23 ms·

EU vote to ban all sales of combustion engine vehicles by 2035

117 points by linebug 4y ago

WalterGR 4y ago
5 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31671328 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31671328
adrianN 4y ago
Better than nothing, but the date is a bit far away if we want carbon neutrality before (or even around) 2050. Cars have fairly long service times. Hopefully the market will phase out ICEs earlier than that except for niche uses.
- karamanolev 4y ago
  It's interesting to see how there are two top-level comments, one saying the date is too far away and the other saying that it's a short period for such a transition. I guess both are true in some way - it's really challenging to decarbonise quickly, but we need even quicker, because we're way past reasonable in terms of the environmental situation.
  - skeletal88 4y ago
    Electric cars are still ridiculously expensive, don't have the same range and features etc, why would I want one? I live in a cold place, cold isn't good for batteries and engines heat the car inside, with electric cars heating reduces the range drastically
    - Sankozi 4y ago
      We need to tell that to people in Norway where 85% of new cars are plugin vehicles. Electric cars can run on average 100 km/h over 10 hours if you plan your trip well (and have a bit of luck with free spots on plugin stations). Apart from charging time I don't see where plugin vehicle is worse than ICE one when it comes to features.
      - packetlost 4y ago
        > Electric cars can run on average 100 km/h over 10 hours That's below highway speed here, and everything is at least twice the distance in America than you think it is. The nearest major city from me is 240km away, the second is 435km and it gets -34C here (the average in winter being about -10C). It just isn't feasible if you aren't in a dense metro area and only ever use your vehicle to commute (which is by far not the case).
        adrianN 4y ago
        Average trip lengths in America are not that much longer than in Europe. On the rather rare occasions when you do several hundred kilometers in a single day, stopping for fifteen minutes to recharge every two hours or so doesn't increase travel time all that much. You have to take breaks anyway.
    - marssaxman 4y ago
      > Electric cars are still ridiculously expensive, don't have the same range and features etc, why would I want one? Are you under the age of 65? Do you have children? Do you expect that you will ever have children? If so, you want either an electric car or no car at all, in preference to a fossil-fuel-powered car, because you want the planet to remain hospitable for humans.
    - benhurmarcel 4y ago
      That's exactly why they plan to either ban ICE or tax the hell out of them. Because society needs you to switch to electric, so they need to make you want one. It's not fast enough to make electrics better, so we need to make ICE worse as well.
- JulianMorrison 4y ago
  There may be a faster fall-off than you'd think, because of feedback effects. Same way film cameras stopped being popular and then you couldn't get the films, or get them developed, so they got more unpopular, repeat until extinct. If fuel stations start closing down and you can't get the parts, it won't matter if fuel cars have decades of good service life ahead.
  - bambax 4y ago
    Yes, that's what I'm thinking too. It's a vicious circle (or maybe a virtuous one?) but once fuel stations start closing in droves it will become very impractical to own a petrol car.
    - zbrozek 4y ago
      That cycle will undoubtedly be slower for vehicles than cameras. Much larger, much more expensive population, covering a broader range of niche cases. I think very highly of my EV, but I'm not under the illusion that all fossil fueled vehicles will evaporate quickly. Certainly I expect another 10-15 years out of my 22-year-old truck.
      - Symbiote 4y ago
        A 22 year old van is already too old to be driven in many European cities. For example, vans must be manufactured on 1 January 2007 or later to be used in Copenhagen. In July the date will become 1 January 2012 [1]. That doesn't yet apply to cars, and I think the truck counts as a car. It does apply in some cities in Germany, where the limit depends on the fuel -- petrol cars are often limited to 30 years (1992), diesel to 2007. I expect these regulations to tighten as electric cars become widespread, and the various exemptions to become more stringent. [1] https://miljoezoner.dk/en/regulations-and-vehicles/regulation-for-vans/ https://miljoezoner.dk/en/regulations-and-vehicles/regulatio... And https://urbanaccessregulations.eu/ https://urbanaccessregulations.eu/
        zbrozek 4y ago
- packetlost 4y ago
  As someone in the American Midwest: LMAO. ICE cars are definitely not going anywhere anytime soon here.
devoutsalsa 4y ago
I wonder how realistic that is. That’s a huge shift to make in only 13 years. I guess we’ll see!
