18 ms·

I just landed in BER 20 minutes ago and I am just amazed how bad the signage is The signs tiny and all in the same red/white color. The monitors tiny and spars

by franze 4y ago

I just landed in BER 20 minutes ago and I am just amazed how bad the signage is The signs tiny and all in the same red/white color. The monitors tiny and sparse. The placement of the tickets for the trains placed where you do not pass. And just good luck if you go down the wrong stairway and then reached the nowhere, without any visible signs. They cared about the CI way more than about fast passenger throughput.

bobthepanda 4y ago
The same architect who designed Tegel did BER. Sometimes, past performance is not indicative of the future.
- anamexis 4y ago
  I don't know, given the experience at Tegel, I'd say past performance is very indicative of future. What a terrible airport that was.
  - arez 4y ago
    what? Tegel was the best airport ever, you could literally be there 20min before check-in and still get your plane. Nowadays I have to arrive 3-4hrs before, tegel was a blessing a true king of all airports, all hail tegel
    - kolinko 4y ago
      > Nowadays I have to arrive 3-4hrs before I flew through the new Berlin airport 2 times this week, and had no issues going through security and to the gates. That 3-4hrs in your case seems absurdly long - were there crazy lines at the checkin or sth?
    - b112 4y ago
      Nowadays I have to arrive 3-4hrs before This is true many places, although I tend to show with a tighter timetable myself. But it's so absurd, so silly. It's actually faster to drive from Ottawa to Toronto(4 to 5 hr drive) than take a plane, and cheaper.. even with current fuel costs, too. What a way to ruin a mode of travel.
      - vanviegen 4y ago
        To me it's absurd that flying such a short distance apparently was an attractive option (to some) until recently.
        bobthepanda 4y ago
        Usually, most small flights of that type are connections onward. It's usually good for passengers because all other things being equal the security procedures at smaller airports, the traffic etc. is a lot less bad.
        rglullis 4y ago
        Trains still should be the alternative for these cases. The only exception I can think of where short-haul flights could be accepted is from small islands that need connection to a larger city inland.
        b112 4y ago
        It's about 450km, which is between 4 and 5 hours, traffic at each city depending.. A propeller plane shines here. If boarding is quick, and there is no customs as it is in country, and you just carry on? You save time, and it's better than 20 to 50 people driving independantly. A plane can also fly straight too, so it can take even 1/3 of the time to get there. Which is why boarding slow downs are so sad.
        jeromegv 4y ago
        OP likely meant that it is a very sad thing for the environment that we (as a society) privilege air travel instead of train travel for such a short distance and where there’s no need to cross a border. The train brings you in the middle of both city center, directly integrated with transit, you can show up about 10 min before your departure, etc. It’s just the actual rail that is the problem.
        jhugo 4y ago
    - kolinko 4y ago
      Unless there was a crazy line that day to that single security spot and you had to jump the line or risk getting late for your plane. I flew through Tegel a dosen times and it was a horrible experience each time. Not sure which was worse - the old terminal, or the new barrack added on to the first one. Also, I've seen multiple airports that allowed you to be 20 min before boarding and still get through. On Warsaw Chopin, which is 2x bigger than Tagel, I can arrive 10 min before boarding and still make it on time. With most airports the size of Tagel as well. Having said all that - the architecture was nice indeed, and I'm sure it was very functional when it was built and there was 4x less traffic, planes were 30% smaller and the security was way lighter.
    - rsynnott 4y ago
      It was… not great if you were coming from outside Schengen. I was there maybe three times, coming from Dublin; twice, only one of the passport desks was staffed (they also had the machines, but I never saw them in working order). Both times, of course, someone ahead of me in the queue had some problem, and it took an hour to get through passport control. Never seen this at any other airport. Schonefeld was better, though getting there involved taking Ryanair…
      - m_fayer 4y ago
        Schönefeld definitely won the award for most disgusting airport bathrooms in western EU, and most kafka-esque narrow winding hallways that may or may not be taking you where you want to go.
        rsynnott 4y ago
        See, normal-airport problems! It's annoying in a normal airport way; Tegel was annoying in exciting new unique ways. (Honestly, I expect Tegel was pretty good for Schengen traffic).
        com 4y ago
        I loved Tegel - mostly used the parking structure-turned-into-terminal barracks thing though. Fast in and out, even with the X10 bus connection. The main terminal was weirdly narrow on airside, but from memory apart from having to stand to drink beer was just fine. I liked the currywurst carriage outside by departures if I was ever more than 30 minutes early for my flight. Schönefeld on the other hand … grr. I argue that that airport was exceptionally poor in a way I’ve never experienced outside of corporate airports used for industrial and mining facilities.
      - Arn_Thor 4y ago
