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TikTok is the most successful espionage operation of the 21st century so far, and it is based on a simple idea - people will happily give away their data and pr
by mkl95 4y ago
TikTok is the most successful espionage operation of the 21st century so far, and it is based on a simple idea - people will happily give away their data and privacy if you consistently entertain them.
In my opinion the application should be shut down as soon as possible, but there are many lessons to learn from it. And most of them have little to do with technology.
- madeofpalk 4y agoAs a non-US, non-Chinese citizen, is there something that makes TikTok espionage and Facebook not? Or is it just "china scary"?
- shikoba 4y agoIt is because China is the enemy. When it's Facebook or Google strangely it's never an issue. Moral is always a facade for international economic war. And some people fall for it.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- pempem 4y agoWhile most people on HN would agree that they would like more regulation of their data on FB and Google, these are largely still separate actors from the US government. You can even indicate that something like Cambridge Analytica is starting within a party, rather than the actual governing body. There is too much sharing, IMO, without a doubt. That being said, they are not near synonymous as TikTok is. Data regulation, privacy, influence through exposure are real issues worldwide. Tiktok has a raised profile due to its closeness with a governing state body.
- Al-Khwarizmi 4y agoThe thing is that "government = bad" is typical American mindset. As another non-US, non-Chinese citizen, the fact that those megacorporations are independent from the government makes it worse, not better. At least governments respond to their people (especially in the case of democracies, much less so for authoritarian governments, but they still have to worry a minimum to avoid revolution). Corporations respond to profit only, everything else be damned.
- bko 4y agoWhen Facebook starts opening concentration camps, I'm likely to agree with you. > especially in the case of democracies, much less so for authoritarian governments, but they still have to worry a minimum to avoid revolution What do you think is more likely to still be relevant in 100 years from now, China or Facebook? I think a 'revolution' is more likely to affect Facebook than China
- echaozh 4y agoHmm, you know corporations can run prisons, and they can fight in wars with mercenaries.
- formerkrogemp 4y ago> When Facebook starts opening concentration camps, I'm likely to agree with you I wonder. If your product is used to recruit soldiers, spread propaganda, disseminate hate speech, and organize and deploy said concentration camps or their equivalent, are you liable and culpable? If you've known for years and done next to nothing about sectarian violence and genocide, are you still blameless? When moderation could have been hired and trained for an immaterial amount of profit? SEA wages are notoriously low in dollar terms. Poorly implemented machine learning models don't suffice to halt genocide. Greed, ignorance, malevolence, sloth, arrogance. Take your pick. https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/kill-facebook-fails-detect-hate-rohingya-83576729 https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/kill-facebook-fail... https://www.globalwitness.org/en/campaigns/digital-threats/rohingya-facebook-hate-speech/ https://www.globalwitness.org/en/campaigns/digital-threats/r... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/15/technology/myanmar-facebook-genocide.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/15/technology/myanmar-facebo...
- dnissley 4y agoIf a security hole was found in Google and in the US government, which do you think would respond in a way that would make that less likely to happen in the future?
- arroz 4y agogovernment is not always bad However government knowing about your private stuff is Homophobic governments shouldn’t know about gay peoples privacy Christian governments shouldn’t know about women’s abortion The government can help, it shouldn’t get in the way — which is very much what can do under a dictatorship
- alfiedotwtf 4y ago> these are largely still separate actors from the US government Yes they're separate actors, but programs like PRISM suggest that they're still on a very short leash
- sneak 4y agoNot just PRISM: Apple has actually been (presumably) forced to not publish e2e encryption software that the feds didn't want deployed, an example of prior restraint that is blatantly unconstitutional. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive/exclusive-apple-dropped-plan-for-encrypting-backups-after-fbi-complained-sources-idUSKBN1ZK1CT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv...
- pempem 4y agoCompletely. So much of this framing however is being pushed/forced/rulings or judgement driven decisions. You get the sense that TikTok is like "cool, yeah, we'll add that to our roadmap"
- Schroedingersat 4y agoJust because the chinese oligarchs give themselves government titles and the US oligarchs do not is no reason to believe they're not the ones in control.
