14 ms·
There is lots of talk going around TikTok, especially now geopolitics has been added to this kind of discussion due to ongoing tensions between two giants. Inst
by nixcraft 4y ago
There is lots of talk going around TikTok, especially now geopolitics has been added to this kind of discussion due to ongoing tensions between two giants. Instead of banning or removing the TikTok app, how about the US government put a firm privacy policy that forbids TikTok, Microsoft, Apple, Facebook, Twitter and co from collecting excessive data on users? That would be a better solution, IMHO. Let users download and use whatever app they want but keep a firm privacy policy. But, of course, geopolitics will take over, so I have ZERO hope for a tight privacy policy for all apps.
Similarly, there is no such thing as a backdoor in apps for good guys (3 letter agencies) vs bad guys. Just make one rule for all. Otherwise, it is all grey areas open to abuse. Also, it is not just geopolitics; big social media like YouTube, Insta, FB and others face colossal competition from TikTok. As a result, they are losing users to TikTok. So they want this kind of ban (emphasis mine ), at least they won't object to it, and it is a slippery slope.
- washadjeffmad 4y agoYou may have noticed this from the attempts or lack thereof over the past two decades to regulate tech to the benefit of everyday people. This is because Congress has been petrified of "breaking Google". It is currently why so much of SV now sits on the POTUS's cabinet. No one knows the totality of how and where these modern day digital East India companies truly operate, and there will never be legislation that broadly protects citizen privacy like in the EU because of it.
- nivenkos 4y agoYeah, this sort of protectionist interference in the name of "security" isn't new - look at Boeing.
- MomoXenosaga 4y agoNo American pundits and politicians just hate TikTok because it is not a US corporation.
- ammo1662 4y agoTheir business is built on top of collecting and selling users' data. Why will the politicians sponsored by them try to establish a policy to break their own business?
- mtrycz2 4y agoThey could not even exist without harvesting data - it is their business model. Unfortunately, the only option is to just leave.
- MichaelCollins 4y ago> how about the US government put a firm privacy policy that forbids TikTok, [...] from collecting excessive data on users? This wouldn't address the way the CCP can use TikTok for subversion of America, vis-a-vis foreign election interference by Russia on social media in 2016. > Microsoft, Apple, Facebook, Twitter and co The American government has more options with American corporations, these companies aren't intrinsically linked to foreign governments in the way that TikTok is to the CCP. However, the EU should probably kick these American social media companies out of the EU.
- fxtentacle 4y agoAll of them to to great lengths to ensure Taiwan isn't accidentally mentioned as being a country.
- MichaelCollins 4y agoAs does the American government, unfortunately. I hope this period of appeasement is soon coming to an end.
- nextos 4y ago> [...] how about the US government put a firm privacy policy that forbids TikTok, Microsoft, Apple, Facebook, Twitter and co from collecting excessive data on users And also a policy that forbids UX addictive-by-design patterns to induce bad habits.
- throwawaylinux 4y agoHow exactly would you word or enforce such a policy? What is a "bad habit"? Is fun or happiness addictive? Why might the puritan nanny state approach work better here than with alcohol, drugs, or abortion?
- Teever 4y agoYou hire the same kinds of people that these companies hire to design their products to be addictive and then you draft legislation banning the things that they say are addictive.
- withinboredom 4y agoA better solution would be to teach how to get out of addiction and treat it more effectively vs banning. Banning only makes the addiction features more taboo and thus even more addictive. See prohibition, 1920-1930.
- Teever 4y agoDo you really foresee a future where addictive aspects of social media are banned and the descendents of moonshiners are setting up servers next to rusted out stills in abandoned shacks in the Kentucky mountains so that people can get their doom scrolling fix over Tor? Now that I reread that, I think it's entirely possible. Man the future is weird.
- BitwiseFool 4y ago>"A better solution would be to teach how to get out of addiction" It's hard to say no to the idea of more education, but I believe this is a non impactful solution. We've been teaching about the dangers of alcohol, tobacco, illicit drugs, unhealthy food, and much more for decades - if not generations. It only goes so far. I don't believe most addicts are addicted because of ignorance or a lack of rationality. I believe the primary driver is biological rather than a lack of knowing better.
