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EVs cost 22% less to service than ICE cars, new data shows
- bediger4000 4y agoBig Repair and those auto warranty scammers will hate this. Another 2 reasons why the US won't transition to electric vehicles.
- anovikov 4y agoSurprisingly little difference. It's simply a ripoff because electric car owners are still perceived as rich. Will come way down.
- jes5199 4y agofor now, EV makers have amazing margins, because they're competing against expensive ICE cars. once they're competing against each other, it'll change pretty fast
- mbfg 4y agoHow about when the battery goes bad. Currently only ice owners keep their cars for a r-e-a-l-l-y long time, in general. If ev's ever come down in price, and more 'regular' people buy them, i'd expect the battery cost is going to crush people. Let's see what happens when people routinely try to keep 20 yr old evs.
- r00fus 4y agoI expect they'll be fine. Most of the EVs that required battery replacement were early Nissan Leafs with bad thermal management systems. My EV (5yo) has 96% capacity. Can't wait to test it again at 10y.
- tim333 4y agoAlso hopefully batteries will get cheaper over time.
- nradov 4y agoBattery cells will get cheaper over time. New battery packs for EVs older than ~10 years will often be unavailable at any price because they're no longer manufactured, or will be so expensive that the car gets scrapped. DRM features will make it difficult for third-party auto parts manufacturers to sell cheaper aftermarket replacement packs.
- petra 4y agoTesla was working on batteries with a 20-year lifespan.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- Kuinox 4y agoZoe cars that sold 10 years ago can still get their battery replaced without much difficulties.
- nradov 4y agoCool. How much does that cost including all parts and labor as a percentage of the vehicle's value? Does Renault actually sell new production battery packs for those vehicles, or just refurbished parts with degraded capacity?
- Kuinox 4y ago> Does Renault actually sell new production battery packs for those vehicles, Yes. > How much does that cost including all parts and labor as a percentage of the vehicle's value? I think you are overestimating the time it take to replace a battery with appropriate equipment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23qFN9sLjVU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23qFN9sLjVU Initially only leased batteries were available, so there is still a lot of people with leased batteries, and batteries get swapped for free when capacity drop below 75%. The trick is that the battery capacity rarely go below 75%. Battery replacement is something very rare (which make leasing a bad deal), 10 years laters there is still very few peoples that peoples that made their car batteries replaced.
- jes5199 4y agoI'm trying to picture what the cost of a LiPo battery array was 20 years ago, in 2002
- KennyBlanken 4y agoThis argument started when the original Prius came out in 1997, twenty five years ago. Lots of predictions of "totaled" priuses, an environmental apocalypse, "gotcha, liberals!" etc. What actually happened: a cottage industry for repairing the battery packs sprung up to meet demand or when they'd fail, which wasn't that often (and indeed, Hybrid Camrys became the standard taxi cab in a number of US cities, racking up hundreds of thousands of miles on their batteries.) There are shops all around the country that do cell replacement now and getting your hybrid battery pack serviced is less painful than a lot of major engine repairs. Bolt EVs were (in large part due to GM's extremely conservative charge profiles for DCFC) seeing much less battery degradation than expected. Right up until the manufacturing defects reared their head...and GM has replaced all the batteries, giving them a very long warranty...8, maybe 10 years? I forget which. > If ev's ever come down in price You can buy several EV models new for under $30k, which is substantially less than the median car price in the US.
- mr337 4y agoAgree with this. This thread also mentioned the early Nissan Leaf, and exact same thing happened, a new cottage industry popped up to support rebuilds and even further range increase.
- Gibbon1 4y agoNotable, in California EV and hybrid batteries get a ten year 150,000 mile warranty. Speaking of Bolts, two years ago you could buy one with 30k miles on it for $15-18k. Can't now! The argument that EV's are too expensive based solely off the purchase price while ignoring everything else gets tiresome. My take is lower maintenance costs and depreciation beats out the difference between the cost of electricity vs gas. 5 cents/mile vs 12-15 cents a mile. That's only 7 to 10 cents/mile difference. EV's cost less to run even if gasoline were free.
- mbfg 4y agoyeah, but i'd argue ten years is nothing. I don't doubt batteries will last 10 years, and for affluent people, cars are replaced more often than that. But if you are talking about wide spread adoption, low and lower middle class are going to keep cars much longer, if they can even afford new cars... And speaking of, would you dare buy a used ev car? You probably are talking at least 10K for a ten year old EV, and then if the battery is shot, and you now have to dump another 8K at least. Used EVs, imo, are a risky purchase.
