26 ms·

Spain will introduce free train travel

615 points by donohoe 4y ago

Bostonian 4y ago
Train travel may consume less energy than car travel, but it is still energy intensive, so I doubt this makes sense if reducing CO2 emissions is the goal.
- Yacoby 4y ago
  The goal is to help with the cost of living issues (in part caused by high gas costs) and I think reducing CO2 is secondary. Additionally I suspect trains (at least electric ones) have far less C02 emissions than cars. I'm not sure how electrified Spains rail is.
  - Arnt 4y ago
    Your suspicion is correct, under conditions that generally apply. Trains on level ground have extremely low rolling resistance. This means that if you have enough train sets for peak service, running the train sets all day often makes sense, because the additional cost (in terms of CO₂) of operating a train set for an additional hour is so low. It also means that adding passengers to a half-full train is practically free (again, in CO₂).
  - belter 4y ago
    "63.7% of the kilometers of railway lines managed by Adif and Adif AV are electrified. In addition, 83% of train-km is done by electric trains." "Spain opts for massive electricity savings by using railway tech" https://www.banenor.no/en/startpage1/News/spain-opts-for-massive-electricity-savings-by-using-railway-tech/ https://www.banenor.no/en/startpage1/News/spain-opts-for-mas... "Percentage of the railway lines in use in Europe in 2019 which were electrified, by country" https://www.statista.com/statistics/451522/share-of-the-rail-network-which-is-electrified-in-europe/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/451522/share-of-the-rail...
  - lucb1e 4y ago
    > at least electric ones Diesel trains are better than diesel cars. Carrying a 1000 kg shell for an average of 1.something persons with its own engine and air resistance, and needing to be able to stop in a few hundred meters even at top speed, is less efficient than having one engine and one front side to push air out of the way and low rolling resistance for transporting many people, if you compare equal fuel sources. But then cars are more flexible because you can take your portable shell anywhere at any time, not like the train. Then again, I like train rides (especially the Arriva trains between Sittard and Roermond are super comfy). There's a future for both, I'd say as someone who takes the bus and train at every opportunity (including for daily commute) but still finds himself in a car regularly.
- igorkraw 4y ago
  On top of what sibling comment said, trains will go anyway, so increasing occupancy means less total carbon since otherwise you'd have train+car. And for some people, this might mean not taking the plane, although I'm unsure about the fraction.
- dagurp 4y ago
  Do you have any reason to doubt that?
- nodja 4y ago
  If the train is free people will choose it more often than driving or taking a uber/cab thus saving on CO2 since the train would've been running whether it's full or empty.
  - gernb 4y ago
    it has more to do if the trains are nice, clean, safe, on time, plentiful, convenient that price compared to uber
    - smileysteve 4y ago
      India has joined the chatm There are multiple aspects depending on what you're trying to accomplish. Your list is great if the target market is upper middle class (great for voters and private interest groups). Convenient and plentiful are really the ones that matter for economic mobility (person that can't get afford car, gas,insurance)
  - severino 4y ago
    On the other hand, if this makes that the trains go full, people already using it may go back to driving or taking a ubar/cab.
    - californical 4y ago
      “Nobody ever goes there anymore, it’s way too crowded!” Really though, how is this an issue? A few people might not use trains anymore because they are packed full of new people? The net result is more people using trains
      - severino 4y ago
        In Spain, public transportation already suffers from many problems. And this can only make it worse, because guess what? The government isn't spending a single cent in improving our network, it's only going to allow people to board for free. And I don't think anybody already using his car will now use the train, because despite being "free" now, it's not going to be better than using your own car. But you're right, I don't think anybody using the train will switch to the car again, because fortunately, this will only last until December. And it won't start until September, because the government didn't want the tourists to benefit from this measure.
- toiletfuneral 4y ago
  Maybe true but still a bad take. Reducing the surface area of a problem like this makes its much easier to iterate on energy efficiencies than having millions of cars to replace periodically all with variable lifespans
- throw827474737 4y ago
  The results of Germany's 9€ ticket were profound - where it was more meant socially due to rising fuel prices, it had tremendous impact even on traffic jams, and people that were not expected to switched over. As public transport is usually publicly founded and/or subsidized, it also just makes sense to make it free for the public. Sure, the riches didn't like their Sylt getting invaded by Punks ... but except that I think your fear is unfounded, people don't travel just for fun, except for vacation/recreation, and it is much unfairer if the poor family cannot even do that, while better of people can do anything in their megavan (or to the extreme, in their private jet). Bostonian sounds like Boston ;), is it really so ingrained in the US that everything free or social must be bad? Some kind of mobility is imo kind of basic right, and it wouldn't hurt us richer nations to more support it. (just to make it clear, saying as someone who likely more pays for it than having any use).
  - School-Cotton 4y ago
    > is it really so ingrained in the US that everything free or social must be bad? It’s not “the US” as a whole, it’s one particular ideology within the US, but yes, it’s somewhat more common of a view than in Germany.
    - SequoiaHope 4y ago
      One could argue that neoliberalism has been the dominant ideology in the USA for both parties since Ronald Reagan. Democrats and Republicans simply argue about whether the government should do very little or nothing at all. (Unless they are providing protection to big business, and then the government springs in to action.)
      - School-Cotton 4y ago
        According to Wikipedia, the total government budget in the US is around $20k per capita[0] which is on par with some very rich European countries like Germany and France. The problem in the US is extreme waste/inefficiency and unequal access, not lack of spending. By the way, neoliberalism is the dominant ideology in most countries now, not just the US. But neoliberalism doesn’t mean “no state spending”; that would be an exaggerated caricature. What you’re describing is more like libertarianism (in the US sense of the term) which indeed is rather unique to the US, but not the dominant ideology. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_government_budget_per_capita https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_governm...
- bertil 4y ago
  Train transport is far less, about seven times less, intensive per passenger than cars. Trains allow the production of CO2 to be centralised into a few power plants, owned by a handful of companies that are easy to monitor, regulate, and put around a table to coerce into emission-free solutions. Spain’s electricity carbon intensity is expected to fall from 167 g/kWh in 2020 to 37 g/kWh in 2050 thanks to the exceptional potential of all types of solar and abundant opportunities for wind farms. If you don’t believe me, plot the numbers yourself: train impact will literally be the width of your pen.
- standardUser 4y ago
  That's an staggeringly ignorant statement. Trains produce less CO2 per passenger mile than virtually any other form of transportation.
AdrianB1 4y ago
- DRW_ 4y ago
  With this correction, are you under the impression that people are assuming there's no cost to running trains now?
  - hardwaregeek 4y ago
    Exactly. In what world is this correction necessary?
    - robertlagrant 4y ago
      In this one. People often think things are free when they're actually paid for by other people's taxes or inflation.
      - DRW_ 4y ago
        Who thinks that except maybe some very small, very ignorant and insignificant minority of people? I don't understand why people feel the need to point this out - everyone already knows this.
