19 ms·

Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

• unsupp0rted 4y ago
  This looks like something I'd like to try but I don't like JSX (TSX). Is it possible to use Fresh with Vue in place of Preact, and write Vue components that split HTML templates from script and style tags?
  • lenkite 4y ago
    Yes, same here. Hate JSX/TSX. Would love to have choice of templating engine so can stick to pure HTML/CSS as much as possible. I still prefer simple template engines like Mustache which respect HTML.
    • rglover 4y ago
      You might dig Joystick https://github.com/cheatcode/joystick https://github.com/cheatcode/joystick. Takes the compositional aspects of JSX/React but uses a very thin abstraction over vanilla HTML/CSS/JS to do it. Joystick is full-stack (UI framework directly integrated with a Node.js back-end framework) but the UI part can be used on its own.
    • dsego 4y ago
      You could use Oak with Eta https://oakserver.github.io/oak/ https://oakserver.github.io/oak/ https://eta.js.org/ https://eta.js.org/
  • qbasic_forever 4y ago
    Look at Astro, it's very similar to Fresh but lets you plugin the client side framework of your choice like Vue: https://astro.build/ https://astro.build/ Sveltekit is kind of similar in style too with single file components containing a script block, HTML, styles, etc. vs. JSX style components.
    • unsupp0rted 4y ago
      I tried to like SvelteKit but there was a ton of magic and very, very poor documentation about that magic. Perhaps it's better documented now?
  • IshKebab 4y ago
    Just curious, why don't you like TSX? I find it much much better than HTML templates because you get actual IDE support with proper code completion and compile time type checking.
• tripice-is-love 4y ago
• ecares 4y ago
  Ryan: let's use web standards Also Ryan: let's use TSX lol
• maeln 4y ago
  Correct me if I am wrong, but this is basically server-side rendering with a smart system to re-render some component ("island") on the client ?
  • lucacasonato 4y ago
    Yes, that is the idea. Fresh is primarily a routing and templating system with built in client hydration.
• shafyy 4y ago
  I really like the idea of Deno and Fresh's philosophy also resonates with me (I'm a Rails guy). I would like to see an integrated ORM (can be an existing one) and testing framework though, before I would consider it a "full-stack" web framework.
  • kevinfiol 4y ago
    Not sure about ORM, but Postgres.js[0] works on Deno. For testing, Deno includes a built-in test runner and assertions via the std[1]. [0] https://github.com/porsager/postgres https://github.com/porsager/postgres [1] https://deno.land/manual/testing https://deno.land/manual/testing
  • lucacasonato 4y ago
    Yes, this is something I want to add in the future. We're just not quite there yet. My current plan is: 1. first class styling plugins 2. synchronized island state 3. built in data persistence
    • shafyy 4y ago
      Amazing. If I can make a wish for 1: Tailwind =)
      • lucacasonato 4y ago
        It is not documented, but run `deno run -A -r https://fresh.deno.dev https://fresh.deno.dev my-app --twind` :)
        • shafyy 4y ago
          Awesome, I will give this a spin soon =)
    • dimal 4y ago
      Since people are voting for Tailwind support, I have to throw in my vote for CSS modules! Even though Tailwind has a lot of momentum now, there are still a lot of people quietly getting things done with CSS Modules, CSS-in-JS, etc. :)
• upupandup 4y ago
  • gkapur 4y ago
    I would assume the idea is that this is native to the deno runtime whereas some other frameworks like NextJS and Remix are "node native?"
    • upupandup 4y ago
      Isn't DENO just AWS Lambda@Edge but you can't use anything other than JS/TS? edit: whoa whats with these downvotes? and im being accused of being a troll for asking a legitimate question? I am trying to evaluate this and my comments are being flagged for no reason Dang This is the second or third time just asking innocent questions on a YC linked company resulted in mass downvotes and flagging.
      • choward 4y ago
        • deleted 4y ago
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      • CodesInChaos 4y ago
        Deno is an open-source javascript runtime similar to node.js. You're talking about "Deno Deploy", which is a commercial service based on Deno and by the same company that maintains Deno. Your comment will look rather nonsensical to somebody who is only familiar with the runtime.