- jollybean 4y agoIt'd be practically impossible to enforce the 'privacy' concerns, because the data is so vast and accessible to CCP entities employed by ByteDance. I mean, they literally pay CCP members to promote government policy agenda within the company. As for trade - FB, Google etc. - none of it is even allowed in China. So purely from a 'trade parity' basis, Chinese social apps simply should not be allowed in the US. If we can't have apps 'there' then our policy should be 'tit for tat' and do the same thing our side.
- angio 4y agoTechnically US companies are allowed in China as long as they follow the local regulations (which probably involves following Chinese National Security Letters etc). What OP proposes and the EU is doing is to allow anyone in the market as long as they follow strong privacy laws. Existing apps can defend themselves in court and only get banned after a sentence from a judge.
- vorpalhex 4y agoThe specific regulation is having a Chinese Communist Party member on the board and having the owner be a Chinese citizen.
- simion314 4y ago>It'd be practically impossible to enforce the 'privacy' concerns, But US would first need a law, now you just surrendered before you even tried. It could be possible to enforce it, you find an illegal action you slap them with a fine, find a new infraction slap them again and again. Do I need to spend my time thinking for americans? Make a law so Tik Tok keeps US people data in US, force them to have US employees and offer a bounty to this employees to report illegal stuff. The only downside is that most US citizens and companies will have no choice then to accept EU privacy laws as really good and valid (but I am sure the world can find soem other laws to make fun off, like something about bananas shape).
- nonrandomstring 4y ago> Just make one rule for all. This is the correct solution of winning the moral high ground. What Russia has been doing for several decades (see Yuri Bezmenov [1]) is leveraging the "west's" inner discontent. Every time a Watergate or Snowden happens it's a gift to them. It exposes our 'hypocrisy', and failure to live up to our own democratic standards. That fuels the narrative of the western nations as corrupt. We're in a bind because the kind of medicine that would fight the even more sophisticated Chinese tactics now would also hurt our own corporations and agencies. But we must take it. Targeted advertising and domestic surveillance must go if our values are to survive in the world. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Bezmenov https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Bezmenov
- eunos 4y agoIt's easy to avoid the Bezmenov's "trap" (for a lack of better words). Avoid moralizing issues especially if it doesnt directly affect your core interests. Also acknowledge that indeed all nations do have skeleton in their cupboards, let's keep them hidden.
- fxtentacle 4y ago
- nonrandomstring 4y agoEverything you say is true. But it's not an argument. Failing to live up to all your stated values in past is not a reason to give up on then for all time.
- headsoup 4y agoI think the argument is that there is not so much difference in result at the end, even though the projected image appears opposite.
- Jochim 4y agoIt's not about giving up on them. It's about being willing to accept that you haven't lived up to those values and make the changes necessary to uphold them. While still in the wrong, how seriously should China or Russia take the country that lead the invasion and occupation of Iraq/Afghanistan for 20 odd years when it offers it's condemnation of their own ambitions? To be frank, how can we expect anyone to take our condemnation seriously when we are currently doing the same things or have let the same things go unpunished in recent memory. We refuse to hold our own torturers and war criminals to proper account.
- VoodooJuJu 4y ago>how about the US government put a firm privacy policy that forbids TikTok, Microsoft, Apple, Facebook, Twitter and co from collecting excessive data on users Because the U.S. has access to and therefore benefits from the data that these companies collect. The exception on that list is TikTok - the U.S. can't access that data, but their rival can. That's why they're keen on banning it.
- LatteLazy 4y agoRespectfully... Does anyone really think the NSA are not able to access Tiktok? Or that Chinese equivalent orgs are not able to access Facebook etc? Really? This whole thing is just the cultural side of people pushing a new cold war for self serving purposes (increase my budget, grant me more powers, buy my newspaper etc). I'm not saying China is great, I'm just saying this seems very much like a made up issue to me.
