19 ms·
At $249 per day, prison stays leave ex-inmates deep in debt
- voisin 4y agoAm I the only one that was unaware that charging inmates for jail was a thing?
- Laaas 4y agoNo, and this sounds like it gives states all the wrong incentives.
- gruez 4y agoIs it any more wrong than fines?
- arcticbull 4y agoYes, fines are governed by the 8th amendment which requires they not be excessive.
- Xeoncross 4y agoWhich of course they always are, sometimes.
- MichaelCollins 4y ago> always are, sometimes. Heh. For real though, fines that aren't adjusted to the offenders wealth seem to give legal impunity to the wealthy. But performing that adjustment without a floor essentially gives legal impunity to people at rock bottom. The trick is finding some middle ground where all criminals, poor and rich, can be effectively punished to deter crimes of opportunity.
- drexlspivey 4y agoBeing charged for going to prison might be the most American thing I’ve ever heard
- InCityDreams 4y agoNaaaah, basic fucking healthcare.
- shakezula 4y agoYou're certainly not alone, but it was eye-opening as fuck for me getting arrested at 25 and finding out I was about to be charged thousands of dollars for a single night stay in the county jail.
- wombat-man 4y agoMust have been a real classy place.
- kareemsabri 4y agoFirst I heard of it. This is insane.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- thriftwy 4y agoWow, that's exactly what USSR under Stalin would do. Except that they would jusr charge you for yearly robes and not for the daily pleasure to stay under gulag.
- breitling 4y ago>All but two states have so-called “pay-to-stay” laws that make prisoners pay for their time behind bars What? Had no idea about this whatsoever and I consider myself a well-read person. Damn.
- api 4y agoI too knew nothing about this and honestly find that frightening. How many other grotesquely perverse laws are on the books? Someone needs to create a hall of shame for these laws index by federal and for every state. This is perverse on so many levels. It’s not only ongoing punishment but it disincentivizes people from getting their lives in order and probably increases recidivism rates quite a bit. So in the end I wouldn’t be surprised if it costs more.
- otikik 4y agoSlavery has an exception for people in prison in the Constitution
- djitz 4y agoSadly, it gets much worse the more you look into it. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/aug/17/pennsylvania-judges-kids-for-cash-damages-ciavarella-conahan https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/aug/17/pennsylvania...
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- blooalien 4y ago> … "and probably increases recidivism rates quite a bit." I'm fairly sure that's intentional, as prisons are "big business" in the USA (which also probably explains the ridiculously high rate of imprisonment here).
- isoprophlex 4y agoNothing weird going on here... It's the free market doing it's thing. Apparently staying in prison is in high demand, driving up prices. /s
- arcticbull 4y agoEvery day I find new reason to believe the American penal system unconscionable. Not only is slavery permitted, the US is the subject of the ire of the United Nations over it (the ILO, specifically). For-profit prisons with state minimum occupancy clauses. Charging prisoners for their time there. And one of the highest incarceration levels and worst recidivism rates in the world. What exactly is the point of any of this?
- ryan93 4y ago
- arcticbull 4y agoThe reality is that there are so many crimes in the United States that the set itself is uncountable. There have been a number of attempts to count. I guarantee you that you have, today alone, accrued enough legal liability to put you away for the rest of your life. Part of what makes this difficult to even count in the first place are bills like the Lacey act which makes it a felony for you to violate any other countries fish and wildlife laws - if you ever came into possession of a dead lobster less than 6 inches long for any reason - felony. What happens is the folks who end up in prison haven't accrued any more of less liability - instead they drew attention. If you'd like to learn more I recommend Three Felonies a Day. [1] I guess the question I have for you is why aren't you in prison now? Why did you choose to commit all those crimes, and what makes you exempt? Further if your argument is then 'well I shouldn't be in prison because I didn't get caught' - now you're no longer arguing that these people shouldn't have 'done crimes' your argument is they should have been better at it? [1] https://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594035229 https://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp...
- ryan93 4y agoI haven't committed any violent crimes nor have most people. A substantial number of prisoners have. In fact countless murderous and rapist criminals go free.