        mdp2021 4y ago
        I will raise an exception to the use of '«know»', which is not really defined in terms of "actually discriminate" vs "being able to discriminate". Meaning: It is not that "people know that money does not come from cornucopiae": it is more that they are supposed not to hold the idea. Or: it should be implicit knowledge, not explicit. Or: you do not need to think about it to avoid dreaming that "streets are maintained by volunteers" (for lack of more absurd insanities at hand). Or: it's mental hygiene not to be delirious and work through a "yes/no" system - you are supposed to have plentiful buffers that avoid you holding weak ideas... Edit: or, if really that is something you find in society, you have a big elephant in the room (education) with priority over trains and everything.
baggy_trough 4y ago
Unless there's some kind of enforcement mechanism, free public transit becomes the abode of the homeless.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Should not be an issue in Europe. Usually homeless people have other options than sleeping in public transport here.
  - Ferrotin 4y ago
    It helps that they have less civil rights in Europe. Or less civil liberties. In America the state is very restricted in how it can deal with the homeless.
    - mdp2021 4y ago
      Please explain. You may give the idea Europe can deal with the problem through some unclear authoritarian action.
      - Ferrotin 4y ago
        The U.S., specially certain states, has what other countries would call extreme limits on its ability to deal with mentally ill vagrants. An inability to involuntarily institutionalize them, or even throw out the stuff they abandon on the sidewalk. It isn’t from lack of money spent on these people. So you see them riding the BART in San Francisco, making a nuisance of themselves, while also, the city spends a ton of money and has homeless shelters. Also, the basic ability of police to hassle people is less.
    - baggachipz 4y ago
      Social safety net == "less civil rights' and "less civil liberties"? Wow, I'd love to hear how one could ever arrive at that conclusion.
    - andrewaylett 4y ago
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
The difference between pennies and free is substantial. For tourists, navigating each system’s ticketing system is a pain. Even as a New Yorker, the antiquated paper mechanisms of the AirTrain are often enough to nudge me into a car.
- deleted 4y ago
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- ghaff 4y ago
  As someone who was traveling a lot pre-pandemic and does tend to take public transit when there are good options available--I am always shocked at just how bad so many ticketing systems are for someone who is unfamiliar, may very well be tired/stressed, and may not even speak the language. It's not even just the ticketing. It can also be which piece of paper goes into the turnstile etc.--while the people lined up behind you are getting increasingly annoyed. Heck, after not using for quite a while, the contactless ticketing in my home-ish city wouldn't work for me for unclear reasons when I tried to take the subway and I ended buying a new card.
  - kwhitefoot 4y ago
    Every bus company that I have used in recent years (UK, Norway) has an app that allows for route planning and buying tickets. In many cases it is an umbrella app that covers all transport in a given region. So if you have a smartphone there is no paper ticket.
    - ghaff 4y ago
      So as someone who has just arrived you only need to download an app somehow and register with it.
      - kwhitefoot 4y ago
        That can be a nuisance if you don't have a roaming subscription on your mobile I agree and you do need a smartphone. But you only need to find somewhere where there is wifi to do the download and then register a credit or debit card with the app. Most stations, buses, and trains have wifi.
deleted 4y ago
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franciscop 4y ago
I live in Tokyo now, but I'm from Valencia, Spain. I knew the train there was bad when the local subway network, called "metrovalencia", was known locally as "metrovalenshit" (there's even a twitter @metrovalenshit), but compared to other cities or specially Tokyo it's like a toy. In here (Tokyo) they make major station changes without even disrupting traffic[1], the only time traffic is disrupted meaningfully is when there's a major earthquake/typhoon. Back in Valencia, the gvmt started building a new line, but then they abandoned it for over a decade. In some weekends with strong rains it floods. At least we got to see really beautiful pictures when someone entered and navigated with a boat! Multiple times across the years[2][3]. If you go a bit more local (smaller towns) and want to take a bus that is scheduled every 20 min, you go to the bus stop and hope that one will come within the next hour. We had to help a foreigner once that was gonna miss her flight since she was waiting for over an hour with no sight of a bus. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BYW4YYqG5A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BYW4YYqG5A [2] https://web.archive.org/web/20130111154819/http://www.goodfellasmagazine.com/laluzalfinal/vivo-navegando/ https://web.archive.org/web/20130111154819/http://www.goodfe... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=022pgffEy6A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=022pgffEy6A
- Scarbutt 4y ago
  Most countries are going to be bad when compared to Japan. Japan is also the third largest economy.
  - TaylorAlexander 4y ago
    Yeah I’m in the USA just jealous that they have trains in Spain.
    - Aperocky 4y ago
      Interstate is marvelous. US is too big and too sparsely populated both on a large scale and small scale for trains like Europe, Japan and China. There's a part where no one talk about, and that's the infrastructure within the city are not conducive to trains. People get to a train station and they need to get around and unless you're talking about New York they really just need another car. This in comparison to European and Asian cities where your friend can just post you an address and you can use public transit all the way to the last block.
hardwaregeek 4y ago
Free or extremely cheap transportation is a fascinating development. I always found it odd that the rhetoric around transportation was that it should make money. We don't expect other parts of the government to turn a profit. Why transportation? If Amtrak went that direction and made its transportation close to free, I wonder if we'd see more people try it out. Maybe it'd gain some popularity and we could finally see a shift away from cars. Public transportation is a difficult process because until the money is spent and the line is there, people are not sold. Whereas with cars, even if a highway is not built, people still have a car by default. Therefore the government needs to float money, either in infrastructure or in subsidized fares. At least subsidized fares is a little less binary than infrastructure.
- ghaff 4y ago
  >If Amtrak went that direction and made its transportation close to free, I wonder if we'd see more people try it out. On the Northeast Corridor it could change the driving equation for couples and families. BUT Amtrak on the Northeast Corridor already runs at pretty high utilization. In fact, I believe there are expansion projects underway.
  - balderdash 4y ago
    I was under the impression that the northeast corridor is actually profitable on its own, and keeps the rest of the system from losing even more money
    - ghaff 4y ago
      That too. Yes. To a first approximation Amtrak makes a fair bit of money on the Northeast Corridor which is then loses it pretty much everywhere else in the country. (There may be a few city pairs that are profitable but not many.)
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > I always found it odd that the rhetoric around transportation was that it should make money. We don't expect other parts of the government to turn a profit. While it shows a deep misunderstanding of the concept of a public service, there are lots of other parts of government we do expect to be self-sustaining on user fees. Like the Postal Service.
dplesca 4y ago