        • upupandup 4y ago
      • deleted 4y ago
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• leeoniya 4y ago
  > But client-side rendering is expensive; the framework often will ship hundreds of kilobytes of client-side JavaScript to users on each request. These JS bundles often do little more than rendering static content that could just as well have been served as plain HTML. server-side rendering for each request in V8 might be more expensive to host than client side rendering in V8? for a properly-chunked app, hopefully most requests for the larger vendor bundles are cached/JITed, and each request doesnt actually download much extra JS. there are also many frameworks faster than React (Solid, Marko, etc)
  • lucacasonato 4y ago
    > server-side rendering for each request in V8 might be more expensive to host than client side rendering in V8? Expensive not in money terms, but in user experience. Also: if you are doing e-commerce, 100ms added latency can cost you 7-8% in conversions. Spending 5% more on hosting to do SSR just makes economic sense.
    • leeoniya 4y ago
      > 100ms added latency can cost you 7-8% in conversions i hear this metric (or something equally absurd) cited frequently and have never seen it to be true in my own experience. i guess if you have to load a product page with 100 images (or assets) and each has 100ms network latency, then it will add up to much more than that. but 100ms for a single interaction or network request (e.g. process payment POST) is not going to move the needle on conversions. 100ms will feel instantaneous to 97% of users, and more than satisfactory for the remaining 3%. (i say this as someone who profiles aggressively and strives to optimize every stray 5ms in JS and every 1kb over the wire)
      • ketzo 4y ago
        I think that particular metric (or one very like it) was originally about… Amazon.com. So, y’know, maybe a slightly different ballgame.
        • 4y ago
• jrimbault 4y ago
  Are deno packages usable from the node side of the ecosystem ? and vice versa ?
  • rough-sea 4y ago
    You can use Node modules in Deno using https://esm.sh/ https://esm.sh/ You can use Deno modules in Node using https://github.com/denoland/dnt https://github.com/denoland/dnt
  • kevinfiol 4y ago
    Depends if your package uses any specific Deno/Node APIs. Deno also only supports ESM (which you should be using anyway). There is, however, a Node compatibility layer for Deno: https://deno.land/manual@v1.14.1/npm_nodejs/std_node https://deno.land/manual@v1.14.1/npm_nodejs/std_node
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
• kerryritter 4y ago
  I am very interested in seeing where this goes. I would love to see things get fleshed out a little more ala BlitzJS (auth, simple client/server session management, integrated database tooling), but I don't know if that goes along with Fresh's principles. But this is a very exciting start for this framework and looks like a great addition to the Deno ecosystem.
• hysan 4y ago
  Previous discussion on Fresh: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31720110 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31720110
• likortera 4y ago
  Am I the only one that think nowadays anything can be called "full stack"? For me "full stack" is something like Rails, Laravel, Django, etc. Or is it just being able to run code on the server enough to be "full stack"? I'm missing the translations system, the validations, the background jobs, the authentication system, authorization helpers, email sending, ORM or data access layer, testing framework, CSRF and related security protections, logging, error handling framework, etc, etc, etc. To me that's a "full stack" framework. If just running code on the backend and on the frontend is enough, then I can make a bash script a full stack framework, right?
  • gjsman-1000 4y ago
    I personally believe full-stack is fuzzy, because what if we also provided a UI layer, or a payment interface framework, or a notification handling system, or similar as part of the "full stack" system? It's hard to draw a line as to where something becomes "full stack." However... it's definitely closer to what I want "full stack" to mean than... this. Or a pile of bash scripts.
    • likortera 4y ago
      well, I agree.... but to me the baseline is, as I said, Rails/Laravel/Django... there's a common subset of things you need in like 99% of web applications that are not just a rest API or a landing page.
  • ssddanbrown 4y ago
    > Or is it just being able to run code on the server enough to be "full stack"? To me, "full stack" would entail having responsibility for logic on both the front-end and back-end, which Fresh does. Personally, I would not consider Laravel a full stack framework (Although it can work well with front-end frameworks to make a full-stack application). Instead I'd consider it a back-end framework.
    • likortera 4y ago
      In the case of laravel, I think that having by default a pretty awesome templating system (which even allows for components), a webpack based build system for frontend assets, easy way to serve, cache and bust assets, and a trivially easy way to submit forms and validate user input makes it pretty full stack. Same for Rails, and not event talking about HotWire/LiveWire with might not be considered parts of the framework per se. To me Laravels is pretty more close to a "full stack" framework than Fresh to be honest.