- dhkart 4y ago
- standardUser 4y agoWhat drives me absolutely insane about stories like this is that so many of the people suffering under these policies are guilty of little more than market participation. The government strains, at extraordinary expense, to pretend they can stop drugs from being made, bought and sold, but they can't. They simply can't. Countless laws, countless billions of dollars and countless ruined lives later, drugs are no less popular or accessible than they ever were in the past. The government gave it their best shot, failed in spectacular fashion over generations, and anyone who still supports this approach is either hopelessly brainwashed or, maybe, just not very smart.
- shakezula 4y agoMost of the time, supporters of these laws aren't brainwashed or stupid. They just prefer the status quo that these laws uphold, which tends to overlay nearly perfectly with class lines.
- yeeyeeyee 4y ago>Supporters say the collections are a legitimate way for states to recoup millions of taxpayer dollars spent on prisons and jails. Wait there are supporters of this? You're telling me if I asked 100 people on the street, there'd be someone that said "oh yeah this is a pretty fair and reasonable law to charge the inmates 5-star hotel prices"??
- rzazueta 4y agoDepends on how you ask the question. "Is it fair to incarcerate individuals for their preference of intoxicant in a free and liberal democracy?" "Should drug users and other junkies be taken off the streets to keep them safe for the rest of us?"
- yeeyeeyee 4y agoThat's not my question. There's exactly one way to ask my question. "Do you think prisoners should be charged $250/night for their incarceration?"
- encryptluks2 4y agoI've come to expect this. Hopefully the larger message with the student loan debt forgiveness isn't that they are forgiving 10k in student debt, or even that the people complaining about it had millions in PPP loans forgiven... but instead that they forgave near a trillion in PPP loans, some wealthy individuals having several million forgiven, but the most they can afford for low-income students is 10k. Leave it to America to reward the rich and shit on the poor.
- tastyfreeze 4y agoI am against student loan forgiveness and am not rich or in any position of power. I am against the government spending tax money to benefit a subset of the country.
- encryptluks2 4y agoThe idea behind student loan forgiveness isn't that they only benefit a subset of the country, but that better education benefits the entire country.
- tastyfreeze 4y agoThey already have the education if they are in debt. Time to pay it off like everybody else.
- encryptluks2 4y agoThat restricts their options to find work that adequately utilizes their education.
- tastyfreeze 4y agoI'm not following. Being in debt restricts what jobs are available? A student takes a loan to get an education. When taking the loan they agreed to the terms which includes paying it back. There is no stipulation in the loan agreement on what jobs they take to pay back the loan. Being in debt does not change what jobs are available.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- dreen 4y agoWhen I toured the Tower of London I was told this happened to many improsined in the dungeon there. People would sometimes be held indefinietely for small crimes as they wouldn't be able to pay off their initial "accomodation". It seemed an insanely unfair practice and even though I knew US prison system is fucked, I had no idea it was this bad.
- tomatocracy 4y agoNot just in the Tower - this was pretty common practice up until the mid to late Victorian era I think - eg it features in Dickens's writing to some extent.
- marvin 4y agoDoesn't the US pride itself on having abolished debtor's prison due to the immorality of incarcerating people for unpaid debts? That the converse is happening; forcing people to rack up huge debts for being incarcerated seems unbelievably mean and downright farcical.
- blooalien 4y agoSadly, the USA prides itself on the illusion of a lot of things it doesn't actually deliver on.
- nickdothutton 4y agoIn the UK it costs the taxpayer about $60K per year per prisoner to keep them locked up, according to official figures. However if you take the overall annual budget for the prison service and divide by the number of prisoners I think the figure is closer to $100K. I’ve often wondered what the cost might be to house that population somewhere else, somewhere less expensive, like Turkey or Greece.
- throwaway5959 4y agoI’m sure Turkey and Greece would love that.
- tmpz22 4y agoOutsourcing prisons to cheaper authoritarian countries sounds like a bad idea.
- Method-X 4y agoMy god, please don't give the US any ideas!
- ben_w 4y ago"the transportation of convicts to his Majesty's colonies and plantations in America ... is found to be attended with various inconveniences," - one of the ways the British parliament described the American war of independence, Marilyn C. Baseler, "Asylum for Mankind": America, 1607-1800, p.124-127 via Wikipedia.