I visited Berlin this summer and Germany has a 9 euro ticket that gives you unlimited travel on local/regional transport services during until the end of the calendar month. The ticket can be bought only throughout the summer months. For a tourist that was in town only for a few days, it was just amazing, no worries when taking any public transport for ticket zones, right tickets or time of availability. I imagine it was great for commuters too, price-wise at the very least. To me it seems like a great idea, honestly, I'm just not sure what the _real_ costs were and how financially viable such a measure would be over the long term.
- ratww 4y ago
  I'm also a big fan! > The ticket can be bought only throughout the summer months. The ticket is a new thing, by the way. The reason it's only available in "summer months" is because they haven't finished thinking about how it's gonna be after that. However the transport companies already manifested interest in continuing with the ticket for €69 [1]. Sure, not €9 but still progress. Some parties recently suggested €365 per year. Both are still a great price IMO considering I used to pay €40 a month (€63 in total, my company pays the rest), for a ticket that only covered Berlin! [1] https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/verbraucher/69-euro-ticket-103.html https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/verbraucher/69-euro-tic... [2] https://www.iamexpat.de/expat-info/german-expat-news/left-calls-nationwide-365-euro-ticket-follow-9-euro-ticket-2023 https://www.iamexpat.de/expat-info/german-expat-news/left-ca...
  - solarkraft 4y ago
    I'm not sure I'd pay 70€ a month, but 30€/month would be attractive. 70€ or more would totally be attractive if the service was actually of good quality.
    - ratww 4y ago
      Makes total sense to me. I personally would probably pay the €69 if my employer paid a part, since I already pay €40 / €63 for Berlin, which I consider a good deal. But for people that have a car and tourists €70 is indeed a bit steep.
odiroot 4y ago
Living in England, I don't even dream about having free travel. But having very affordable local trains and buses would be good enough. And it's quite feasible too.
Daveenjay 4y ago
Swiss trains are where it’s at. Check this video from Not just bikes channel https://youtu.be/muPcHs-E4qc https://youtu.be/muPcHs-E4qc
- ssl232 4y ago
  The difference is ultimately money. A while ago (early 90s?) Switzerland voted to spend lots of money on the railway network to make it work the way it does. It was discussed on HN before. The video you linked notes single tickets are expensive and most commuters get half price or free travel paid by their employers. It's still a marvel, and I'd love to have the Swiss train network in my country even if it costs the same, but definitely worth pointing out when comparing to countries who don't have the political will to spend more on their railways.
DarthNebo 4y ago
Wonder by when we will have global electric railway lines for passengers & containers
diegoholiveira 4y ago
The myth of free stuff. Love it.
- chris-orgmenta 4y ago
  I think we all have an understanding that this is through taxpayer (corporate or resident) money. Is it really a myth? Free, in this context, is implied and inferred as 'the consumer doesn't pay directly for the ticket'. There is no trickery here.
ErneX 4y ago
AFAIK this only temporarily to try to alleviate inflation, so shrug.
- escapecharacter 4y ago
  My fantasy when it comes to temporary measures like these is that no one will be willing to take the political hit to take them away.
  - ErneX 4y ago
    Problem is when they are afraid to revert this change and then the outcome is the trains getting lack of maintenance for lack of funds.
- spaniard89277 4y ago
  I'm not hoping in a train and travelling free to Madrid. This applies to ciertain rail pass used mostly by workers. The thing is that renfe has been closing many medium travel lines outside Madrid and Barcelona in exchange of HSR, so in reality everyone else is subsidizing Madrid and Barcelona...
dzonga 4y ago
I wish the UK will do this. Public transportation costs in the UK are totally criminal. yeah the trains are better than in the states. but it's totally criminal for trains to cost 30 quid from places that are like 30 mins from london. a single journey bus ticket in a small town 2.5 quid
- willyt 4y ago
  I agree. I might need to take a train to London from a regional city on Monday. Cheapest ticket is £150. Even with the high fuel prices currently it will cost me £60 to drive instead.
justinhj 4y ago
It’s not free it’s tax payer funded. If Americans hate the idea of paying for someone else’s healthcare they’re not going to like paying for their travel either
- standardUser 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - seizethecheese 4y ago
    Regardless of how inane the original point was here, your reply comes across as nasty and equally inane.
    - justinhj 4y ago
      It’s not inane at all. People love the idea of free healthcare, loan forgiveness etc, but don’t like the idea of higher taxes
  - argentinian 4y ago
    Believe it or not, at least in my country there is a lot of people that is not aware of what you mention. Educated people like HN readers do, but populist governments (like the one in my country) love to highlight all the "free" stuff that they give to the people.
    - standardUser 4y ago
      I think you think that is what other people believe because you want someone to blame or think you're better than. People aren't that stupid.
      - argentinian 4y ago
        Come to Argentina and talk to people. It's very cheap right now for foreigners. There are situations that people who was raised in an educated home in the first world find it hard to believe, but that happen anyways. Edit: I'll elaborate the point. There are people here that for more than 3 or 4 generations lived without working, being totally maintained by the state. Also a lot of that people never finish elementary school. So what happens is that they never think about where what they get comes from. It's normal for them to live 'for free' without ever considering how that works.
marsven_422 4y ago
pagutierrezn 4y ago
More remote work might be better than free mobility to reduce fuel consumption
vrnvu 4y ago
I live in Spain. To clarify. Free means more taxes.
- forinti 4y ago
  Couldn't the overall cost be lower if the government has to spend less on car infrastructure?
gumby 4y ago
It's good that it focuses on regional rail. I have never understood why drivers don't favor free public transport paid by road taxes: it would take cars off the road and make drivers' lives easier!
jmyeet 4y ago
City public transportation, at a very minimum, should be free. The NYC Subway should be free. The Tube in London should be free. The standard American response is to object on the grounds that we're subsidizing something and it's a wasteful government expenditure. You know what else that applies to? Roads. We subsidize roads and everyone is OK with that. Charging for public transport is just a regressive tax on what are typically the lowest paid workers. Regional transportation is more interesting. I'm not sure how that'll work in practice but I'm open to it.
- 202206241203 4y ago
  > We subsidize roads and everyone is OK with that. Maybe making people walk more would cut the medical expenditure.
- briga 4y ago
  Public transit is already heavily subsidized. The revenue generated by ticket sales isn’t nearly enough to cover overall expenses. That money has to come from somewhere, and unless you’re going to raise taxes that means taking away from other public services. It’s no wonder there aren’t many politicians in North America advocating free public transit
  - jmyeet 4y ago
    - Areibman 4y ago
      Gas taxes and tolls are in place to fund roads. (Though in many states it just ends up in the general fund).
      - jkarni 4y ago
        In the US, money from gas taxes is used to fund non-road-infrastructure, but conversely money from other taxes is also used on road infrastructure. It seems like on the whole gas taxes and toll do not cover roads (see eg [1]). [1] https://taxfoundation.org/gasoline-taxes-and-user-fees-pay-only-half-state-local-road-spending https://taxfoundation.org/gasoline-taxes-and-user-fees-pay-o...
TedShiller 4y ago
Spain will introduce worse trains and worse service
hgazx 4y ago
Spain is completely broke as it is. The amount of money the socialists of this country waste is astonishing.
- systemvoltage 4y ago