• colesantiago 4y ago
  Is there any company that is hiring that uses fresh or deno in production?
  • dwmbt 4y ago
    deno! edit: i just realized you probably meant another company... i believe Slack uses deno in prod, not sure if they're currently hiring. netlify, github, and supabase all use deno as well.
  • upupandup 4y ago
    • dwmbt 4y ago
      deno has been around for a little while, i think some commentators may have taken your responses as satirical because of how often deno shows up in conversations surrounding the web platform. think of deno as a node.js successor, it's a separate javascript runtime; with that, it'll need to compete with node's ecosystem (vast and diverse tooling). the deno company is spearheading that movement by creating things like Deno Deploy and now Fresh. i believe the gist of it is that people were excited about the concepts Deno had been brewing up, and now they're building things that will allow people to actually make use of deno. so, many people will look at this and say 'how is this different from ___?' and the reality is that for the most part, it's not. that's the point. you're making use of deno to do the same thing you did with node, and hopefully it's a little bit easier and/or more developer friendly. also fwiw, deno is not really yc-affiliated; the company is backed by Sequoia, Four Rivers Ventures, Rauch Capital, Long Journey Ventures, the Mozilla Corporation, Shasta Ventures, and i think some other angel investors like Nat Friedman (former GitHub CEO).
      • upupandup 4y ago
        today was the first time i heard of deno and i innocently asked whether it is something like AWS lambda edge. That was grounds for: - death threats to my twitter account - flagging all of my comments - justifying how i deserved it. Just wow.
• hrdwdmrbl 4y ago
  This sounds very similar to Hotwire https://hotwired.dev/ https://hotwired.dev/ Can someone who has used at least one of those chime in?
  • upupandup 4y ago
  • MatthiasPortzel 4y ago
    Hotwire and LiveWire make a network request to allow the server to re-render the component on user interaction. Fresh, in contrast, does SSR and then hydrates the components on page load, making it much more similar to React with SSR or Next.JS.
• BLanen 4y ago
  Does this work like how remixjs and nextjs(with the next RFC[0]) with react server components[1]? [0] https://nextjs.org/blog/layouts-rfc https://nextjs.org/blog/layouts-rfc [1] https://reactjs.org/blog/2020/12/21/data-fetching-with-react-server-components.html https://reactjs.org/blog/2020/12/21/data-fetching-with-react...
  • chrisco255 4y ago
    Not exactly, because this example from Deno is using Preact, a stripped down React-like framework. Server Components relies on React fiber and the latest async features in newest version of React. They do both aim to limit the JS sent down the wire though.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• stoicjumbotron 4y ago
  How does this compare against Astro: https://astro.build/ https://astro.build/ ?
• skybrian 4y ago
  For those websites that can use it (like a blog), it seems like static site generation would be better, to cache the database requests? Then you can run in the free tier of Netlify or using GitHub pages, for example. Or to do the opposite, for a single-player website where there aren't any server requests to cache, a client-only website can run offline. Fresh looks good for multi-player websites that are unavoidably making database requests interactively, though.
  • MatthiasPortzel 4y ago
    I similarly wish Fresh did full server side generation. Even Next.JS has a tool to export as a static site. Maybe it will come to Fresh at some point, or maybe it’s there and just not well documented. I’m using NanoJSX with Deno to render JSX on the server and spit the result into a file, but I’m having to write a lot of SSG stuff myself, (like logic to loop over files).
    • justshowpost 4y ago
      Yeah, for their examples there isn’t even a reason to use dynamic rendering instead of static rendering (pre-build a static site), as the response doesn’t change for different requests. Dynamic rendering only pays of if you do something more complex, like authentication, etc. But I guess static rendering would go against their mantra of “no build step”, which even currently is actually false, as they need to generate the manifest file. See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31723205 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31723205
    • jokethrowaway 4y ago
      They're probably planning on making another vercel way and tie in future customers to their platform running v8 isolates. I understand it from a business point of view but it's bad for users and for performance. Same thing happened to images in next. The plugins to have optimized images in next are all broken and the official one use a "free" dynamic route offered by vercel.