- dillondoyle 4y agotoo late. those seeking asylum are forced to 'remain in Mexico' and others flown back into dangerous places. Instances where people are forcibly deported somewhere they have never spent time as an adult, have no family, no money, etc. I find the whole system disgusting. The US Govt purposefully restricts opportunities to request asylum in the way in which our govt deems 'legal.' e.g. a few people at a time through sparse border crossings. And then prosecute those who cross the border because it's the only way to state their claim. Shameful. The propaganda of 'invasion' and 'replacement' has really made this a politically toxic issue. A dangerous one at that.
- nimbius 4y agoformer inmate here. I remember having to discharge nearly 30 grand in bankruptcy my second day out of the klink because I couldnt honest to god afford anything. I'd moved back in with an old roommate and was going to trade tech school. other things that cost money include: soap, toilet paper, toothpaste, and basic analgesics like aspirin. phone calls are around $9 a minute. a letter is around $4. if you had an accident or need serious medical care it will be billed to you during your stay and comes out of your commissary. oh and any supervised release after your sentence? that costs money too.
- prox 4y agoHow do people even pay that back? It sounds as if one most be incredibly lucky to get back on the rails? What happens if you don’t pay?
- adgjlsfhk1 4y agotheir wages get taken to pay for it and they end up homeless usually.
- quavxc 4y agoThe next step would be to charge electricity for the electric chair, analogous to the time tested "bullet fee": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet_fee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet_fee
- xwdv 4y agoWealth inequality has grown to such levels that the poor can't even afford to go to prison these days.
- akomtu 4y agoThis looks like a scheme to keep ex-inmates underwater. To rejoin the society they need legal income. Prisons watch out for such "deserters" and take half of their income, so they won't have enough for rent or food, and would have to go back to crime, and eventually to a prison. Where is the profit for prisons? It's twofold: forced labor where inmates make license plates and some basic goods, and admin fees for managing prisons where taxpayers foot the bill.
- punnerud 4y agoIn Norway you earn money in prison, and we still have lower percentage of people in prison.
- HellsMaddy 4y agoIt's almost like burdening people who have been to prison with immense debt makes them *more* likely to end up back in prison; allowing them work, learn and improve skills, and save up some money for getting back on their feet makes them *less* likely to end up back in prison. Who would've thought?! It almost seems like someone wants people in prison, as if someone is profiting off of it or something. Hmmmm....
- Ekaros 4y agoMakes one question does the system even want to keep these people out. Or give them chances to not reoffend. Each time it sounds like there is zero intent to have them reintegrate in society. Even if so many programs and other things are run. But the basics are not covered...
- paulryanrogers 4y agoIs it a fair comparison though? Norway is relatively small and homogenous compared to the US. And doesn't have a puritanical and pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps culture. EDIT: I don't mean to defend the US here. It's a terrible system. Rather just point out the societies are so different I don't think what works in Norway can transfer directly to the US.
- lawn 4y agoThere is no "fair" comparison, because quite frankly the US is quite unique in this respect. (Well, I guess you could say that countries like North Korea are worse, but even the thought of having to compare against North Korea should give a hint on how bad things really are.)
- powerhour 4y agoWhat does homogeneity have to do with it?
- peterkelly 4y agoWhat happens if you can't pay or refuse to pay? Do they put you back in prison?
- ec109685 4y agoThe article covers this — they take money any opportunity they can. The person profiled in the article owes 1.5 million after 17 years, so will never be able to accumulate any sort of wealth.
- marvin 4y agoI guess it's too much to hope for that this debt can be discharged during personal bankruptcy? And is it politically incorrect to say that this is essentially a form of slavery?
- shakezula 4y agoYears ago, I got a speeding ticket. I worked nights at the time, and the office to make the payment at had very strange hours because it was from a tiny town. My schedule made it difficult to make it over to the office during open hours, and one of the times I tried it was closed randomly over lunch because again, small town. (I learned later there was only one person who ran the whole office.) A day after my speeding ticket payment was due, I was pulled over, arrested for driving on a suspended license (quite roughly, I might add), and hauled to jail, where they booked me, processed me, and charged me thousands upon thousands of dollars for the privilege of being arrested. The whole process was structured around profit. It absolutely demolished my meager savings account at the time, and damn near kept me from being able to attend the code bootcamp I was enrolled in. It taught me a serious lesson about the law: They exist only for power and profit. The entire experience cost me over $3000 for a speeding ticket of 5 mph over the stated limit. I've got a nice little arrest mention on my criminal record now, though, so that's nice.