- toyg 4y ago
  It isn't. In about 5-10 years we will see a big push to delay that deadline, or even quietly shelve it. The industrial sector in particular is nowhere near switching, and they are critical - by and large, distribution relies on rubber, and that rubber is not going to be electric in 10 years time.
  - guiriduro 4y ago
    Hopefully, forceful policy can ensure it happens before environmental collapse and secondary effects like resource war achieve the same effects in less desirable ways. Fear of the latter should enable policymakers to be more ruthless about the former.
    - vetinari 4y ago
      > before environmental collapse EU has less than 10% share in the CO~2 production. We are not going to make a difference even by going medieval today, and the rest of the world isn't going to care, especially as they will watch us to self-destruct.
      - guiriduro 4y ago
        You think radical policy is limited to internal? What happens if I don't trade with you unless you verifiably stop cutting down your rainforest? If I exclude your organisations from import unless they achieve some audited environmental standards, adopt EVs etc. Being a rich trading bloc like the EU can certainly have important and deliberate externalities.
      - freemint 4y ago
        Now do historic emissions, give all countries the right to develop and then the EU should very much cut it's future emissions for things to even out at all.
alexandargyurov 4y ago
The whole of Europe including the Eastern block? Good luck by 2035
- mrtksn 4y ago
  As per tradition, Germany and beyond will switch to electric and the diesel/gas cars will flood the Easter European markets.
  - alexandargyurov 4y ago
    If they're cheap and good we'll buy them :) Germans make *some* great cars
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      Meh, German cars are good as long as you're within the warranty/lease period. Out of warranty, I wouldn't touch any modern German car. Japanese brands tend to be more reliable.
      - alexandargyurov 4y ago
        Yeah, fair enough, same with washing machines and fridges. Toyota are good, old Land Rovers from about 1998 to early 2000s were built to last - now, not so much. The good thing is we can see which modern cars weren't built to last and not buy them :)
    - danielrpa 4y ago
      German cars aren't what they used to be. I know because my wife owns a Made in Germany Volkswagen that breaks a lot more often than my other car, a US-made Hyundai.
      - alexandargyurov 4y ago
        I'm interested in the US-made car market. I don't know much but something on my todo list to learn. I've heard good things about the US making good cars
hkopr 4y ago
This is good from an environmental perspective, if (and that is a big if) the electricity is generated from clean sources. The societal implications are worrisome. Electric vehicles tend to track and surveil their "owners", fast charging is centralized and can be tracked as well. We have seen how far dystopian regimes like Trudeau's are willing to go. Instead of freezing the bank accounts using enabling laws, he could also shut off the grid or exclude specific vehicles. Mandatory kill switches for vehicles will come in handy as well. I'm sure the army and police armored vehicles for population suppression will still have combustion engines.
- JonAtkinson 4y ago
  All vehicles, no matter how old, or what form of propulsion, are tracked via the ANPR systems which have been built over the last three decades. This is certainly true in Europe, though I understand that those networks aren't as mature in the USA yet (anecdotal, and I could be very wrong about that). I've yet to hear about any vehicles with 'kill switches'. Is there any evidence of this, or is it just a possibility?
  - shrubble 4y ago
    A reality since at least 2009: OnStar remotely disabled the gas pedal... https://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2009/10/onstar-gps-carjacking.html https://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2009/10/onstar-g...
- adrianN 4y ago
  What you say about electric cars is also true for new fossil cars.
  - wickedsight 4y ago
    Older ones too. If anything, newer cars are getting more secure in this, because if laws like GDPR. Many cars don't even really wipe data when you do a 'factory reset'. They just don't show it anymore, but if you get to the source data, you can still see it. Think about that next time you sell your car.
ngcazz 4y ago
Sounds like today is the worst day to sell my 1.6l diesel, but tomorrow will be worse.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  No really. Any semiconductor shortage will see the value of existing second hand cars on the road shoot up. Especially those with fewer electronics and high reliability. In fact, the most desirable second hand cars (in Europe at least) are those form around mid '00s, as they had enough electronics to be relatively fuel efficient and safe, but still be reliable enough to not get you dragged to the dealership because one of the million electronics on board of the cars of today decided to have a bad day (modern cars a reliability nightmares, making out of warranty repairs super expensive, basically pushing people to old cars).
me_me_me 4y ago
Environment aside, this is not realistic with just aim to ban combustion engines. You need to fund groundbreaking infrastructural changes at national level. The last mile of logistics channels will not work with mythical electric trucks. Those does not exist because they make no sense. So how are we going to flow all those goods to markets?