- pempem 4y agoLove this point. So true, and so accurate. That being said they are also highly disparate with a variety of motivations and are incredibly hard to whip (using this the way its used in congress) into directions that are nuanced. Things like "we wanna make more money" "regulations/unions are bad" ofc oligarchs in the US manage to see eye to eye on, but anything further nuanced - that class discipline - is harder to achieve in the US than China
- bko 4y agoI think there's a difference between a private company having my data and an adversarial government. The company has a clear motive, profit. They're lawful neutral. An adversarial government may be chaotic evil. I don't know why this isn't obvious. Wasn't everyone freaking out just a few years ago when Russian government was manipulating people with political groups on Facebook? And that's even with Facebook's earnest effort to prevent these things. With this company, there's a direct tie in with an adversarial government. Yes, ideally I don't want anyone to have my data, but lets not pretend Zuck and CCP are the same thing
- Miner49er 4y agoI'm the opposite. I would much rather have the CCP have my data then a US based company like FB. Unless I travel to China, what are the CCP going to do to the average American with their data? Whereas, in the US, the data could be used in the future to prosecute me for my political views or whatever with law changes.
- arroz 4y agoThe CCP can try to instigate chaos Can try to instigate hate Extremism Cause democracy to fall Make people feel hopeless in a possible future war, and just give up before trying so they can achieve their goals with ease
- gsatic 4y agoCool pov. Take my upvote. But of course never going to happen. Tribal instincts, schizmogenisis etc
- bko 4y agoThe CCP could be actively trying to get you hate your neighbor and spread disinformation. That could be a byproduct of either group, but it is more likely to be an explicit goal of CCP. Here's a gem from the WHO in January 2020. This was almost certainly known to be a lie to the CCP based on their actions at the time > Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel #coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in #Wuhan, #China. https://twitter.com/who/status/1217043229427761152 https://twitter.com/who/status/1217043229427761152
- phyrex 4y agoHow are they “The Enemy”? Are they coming and killing Americans or is it just generic xenophobia?
- vinyl7 4y agoEconomic enemy
- sumnole 4y agoThis just isn't true for anyone but die hard nationalists. The average citizen has no reason to care what country their products and services are coming from. It's better that the world trade and communicate beyond borders. Calls for banning Tik Tok are coming from people afraid of fair international competition.
- jes 4y agoI found this[1] report (PDF) from the DEA: "Currently, China remains the primary source of fentanyl and fentanyl-related substances trafficked through international mail and express consignment operations environment, as well as the main source for all fentanyl-related substances trafficked into the United States. Seizures of fentanyl sourced from China average less than one kilogram in weight, and often test above 90 percent concentration of pure fentanyl." Presumably, if the CCP wanted to do so, they could put an end to the groups shipping this deadly substance into the United States. 1. https://tinyurl.com/4396s38r https://tinyurl.com/4396s38r
- burntbridge 4y ago>Presumably, if the CCP wanted to do so, they could put an end to the groups shipping this deadly substance into the United States. Presumably, if the United States wanted to do so, they could put an end to the groups shipping this deadly substance from the China. Just changed the wording a little to show the bias in this sentence. Why do think China would be more successful than the U.S. in prohibiting illegal drugs?
- 4y ago
- DavidSharff 4y agoI agree about the contradictions and hypocrisy but the answer can be much more pragmatic: > As a non-US, non-Chinese citizen, is there something that makes TikTok espionage and Facebook not? Or is it just "china scary"? There's problems with US big tech and TikTok but the case against TikTok is easier to push through. There's nothing wrong with patching the first of many holes in your roof and starting with the one easiest to get to. --------- My primary emotional and ethical driver is to point out my own government (the US) not living up to its marketing material, but it doesn't mean I wouldn't support eliminating a vector for another (openly autocratic) government to meddle with my country as well. Edit: distinguish my reply to prior comment from my ramblings about my reply.
- Calvin02 4y agoYes. China and Russia are the biggest geopolitical threats to the world. It is surprisingly that simple. While the US and the western governments have their issues, they are still largely law abiding. China, however, is not. Additionally, under Xi, it has become more authoritarian and more willing to undo the rules based order that has someone kept the world somewhat sane since WWII. I don’t know why anyone would be afraid to say this.
- guywatershow 4y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r... Rules were made to be broken!
- onelovetwo 4y agoIf you're looking at it from that perspective, tiktok should be the least of your worries. Currently The U.S. is entirely dependent on this "geopolitical threat" to survive. At least with tiktok its as simple as shutting down the app. The U.S and China are entangled in ways you cant imagine.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- fabianhjr 4y agoI am from latin america and at least neither China nor Russia have participated in coup d'etat to install a military junta to then torture and massacre anyone slightly left of the US "Democratic" Party. Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2khAmMTAjI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2khAmMTAjI
- EamonnMR 4y agoTikTok's format is more successful at micro targeting and influencing people than Facebook. Other future social media networks will probably work in a similar way and be just as concerning. YouTube is another one that's very good at influencing people. I wonder if video is unsafe at any speed, so to speak... A spooky example of TikTok-the-emergent-system's ability to influence people at scale. This one gave me pause. https://www.wbur.org/endlessthread/2022/06/03/tiktok-tics https://www.wbur.org/endlessthread/2022/06/03/tiktok-tics
- cruano 4y agoInfluencing sure, but espionage ? From what I can tell, people mostly consume content there in a similar fashion to YouTube, i.e. you don't really add your real-life friends and you don't post your day-to-day stuff unless you are already a celebrity Contrary to facebook where people would literally "Follow" their political parties, workplaces, friend groups from school/work/gym/life, etc.