• la_fayette 4y ago
  Maybe I am getting all wrong, but this sounds like PHP.
  • hbn 4y ago
    I'm excited for server-side rendering to return to the mainstream so that in a few years I can revolutionize the industry with my ingenious new idea to render things on the client with Javascript!
    • orangeoxidation 4y ago
      You might even land the ultimate innovation of doing both by "inventing" AJAX! (Just call it something new, like piped hydration)
  • lcfcjs 4y ago
  • deleted 4y ago
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  • tdy721 4y ago
    Yes, but the templates are written in JSX. No quoting nightmares, nesting is a breeze, the server side APIs speak like the browser ones, and it's really fast. With deno.dev hosting on the edge, it's server side like php, but way better. I used to like WordPress, now I love Deno.
    • la_fayette 4y ago
      thx for your comment, as i said i might get all wrong. Still think PHP template engines like Twig are well designed and make you highly productive. Personally, I feel JSX is a code smell, as it mixes UI snippets with code. But this is maybe my old school software engineering attitude. I am just waiting for the next OSCommerce package written in JSX...
      • 4y ago
• shroompasta 4y ago
  React is here to stay and will have jquery like longevity. Sure, performance wise, it isn't the best, but performance isn't an end all be all. What separates react from the rest of the group is the maturity of React Native. If Discord is betting on React Native, so too can it be used for a lion's share of applications out there. When you're a startup deciding between technologies, usually you're a 1-5 man shop. If you have the capital to blow, you can build separate teams for native + web, and separating native even further with Kotlin/Java and Swift with your choice for the web platform. (I'm not trying to the Dart ecosystem just to only use Flutter, in which, Flutter-Web isn't SEO friendly) Or you can just use React + RN and essentially have one team and save you anywhere from 500k-2m in hiring. This is why React is so strong. It's not because it's "performant", it's because it's practical, and even for performance it's good enough.
  • elforce002 4y ago
    Interesting. My company (small startup) went with flutter and vuejs and now we're switching to nextjs for all of our web apps and we're loving using it. Flutter is awesome for mobile dev. For web? Not so much.
  • pier25 4y ago
    > React is here to stay and will have jquery like longevity. I don't think React will ever disappear... but I seriously doubt it will ever become as popular and ubiquitous as jQuery. Even today, React's market share is nowhere near close jQuery. https://w3techs.com/technologies/comparison/js-jquery,js-react https://w3techs.com/technologies/comparison/js-jquery,js-rea...
• tuyiown 4y ago
  The post seems to claim that there is no drawbacks others approach with the 0 bytes of js, and link to a blog post [1] that absolutely tells nothing how to properly manage back/front state and rendering consistency between the rendering and the «islands» on the client. [1] https://jasonformat.com/islands-architecture https://jasonformat.com/islands-architecture
  • gherkinnn 4y ago
    Without having built in the "Island Architecture", it looks exactly like a page of old where you serve an entire page, accept form submissions, return the updated page, and make small elements interactive (islands). These islands contain only minimal local state and global updates happen through the aforementioned form submissions. The difference being it's all one isomorphic (?) React-y Deno codebase instead of the tangled PHP+jQuery mess. Promising enough, if you ask me.
• pritambarhate 4y ago
  This can be the killer app that Deno needs. As of now there is no specific reason for most of the people to try Deno as Node with its plethora of frameworks works and every one can choose their stack as per their taste. But if they can make Fresh sufficiently better (more cohesive and/or performant on both client and server side) and more feature rich on the backend (ORM + Workers/Queuing) with instant deploy then more people might consider switching.
  • andruby 4y ago
    I didn’t find a mention id this Fresh framework could also run on Node. In other words: is it relying on anything deno-specific?
    • pxeger1 4y ago
      Deno and Node are not generally compatible: - their module/packaging systems are totally different - their APIs for interacting with the system are different
      • ecares 4y ago
        It took a friend and I 2 days last year to build a compatibility layer that allowed to run all the tests of Deno on Node.
      • threatofrain 4y ago
        How far along is the story of cross compilation for the two ecosystems?