- Al-Khwarizmi 4y ago
  Even though the headline says "vehicles", the ban is only for cars and vans. As far as I know, it doesn't affect trucks (or buses, tractors, etc.)
- phtrivier 4y ago
  Interestingly, the "large-haul trucks" seem to be excluded from the deal (it is discussed separately.) [1] I would say that the _very last mile_ of delivery (especially inside city centers) is properly covered by EVs (French Postal Service is claiming to have "the largest fleet of EVs in the world" [2].) Those vehicles have predictable routes, reasonnable usage hours, and a relatively small radius of travel; a battery of 100km or range, recharged at night, seems like a good fit. It's of course _much_ trickier for the kind of trucks that cross over Europe to ship veggies. I would not be surprised if those get to use fossil fuels a bit longer (maybe with higher efficiency requirements, higher proportion of plant-based fuels, incentives to go for H2 even if it does not make _complete_ environement sense, etc...) [1] https://www.liberation.fr/economie/transports/interdiction-du-moteur-thermique-en-2035-quid-des-motos-et-des-camions-20220610_MBBBJCFC5NH3JJY2LCVPISYU2E/#:~:text=Union%20europ%C3%A9enne-,Interdiction%20du%20moteur%20thermique%20en%202035,des%20motos%20et%20des%20camions%3F&text=Le%20texte%20vot%C3%A9%20ce%20mercredi,dans%20dans%20un%20second%20temps https://www.liberation.fr/economie/transports/interdiction-d.... [2] https://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2019/04/08/la-poste-numero-un-mondial-des-flottes-branchees_5447176_3234.html https://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2019/04/08/la-poste-...
- crote 4y ago
  The literal last mile is the easiest part, actually. Electric trucks with a range of 300km are already widely available, and that's more than enough for local use. Besides, in Europe there are pretty stringent rules about driving times already. You need to take a 45-minute break every 4.5 hours, which at 90 kmh is every 400 km. You can split that into a 15-minute break and a 30-minute one, requiring an even shorter range. Meanwhile, Germany is trialing overhead wires on highways, which would allow for an even more reduced range. The way I see it, the truck isn't the problem: building the charging infrastructure is.
LAC-Tech 4y ago
The EU is the most unintentionally hilarious confederation. It's completely inside out. Coordinate foreign affairs? Nope Able to police external borders? Nope Credible military deterrence in its near abroad? Not even remotely But banning IC engines, mandating dongle size, and giving the world cookie popups? You bet!
- AndrewOMartin 4y ago
  Well, yeah. If you put it like that.
- ChemSpider 4y ago
  You must be living under a rock: Coordinate foreign affairs? => Yes (e. g. Russia sanctions) Able to police external borders? => Yes, Frontex Credible military deterrence in its near abroad? => When was the last time anyone attacked an EU country?
  - LAC-Tech 4y ago
    Coordinate foreign affairs? => Yes (e. g. Russia sanctions) US led and coordinated Able to police external borders? => Yes, Frontex Famously ineffective in 2015. Credible military deterrence in its near abroad? => When was the last time anyone attacked an EU country? The near abroad of the EU is not the EU, they are its neighbouring states.
    - arez 4y ago
      in 2015 it was agreed to let people in. Luckily we don't have gates that we open and close, but the countries in the EU agreed that this was a humanitarian crisis and decided to take some amounts of foreigners in.
      - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
        >in 2015 it was agreed to let people in There was no common EU agreement to do that though. It was mostly Germany posturing for good PR and to try to save their ageing demographics and supplement their manufacturing sector which is dependent on imported cheap labor to stay competitive, as the cheap labor from the Eastern Block dried up. Denmark and other EU members chose to opt out from the refugee sharing scheme back then, denying to take them in, and this was also one of the main factors that violently triggered Brexit as lots of brits feared the idea of having to be obliged to take in unwanted people just because that's what Germany was suggesting to other members. All it did was create dissident among EU members and help break up the EU.
amelius 4y ago
Bad news for Ferrari et al.
- ferongr 4y ago
  The elites will not be deprived of their toys. They'll surely make some exception for cars they like using.