- csnover 4y agoThe average age of a car on the road today in America is 12 years. According to Hedges & Company, only ~10% of all cars on the road today are 20 years or older[0]. That’s not a small number, but “in general”, people do not drive 20 year old cars. The minimum battery warranty for an EV in the US is 8 years or 100k miles[1], and crowdsourced reports of battery degradation over time suggest that (at least for Tesla vehicles) it is not a major issue; range loss averages out to around 11% at 200k miles[2], which is the expected EOL for most ICE vehicles[3]. There are anecdotal reports of high-mileage EVs running on the same battery for over 350k miles[4] and 620k miles[5] without issue. [0] https://hedgescompany.com/blog/2022/02/how-old-are-cars/ https://hedgescompany.com/blog/2022/02/how-old-are-cars/ [1] https://www.myev.com/research/buyers-sellers-advice/evaluating-electric-vehicle-warranties https://www.myev.com/research/buyers-sellers-advice/evaluati... [2] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1c3m9wqlxPBo8ziDYVm5cHRzNCHZbtI_2vVhlXksX9Jc/edit#gid=826479810 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1c3m9wqlxPBo8ziDYVm5c... [3] https://www.caranddriver.com/research/a32758625/how-many-miles-does-a-car-last/ https://www.caranddriver.com/research/a32758625/how-many-mil... [4] https://insideevs.com/news/342457/this-tesla-model-x-90d-covered-350000-miles-on-original-battery/ https://insideevs.com/news/342457/this-tesla-model-x-90d-cov... [5] https://jalopnik.com/one-tesla-model-s-has-gone-nearly-1-million-miles-and-n-1848362945 https://jalopnik.com/one-tesla-model-s-has-gone-nearly-1-mil...
- antisthenes 4y agoWhile I agree that batteries are getting better and cheaper, there are several issues with your sources. 1. There are only 9 data points for only 1 brand of EVs on that sheet. This is essentially anecdotal data. There are 10 data points (just as many) of batteries under 80% of capacity with varying mileages. What happened with those? As a consumer, I don't want to get bad luck of the draw and be one of those. 2. The 1 million mile Tesla is on its 3rd battery pack. It's not a valid observation. At best we can surmise that a battery pack can last roughly ~333,333 miles under good conditions. But this is still a premium vehicle (P85) that is out of reach of most consumers with a large battery pack. What would the numbers be for a Nissan 45 kWh pack for example? If it's roughly half of 333k, then it's not as impressive anymore. Maybe 1/3 of that? The biggest issue though is that EVs still carry a substantial premium above ICE vehicles, which can only be realized in savings over a long period of high gasoline prices ($5+).
- panick21_ 4y agoNot really. Even boring standard NMC battery will last a very long time. Sure at some point it will degrade and only have 80% capacity but even then you can continue to use it for many years after that. Unless you have some electrical breakdown or something like that many batteries that we are building now can easily last 20+ years.
- lostlogin 4y agoI’ve serviced my poor Corolla once in 10 years. That service was NZ$1500. It’s hard to believe my maintenance costs could fall. But it would be really nice if they do.
- DeRock 4y agoWhat about oil changes?
- lostlogin 4y agoYup, they gave it one. I never did. I am ashamed, but also impressed. We have 2 of the same car and both receive this crappy treatment and have yet to fail us.
- jimlikeslimes 4y agoOne in 10 years? You've been extremely lucky or only driven it < 2000 miles per year I'd say. Oil change people, it's cheap and keeps things good.
- throwaway5959 4y agoI’m shocked how often I hear about people never changing their oil. This isn’t optional maintenance like wiper blades.
- lostlogin 4y agoIf it's the third Corolla Ive treated this way, and all have been in the family 8-12 years, is it wrong to call it optional? Low KM use.
- throwaway5959 4y agoWhy are you doing through a car every 4 years?
- givemeethekeys 4y agoDoes it cost 22% less to service an EV vs a Japanese ICE car?
- neon_electro 4y agoI believe it does, if both cars are intended to be driven the same cycle (all-season daily driver vs. seasonally used vehicle). I still need to compile and review my vehicle expenses from the past 7 years of EV ownership, but at the end of the day, all an EV needs in 5-10 years/100-200k miles of usage is regular tire rotations/replacements, wiper replacements, and cabin air filters to your preferences. There's literally nothing else to do on the Chevy Bolt EV maintenance schedule until 150,000 miles, when it's recommended to drain and refill the vehicle coolant circuits.[0] [0] https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/chevy-bolt-maintenance-schedule/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/chevy-bolt-maintenance-sc...