  Goverment dependence and eradication of normal transportation means in the name of some cause. That doesn't sound too appealing to me. The pace at which socialism on HN and progressive circles is being propelled is quite alarming. The same hand that feeds us, Capitalism, that's now being exercised in Asia to lift people out of poverty at an astonishing rate; the same hand is being bitten off by people who are enamored with the emotional appeal of socialism. It is too easy to sell socialism to public. An entire generation of people who value emotions over rational thought. Worth reading: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/21/opinion/david-brooks-capitalism.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/21/opinion/david-brooks-capi...
  - throwrqX 4y ago
    Countries like China are not capitalist. They may use some aspects of capitalist systems but the political systems there are thoroughly authoritarian communist.
    - systemvoltage 4y ago
      What are you talking about? China's economy is absolutely capitalist, even modeled in the same way (Shenzhen economic zone akin to Ireland's) with some state intervention as of late. China's adoption of capitalism, as well as post-1991 India, is the precise reason for flourishment and lifting millions of people out of poverty. https://hbr.org/2021/05/americans-dont-know-how-capitalist-china-is https://hbr.org/2021/05/americans-dont-know-how-capitalist-c... What other countries "like China"?
- Elinvynia 4y ago
  Do workers own the means of production in Spain? If not, then well, they are not socialists.
fulafel 4y ago
The traditional train pricing system seems to result in underutilization of a valuable service. Train transit system cost is dominated by fixed costs of the rail network and adding extra cars to trains is relatively cheap, so free or heavily subsidized prices that raise utilization just under congestion level are good policy.
AlwaysRock 4y ago
Pretty cool. Imagine if it was free to get around. Right now in the US we have a shit tier system. You can get to a lot of places on a mega bus for cheap. But you will hate every second of it. I wish all public transit was free as well as Amtrak's.
WalterBright 4y ago
One problem with free transit is people decide to live on it. https://mynorthwest.com/3462940/rantz-shocking-video-shows-light-rail-train-used-as-homeless-shelter/ https://mynorthwest.com/3462940/rantz-shocking-video-shows-l...
- vinnymac 4y ago
  People live on transit, even where it is not free. I am curious how many more would live on transit, if it became free.
- kwhitefoot 4y ago
  In the US.
- icelancer 4y ago
  The Light Rail isn't even free here. Of course, about 10% of passengers actually pay, 90% refuse to pay because fare enforcement is racist... or something...
- sph 4y ago
  Homelessness isn't caused by free transit.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    I didn't say it was.
fulvioterzapi 4y ago
> The new plan has some limitations. While Germany’s 9-euro ($9) passes cover all public transit except faster train services, Spain will restrict itself to regional and suburban rail services, which are not as extensive as they are in Germany. While it might be technically possible to travel across Spain using only regional trains, it would not necessarily be easy because the slower network is quite patchy. To be honest the German situation is not so different from the Spanish one. Going from Munich to Berlin with the 9-euro ticket requires from 3 to 6 changes, and from 10 to 15 hours.
- xcambar 4y ago
  I think it is expected to be somewhat complex, considering you're using regional trains only. These trains serve a different purpose compared to national lines. I would be incapable of finding an easy regional journey between major cities in the countries I can think of.
zagrebian 4y ago
Did anyone else misread it as “free time travel”?
skeeter2020 4y ago
>> It also has another clear objective: helping citizens to reduce fuel consumption as energy prices soar. Train travel may be "better" than auto, but reducing consumption by making the product free doesn't mesh with any economics I've ever studied.
victor9000 4y ago
I think the sweet spot is to charge a nominal fee as opposed to making it outright free. We tried free in Seattle and it resulted in buses full of nuisance activity such as drug use, harassment, violence, toilet use, and other unpleasantries that resulted in a lot of people avoiding transit altogether.
- kwhitefoot 4y ago
  If you have a large number of people for whom a free bus is the only reasonable shelter then that is what will happen. Most European countries deal with homelessness, drug addiction, etc., differently. So I'm not sure that the experience is transferable.
  - victor9000 4y ago
    Unfortunately the majority of Seattle's homeless population actively refuses proper shelter or assistance [1], but if that's different in Spain then I can see how it would lead to different outcomes. [1] https://www.q13fox.com/news/report-more-than-half-of-homeless-people-offered-shelter-by-city-of-seattle-say-no https://www.q13fox.com/news/report-more-than-half-of-homeles...
    - roberttod 4y ago
      I believe homeless shelters have policies such as not allowing dogs, and searching for drugs/alcohol, and they aren't always very safe and full of nits/flee infestations. The better option is to house the homeless or simply give them money. Utah enjoyed great success giving homeless houses in the 2000s.
wuschel 4y ago
Well, it is not free: someone (which means you, the Spanish tax payer) will have to cover the bill.
- eMSF 4y ago
  You are very mistaken. The ones covering the bill are the ones paying for the EU recovery fund, of which Spain was the biggest recipient.
- miki_tyler 4y ago
  You mean like free roads...?
JadoJodo 4y ago
I really wish these kinds of things would be properly framed as "subsidized", rather than "free". There are plenty of arguments for (and against) many kinds of government-provided goods/services, but the mentality that this elicits is one where the public seems to think that the government has a magical wishing well out of which anything can be summoned at no cost. For what it's worth: I think subsidized public transportation is a great use of tax dollars, and it's cool that Spain is extending this to train travel.
- mrtksn 4y ago
  Why? The car roads are called freeways when they are actually subsideways and no one seems to have a problem with that. What's special about trains?
  - JadoJodo 4y ago
    I apologize for not being explicit enough in my original comment. The issue I was attempting to raise is not with how things are named ("Freeway", "Free range", etc.), but with how they are presented. For example, "London undertaking $55 million in road projects this summer" and "London undertaking $0 in road projects this summer" are very different things.
GekkePrutser 4y ago
I'm in Spain but this thing is only for a couple of months. It's not something that's a game changer in any kind of way. It's nice but it won't change anything
- ps901 4y ago
  Maybe a quick look to Germany might help. The 9 Euro ticket was / is a great success on its own. However, the more important thing is that people are now actively talking alternatives for transportation, like cheaper / free public transport, investing and building and so on. That kind of discussion would've been unimaginable some years ago.
nutsack123 4y ago
mikaeluman 4y ago
As usual, economically irresponsible countries introduce "free" stuff. And who pays? How about the EU countries that support them? Sweden, Germany, the Netherlands, and more. Nothing is free. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/spain-leads-eu-pandemic-funding-race-obstacles-remain-2022-06-27/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/spain-leads-eu-pandemic...
- pelasaco 4y ago
  Exactly. The State cannot generate wealth itself. The State, through its representatives (aka Politicians) take people money's by force to do such stuff.. unbelievable.
- miki_tyler 4y ago
  Spain contribution/benefits to the EU budget has been pretty much flat after the latest EU expansion to the East, so no, the Spaniards are paying for this themselves. Spain was a large beneficiary of the EU budget in the past though.
dehrmann 4y ago
Normally, I worry about things be free, but beyond transit turning into mobile homeless shelters (see the "Hotel 22"), I'm not all that worried about regional transit being free. There isn't much marginal cost, it takes cars off roads, you can save by not having to do ticket sales and fare enforcement, and traveling is enough of a hassle, I don't see it inducing that much demand for transit for shorter distances.
pelasaco 4y ago
Spain's debt is 95% of their GDP. I guess who is going to pay this "free train" (Hint: Europe)