        It took me well over an hour to get through passport control in Paris CDG. And that was not even entering Schengen but leaving
  - djhworld 4y ago
    I found it quite novel, checking in and then immediately going through security to your gate behind. A lot of airports are vast complexes and takes you a while to get from A - B, Tegel was quite quaint in comparison! Admittedly for a major/global city - it was too small.
    - p_l 4y ago
      It's something that might trip people up, but due to West/East Germany split and Interflug going under after unification, Berlin airports are peripheral - leaves in flight graph, not hubs except for low cost airlines. Lufthansa continues to use Munich and Frankfurt as hubs.
      - bobthepanda 4y ago
        Also as part of the legacy of the split, Berlin is the only EU capital that has a lower GDP per capita than the country.
        realityking 4y ago
        According to Wikipedia, this was no longer true in 2019 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_states_by_GRP_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_states_by_GRP_p...
  - dekhn 4y ago
    Is that the one that had the really awkward bathrooms?
- dzikimarian 4y ago
  Well Tegel with multiple security checks during transfers isn't pinnacle of good communication either.
  - bobthepanda 4y ago
    Security checks didn't really exist when Tegel opened in 1974. So the architect can at least be excused for not knowing about future requirements.
  - inferiorhuman 4y ago
    The worst for security that I've ever experienced was Amsterdam Schiphol. Absolute chaos at land side security and Americans on American airlines get extra inspection. When I was there they did the extra screening at the gate, but they've gone back and forth a bunch on where that's supposed to happen. Tegel OTOH was super quick albeit poorly connected to the rest of Berlin.
    - bobthepanda 4y ago
      At airports that do this I find it’s more common when US TSA adopts a rule first that people don’t want to subject all air passengers to. It was really common to have gate lines back when the US introduced that 3 oz bottle max.
      - inferiorhuman 4y ago
        The situation at AMS is that they kowtowed to the American government. The extra security doesn't apply to anyone flying a non-American airline (e.g. KLM) just Americans on American airlines flying to America. Used to be you'd have to go wander to a secondary screening station but when I flew through in 2019 they just pulled you out of line at the gate. I've not seen another airport that does this (in Europe or elsewhere).
- vishnugupta 4y ago
  I’ve been to some bad airports but by God Tegel is by far the worst I’ve ever been to.
  - distances 4y ago
    Interestingly, Tegel (old terminal) is my favourite airport of all times due to the unmatched efficiency. It wasn't beautiful but it required a fraction of time compared to anything else.
- amadeuspagel 4y ago
  Second system syndrome?
- probably_wrong 4y ago
  If you listen to the podcast they explain that it wasn't his fault. Spoilers: he designed BER for fast passenger transit, just like Tegel, but the airport authorities wanted more shopping space. So they crammed as many shops as they could in detriment of the passenger experience. And then there's the situation with the rise of low-cost airlines who weren't allowed to use the jetway... I definitely recommend listening to the whole series. It's really well done and a must-listen for anyone with interest in project management.
  - bobthepanda 4y ago
    This glosses over some stuff that is definitely his fault. The first issue that caused the issues, the fire system, was designed to suck air underground, because the architect did not want a fire system to obstruct his roof, never mind that smoke and hot air naturally rise. https://www.thegermanreview.de/p/the-real-story-behind-berlins-airport https://www.thegermanreview.de/p/the-real-story-behind-berli...
    - paganel 4y ago
      Maybe half-invented, but I read an architect's memoirs some years ago and he was saying how around the 1940s there were often cases when he and his chief-architect/supervisor at the time were actually chased out (like, physically) from the construction sites whenever they were coming in to add/make some changes that the constructor was considering as being too over the top/unrealistic. We need for that attitude to come back, at least in a metaphorical way, otherwise we'll continue being stuck with projects like this one.
      - bigDinosaur 4y ago
        Why would you chase the architect with his insane ideas away when you're getting paid by the hour and the project must be completed at some point because there's no alternative for the government? Unfortunately nobody appears to come off as not corrupt or idiotic in some way in this story.
ginko 4y ago
>They cared about the CI way more than about fast passenger throughput. Continuous integration?
- sdoering 4y ago
  Corporate Identity
- wuyishan 4y ago
  Corporate Identity
- Rebelgecko 4y ago
  Customer intelligence
- labster 4y ago
  Communist International
  - selimthegrim 4y ago
    The passengers having lost the confidence of the airport, the airport has decided to dissolve them and elect others.
- TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
  Cat Immutability
- therein 4y ago
  Criminal Intent
- dean177 4y ago
  Consumer intent
- yeetsFromHellL3 4y ago
- 4y ago

by franze 4y ago

bobthepanda 4y ago

The same architect who designed Tegel did BER. Sometimes, past performance is not indicative of the future.

