different sets of all of those numbers that refer to the same thing. Or maybe they have another naming schema orthogonal to that that I don't know about.
MBCook 4y ago
To make it less confusing they’ll be moving to the old WiFi style names. The new versions will be called, in order: USB-A, USB-B, USB-R, USB-CZ, USB-L2, USB-S, then USB-D. To avoid confusion they’ll use the same physical port, which is now Type-C, but renamed Type-1138. USB-D is somewhat theoretical as we’re likely to go through more renaming by then. But I digress. It’s important to note each version of the standard supports both active (“o”) and passive (“u”) variants depending on distance. Power levels are a simple scale of 10^nth milliwatts, expressed as a Roman numeral for readability. So I = 10mw, II = 100mw, etc. Soon you can buy a highly advanced passive USB cable capable of delivering 10kW to your car for charging. USB-SuX.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  Thanks, I hate it.
- ffhhj 4y ago
  Waiting for USB-BSU
  - MerelyMortal 4y ago
    Sounds like a knock-off of NTSF:SD:SUV:: (a great show by the way)
    - whynaut 4y ago
      when I see that many letters, I just think Law and Order.
- drdaeman 4y ago
  But in the end they'll "restart" it and call it just "USB".
jeroenhd 4y ago
On consumer devices, this would be "USB4 120Gbps". Look for this when you're in the store. If you're designing circuit boards or writing drivers, you'll need the full spec. Assuming the new spec pushes 60Gbps over a single lane, that would be "USB 4 Gen 4x2" going by the USB spec. Two lanes (x2) at the new lane type (4), part of the new USB 4 spec. A device only capable of driving a single new fancy lane would be "USB 4 Gen 4x1".
CuriousCosmic 4y ago
This kills me because USB naming is actually super straightforward. USB3.0, USB3.1, and USB3.2 are spec revisions. USB3.1 (and 3.2) support Gen 1 and Gen 2 physical layer/transmission modes (gen 1 is 8b/10b encoding and gen2 is 128b/132b encoding). USB3.2 adds support for using the extra differential pair in the cables to transmit data. So now you get x1 and x2 which correspond to the number of lanes available for data transmission (akin to PCIE x1, x4, x8, and x16). So USB3.2 gen 2 x2 is just the USB3.2 standard using 128b/132b encoding over 2 lanes. The problem is that everyone decided to use the tech spec identifiers rather than the consumer identifiers for labeling products. If you are in engineering working on making the product which uses USB ports, then you would look for ICs that support USB3.2 gen2x2 operation but if you are selling a consumer product, you are supposed to label it as a USB3 SS+ 20Gbps port.

Dalewyn 4y ago

The touted 80gbps one is presumably USB4 Gen4x2x2 (or Gen4x4?), this is presumably USB4 Gen4x3x1 or something. No, I don't even know. Can we please just call them fucking USB11 and USB12 or something?

sophacles 4y ago
No, V1 of the USB versioning scheme has been deprecated for several versioning scheme versions now.
- bee_rider 4y ago
  The simple solution is to specify which versioning scheme you referring to when talking about USB, so USB4 Gen4x2x2(V1)
  - LexGray 4y ago
    Even easier. Just have the EU mandate that everybody will be required this year to support USB4 Gen4x2x2(v1) on all devices. This will solve everything!
Dylan16807 4y ago
The number after the x is the number of lanes, FYI.
jeroenhd 4y ago
80gbps is a bit of a weird one. To work with 120gbps, that would imply that 80gbps is two lanes and 120gbps is three lanes in a single cable. I suppose this is possible with the type C connector as it has plenty of pairs. This would make USB4 80gbps (the sticker you see on the box) USB4 Gen 4x2, as there are two lanes of the fourth lane type. The 120Gbps one contains three lanes of the fourth lane version, or USB4 Gen 4x3. There's no need for USB11 and USB12. Look at the 10/20/40/80/120Gbps sticker on the box. That tells you all you need to know.
- Dalewyn 4y ago

metadat 4y ago

But what revision? R1 or R1.31? If you use an R1 cable on a 1.31 device, you may end up with a brick, or even worse a fire. Before plugging them in, I always dissect open the ends of my cables and examine the chips under a microscope just to be certain. Sometimes a delid is also needed, in such instances I head over to Ken Shirriff's house. :P

al2o3cr 4y ago

Personally, I'm waiting for USB4 HD Chain of Memories 358/2 Birth by Sleep Remix Final Chapter Prologue 2.0