        • lucacasonato 4y ago
          Node -> Deno: https://esm.sh https://esm.sh Deno -> Node: https://github.com/denoland/dnt https://github.com/denoland/dnt
        • Already__Taken 4y ago
          I had no joy trying to get a node JIRA library to run under deno with the various platforms. So still some way to go. Didn't seem far off. IIRC axios was the problem.
• canacrypto 4y ago
  Nothing new under the sun. This is just the latest in the pendulum swinging back to the same server-side strategy that Php/Django do. There's a reason we moved away that! Client-side apps are an elegant architecture that takes advantage of computing power on edge devices.
  • triyambakam 4y ago
    There's always room to learn more and make it better. They didn't make Fresh just from a whim
    • upupandup 4y ago
• fks 4y ago
  Congrats to the Deno team on v1.0! If you’re interested in something similar for the Node.JS ecosystem, check out Astro (https://astro.build https://astro.build). Fresh’s Zero-JS island architecture approach was largely inspired by it.
  • eyelidlessness 4y ago
    A couple more for folks interested in prior/similar art: - Marko, made and used by eBay, which had been doing islands/partial hydration for years - Qwik, made (and I’m pretty sure used) by Builder.io (and one of the original Angular creators), which only loads/executes JS as needed for interaction. Not quite partial hydration, it resumes state serialized into the HTML (sort of conceptually similar client side to Alpine etc)
• ponyous 4y ago
  I listened to a conference talk[0] where Dylan talks about fresh framework and he says quoting: "We have this little project at Deno ... it's not a web framework that we're really promoting or you know intending to utilise long term. More of kind of a demo of what this post unix web frameworks might look like" Is it worth investing in this now? It really put me off. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBcFJmQ6UVM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBcFJmQ6UVM at 15:50
  • dsherret 4y ago
    Fresh has had a lot of development since then. See the "Production Ready" section in blog post for the latest thoughts: > Fresh 1.0 is a stable release and can be relied upon for production use. Much of Deno's public web services use Fresh (for example the site you are reading this blog post on now!). This does not mean we are done with Fresh. We have many more ideas to improve user and developer experience.
  • hestefisk 4y ago
    “Post Unix”?
    • naikrovek 4y ago
      well many of us think that the excellent ideas of computing in the 1970s (those that produced Unix) are no longer the best ways to do things, and believe that the community should be innovating much more. a lot of those innovations are over 50 years old, now. do we REALLY believe that the Unix Philosophy is the best thing in the history of computing? past and future? really? I don't. and what about in another 50 years? how about 1000 years? at some point, many much better ideas will emerge. that's what "post-Unix" means. the things that come after this Unix thing we're hung up on.
      • avl999 4y ago
        Massive eyeroll
        • 4y ago
• hestefisk 4y ago
  How I the experience with this framework in terms of latency? It’s good to reduce front end size but the wire ought to get hot if the browser has to constantly refresh from the server with simple view changes.
• somethingAlex 4y ago
  From what I gather, it seems like this would be a good choice if a portion of clients are on low end devices and it is more of a MPA/SPA hybrid - not a full blown web app. A lot of E-commerce and informational sites do fall into the MPA/SPA hybrid bucket. If you really are making a web app (think dropbox, cloud based enterprise software) I think you'd reach a point where there is so much interactivity that you are essentially shipping Preact, custom component JS, and just a little bit of static HTML. The latter bucket is the only one which saves the user network and parsing time (and I doubt much of it.) I'd still go with a properly chunked SPA for true web apps.
• wly_cdgr 4y ago
  I hate web development. I swear it's worse than the literal fashion world
• valgaze 4y ago
  All the activity around V8 Isolates + "workers" is so cool-- exceptional performance, don't need to think about regions, and CDN-like benefits Shopify's new store-builder thinks this way too: https://github.com/Shopify/hydrogen https://github.com/Shopify/hydrogen
  • IshKebab 4y ago
    The only issue I have with it is that it's a pretty niche application. I think most sites will have a single database probably in a single location, in which case you don't gain anything from edge compute as far as I can tell. Maybe if these things came with some kind of fancy "edge database" it would cover normal use cases, but they never seem to mention that so I assume it doesn't exist.
    • justshowpost 4y ago
      Single-instance private FaaS (as opposed to multi-instance public FaaS) allow to implement edge databases, assuming there is persistence. Currently only Cloudflare offers this with Durable Objects and the industry seems to not have caught on, maybe not even understood, yet.