- xwolfi 4y ago
  Well if Porsche can do it, they can try at least! Their logo is a horse, the next one might be a dirty old combustion engine lol
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  I doubt it. Most likely the EU will have concessions in place to protect the local high-value, small volume, performance & luxury halo-brands like Ferrari, Lambo, Bugatti, Pagani, etc. A lot of their multi millionaire customers value that these cars have several moving parts that go bang on dead dinosaur juice, causing them to go vroom when you hit the gas pedal while making loud crackling and popping sounds from the exhaust, as the several pistons ramp up to over 8.000 RMP, so they will pay a premium for that in an all electric world (just look at the failure of electric motorcycles in the west).
  - toyg 4y ago
    I hope that will also means the motorcycle sector. It's a niche, it's already very efficient, and despite efforts the electric versions are nowhere near feature parity.
- CalRobert 4y ago
  Ferrari is welcome to produce non-combustion vehicles. If Porsche can upset the purists by making an SUV (it's been a while but there was some outrage about basically getting in to the minivan market) then Ferrari can make an EV.
  - arethuza 4y ago
gg82 4y ago
The EU probably needs to worry more about what they are going to power their vehicles for the next few years at least since they don't want to use Russian Oil.
- Phurist 4y ago
  With rapeseed oil :)
- Retric 4y ago
  EU doesn’t use oil to run it’s electric grid. There is enough Natural Gas production in the EU + UK to cover electricity production. It’s home heating that needs imported gas.
  - freemint 4y ago
    And heavy industry also depends on natural gas.
    - Retric 4y ago
      Even so, Russia is only supplying ~10% of Europe’s total natural gas consumption.
slackfan 4y ago
And they will vote until they vote correctly.
paganel 4y ago
So I guess that leaves my country a little under 15 years to get out of the EU. Manageable.
- helsinkiandrew 4y ago
  Most EU countries (Germany, France etc) already have plans to phase out sales of ICE by 2035 anyway.
- ianbooker 4y ago
  This is an interesting guessing game. What country could it be? You must be thinking that automotive will suffer from this, this leaves France and Germany on the table. Arguably, a lot of the sector is spread across the EU, but this spread is facilitated by the common market itself. Since France has basically endless opportunities arising from its "carbon neutral" power generation, are you thinking of Germany?
  - paganel 4y ago
    Romania, and while we certainly benefited economically from entering the EU (even though on a societal level the discussion is a lot more complicated, a lot of small and medium towns are now basically deserted) this type of measures that might make sense for wealthier Germany and France are certainly regressive for countries like mine. To put it more simply, we're too poor for this "eco" green-washing that is imposed on us from Brussels. I guess we could all make our bags and move to wealthier Germany and France, I mean, those of us that still decided to remain here, but that would be bad for our society at a national level (see the previous point about empty towns).
    - CalRobert 4y ago
      The economic challenge I understand, but how is this greenwashing? Transportation is one of the biggest sources of CO2 emissions.
- CalRobert 4y ago
  Why?
Ekaros 4y ago
Hmm, now in 10 years vote to move this date forward? Or will the 2034 be year with most combustion engine vehicles ever sold in EU?
- ur-whale 4y ago
  > now in 10 years vote to move this date forward? You're assuming you'll be able to vote on the issue. The EU isn't a particularly democratic system, and even assuming that the question will be asked of politicians and not simply implemented by non-elected bureaucrats, being able to poll the entire voter base on an issue such as this one is damn near impossible in the current system. Also, last time an actual EU-wide referendum was implemented, the results were basically ignored because the outcome didn't suit the bureaucrats.
traveler01 4y ago
People who use private planes to fly around voting on these kind of stuff. Democracy huh...
- CalRobert 4y ago
  Now you know how it feels when the government takes your tax money that you earned from a job to which you commuted by bike and gives it to motorists so they can buy EV's that will then clog the city through which you are cycling. Always someone to blame.... this is a positive step.
- MagnumOpus 4y ago
  Unlike US senators, 99% of EU parliament MEPs don't have the means for private planes (or even to charter them regularly).
dgellow 4y ago
If you have a combustion engine and want to change to electric, who will buy it from you? Or how do you get rid of your old car? There will be basically no demand in Europe. Just wondering what will happen to all these existing cars, it’s nice to know new cars will be electric but what are people supposed to do with their current ones? Lot of them won’t be usable in cities due to low-emission zoning policies. Edit: it’s a genuine question, I don’t understand the logistic behind it, other than driving your old car to Turkey and sell it there, which isn’t realistic for the millions of existing cars. I asked it a few times in the past but didn’t get satisfying answers.