615 points by donohoe 4y ago

Train travel may consume less energy than car travel, but it is still energy intensive, so I doubt this makes sense if reducing CO2 emissions is the goal.

Yacoby 4y ago
The goal is to help with the cost of living issues (in part caused by high gas costs) and I think reducing CO2 is secondary. Additionally I suspect trains (at least electric ones) have far less C02 emissions than cars. I'm not sure how electrified Spains rail is.
- Arnt 4y ago
  Your suspicion is correct, under conditions that generally apply. Trains on level ground have extremely low rolling resistance. This means that if you have enough train sets for peak service, running the train sets all day often makes sense, because the additional cost (in terms of CO₂) of operating a train set for an additional hour is so low. It also means that adding passengers to a half-full train is practically free (again, in CO₂).
- belter 4y ago
  "63.7% of the kilometers of railway lines managed by Adif and Adif AV are electrified. In addition, 83% of train-km is done by electric trains." "Spain opts for massive electricity savings by using railway tech" https://www.banenor.no/en/startpage1/News/spain-opts-for-massive-electricity-savings-by-using-railway-tech/ https://www.banenor.no/en/startpage1/News/spain-opts-for-mas... "Percentage of the railway lines in use in Europe in 2019 which were electrified, by country" https://www.statista.com/statistics/451522/share-of-the-rail-network-which-is-electrified-in-europe/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/451522/share-of-the-rail...
- lucb1e 4y ago
  > at least electric ones Diesel trains are better than diesel cars. Carrying a 1000 kg shell for an average of 1.something persons with its own engine and air resistance, and needing to be able to stop in a few hundred meters even at top speed, is less efficient than having one engine and one front side to push air out of the way and low rolling resistance for transporting many people, if you compare equal fuel sources. But then cars are more flexible because you can take your portable shell anywhere at any time, not like the train. Then again, I like train rides (especially the Arriva trains between Sittard and Roermond are super comfy). There's a future for both, I'd say as someone who takes the bus and train at every opportunity (including for daily commute) but still finds himself in a car regularly.
igorkraw 4y ago
On top of what sibling comment said, trains will go anyway, so increasing occupancy means less total carbon since otherwise you'd have train+car. And for some people, this might mean not taking the plane, although I'm unsure about the fraction.
dagurp 4y ago
Do you have any reason to doubt that?
nodja 4y ago
If the train is free people will choose it more often than driving or taking a uber/cab thus saving on CO2 since the train would've been running whether it's full or empty.
- gernb 4y ago
  it has more to do if the trains are nice, clean, safe, on time, plentiful, convenient that price compared to uber
  - smileysteve 4y ago
    India has joined the chatm There are multiple aspects depending on what you're trying to accomplish. Your list is great if the target market is upper middle class (great for voters and private interest groups). Convenient and plentiful are really the ones that matter for economic mobility (person that can't get afford car, gas,insurance)
- severino 4y ago
  On the other hand, if this makes that the trains go full, people already using it may go back to driving or taking a ubar/cab.
  - californical 4y ago
    “Nobody ever goes there anymore, it’s way too crowded!” Really though, how is this an issue? A few people might not use trains anymore because they are packed full of new people? The net result is more people using trains
    - severino 4y ago
      In Spain, public transportation already suffers from many problems. And this can only make it worse, because guess what? The government isn't spending a single cent in improving our network, it's only going to allow people to board for free. And I don't think anybody already using his car will now use the train, because despite being "free" now, it's not going to be better than using your own car. But you're right, I don't think anybody using the train will switch to the car again, because fortunately, this will only last until December. And it won't start until September, because the government didn't want the tourists to benefit from this measure.
toiletfuneral 4y ago
Maybe true but still a bad take. Reducing the surface area of a problem like this makes its much easier to iterate on energy efficiencies than having millions of cars to replace periodically all with variable lifespans
throw827474737 4y ago
The results of Germany's 9€ ticket were profound - where it was more meant socially due to rising fuel prices, it had tremendous impact even on traffic jams, and people that were not expected to switched over. As public transport is usually publicly founded and/or subsidized, it also just makes sense to make it free for the public. Sure, the riches didn't like their Sylt getting invaded by Punks ... but except that I think your fear is unfounded, people don't travel just for fun, except for vacation/recreation, and it is much unfairer if the poor family cannot even do that, while better of people can do anything in their megavan (or to the extreme, in their private jet). Bostonian sounds like Boston ;), is it really so ingrained in the US that everything free or social must be bad? Some kind of mobility is imo kind of basic right, and it wouldn't hurt us richer nations to more support it. (just to make it clear, saying as someone who likely more pays for it than having any use).
- School-Cotton 4y ago
  > is it really so ingrained in the US that everything free or social must be bad? It’s not “the US” as a whole, it’s one particular ideology within the US, but yes, it’s somewhat more common of a view than in Germany.
  - SequoiaHope 4y ago
    One could argue that neoliberalism has been the dominant ideology in the USA for both parties since Ronald Reagan. Democrats and Republicans simply argue about whether the government should do very little or nothing at all. (Unless they are providing protection to big business, and then the government springs in to action.)
    - School-Cotton 4y ago
      According to Wikipedia, the total government budget in the US is around $20k per capita[0] which is on par with some very rich European countries like Germany and France. The problem in the US is extreme waste/inefficiency and unequal access, not lack of spending. By the way, neoliberalism is the dominant ideology in most countries now, not just the US. But neoliberalism doesn’t mean “no state spending”; that would be an exaggerated caricature. What you’re describing is more like libertarianism (in the US sense of the term) which indeed is rather unique to the US, but not the dominant ideology. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_government_budget_per_capita https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_governm...
bertil 4y ago
Train transport is far less, about seven times less, intensive per passenger than cars. Trains allow the production of CO2 to be centralised into a few power plants, owned by a handful of companies that are easy to monitor, regulate, and put around a table to coerce into emission-free solutions. Spain’s electricity carbon intensity is expected to fall from 167 g/kWh in 2020 to 37 g/kWh in 2050 thanks to the exceptional potential of all types of solar and abundant opportunities for wind farms. If you don’t believe me, plot the numbers yourself: train impact will literally be the width of your pen.
standardUser 4y ago
That's an staggeringly ignorant statement. Trains produce less CO2 per passenger mile than virtually any other form of transportation.