anamexis 4y ago
I don't know, given the experience at Tegel, I'd say past performance is very indicative of future. What a terrible airport that was.
- arez 4y ago
  what? Tegel was the best airport ever, you could literally be there 20min before check-in and still get your plane. Nowadays I have to arrive 3-4hrs before, tegel was a blessing a true king of all airports, all hail tegel
  - kolinko 4y ago
    > Nowadays I have to arrive 3-4hrs before I flew through the new Berlin airport 2 times this week, and had no issues going through security and to the gates. That 3-4hrs in your case seems absurdly long - were there crazy lines at the checkin or sth?
  - b112 4y ago
    Nowadays I have to arrive 3-4hrs before This is true many places, although I tend to show with a tighter timetable myself. But it's so absurd, so silly. It's actually faster to drive from Ottawa to Toronto(4 to 5 hr drive) than take a plane, and cheaper.. even with current fuel costs, too. What a way to ruin a mode of travel.
    - vanviegen 4y ago
      To me it's absurd that flying such a short distance apparently was an attractive option (to some) until recently.
      - bobthepanda 4y ago
        Usually, most small flights of that type are connections onward. It's usually good for passengers because all other things being equal the security procedures at smaller airports, the traffic etc. is a lot less bad.
        rglullis 4y ago
        Trains still should be the alternative for these cases. The only exception I can think of where short-haul flights could be accepted is from small islands that need connection to a larger city inland.
      - b112 4y ago
        It's about 450km, which is between 4 and 5 hours, traffic at each city depending.. A propeller plane shines here. If boarding is quick, and there is no customs as it is in country, and you just carry on? You save time, and it's better than 20 to 50 people driving independantly. A plane can also fly straight too, so it can take even 1/3 of the time to get there. Which is why boarding slow downs are so sad.
        jeromegv 4y ago
        OP likely meant that it is a very sad thing for the environment that we (as a society) privilege air travel instead of train travel for such a short distance and where there’s no need to cross a border. The train brings you in the middle of both city center, directly integrated with transit, you can show up about 10 min before your departure, etc. It’s just the actual rail that is the problem.
        jhugo 4y ago
  - kolinko 4y ago
    Unless there was a crazy line that day to that single security spot and you had to jump the line or risk getting late for your plane. I flew through Tegel a dosen times and it was a horrible experience each time. Not sure which was worse - the old terminal, or the new barrack added on to the first one. Also, I've seen multiple airports that allowed you to be 20 min before boarding and still get through. On Warsaw Chopin, which is 2x bigger than Tagel, I can arrive 10 min before boarding and still make it on time. With most airports the size of Tagel as well. Having said all that - the architecture was nice indeed, and I'm sure it was very functional when it was built and there was 4x less traffic, planes were 30% smaller and the security was way lighter.
  - rsynnott 4y ago
    It was… not great if you were coming from outside Schengen. I was there maybe three times, coming from Dublin; twice, only one of the passport desks was staffed (they also had the machines, but I never saw them in working order). Both times, of course, someone ahead of me in the queue had some problem, and it took an hour to get through passport control. Never seen this at any other airport. Schonefeld was better, though getting there involved taking Ryanair…
    - m_fayer 4y ago
      Schönefeld definitely won the award for most disgusting airport bathrooms in western EU, and most kafka-esque narrow winding hallways that may or may not be taking you where you want to go.
      - rsynnott 4y ago
        See, normal-airport problems! It's annoying in a normal airport way; Tegel was annoying in exciting new unique ways. (Honestly, I expect Tegel was pretty good for Schengen traffic).
        com 4y ago
        I loved Tegel - mostly used the parking structure-turned-into-terminal barracks thing though. Fast in and out, even with the X10 bus connection. The main terminal was weirdly narrow on airside, but from memory apart from having to stand to drink beer was just fine. I liked the currywurst carriage outside by departures if I was ever more than 30 minutes early for my flight. Schönefeld on the other hand … grr. I argue that that airport was exceptionally poor in a way I’ve never experienced outside of corporate airports used for industrial and mining facilities.
    - Arn_Thor 4y ago
      It took me well over an hour to get through passport control in Paris CDG. And that was not even entering Schengen but leaving
- djhworld 4y ago