- CalRobert 4y ago
  Crushed and recycled, presumably. A new ICE car bought today will be usable for over a decade. Of course, the whole point is to make combustion vehicle purchases unappealing, and telling people their resale will be close to nothing helps with this!
- Epa095 4y ago
  I am willing to bet a beer that it's only for new cars. The article links to a description : >In a plenary vote on Wednesday, MEPs adopted their position on proposed rules to revise the CO2 emissions performance standards for *new* cars and vans with 339 votes in favour, 249 against and 24 abstentions. Many of the eu rules for cars are not retroactive. E.g I can use a old car without lighting for the number plate, even though new cars must have light on them.
  - morsch 4y ago
    Yes, this only applies to new cars, not used cars. You will be able to sell and buy used cars after 2035 if this proposal comes into effect. Note that while the parliament of the EU has approved the proposal, it still needs approval from the council of ministers.
    - Helmut10001 4y ago
      Yes, only new cars. I think it this could also mean the reverse for used cars: They get more expensive because everybody wants them and no new are produced.
jpalomaki 4y ago
"The law is not yet final. Wednesday's vote confirms the parliament's position for upcoming negotiations with EU countries on the final law." https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/eu-lawmakers-support-effective-ban-new-fossil-fuel-cars-2035-2022-06-08/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/eu-law...
fold3 4y ago
E.U. is expected to have their oil production declining by 2030[1] so it's not like they have that much of a choice anyway. [1] https://theshiftproject.org/en/article/eu-oil-depletion-2030-study/ https://theshiftproject.org/en/article/eu-oil-depletion-2030...
- Al-Khwarizmi 4y ago
  The EU's oil production has long been declining, and it's quite laughable anyway, an order of magnitude smaller than the US's (https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Oil_and_petroleum_products_-_a_statistical_overview&oldid=315177#Production_of_crude_oil https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php..., https://yearbook.enerdata.net/crude-oil/world-production-statistics.html https://yearbook.enerdata.net/crude-oil/world-production-sta...). We almost completely rely on imports. While I'm happy about initiatives like this for environmental reasons, I'm sure their real reasons have a lot to do with the EU not having oil in a context where it's going to grow increasingly expensive, and not so much with environmental concerns.
neallindsay 4y ago
I'm seeing a lot of skepticism in the comments here, but electric cars are already superior to their combustion-driven ancestors in most ways. People want to buy them. (Sales are already limited by how fast car makers can increase manufacturing capacity.) What this will do is mostly limit how long car makers can milk their gas/diesel engine making capability.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- alexandargyurov 4y ago
  Do you think there will be a ban on combustion engines completely in the future? Hearing the engine roar is something I will miss.
  - jimmytidey 4y ago
    I absolutely understand the appeal of ic cars, and (I assume), everyone will still be able to hear an engine roar at a race track or other private space. Engines roaring in a city might be nice for some, but for most it's just noise pollution, particularly offensive noise pollution at that. The lack of noise will be a huge benefit to electric cars.
    - alexandargyurov 4y ago
      Yep agree, countryside and private spaces will most likely be where ic cars live.
  - Gud 4y ago
    I’m in the other camp. The sooner we get rid of the assholes revving their engines the better.
    - alexandargyurov 4y ago
      I'm with you as well, in cities that is, but I should still be able to do it at a racetrack or the long country roads where I won't offend people.
helsinkiandrew 4y ago
There's an interesting issue with how expensive ICE cars will become to service and fuel when their number becomes smaller (2023 is meant to be the peak of ICE sales). The tipping point for replacement of horse drawn carriages with cars in large cities around the world came quite quickly - when the infrastructure became more expensive. In 2035/2040 the majority of ICE car owners will be the less well off (plus those driving classic cars) - but they'll likely be paying much more for travel than those that can afford new electric cars.
- breadloaf 4y ago
  Well except that people who can afford used ICE today won't be able to afford used BEV tomorrow. It is like banning bread and telling them to eat cake.
moravak1984 4y ago
Way too rushed... I don't think there is a clear roadmap for how the required infrastructure and supply chain will work. Definitely no clear understanding on the environmental impact of EVs. Did some pushy Tesla sales reps took senior EU politicians for some cool test rides? Sounds very much like it.