- throwaway0a5e 4y agoEveryone is hacking everyone. For true matters of intelligence gathering and national security physical location is no serious object. If it's on a server it's accessible to us, the Russians, the Chinese, etc. etc, basically public. But, and this is a thicc but, the US government and its various enforcement arms really like having a domestic data pile because they can trawl through it some veneer of legal legitimacy. Google's data is only a rubber stamp warrant away and that data can then be used in court. The same is not true for offshore providers like Tiktok. Sure they could probably get access if it's in a friendly country but that's a much higher more expensive bar. Basically the discussion we're having about Tiktok is the discussion we'd be having about all these data haystacks if it weren't for the fact that there are powerful government interests that like the domestic haystacks.
- KaoruAoiShiho 4y agoTikTok is already a NATO propaganda app anyway. https://archive.ph/qYSsL https://archive.ph/qYSsL
- sebow 4y ago> how about the US government put a firm privacy policy that forbids TikTok, Microsoft, Apple, Facebook, Twitter and co from collecting excessive data on users? That would be a better solution, IMHO. Something that frankly won't happen since that would put those companies out of business. Not to mention actual collusion between US gov and some of those corporations (all of them depending on the subject: from military to political data mining). Collectively they have more influence than the US government,so even assuming that the politicians would correctly try to protect the citizens from what are de facto surveillance machines it would be a big stretch. Again, that would actually go against their interests, so let's not hold our breaths on this. Hate to dig up old skeletons, but if most of the tech consumers (not even all the knowledgeable and principled individuals, let alone the mass of users) stood by Snowden & Assange, what kind of chance do we stand now? Some of the criticisms of Snowden(undermining US influence thus helping China) let's say was "half-tolerable", but with TikTok (which is de facto China's spying & "hypnotizing" tool in the west) we have no excuse of tolerating that here. People brushed it off when Trump said it, but he was right.You need to clean house with external players(Tiktok) before you move on towards harder, "more legitimate" opponents(FB,etc), which were dying anyways.
- madeofpalk 4y agoDoes tiktok actually collect that much (valuable) information? It seems all the scaremongering people spread (rightfully or not) is around it's moderation and attempts to steer discourse and change opinions to pro-china?
- dailykoder 4y agoYes, they basically collect everything.
- dm33tri 4y agoYeah to me seems they rather buy data, so in the app I see ads about things things I've looked for somewhere else. Never seen it other way around, but maybe it is more subtle - YouTube Shorts and TikTok have a huge overlap in content for me, but does it mean YouTube buys my data from TikTok?
- mistermann 4y agoI think the real concern that isn't being said out loud is that it's fear of TikTok's ability to distribute information, and that the US government doesn't have management under their thumb.
- KennyBlanken 4y agoIt's far worse than just data collection. At least at one point in time Tiktok's client was disassembled enough to reveal that it had a function to download an unsigned binary blob and run it on the device. They're able to bypass app store protections completely...
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- Aunche 4y agoI honestly don't see a reason for the US not ban TikTok for arbitrary bullshit reasons, simply because China does the same sort of bullshit for American internet companies. Foreign websites often get mysteriously throttled, which encourages people to use their domestic alternatives. The iTunes store was banned, despite following all their censorship rules. They even hacked Google.
- lghh 4y agoI, on the other hand, don't see a reason to ban TikTok. Just because China does something doesn't mean the US has to do the same thing.
- panda_2134 4y agoChinese here. While I can confirm a lot of these sites are banned for whatever reasons, iTunes is not. Check it yourself with https://ping.pe https://ping.pe .
- Aunche 4y agoSorry. I meant iTunes Books and iTunes Movies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_the_iTunes_Store https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_the_iTunes_Store
- yibg 4y agoI don't think "china does it" is a good reason for the US to do it. There are lots of things China does that we don't want to.
- Aunche 4y agoI'm not advocating censorship for censorship sake. The problem I have is with asymmetric rules regarding commerce. If China wants to have free access to US dollars, they need to allow us to have equally free access to their RMB.