- r00fus 4y agoI have owned an EV for the past 5 years (50k mi mostly commute to work) and here's what I've paid for maintenance: Wiper fluid, replace 12v battery (due to COVID and not driving). That's it. I did go to the tire shop but they pulled a screw from the tire, patched it up and told me there's plenty of tread. They also inspected the brake pads and they were years away from replacement (due to regen braking). None of the following I had to do for my first 5 years owning an ICE car: * fuel, oil, air filter replacement * replace oil, brake pads. * (if you're unlucky) transmission/engine repair Never having to visit a gas station (unless I'm low on tire pressure) is zen.
- anon23anon 4y agoFeel like the brake pad and tire part are more just luck but agree that they're less maintenance overall. Downside is when they break there's no fixing them :)
- drewg123 4y agoMany EVs support a regen based "1 pedal" driving mode, where lifing from the accelerator slows the vehicle rapidly. This leaves brakes for emergency stopping and parking. My 2017 Tesla MX-100D doesn't quiet have this (you need brakes below 5mph), and I have almost 0 pad wear. Where you will run into problems with brakes is due to corrosion if you live in a climate where roads are salted in the winter. Since the pads last so much longer, there is a danger that the disposable parts that are designed to last the normal lifetime of pads will corrode and fail before the pads wear out. FWIW, in 5 years, replaced my wiper blades, tires, and washer fluid and that's it.
- maerF0x0 4y agoBrake pad and tire are extremely user dependent (in same car model). How you drive dictates their wear (faster braking/cornering == faster wear) But in most (all?) EVs you have regenerative braking that reduces the load on the brake pads, so they last longer. You can kinda do the same in an ICE by coasting down but it takes a lot more preplanning and annoys impatient people behind you.
- seydor 4y agoOnly 22?
- wongarsu 4y ago33% less labor time and 28% less spent on parts = 22% lower cost. Maybe the one garage mentioned that charges more for labor when it's an EV isn't the exception.
- ok123456 4y agoThere's surivivership bias built into this sort of analysis: If a repair costs more than the residual value of the car (e.g., like a battery pack or electric motor) or if it's impossible to get replacement parts, then it won't be reported as a cost since the work isn't done.
- wefarrell 4y agoGiven the complexity of an ICE (engine, transmission, exhaust system, cooling system, etc...) I think this would work against ICEs more than EVs.
- kube-system 4y agoICE is complex, but the parts are smaller, cheaper, and have a very mature repair ecosystem.
- donatj 4y agoThis. In cheaper vehicles you can replace the entire drivetrain engine included for a couple grand.
- kube-system 4y agoOr rather, many people replace a dozen cheaper parts over a period of time.
- aunty_helen 4y agoI would much prefer my chances at getting ev bearings than gearbox bearings for an ice. The simplicity of Evs can’t be denied on serviceability. The only argument comes down to ignorance.
- kube-system 4y agoBearings are pretty much industrial jellybeans. The biggest difference between the two is that an ICE would have many more of them.
- Grim-444 4y agoIs there any link to the study/data backing up these claims? I spent a while googling and trying to find it myself and all I found was a bunch of copy+paste articles all giving the same summary.
- hatware 4y agoYou used to buy a car to tinker. It's an appliance.
- mortehu 4y agoFor battery electric vehicles there's also the hidden savings of having the technician coming to your home, which I believe is far more prevalent for BEV than ICE.
- neon_electro 4y agoMy experience of owning 2 EVs (2013 Nissan Leaf and then 2018 Chevy Bolt EV), the Leaf for 2.5 years/22k miles and the Bolt for 4 years/48k miles: Never took the Leaf to a shop for "official maintenance" other than an a general evaluation early on. With the Bolt, I never had any issues during my ownership that took my vehicle offline/out of my hands. I replaced all four tires once, at my own expense, because I wanted a different tradeoff from the OEM tire choice. I took it to the shop once for a tire rotation/cabin air filter replacement at a regular service interval, and was about to do so a second time when I totaled the car this past Memorial Day weekend. All told, I'm still totally unfamiliar with anyone visiting my home for any kind of automotive service.