AdrianB1 4y ago

DRW_ 4y ago
With this correction, are you under the impression that people are assuming there's no cost to running trains now?
- hardwaregeek 4y ago
  Exactly. In what world is this correction necessary?
  - robertlagrant 4y ago
    In this one. People often think things are free when they're actually paid for by other people's taxes or inflation.
    - DRW_ 4y ago
      Who thinks that except maybe some very small, very ignorant and insignificant minority of people? I don't understand why people feel the need to point this out - everyone already knows this.
      - mdp2021 4y ago
        I will raise an exception to the use of '«know»', which is not really defined in terms of "actually discriminate" vs "being able to discriminate". Meaning: It is not that "people know that money does not come from cornucopiae": it is more that they are supposed not to hold the idea. Or: it should be implicit knowledge, not explicit. Or: you do not need to think about it to avoid dreaming that "streets are maintained by volunteers" (for lack of more absurd insanities at hand). Or: it's mental hygiene not to be delirious and work through a "yes/no" system - you are supposed to have plentiful buffers that avoid you holding weak ideas... Edit: or, if really that is something you find in society, you have a big elephant in the room (education) with priority over trains and everything.

baggy_trough 4y ago

Unless there's some kind of enforcement mechanism, free public transit becomes the abode of the homeless.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
Should not be an issue in Europe. Usually homeless people have other options than sleeping in public transport here.
- Ferrotin 4y ago
  It helps that they have less civil rights in Europe. Or less civil liberties. In America the state is very restricted in how it can deal with the homeless.
  - mdp2021 4y ago
    Please explain. You may give the idea Europe can deal with the problem through some unclear authoritarian action.
    - Ferrotin 4y ago
      The U.S., specially certain states, has what other countries would call extreme limits on its ability to deal with mentally ill vagrants. An inability to involuntarily institutionalize them, or even throw out the stuff they abandon on the sidewalk. It isn’t from lack of money spent on these people. So you see them riding the BART in San Francisco, making a nuisance of themselves, while also, the city spends a ton of money and has homeless shelters. Also, the basic ability of police to hassle people is less.
  - baggachipz 4y ago
    Social safety net == "less civil rights' and "less civil liberties"? Wow, I'd love to hear how one could ever arrive at that conclusion.
  - andrewaylett 4y ago

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

The difference between pennies and free is substantial. For tourists, navigating each system’s ticketing system is a pain. Even as a New Yorker, the antiquated paper mechanisms of the AirTrain are often enough to nudge me into a car.

deleted 4y ago
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ghaff 4y ago
As someone who was traveling a lot pre-pandemic and does tend to take public transit when there are good options available--I am always shocked at just how bad so many ticketing systems are for someone who is unfamiliar, may very well be tired/stressed, and may not even speak the language. It's not even just the ticketing. It can also be which piece of paper goes into the turnstile etc.--while the people lined up behind you are getting increasingly annoyed. Heck, after not using for quite a while, the contactless ticketing in my home-ish city wouldn't work for me for unclear reasons when I tried to take the subway and I ended buying a new card.
- kwhitefoot 4y ago
  Every bus company that I have used in recent years (UK, Norway) has an app that allows for route planning and buying tickets. In many cases it is an umbrella app that covers all transport in a given region. So if you have a smartphone there is no paper ticket.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    So as someone who has just arrived you only need to download an app somehow and register with it.
    - kwhitefoot 4y ago
      That can be a nuisance if you don't have a roaming subscription on your mobile I agree and you do need a smartphone. But you only need to find somewhere where there is wifi to do the download and then register a credit or debit card with the app. Most stations, buses, and trains have wifi.

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franciscop 4y ago

I live in Tokyo now, but I'm from Valencia, Spain. I knew the train there was bad when the local subway network, called "metrovalencia", was known locally as "metrovalenshit" (there's even a twitter @metrovalenshit), but compared to other cities or specially Tokyo it's like a toy. In here (Tokyo) they make major station changes without even disrupting traffic[1], the only time traffic is disrupted meaningfully is when there's a major earthquake/typhoon. Back in Valencia, the gvmt started building a new line, but then they abandoned it for over a decade. In some weekends with strong rains it floods. At least we got to see really beautiful pictures when someone entered and navigated with a boat! Multiple times across the years[2][3]. If you go a bit more local (smaller towns) and want to take a bus that is scheduled every 20 min, you go to the bus stop and hope that one will come within the next hour. We had to help a foreigner once that was gonna miss her flight since she was waiting for over an hour with no sight of a bus. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BYW4YYqG5A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BYW4YYqG5A [2] https://web.archive.org/web/20130111154819/http://www.goodfellasmagazine.com/laluzalfinal/vivo-navegando/ https://web.archive.org/web/20130111154819/http://www.goodfe... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=022pgffEy6A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=022pgffEy6A

Scarbutt 4y ago
Most countries are going to be bad when compared to Japan. Japan is also the third largest economy.
- TaylorAlexander 4y ago
  Yeah I’m in the USA just jealous that they have trains in Spain.
  - Aperocky 4y ago
    Interstate is marvelous. US is too big and too sparsely populated both on a large scale and small scale for trains like Europe, Japan and China. There's a part where no one talk about, and that's the infrastructure within the city are not conducive to trains. People get to a train station and they need to get around and unless you're talking about New York they really just need another car. This in comparison to European and Asian cities where your friend can just post you an address and you can use public transit all the way to the last block.

hardwaregeek 4y ago

Free or extremely cheap transportation is a fascinating development. I always found it odd that the rhetoric around transportation was that it should make money. We don't expect other parts of the government to turn a profit. Why transportation? If Amtrak went that direction and made its transportation close to free, I wonder if we'd see more people try it out. Maybe it'd gain some popularity and we could finally see a shift away from cars. Public transportation is a difficult process because until the money is spent and the line is there, people are not sold. Whereas with cars, even if a highway is not built, people still have a car by default. Therefore the government needs to float money, either in infrastructure or in subsidized fares. At least subsidized fares is a little less binary than infrastructure.

ghaff 4y ago
>If Amtrak went that direction and made its transportation close to free, I wonder if we'd see more people try it out. On the Northeast Corridor it could change the driving equation for couples and families. BUT Amtrak on the Northeast Corridor already runs at pretty high utilization. In fact, I believe there are expansion projects underway.
- balderdash 4y ago
  I was under the impression that the northeast corridor is actually profitable on its own, and keeps the rest of the system from losing even more money
  - ghaff 4y ago
    That too. Yes. To a first approximation Amtrak makes a fair bit of money on the Northeast Corridor which is then loses it pretty much everywhere else in the country. (There may be a few city pairs that are profitable but not many.)
dragonwriter 4y ago
> I always found it odd that the rhetoric around transportation was that it should make money. We don't expect other parts of the government to turn a profit. While it shows a deep misunderstanding of the concept of a public service, there are lots of other parts of government we do expect to be self-sustaining on user fees. Like the Postal Service.

dplesca 4y ago

I visited Berlin this summer and Germany has a 9 euro ticket that gives you unlimited travel on local/regional transport services during until the end of the calendar month. The ticket can be bought only throughout the summer months. For a tourist that was in town only for a few days, it was just amazing, no worries when taking any public transport for ticket zones, right tickets or time of availability. I imagine it was great for commuters too, price-wise at the very least. To me it seems like a great idea, honestly, I'm just not sure what the _real_ costs were and how financially viable such a measure would be over the long term.