• aabhay 4y ago
  We are using the pre release version of Nuxt v3 in production. I really like Nuxt’s developer experience and it is my go-to for front end development. As a backend, I truly don’t pay much attention to whether it’s Firebase + Workers, Vercel, Cloudflare, etc. The framework basically does it all under the hood for us.
  • WORMS_EAT_WORMS 4y ago
    I disagree but glad I saw this. I think as these edge runtime things get more feature rich, it's going to pay off to be all-in on one that does it perfectly exactly optimized with an easy pathway vs expecting third party packages to figure out an implementation and stay up to date.
    • aabhay 4y ago
      What kinds of feature richness are we to expect from edge runtimes? It seems like it’s just like a CDN that can execute code.
• ignoramous 4y ago
  > Try Deno Deploy - you will be surprised at the speed and simplicity. And egress fees ;) I must say though, hashrock's illustrations for Deno are simply stupendous.
• WORMS_EAT_WORMS 4y ago
  Full stack for Edge just makes sense to be both server, client, and the software that connects it. Deno will have this with some amazing edge render perfection figured out if you go all-in. Vercel has Next + Svelte. Then Cloudflare has "Adaptor" packages and then a simple functions routing folder in Pages (which is def not this...). I wonder if Cloudflare will regret still not really providing a "Cloudflare Way" of doing things.
• ArrayBoundCheck 4y ago
  I don't know what deno is and it appears that I'm the only one. Does this mean it's not for me? Would I want deno on my tiny 1 visit per hour website?
  • kevinfiol 4y ago
    Maybe/maybe not? Deno is a new-er runtime for JavaScript and TypeScript by the creator of Node.js. It's essentially an effort to correct the perceived shortcomings of Node.js with a new runtime that is: 1. compatible with TypeScript, 2. aligns closer with browser APIs, and 3. comes with a standard library modeled after Go's. It would be great for a 1 visit per hour site, but so would PHP, or just an index.html file. Hard to really answer that question without knowing what your site is.
  • bastardoperator 4y ago
    I keep hearing and reading about Deno too but I don't understand why I or my project would need or want it or consider switching to it. What does it give me, how is it better, why is it better. I'm confused on why I would pay for hosting? You're not alone.
    • kevinfiol 4y ago
      If you keep reading about it and still haven't been able to answer those questions, chances are you probably don't need it. The strengths of Deno over Node are bulleted all over its homepage, but you likely already knew that.
• agustinbena 4y ago
  Client side rendering many cases, could be not only cheaper for the host, but for the client also, when the JS was loaded, the new content for the pages could be fetched faster than the new static html, not to mention the ugly experience of page loading.
• justshowpost 4y ago
  Now only get Deno Deploy to implement dynamic imports, so fresh can remove its build step. Yes, they also firmly keep the claim that fresh doesn’t have a build step. Hint: It does [^1]. They’ve just hidden it for most people by making it part of the local testing. [^1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31723205 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31723205
• spookyuser 4y ago
  Have recently been getting pretty deep into Hugo for a 3rd project and while I love how fast the static sites Hugo builds are. I absolutely hate how every tool I love using takes hours to setup and how it take hours to debug random tooling integration issues between Hugo and node like postcss etc. so much so that despite how much I know Hugo and static sites in general are more often than not the way to go for a lot of things I have been recently reconsidering how much perfect optimization is worth if it takes so much effort to get when something like fresh can deliver what looks like a much better developer experience though perhaps without the perfect optimization
• fgcoppola 4y ago
  Are there any examples of things made with Fresh available?
  • kentor 4y ago
    I was pleasantly surprised to find that they finally dogfood Fresh for https://deno.land/ https://deno.land/ Source can be found here https://github.com/denoland/dotland https://github.com/denoland/dotland
• mbgerring 4y ago
  In 2007 I was writing websites that were mostly rendered on a server, with JavaScript used selectively in some places for interactivity I remember writing at the time that moving everything to the client was solving one problem (poor encapsulation of JavaScript-powered front-end components) with another (needlessly rendering everything on the client) The industry moved toward CSR anyway, and I had to learn it to continue having a job. And now, here we are. Why do we do this to ourselves as an industry?