- wongarsu 4y ago
  We are not in a planned economy, we don't need a 10-year plan for building national supply chains. We have to make sure our electricity infrastructure can cope, everything else can be left up to the market. After all the investment to build a fast charger is easy if you have a guarantee that the number of customers will increase dramatically.
  - moravak1984 4y ago
    >> everything else can be left up to the market. Let's see how "the market" likes being unable to drive to their beach holidays without infrastructure. >> After all the investment to build a fast charger is easy if you have a guarantee that the number of customers will increase dramatically. Maybe, but there is no such guarantee. You can't solve everything by throwing money at it. Fast chargers/decent batteries remain elusive. So then building infrastructure is the only solution within the next 10-15 years. No way the EU can coordinate that fast.
    - scrollaway 4y ago
      > Let's see how "the market" likes being unable to drive to their beach holidays without infrastructure. This is banning the sale, not the use. And trains exist in Europe.
      - koonsolo 4y ago
        Airplanes are faster than trains.
        4y ago
carlmr 4y ago
>Raimondo noted: "The truth of the matter is that requires a lot of chips. The average electric vehicle has 2,000 chips in one car... one of the manufacturers said they're going to double their chip needs in the next five years. Probably the [combustion engine] car you drive now has hundreds of chips. The EV that we want you to buy over time has 2,000 chips." I hear this repeated all the time. No you don't need hundreds of chips to build an ICE engine car, and no you don't need hundreds, let alone thousands, of chips to build an electric car. There's no technical reason electric cars need so many more chips than ICE cars. The number of chips in cars is mostly due to the number of suppliers involved in building parts of the car separately.
- freemint 4y ago
  What makes one think EVs are gonna have much more chips then a comparable ICE? All those pumps, thousands of parts in the ICE, emissions control, transmission will become obsolete. Having a charging controller, an electric motor and battery monitoring is going to he a lot less complicated.
  - carlmr 4y ago
    I know, and even in ICE the drivetrain is only a portion of the CPUs. Most do windshield wipers, seat adjustments, darkening mirrors, electronically adjustable mirrors, climate control, Infotainment and all the rest. There's no difference here in EVs.
hexo 4y ago
Incredibly stupid decision. Anyway, only EV i'm willing to use is the one disconnected from internet.
reaperducer 4y ago
How many USB-C connectors does it take to charge a car? (Originally sarcastic, but now I'm actually curious.)
- Double_a_92 4y ago
  About 100
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
im3w1l 4y ago
So about the Ship of Theseus..
eb0la 4y ago
Still too late. I was hoping for 2030-2032 target since it would look like a quick win for environmentmental targets
pornel 4y ago
The last mass-market ICE vehicles of 2035 won't be your beloved V8 muscle cars. Increasingly tight noise and pollution limits already make it hard to make an appealing ICE car. The last ICE cars will be mostly crappy econoboxes for people who can't afford a battery. And they will still have stupid touchscreens and phone-home software because that's dictated by fashion and profit margins, not the powertrain.
Gravityloss 4y ago
A series plug in hybrid with 100 km range and a smallish range extender motor for long trips could be more environmentally efficient (and cheaper) for those who drive only a little and/or most of their kilometers in the city. This way you would need to mine only a quarter of the materials for the billions of batteries. It's not immediately obvious it makes sense to create those batteries that would then sit on driveways for most of their life. For taxis or sales reps, full electric, definitely!
haunter 4y ago
India and China: lmao thanks for the free money. Like really, am a European but feels like this is just "giving up" Also I'm curious how this will play out with the huge economic disparity between the member states (eg Luxemburg vs Bulgaria). People can't afford new cars let alone new electronic cars.
- alexandargyurov 4y ago
  Bulgarian here, mentioned in a lower thread as well, it will mean the richer states just export their old (modern) combustion engine cars to the Eastern countries. Curious what you mean by "giving up" though?
em1sar 4y ago
This will be a huge disaster, I work for one of the largest car manufacturers in the world and everyone is shitting their pants. Germany the leading "pseudo-green" energy country can't even produce enough green energy for 10% of currently existing electric cars, there's no way on earth to have enough for a electric-car-only scenario til 2035. What are these politicians thinking? The only way they can make this work is by going full YOU VILL OWN NOTHING mode and cancel private property as we know it.