ratww 4y ago
I'm also a big fan! > The ticket can be bought only throughout the summer months. The ticket is a new thing, by the way. The reason it's only available in "summer months" is because they haven't finished thinking about how it's gonna be after that. However the transport companies already manifested interest in continuing with the ticket for €69 [1]. Sure, not €9 but still progress. Some parties recently suggested €365 per year. Both are still a great price IMO considering I used to pay €40 a month (€63 in total, my company pays the rest), for a ticket that only covered Berlin! [1] https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/verbraucher/69-euro-ticket-103.html https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/verbraucher/69-euro-tic... [2] https://www.iamexpat.de/expat-info/german-expat-news/left-calls-nationwide-365-euro-ticket-follow-9-euro-ticket-2023 https://www.iamexpat.de/expat-info/german-expat-news/left-ca...
- solarkraft 4y ago
  I'm not sure I'd pay 70€ a month, but 30€/month would be attractive. 70€ or more would totally be attractive if the service was actually of good quality.
  - ratww 4y ago
    Makes total sense to me. I personally would probably pay the €69 if my employer paid a part, since I already pay €40 / €63 for Berlin, which I consider a good deal. But for people that have a car and tourists €70 is indeed a bit steep.

odiroot 4y ago

Living in England, I don't even dream about having free travel. But having very affordable local trains and buses would be good enough. And it's quite feasible too.

Daveenjay 4y ago

Swiss trains are where it’s at. Check this video from Not just bikes channel https://youtu.be/muPcHs-E4qc https://youtu.be/muPcHs-E4qc

ssl232 4y ago
The difference is ultimately money. A while ago (early 90s?) Switzerland voted to spend lots of money on the railway network to make it work the way it does. It was discussed on HN before. The video you linked notes single tickets are expensive and most commuters get half price or free travel paid by their employers. It's still a marvel, and I'd love to have the Swiss train network in my country even if it costs the same, but definitely worth pointing out when comparing to countries who don't have the political will to spend more on their railways.

DarthNebo 4y ago

Wonder by when we will have global electric railway lines for passengers & containers

diegoholiveira 4y ago

The myth of free stuff. Love it.

chris-orgmenta 4y ago
I think we all have an understanding that this is through taxpayer (corporate or resident) money. Is it really a myth? Free, in this context, is implied and inferred as 'the consumer doesn't pay directly for the ticket'. There is no trickery here.

ErneX 4y ago

AFAIK this only temporarily to try to alleviate inflation, so shrug.

escapecharacter 4y ago
My fantasy when it comes to temporary measures like these is that no one will be willing to take the political hit to take them away.
- ErneX 4y ago
  Problem is when they are afraid to revert this change and then the outcome is the trains getting lack of maintenance for lack of funds.
spaniard89277 4y ago
I'm not hoping in a train and travelling free to Madrid. This applies to ciertain rail pass used mostly by workers. The thing is that renfe has been closing many medium travel lines outside Madrid and Barcelona in exchange of HSR, so in reality everyone else is subsidizing Madrid and Barcelona...

dzonga 4y ago

I wish the UK will do this. Public transportation costs in the UK are totally criminal. yeah the trains are better than in the states. but it's totally criminal for trains to cost 30 quid from places that are like 30 mins from london. a single journey bus ticket in a small town 2.5 quid

willyt 4y ago
I agree. I might need to take a train to London from a regional city on Monday. Cheapest ticket is £150. Even with the high fuel prices currently it will cost me £60 to drive instead.

justinhj 4y ago

It’s not free it’s tax payer funded. If Americans hate the idea of paying for someone else’s healthcare they’re not going to like paying for their travel either

standardUser 4y ago
[flagged]
- seizethecheese 4y ago
  Regardless of how inane the original point was here, your reply comes across as nasty and equally inane.
  - justinhj 4y ago
    It’s not inane at all. People love the idea of free healthcare, loan forgiveness etc, but don’t like the idea of higher taxes
- argentinian 4y ago
  Believe it or not, at least in my country there is a lot of people that is not aware of what you mention. Educated people like HN readers do, but populist governments (like the one in my country) love to highlight all the "free" stuff that they give to the people.
  - standardUser 4y ago
    I think you think that is what other people believe because you want someone to blame or think you're better than. People aren't that stupid.
    - argentinian 4y ago
      Come to Argentina and talk to people. It's very cheap right now for foreigners. There are situations that people who was raised in an educated home in the first world find it hard to believe, but that happen anyways. Edit: I'll elaborate the point. There are people here that for more than 3 or 4 generations lived without working, being totally maintained by the state. Also a lot of that people never finish elementary school. So what happens is that they never think about where what they get comes from. It's normal for them to live 'for free' without ever considering how that works.

marsven_422 4y ago

pagutierrezn 4y ago

More remote work might be better than free mobility to reduce fuel consumption

vrnvu 4y ago

I live in Spain. To clarify. Free means more taxes.

forinti 4y ago
Couldn't the overall cost be lower if the government has to spend less on car infrastructure?

gumby 4y ago

It's good that it focuses on regional rail. I have never understood why drivers don't favor free public transport paid by road taxes: it would take cars off the road and make drivers' lives easier!

jmyeet 4y ago

City public transportation, at a very minimum, should be free. The NYC Subway should be free. The Tube in London should be free. The standard American response is to object on the grounds that we're subsidizing something and it's a wasteful government expenditure. You know what else that applies to? Roads. We subsidize roads and everyone is OK with that. Charging for public transport is just a regressive tax on what are typically the lowest paid workers. Regional transportation is more interesting. I'm not sure how that'll work in practice but I'm open to it.

202206241203 4y ago
> We subsidize roads and everyone is OK with that. Maybe making people walk more would cut the medical expenditure.
briga 4y ago
Public transit is already heavily subsidized. The revenue generated by ticket sales isn’t nearly enough to cover overall expenses. That money has to come from somewhere, and unless you’re going to raise taxes that means taking away from other public services. It’s no wonder there aren’t many politicians in North America advocating free public transit
- jmyeet 4y ago
  - Areibman 4y ago
    Gas taxes and tolls are in place to fund roads. (Though in many states it just ends up in the general fund).
    - jkarni 4y ago
      In the US, money from gas taxes is used to fund non-road-infrastructure, but conversely money from other taxes is also used on road infrastructure. It seems like on the whole gas taxes and toll do not cover roads (see eg [1]). [1] https://taxfoundation.org/gasoline-taxes-and-user-fees-pay-only-half-state-local-road-spending https://taxfoundation.org/gasoline-taxes-and-user-fees-pay-o...