- hef19898 4y agoYou cannot pay your tickets by wiring the money?
- williamscales 4y agoNo? As far as I know that is not a thing in the US. Sometimes you can pay by credit card, but that's a more recent thing.
- bsagdiyev 4y agoI have always been able to pay online, over the phone or via mail for my tickets with check, cash, card, or money order. This is in two states: California and North Carolina. For anything more serious than a speeding ticket in NC is a mandatory court visit depending on severity, California has a few more things you can just pay a fine than NC afaik.
- cafard 4y agoOur most recent two tickets were from speed cameras. In both cases we sent in checks.
- Ycombigatorz 4y ago
- erdos4d 4y agoAt some point American has to shut down this horrible failed experiment with mass incarceration. I feel like I'm watching the end stages of it where they try to make it as absurd as possible and get the last bit of cash out of everyone. I sincerely hope this whole system collapses soon.
- arbuge 4y ago> Former Connecticut inmate Fred Hodges, who served more than 17 years in prison for killing a man while trying to retrieve his son’s stolen bicycle, came into $21,000 after his car was totaled in a 2009 traffic accident. The state claimed half of that, he said. After paying his lawyer, he was left with about $3,000. That's not coming into money. His $21k was compensation for the vehicle he no longer has. He was more liquid for some time but not in any way richer. It's grossly unfair for the state to interpret that money as something they could go after, even if such pay-to-stay laws were fair (which I don't think they are). What replacement vehicle is he going to get with $3k now?
- Lev1a 4y agoOn the topic of prison systems in America vs. the civilized world, this is absolutely worth a watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtV5ev6813I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtV5ev6813I
- camdenlock 4y agoCounterpoint question to most of the comments I’m seeing here: Who then is supposed to pay for a criminal’s stay in prison? Law-abiding tax-payers? Laws that SEND people to prison (like drug possession laws) can be fairly painted as ridiculous, but when it comes to paying for the actual prison infrastructure… it seems a lot less ethically clear.
- otikik 4y agoAbsolutely yes. It’s a shared cost just like road maintenance or sewer systems.
- quesera 4y ago> Who then is supposed to pay for a criminal’s stay in prison? Law-abiding tax-payers? Absolutely yes. If society is improved by the removal of these individuals from free association therein, and the decision is made to do so, then society should be responsible for the costs necessary to make it happen. Cost of enforcement should be a limiting factor on the expansion of laws. If nothing else, it is a proxy for the number of people criminalized, which is a measure of social acceptability (and/or lack of negative impact) of the behaviour itself.
- rendall 4y agoOh, no, it is extremely clear, ethically. Charging someone $249 per day for years is literally extortionate. Even a short sentence can destroy someone's opportunities for life.
- hef19898 4y agoIf society decides to, temporarily or for ever, lock some members away (in democracies that happens yhrough laws and courts), well, yes then society has to pay for it. And those locked away have to be treated fairly and humane. Just because someone is in jail doesn't make that person less human.
- Ekaros 4y agoIf you want to jail or inprison someone I think it is entirely reasonable to pay for it too. Else just fine them, or kill them on the spot.
- lizardactivist 4y agoPrison is business in the US, and the states and city offices want their share, too.
- dqpb 4y agoI would love to see an itemization of the charges: $10 Slave-labor Breakfast $5 Leasure time $10 bathroom access $5 Billy club smack $5 radio access $15 Slave-labor lunch $30 sunshine $20 Slave-labor dinner $10 tv $10 phone $129 Cage rental
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- hollywood_court 4y agoThe police in the US exist to monetize our mistakes and protect the the wealth of wealthy individuals.
- bonney_io 4y ago$249/day is only $31/hour, on eight hour shifts; obviously these people should go get one or two of these plentiful jobs paying $30+/hour! /s
- jollybean 4y agoI actually do believe it's perfectly fair in theory to require criminals to pay for damages etc. that said, the application of all of that can be very problematic.
- greendude29 4y agoWhy? Here's 3 reasons why it is bonkers to require this: 1. By requiring this, the government is foregoing its primary stake in preventetive justice, ie recidivism 2. This is double punishment 3. A government's role is to ensure its population thrives, not a balanced checkbook