  I found it quite novel, checking in and then immediately going through security to your gate behind. A lot of airports are vast complexes and takes you a while to get from A - B, Tegel was quite quaint in comparison! Admittedly for a major/global city - it was too small.
  - p_l 4y ago
    It's something that might trip people up, but due to West/East Germany split and Interflug going under after unification, Berlin airports are peripheral - leaves in flight graph, not hubs except for low cost airlines. Lufthansa continues to use Munich and Frankfurt as hubs.
    - bobthepanda 4y ago
      Also as part of the legacy of the split, Berlin is the only EU capital that has a lower GDP per capita than the country.
      - realityking 4y ago
        According to Wikipedia, this was no longer true in 2019 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_states_by_GRP_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_states_by_GRP_p...
- dekhn 4y ago
  Is that the one that had the really awkward bathrooms?
dzikimarian 4y ago
Well Tegel with multiple security checks during transfers isn't pinnacle of good communication either.
- bobthepanda 4y ago
  Security checks didn't really exist when Tegel opened in 1974. So the architect can at least be excused for not knowing about future requirements.
- inferiorhuman 4y ago
  The worst for security that I've ever experienced was Amsterdam Schiphol. Absolute chaos at land side security and Americans on American airlines get extra inspection. When I was there they did the extra screening at the gate, but they've gone back and forth a bunch on where that's supposed to happen. Tegel OTOH was super quick albeit poorly connected to the rest of Berlin.
  - bobthepanda 4y ago
    At airports that do this I find it’s more common when US TSA adopts a rule first that people don’t want to subject all air passengers to. It was really common to have gate lines back when the US introduced that 3 oz bottle max.
    - inferiorhuman 4y ago
      The situation at AMS is that they kowtowed to the American government. The extra security doesn't apply to anyone flying a non-American airline (e.g. KLM) just Americans on American airlines flying to America. Used to be you'd have to go wander to a secondary screening station but when I flew through in 2019 they just pulled you out of line at the gate. I've not seen another airport that does this (in Europe or elsewhere).
vishnugupta 4y ago
I’ve been to some bad airports but by God Tegel is by far the worst I’ve ever been to.
- distances 4y ago
  Interestingly, Tegel (old terminal) is my favourite airport of all times due to the unmatched efficiency. It wasn't beautiful but it required a fraction of time compared to anything else.
amadeuspagel 4y ago
Second system syndrome?
probably_wrong 4y ago
If you listen to the podcast they explain that it wasn't his fault. Spoilers: he designed BER for fast passenger transit, just like Tegel, but the airport authorities wanted more shopping space. So they crammed as many shops as they could in detriment of the passenger experience. And then there's the situation with the rise of low-cost airlines who weren't allowed to use the jetway... I definitely recommend listening to the whole series. It's really well done and a must-listen for anyone with interest in project management.
- bobthepanda 4y ago
  This glosses over some stuff that is definitely his fault. The first issue that caused the issues, the fire system, was designed to suck air underground, because the architect did not want a fire system to obstruct his roof, never mind that smoke and hot air naturally rise. https://www.thegermanreview.de/p/the-real-story-behind-berlins-airport https://www.thegermanreview.de/p/the-real-story-behind-berli...
  - paganel 4y ago
    Maybe half-invented, but I read an architect's memoirs some years ago and he was saying how around the 1940s there were often cases when he and his chief-architect/supervisor at the time were actually chased out (like, physically) from the construction sites whenever they were coming in to add/make some changes that the constructor was considering as being too over the top/unrealistic. We need for that attitude to come back, at least in a metaphorical way, otherwise we'll continue being stuck with projects like this one.
    - bigDinosaur 4y ago
      Why would you chase the architect with his insane ideas away when you're getting paid by the hour and the project must be completed at some point because there's no alternative for the government? Unfortunately nobody appears to come off as not corrupt or idiotic in some way in this story.

ginko 4y ago

>They cared about the CI way more than about fast passenger throughput. Continuous integration?

sdoering 4y ago
Corporate Identity
wuyishan 4y ago
Corporate Identity
Rebelgecko 4y ago
Customer intelligence
labster 4y ago
Communist International
- selimthegrim 4y ago
  The passengers having lost the confidence of the airport, the airport has decided to dissolve them and elect others.
TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
Cat Immutability
therein 4y ago
Criminal Intent
dean177 4y ago
Consumer intent
yeetsFromHellL3 4y ago
4y ago