TedShiller 4y ago

Spain will introduce worse trains and worse service

hgazx 4y ago

Spain is completely broke as it is. The amount of money the socialists of this country waste is astonishing.

systemvoltage 4y ago
Goverment dependence and eradication of normal transportation means in the name of some cause. That doesn't sound too appealing to me. The pace at which socialism on HN and progressive circles is being propelled is quite alarming. The same hand that feeds us, Capitalism, that's now being exercised in Asia to lift people out of poverty at an astonishing rate; the same hand is being bitten off by people who are enamored with the emotional appeal of socialism. It is too easy to sell socialism to public. An entire generation of people who value emotions over rational thought. Worth reading: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/21/opinion/david-brooks-capitalism.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/21/opinion/david-brooks-capi...
- throwrqX 4y ago
  Countries like China are not capitalist. They may use some aspects of capitalist systems but the political systems there are thoroughly authoritarian communist.
  - systemvoltage 4y ago
    What are you talking about? China's economy is absolutely capitalist, even modeled in the same way (Shenzhen economic zone akin to Ireland's) with some state intervention as of late. China's adoption of capitalism, as well as post-1991 India, is the precise reason for flourishment and lifting millions of people out of poverty. https://hbr.org/2021/05/americans-dont-know-how-capitalist-china-is https://hbr.org/2021/05/americans-dont-know-how-capitalist-c... What other countries "like China"?
Elinvynia 4y ago
Do workers own the means of production in Spain? If not, then well, they are not socialists.

fulafel 4y ago

The traditional train pricing system seems to result in underutilization of a valuable service. Train transit system cost is dominated by fixed costs of the rail network and adding extra cars to trains is relatively cheap, so free or heavily subsidized prices that raise utilization just under congestion level are good policy.

AlwaysRock 4y ago

Pretty cool. Imagine if it was free to get around. Right now in the US we have a shit tier system. You can get to a lot of places on a mega bus for cheap. But you will hate every second of it. I wish all public transit was free as well as Amtrak's.

WalterBright 4y ago

One problem with free transit is people decide to live on it. https://mynorthwest.com/3462940/rantz-shocking-video-shows-light-rail-train-used-as-homeless-shelter/ https://mynorthwest.com/3462940/rantz-shocking-video-shows-l...

vinnymac 4y ago
People live on transit, even where it is not free. I am curious how many more would live on transit, if it became free.
kwhitefoot 4y ago
In the US.
icelancer 4y ago
The Light Rail isn't even free here. Of course, about 10% of passengers actually pay, 90% refuse to pay because fare enforcement is racist... or something...
sph 4y ago
Homelessness isn't caused by free transit.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  I didn't say it was.

fulvioterzapi 4y ago

> The new plan has some limitations. While Germany’s 9-euro ($9) passes cover all public transit except faster train services, Spain will restrict itself to regional and suburban rail services, which are not as extensive as they are in Germany. While it might be technically possible to travel across Spain using only regional trains, it would not necessarily be easy because the slower network is quite patchy. To be honest the German situation is not so different from the Spanish one. Going from Munich to Berlin with the 9-euro ticket requires from 3 to 6 changes, and from 10 to 15 hours.

xcambar 4y ago
I think it is expected to be somewhat complex, considering you're using regional trains only. These trains serve a different purpose compared to national lines. I would be incapable of finding an easy regional journey between major cities in the countries I can think of.

zagrebian 4y ago

Did anyone else misread it as “free time travel”?

skeeter2020 4y ago

>> It also has another clear objective: helping citizens to reduce fuel consumption as energy prices soar. Train travel may be "better" than auto, but reducing consumption by making the product free doesn't mesh with any economics I've ever studied.

victor9000 4y ago

I think the sweet spot is to charge a nominal fee as opposed to making it outright free. We tried free in Seattle and it resulted in buses full of nuisance activity such as drug use, harassment, violence, toilet use, and other unpleasantries that resulted in a lot of people avoiding transit altogether.

kwhitefoot 4y ago
If you have a large number of people for whom a free bus is the only reasonable shelter then that is what will happen. Most European countries deal with homelessness, drug addiction, etc., differently. So I'm not sure that the experience is transferable.
- victor9000 4y ago
  Unfortunately the majority of Seattle's homeless population actively refuses proper shelter or assistance [1], but if that's different in Spain then I can see how it would lead to different outcomes. [1] https://www.q13fox.com/news/report-more-than-half-of-homeless-people-offered-shelter-by-city-of-seattle-say-no https://www.q13fox.com/news/report-more-than-half-of-homeles...
  - roberttod 4y ago
    I believe homeless shelters have policies such as not allowing dogs, and searching for drugs/alcohol, and they aren't always very safe and full of nits/flee infestations. The better option is to house the homeless or simply give them money. Utah enjoyed great success giving homeless houses in the 2000s.

wuschel 4y ago

Well, it is not free: someone (which means you, the Spanish tax payer) will have to cover the bill.

eMSF 4y ago
You are very mistaken. The ones covering the bill are the ones paying for the EU recovery fund, of which Spain was the biggest recipient.
miki_tyler 4y ago
You mean like free roads...?

JadoJodo 4y ago

I really wish these kinds of things would be properly framed as "subsidized", rather than "free". There are plenty of arguments for (and against) many kinds of government-provided goods/services, but the mentality that this elicits is one where the public seems to think that the government has a magical wishing well out of which anything can be summoned at no cost. For what it's worth: I think subsidized public transportation is a great use of tax dollars, and it's cool that Spain is extending this to train travel.

mrtksn 4y ago
Why? The car roads are called freeways when they are actually subsideways and no one seems to have a problem with that. What's special about trains?
- JadoJodo 4y ago
  I apologize for not being explicit enough in my original comment. The issue I was attempting to raise is not with how things are named ("Freeway", "Free range", etc.), but with how they are presented. For example, "London undertaking $55 million in road projects this summer" and "London undertaking $0 in road projects this summer" are very different things.

GekkePrutser 4y ago

I'm in Spain but this thing is only for a couple of months. It's not something that's a game changer in any kind of way. It's nice but it won't change anything

ps901 4y ago
Maybe a quick look to Germany might help. The 9 Euro ticket was / is a great success on its own. However, the more important thing is that people are now actively talking alternatives for transportation, like cheaper / free public transport, investing and building and so on. That kind of discussion would've been unimaginable some years ago.

nutsack123 4y ago

mikaeluman 4y ago

As usual, economically irresponsible countries introduce "free" stuff. And who pays? How about the EU countries that support them? Sweden, Germany, the Netherlands, and more. Nothing is free. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/spain-leads-eu-pandemic-funding-race-obstacles-remain-2022-06-27/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/spain-leads-eu-pandemic...

pelasaco 4y ago
Exactly. The State cannot generate wealth itself. The State, through its representatives (aka Politicians) take people money's by force to do such stuff.. unbelievable.
miki_tyler 4y ago
Spain contribution/benefits to the EU budget has been pretty much flat after the latest EU expansion to the East, so no, the Spaniards are paying for this themselves. Spain was a large beneficiary of the EU budget in the past though.

dehrmann 4y ago

Normally, I worry about things be free, but beyond transit turning into mobile homeless shelters (see the "Hotel 22"), I'm not all that worried about regional transit being free. There isn't much marginal cost, it takes cars off roads, you can save by not having to do ticket sales and fare enforcement, and traveling is enough of a hassle, I don't see it inducing that much demand for transit for shorter distances.

pelasaco 4y ago

Spain's debt is 95% of their GDP. I guess who is going to pay this "free train" (Hint: Europe)