  • progmetaldev 4y ago
    While I know it's not trendy, I'm still building plenty of both informational websites using Umbraco/.NET as well as web applications, using progressive enhancement. On occasion a client will have a concern that requires doing CSR (such as adding an unlimited number of "rows" in a virtual table or similar where a round-trip would prevent them from getting work done in a timely fashion), but for the most part the websites and applications I build server-rendered are very fast and performant. I still use front-end tools for minification/bundling/transpilation, along with caching, to get fast load and execution times.
  • int_19h 4y ago
    Because OOH LOOK A SHINY NEW FRAMEWORK!
  • triyambakam 4y ago
    Because this isn't the same as what you were writing in 2007. This is an improvement on that. There is some degree of chasing what is new, but I think it is more so that all of this is a process of learning which causes the focus to oscillate between different extremes.
  • jerojero 4y ago
    I'm guessing it's a bit of a pendulum, this is seen in so many areas of human society. We move in a direction and someone says "we ought to move in the complete opposite way" and so we do, then after some time it is clear this new approach isn't working out and we come back to the other side of the pendulum. With time, of course, it is likely that we end up in an equilibrium at the middle. In reality, we don't know what we like and what we don't like until we experience it.
• z3t4 4y ago
  If you want speed/performance. Make your website/app cache friendly!
• coding123 4y ago
  I'm typically pretty hard on Deno (mostly surrounding dependencies), but this is probably an extremely good use-case for it. I might have to pick this up for side projects that need fast iteration.
• crabmusket 4y ago
  `deno run -A` So we're giving up on "it's more secure"? EDIT: I'm actually a real fan of Deno, but that was never because of its security promises. Security is both technical and cultural, and I think cases like this suggest that while the technical side was always shaky, the cultural side is just as weak. If first-party material promotes the idea of running scripts with `-A`, then that's the direction the community will be led.
  • mayama 4y ago
    Security makes more sense for deno when your host your app in serverless v8 hosting environments like deno. They don't even have a way to specify all permissions. v8 isolates are the new cool thing in serverless hosting especially with wasm providing way to run c/rust code on v8. We have to see how this will pan out compared to containers.
    • crabmusket 4y ago
      Isn't the hosting environment providing the security in that case? I can run Nodejs code on AWS Lambda, and CloudFlare also has their own edge runtime environment which is based on v8 isolates but isn't Deno.
      • mayama 4y ago
        What I meant was that you could emulate locked down version that deno or cloudflare provide in your local during development with the granularity of permissions. I though lambda was a full container running app, did they add isolate environment to it?
        • crabmusket 4y ago
          Oh I see what you're saying. Yes, while I'm not an expert I suppose Lambdas are less isolated than CF workers or Deno Deploy, while being pragmatically more isolated than e.g. a regular VM.
• quickthrower2 4y ago
  The issue I have is, if I understand correctly, you need to go to the server for everything. Their sauce is of course that server is close, maybe 10ms away. But it needs to be online, and so do you. If most things interactive on your site need a round trip BEFORE the interactivity (e.g. a Like button) then this is OK. However if you are writing a web app which does a lot of stuff offline and there is no reason for it to not work offline then this is an issue. Where it is a bit sucky is something like clicking an expand button, and needing a network request for basically setting a {display:'block'} style on an element. I might be strawman-ing a bit there because you would probably chuck in a tiny JS script to do that one job and not religiously follow "no JS". But I am sure there are good examples of wanting offline capability. However this is not a showstopper: This model is great for some things, bad for others. It is a welcome new choice in the palette of web dev options. I imagine it might be premature optimization for many sites though, given that it is a trade off. If you care about minimal JS to the client, another approach might be to use https://svelte.dev/ https://svelte.dev/. I have not tried it, but I am curious.
  • swuecho 4y ago
    That's exactly the island in Fresh does. Use Island for interactivity
    • ChefGabe 4y ago
      And what happens to 60fps when your server is 100+ms away
• krosaen 4y ago
  Next.js also has no js only server side rendered support in alpha https://nextjs.org/docs/advanced-features/react-18/server-components https://nextjs.org/docs/advanced-features/react-18/server-co...
• thinkpad13 4y ago
  anyone could convince me why we should use this instead using battle tested framework like ruby on rails or phoenix?