- lumost 4y agoHow would the US possibly enforce this law on tik tok? At the end of the day, if a regulator can’t investigate, then they can’t enforce. What’s to stop tik tok from providing lip service then doing the opposite?
- srcreigh 4y agoBanning the app may be the only way.
- randomdata 4y agoTikTok is feared not because of privacy, but because it shows China can do tech too. America placed its economic bets on being a tech superpower and that is now under threat. Restricting American companies in the same way would only serve to also diminish tech in the US.
- ethanbond 4y agoEh, not really. There have been plenty of perfectly functional apps working in China for a long time. Makes sense that people are worried about feeding video streams, geolocation data, facial recognition data, social network data, etc. to our adversary who uses the very same data sources to manipulate and control its own population.
- cma 4y agoWasn't Eric Schmidt working for the department of defense while pushing Google+ for other countries? Letting most Silicon Valley-style platform stuff into your country is a bit crazy: why would you want network lock-in effects to mean 30% of taxi revenue or whatever flows back to the US, or that a US AI matchmakes your dating population and drains money out of the country having people pay to get more swipes than each other in a zero-sum competition? For most countries Silicon Valley-style companies with strong moats aren't entering in and helping with comparative advantage: they are just a taxation that goes overseas, capturing people through failures of collective action causing inability to shift platforms when something competitive comes along.
- ethanbond 4y agoI don’t blame other countries for banning American information providing/gathering services either.
- randomdata 4y ago> There have been plenty of perfectly functional apps working in China for a long time. But, for the most part, they've seen little fanfare outside of China. Even the breakouts, like Alibaba and WeChat, have really only succeeded where they are able to bridge connections with China. They hadn't proven they can develop software for a wide audience. TikTok changed the landscape. TikTok is an app that could have come straight out of Silicon Valley and is successfully going head to head with American players on their own turf.
- JasserInicide 4y agofrom collecting excessive data on users Nothing's going to happen for at least a generation. Boomers/Gen Xers in power need to die off, they don't/refuse to understand the Internet.
- taf2 4y agoWhich law will be used to reveal the encrypted traffic between the app and server was sending personal data to be used in influence campaigns by the CCP?
- nonameiguess 4y agoI don't want to personally malign you and I'm not gonna downvote, but it's irritating to me that this is currently the top comment. I noticed exactly the same thing yesterday where a top comment was explicitly commenting on a completely different article from the one in the link that the commenter had read the week prior about a similar topic. What you wrote here has nothing to do with the linked article. The article doesn't discuss what American government policy is or should be toward TikTok. It's entirely about the business implications of Facebook potentially losing a competitive edge from its social graph if it adopts TikTok's content model that does not use a social graph. You've hijacked that topic to talk about a completely different and more divisive topic du jour that is already discussed every other time TikTok comes up.
- angryasian 4y agoagree, I wish this discussion was less about politics and more of the impact on social media
- dahfizz 4y agoAnd what do you do when tik tok violates the privacy policy? You're not changing the geopolitics at all.
- misterprime 4y agoI generally like this, but there's another risk to keep in mind: Purposefully over-regulating to such a degree that only the existing behemoths can survive and no startup could reasonably navigate the costly labyrinth of policies in that sector. I think California has been doing OK recently in creating tiers of companies based on employee size and applying varying degrees of requirements based on that.
- headsupftw 4y agoThis top comment is odd, in the sense that the article does not talk about TikTok's privacy and/or geopolitics debacles at all, even though the title "poison pill" might lead some users who didn't read the article to think it refers to TikTok's violation of privacy, or it being created and controlled by an Internet giant based in Communist China, or something along these lines. The "poison pill" in the title actually refers to TikTok's recommendation model that disregards (or at least de-weights) social graph, versus Facebook/Instagram's approach.
- greenthrow 4y agoHow on earth would you enforce such a law on a company headquartered in China?
- unityByFreedom 4y agoOk, what about moderation? You won't find viral videos about Xinjiang or China's organ "donor" program on TikTok and that seems more problematic.