ArcMex 4y ago
Wow, this comment is a sight for Soras

dheera 4y ago

I dunno but why can't we just use fiber already

jabbany 4y ago
Doesn't pass power? A huge chunk of the newer USB protocols has also been support for higher wattage faster charging.
- dheera 4y ago
  So put power? You can run fiber right alongside 50 amp high voltage cables if you want without any signal corruption issues whatsoever. For practical purposes they'd need just {fiber, 19VDC, GND}, and none of the schengens that USB-C has. No shielding issues, no signal corruption issues, nothing. And you could run it for kilometers.
  - dTal 4y ago
    You need at least 5V DC for backwards compatibility with devices that expect that.
    - dheera 4y ago
      No, you don't. Get an adapter with a voltage converter, just like you would if you need to plug a 120V-only device in a 240V outlet. 120VAC outlets have not changed in 60 years and that's owing to the fact that they output just straight-up power, no negotiation BS.
      - cesarb 4y ago
        > 120VAC outlets have not changed in 60 years Where I live, 120VAC outlets last changed less than 20 years ago, with the adoption of the new NBR 14136 standard for plugs and sockets.
      - eternityforest 4y ago
        Voltage converters are big and not that reliable at the consumer level. Putting the power supply in something replacable is a good thing. Going from 19 to 5 would be an extra conversion step. Plus, 19v is too low. USB does 48v for the 240W mode. You could use more current, but then you are wasting copper and making connectors bigger and heavier. I used to not be a fan of negotiation but it seems that it's highly reliable these days, stuff isn't getting fried because of incorrect voltage selection.

joshstrange 4y ago

I was SURE they had learned their lesson after the clusterfuck that was 3.1/3.2 but no, right back at the same shit again. It's hard to see this as anything but purpose-built to make it harder to tell what a cable is capable of (a huge boon to scammers, aka: 90% of cable sellers). If the USB-IF had half a brain between them all (clearly they don't) they would require the data/charging/etc specs to be printed on the cable. Instead they spend their time coming up with confusing standards that are indecipherable to the average person which lead to a shitty world where everyone needs a cable tester to know what a cable is capable of, or they have constant bad experiences with a cable that fits the port but underperforms if it works at all. I've heard some people say this is because it's all marketing-driven vs engineering-driven, if that's the case the fire the whole department because they suck at marketing. It's gotten to the point the only cables I can trust are from Anker and even those suffer from lack of labeling on them.

bravura 4y ago
Can you recommend a reliable cable tester?
- joshstrange 4y ago
  I wish, I've looked a little but part of the problem is the new specs. I doubt many testers can be "forward compatible" to be able to test new specs before they exist. I have an old USB-A tester I used but it's obviously useless for USB-C and all it's specs. Even then, the old tester I have just tells you the speed/wattage, not the max, it's more for monitoring than testing. At some point I'll just have to bite the bullet and get whatever is on the market and hope there aren't new specs right around the corner.
  - edude03 4y ago
    I believe Totalphase tests signal integrity instead of specifically what kind of cable it is - which solves the forward compatibility problem but their stuff is very expensive for the home user
- 4y ago

RicoElectrico 4y ago

... & Knuckles (tm) But in all seriousness, this is one of the worst things marketer types make us suffer. Breaking consistency of naming and numbering. EACH and EVERY model series of ANYTHING successful just has to break the pattern at some time. Remember when Nokia phones had 4-digit model numbers, optionally with "i"? Then Nseries and Eseries arrived which all had Symbian, but confusingly enough they continued to make 4-digit models with Symbian in parallel. They also started "classic" and "slide" series which often reused other unrelated model numbers. Around 2010 they changed it all to a hot mess like X3-02, C3-01, then came 3-digit optionally with Asha in front. Thankfully they were not as creative with Lumia which had 3-digit or 4-digit models.

rcthompson 4y ago
USB4.1 2x2 Gen 1 V2 & Knuckles requires you to plug the cable into a special active adapter that then plugs into the device.

chx 4y ago

They did learn their lesson. The marketing name for USB4 cables are simply USB4® 20Gbps and USB4® 40Gbps https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/usb4_language_product_and_packaging_guidelines_final__0.pdf https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/usb4_language_produc... These version numbers are internal. Products will be called USB4® 80Gbps.

okanat 4y ago
The USB3 names were also internal (Proper marketing terms were Superspeed 5/10/20 Gbps). However motheboard manufacturers loved technobable as marketting.

noisy_boy 4y ago

If you make things compatible, how will you sell more things?