- bastawhiz 4y agoEspionage for the sake of espionage isn't useful. But if you're collecting lots and lots of data about what people like and what makes them angry and you have a direct line to feed them whatever information you want, having tens of millions of targets for opinion-influencing content is a very powerful tool for a state actor.
- option 4y agounder which rule would your rather live Western (US) or China. And no, realistically you do not have “your own” choice
- justinpowers 4y agoThis whole thread is equivalent to two people on opposite sides of the Earth arguing about whether the sun will be rising or setting. Just go buy some sunscreen already.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- sidlls 4y agoI like these kinds of replies that minimize the dangers China presents to the world while implying people concerned about the same are just ignorant xenophobes and racists.
- ArrayBoundCheck 4y agoLets take this silly example. Lets say apple engineers all have kids who use tiktok and some of the kids or engineers do something shady and someone gets blackmailed. As a consequence apple launches 3months later and in the meantime someone from china launches a killer phone with the same or almost as good tech specs. Sure the apple fans may wait it out but that could be a billion dollars of sales to china that would have went to USA That's one of the point of espionage. To get a competitive or monetary advantage. If facebook did this to other companies within the states, at least the country isn't losing money The other would be things used to jail innocent people but for the most part I don't think thats how tiktok is being used
- schrectacular 4y agoThere is not. And that's why Facebook was banned in China just as uptake was going exponential.
- kumarvvr 4y agoThe ground truth is simple. In the US, you can intimidate Facebook and Google. You can't do that to TikTok.
- SMVS 4y agoAs an ex FAANG, nothing could be more true. TikTok is just continuing what Silicon Valley started, only they're better at it. Having seen what US tech companies have done with my data, I'd much rather it was in the hands of the Chinese.
- hnov 4y agoWhat have they done with your data? Also have worked at a few FAANGs and from what I’ve seen (admittedly not working on social or B2C products) data is subject to rules and is generally used in aggregate only.
- zthrowaway 4y agoChina bot galore. Lol.
- oittaa 4y ago[flagged]
- webmobdev 4y agoTikTok is BigTech too. Chinese BigTech rather than US BigTech. That's a problem for some. As someone who is neither Chinese or American, and with no local alternative to any of the BigTech's service, I am screwed either way. With lax privacy laws and regulations in my country, both American and Chinese BigTech freely abuse our naivety and trust to harvest our personal data.
- pfisherman 4y agoMore effective than Facebook or Google? Last I checked they didn’t have their “pixel” or SDK embedded in every web page or mobile app, beaming data back to them. Not saying that TikTok is benevolent or not a surveillance operation, just that they are not yet as big, insidious, or effective as Facebook or Google.
- madeofpalk 4y ago> Last I checked they didn’t have their “pixel” or SDK embedded in every web page or mobile app, beaming data back to them Oh you might actually be surprised about that one https://ads.tiktok.com/help/mobile/article?aid=9663 https://ads.tiktok.com/help/mobile/article?aid=9663
- pfisherman 4y agoLol! Of course they would! Thanks for this info.
- rvz 4y agoSome naively said that it was 'The best thing to have happened to the Internet.' [0] This is an example of a user under the spell of the glorified algorithm that dictates what is seen and unseen. So given that this [1] is the general capability of what the algorithm can do, it looks like that it is the largest and the most dystopian controlled experiment of the 21st century. Even worse than Facebook. We have hit a new nadir on screwing with 'users' with this new digital crack / cocaine invention that Bytedance has created. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28135484 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28135484 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28151067 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28151067
- chaostheory 4y agoWhat data are we exactly giving Tiktok? I would agree with it being called a propaganda platform, but I’m not sure about it being a surveillance platform.
- groffee 4y agoYou can't sign up with just an email, you need third party integration like Twitter, and surprise, you need to give TikTok full access to your account. Still pretty entertaining though.