- peoplefromibiza 4y agoJust a few observations > It also uncovered that the parts component of a BEV job is typically 28% cheaper than an ICE car due to them having fewer working parts, with brake wear far lower Not sure if comparing 850,000 fleet cars and vans with high end EVs (a majority of EVs in UK are still high end cars) it's a fair comparison. Of course brake wear on vans is going to be an order of magnitude worse than a Tesla or a Porsche Taycan, with their oversized braking systems. > But Fleet Assist, which has provided the analysis, warns that the SMR price reductions are not guaranteed in the longer term due to the rising operating costs of garages. it's not clear why that should make a difference between ICE and EV. > “Garages are already starting to come to terms with how EVs will impact their servicing revenues and workshop traffic in the longer term. We may see more garages looking at ways to address how the paradigm shift of BEV aftersales is going to challenge their service provision and fees they charge,” So basically, sounds like there is still more "fluff work" that garages can do nowadays on ICE cars to make more money and are not ready to do the same for EVs yet. But the day when they'll invent the (unnecessary) "you absolutely need a change of oil" or "break pads are gone, we have to change them" for EVs is just around the corner.
- readams 4y agoBrake wear is lower because of regenerative braking. In my car I barely use the brakes at all
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago> Brake wear is lower because of regenerative braking that's specifically why I've mentioned "high end cars". Most hybrid cars use it too. Most high end ABS systems are way more gentle on the brake pads than a 20 years old Ford Transit van. > In my car I barely use the brakes at all that's what most good drivers have been doing in the past 50 years. Especially on manual.
- guardiangod 4y agoJust because a car is high-end doesn't mean it will have less repairs. In fact, the opposite is true.
- SulphurSmell 4y agoI don't really doubt the numbers...in fact, I thought them a bit low. My feeling is that this will really change the automotive landscape for the overall lifecycle of a car. Seems to me that the dealership currently doesn't worry too much about immediate margin on a new car. They know that that car will come back to them for in-warranty service (which the dealer bills back to the manufacturer) and after-warranty service (loyal customers afraid to go to a less expensive garage). In a nutshell, all the real money is the recurring revenue for service. EVs will require less service...so I'm thinking the dealer will just keep their margin higher up front to make sure they don't lose after the sale. I would bet the dealers would rather sell some sort of EV that needs frequent/predictable/reasonable service...thus supporting the annuity model that has existed for decades. What to do? Build super high quality EVs that need almost no maintenance? Then you don't need that expensive dealer network. But consumers want that dealer to visit and complain to when things don't work...and that costs money. In the end, I think consumers will need to realize that their overall experience and expectations of car ownership are in for a big shake up over the next few years.
- stephendause 4y agoDo you have data for the comparison of profits from sales to service? I never get my vehicle serviced at a dealer. I don't know what percentage of people do, but that would play a big factor in this analysis.
- SulphurSmell 4y agoHere's a link https://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/where-does-the-car-dealer-make-money.html https://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/where-does-the-car-dealer... FTA: "National Automobile Dealers Association (NADA), the new-vehicle department of a car dealership accounts for about 58% of a dealership's total sales but less than 26% of a dealership's total gross profit. " "So where does the majority of a dealership's profit come from? It's not from car sales, at least not directly. It's from the service and parts department, which accounts for the other 49.6% of the dealership's gross profits, according to NADA" My comment was based on what I have been told by people in the business. They all want to get cars out the door...and raw counts are more important than margins on each. I would say that any new car under warranty will absolutely be serviced at the dealer. After that? Agreed...people will find alternatives. Mind you, in my experience, only "car people" tend to find non-dealer service...many feel "safer" at the dealer. I am told that the manufacturers of the cars make the most profit on a new vehicle sale...not the dealer. This is also why the lease/used market is so attractive to dealers.
- moistly 4y agoHave owned a Mazda3 for the past fifteen years. Maintenance costs have been negligible. 22% less than negligible is… negligible. Saving a few hundred dollars over the course of fifteen years by buying a car that’s tens of thousands of dollars more expensive doesn’t make sense. The fuel savings might make up the difference, though. Silly to highlight maintenance expenses when fuel costs are an order of magnitude greater.
- stunt 4y agoI wanted to say the same. Lexus, 8 years, 115000km, and (knock on wood) never even opened the bonnet. I only replaced tires. I still have to pay the annual service, but nothing ever broke. The Lexus service takes care of filters, oil, and scheduled replacements when it's due. One of the milestones was 100000 km mark and service was a bit more expensive. Funny because I even never had to refill the wiper fluid. They refill it with the annual service and apparently I don't use it enough to empty it before the next service.
- alkonaut 4y agoThat’s disappointing, I was hoping it would be 50% or even better. Initially it’s going to be just the oil changes that you save on, but over say 10 years I’d expect not having to change cam belts etc would bring the advantage further to EVs. On the other hand, after 10 years the higher cost of EV tires will probably bring the cost balance back (although not usually considered a service cost)