- chaostheory 4y agoThat’s not true. You can signup without Twitter, Google or Facebook accounts. I signed up with just my email https://www.tiktok.com/signup https://www.tiktok.com/signup Also just because they use Twitter to sign in, it doesn’t mean they have access to any private data.
- sudosysgen 4y agoThis is incorrect. You can sign up with email.
- jsemrau 4y agoYou are likely mistaken. FB/Meta is still the leading data-broker because (a) they track you even though you are not on their app [1] (b) they own 55% of app downloads in the US [2] [1] https://media.ccc.de/v/35c3-9941-how_facebook_tracks_you_on_android#t=1631 https://media.ccc.de/v/35c3-9941-how_facebook_tracks_you_on_... [2] https://app.finclout.io/t/b9BbQa4 https://app.finclout.io/t/b9BbQa4
- RONROC 4y agoWhat people are afraid to say is that the United States arguably has a bad enough rap sheet as China, but still, even with its shortcomings, it's still not China. And yes, China bad.
- colinsane 4y ago> it is based on a simple idea - people will happily give away their data and privacy if you consistently entertain them. there’s the individual-level view, and the state-level view. i, as an individual, don’t really care if China has my location data or shopping data. what are they going to do with it? they can exert soft power over me: propaganda; distort my worldview a bit. meanwhile, if my own government has access to this same data, i suffer direct consequences. my odds of getting arrested for nonviolent crime (e.g. political activism; buying drugs online) go way up when my govt surveils me: far less so when it’s a foreign govt doing this. it doesn’t have so much to do with individuals making foolish tradeoffs over their own interests IMO: the way espionage plays into this is as an alignment gap between individual and state interests.
- hellodanylo 4y agoWhat if US government makes a (secret) deal with China to get data from them? It might seem unlikely today, but politics can change any time. Data markets can be fairly efficient. Once someone has your data, they can always (re)sell it to the highest bidder.
- fardo 4y ago> meanwhile, if my own government has access to this same data, i suffer direct consequences. my odds of getting arrested for nonviolent crime (e.g. political activism; buying drugs online) go way up when my govt surveils me It seems like an error to assume these two forms of surveillance are mutually exclusive. At any of > the Starbucks you’re using for free wifi > the ISP your endpoint is using for internet access > the data centers in which Tiktok is serving you data > the device on which you didn’t write the OS or any background programs written on it Presumably anyone with the power and inclination to listen or influence the design of the above can intercept any non-encrypted or not-yet-encrypted data you’re exchanging (and if they’re a state actor, probably get access to whatever information they’d need to perform decryption) - including your government.
- sneak 4y agoAlmost all APIs are TLS-encrypted these days, leaking only the hostname to which the client is connecting (via SNI which is as yet unencrypted). This is not to say you're not being surveilled (as to which apps you use, etc) but there is relatively little unencrypted traffic coming out of most devices in 2022.
- nonamenoslogan 4y agoHaving watched a lot of TikTok, I can say they aren't going to get much from the vast majority of that data.
- outside1234 4y agoYes - I uninstalled it from all of our family phones - that was not popular - but no regrets.
- alex_smart 4y ago>TikTok is the most successful espionage operation of the 21st century so far More than FB and Google? Press X to doubt.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 4y agoPeople will "give away" their data when there are no laws to stop "tech" company intermediaries^1 from collecting it. Google, Facebook and others collect heaps of data. TikTok is hardly a special case. 1. Like Google and Facebook, TikTok does not author the "content" to which they provide access that serves as the "bait". They sit in between the author and the consumer and collect. The lesson I see here is that intermediaries need to be regulated.
- baby 4y agoI feel like you’ve probably never used tiktok
- raxxorraxor 4y agoProblem is that everyone that shares their data will draw everyone in a form of co-dependence as their data will be used for governance and content decisions. Even if there is the at least one obvious difference of some users sharing data and some users not doing so. I don't think you can close a platform like this again. It won't be the end of civilization either and perhaps another platform will at one day take its place. Arguably the privacy protection for western users are even better if the data doesn't leave China.
- barrysteve 4y agoIt's so weird Windows never gets mentioned in the privacy discussion. Competing over what people do on the Web and phone apps them might have more economic impact than what MS collects, but MS has a more ingrained view of someone's electronic life via the OS. Deleting TikTok and installing an Adblocker is an order of magnitude easier than switching to Linux or Mac.
- gyaru 4y agoIn what world is this even true in the age of Facebook and Google? TikTok might get engagement and device data but that's about it. I assume this is the classic case of "China Bad" "USA Good" (or less bad because it's not China)