- seanw444 4y ago
  > What are these politicians thinking? That what they vote on can simply be. Politicians don't like to think logistics. They exist in another realm, above the common man. > The only way they can make this work is by going full YOU VILL OWN NOTHING mode and cancel private property as we know it. Correct. That's been the elite's plan for a long time now, and they're open about it.
- hokkos 4y ago
  you are talking nonsenses : 1,4 million EV in Germany with 15kWh/100km and 15000km/year so using 3,15 TWh a year and producing 160 TWh of renewable electricity in 2021 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country https://energy-charts.info/charts/energy/chart.htm?l=fr&c=DE&chartColumnSorting=default&interval=year&year=2021&source=sw https://energy-charts.info/charts/energy/chart.htm?l=fr&c=DE...

117 points by linebug 4y ago

5 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31671328 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31671328

Better than nothing, but the date is a bit far away if we want carbon neutrality before (or even around) 2050. Cars have fairly long service times. Hopefully the market will phase out ICEs earlier than that except for niche uses.

karamanolev 4y ago
It's interesting to see how there are two top-level comments, one saying the date is too far away and the other saying that it's a short period for such a transition. I guess both are true in some way - it's really challenging to decarbonise quickly, but we need even quicker, because we're way past reasonable in terms of the environmental situation.
- skeletal88 4y ago
  Electric cars are still ridiculously expensive, don't have the same range and features etc, why would I want one? I live in a cold place, cold isn't good for batteries and engines heat the car inside, with electric cars heating reduces the range drastically
  - Sankozi 4y ago
    We need to tell that to people in Norway where 85% of new cars are plugin vehicles. Electric cars can run on average 100 km/h over 10 hours if you plan your trip well (and have a bit of luck with free spots on plugin stations). Apart from charging time I don't see where plugin vehicle is worse than ICE one when it comes to features.
    - packetlost 4y ago
      > Electric cars can run on average 100 km/h over 10 hours That's below highway speed here, and everything is at least twice the distance in America than you think it is. The nearest major city from me is 240km away, the second is 435km and it gets -34C here (the average in winter being about -10C). It just isn't feasible if you aren't in a dense metro area and only ever use your vehicle to commute (which is by far not the case).
      - adrianN 4y ago
        Average trip lengths in America are not that much longer than in Europe. On the rather rare occasions when you do several hundred kilometers in a single day, stopping for fifteen minutes to recharge every two hours or so doesn't increase travel time all that much. You have to take breaks anyway.
  - marssaxman 4y ago
    > Electric cars are still ridiculously expensive, don't have the same range and features etc, why would I want one? Are you under the age of 65? Do you have children? Do you expect that you will ever have children? If so, you want either an electric car or no car at all, in preference to a fossil-fuel-powered car, because you want the planet to remain hospitable for humans.
  - benhurmarcel 4y ago
    That's exactly why they plan to either ban ICE or tax the hell out of them. Because society needs you to switch to electric, so they need to make you want one. It's not fast enough to make electrics better, so we need to make ICE worse as well.
JulianMorrison 4y ago
There may be a faster fall-off than you'd think, because of feedback effects. Same way film cameras stopped being popular and then you couldn't get the films, or get them developed, so they got more unpopular, repeat until extinct. If fuel stations start closing down and you can't get the parts, it won't matter if fuel cars have decades of good service life ahead.
- bambax 4y ago
  Yes, that's what I'm thinking too. It's a vicious circle (or maybe a virtuous one?) but once fuel stations start closing in droves it will become very impractical to own a petrol car.
  - zbrozek 4y ago
    That cycle will undoubtedly be slower for vehicles than cameras. Much larger, much more expensive population, covering a broader range of niche cases. I think very highly of my EV, but I'm not under the illusion that all fossil fueled vehicles will evaporate quickly. Certainly I expect another 10-15 years out of my 22-year-old truck.
    - Symbiote 4y ago
      A 22 year old van is already too old to be driven in many European cities. For example, vans must be manufactured on 1 January 2007 or later to be used in Copenhagen. In July the date will become 1 January 2012 [1]. That doesn't yet apply to cars, and I think the truck counts as a car. It does apply in some cities in Germany, where the limit depends on the fuel -- petrol cars are often limited to 30 years (1992), diesel to 2007. I expect these regulations to tighten as electric cars become widespread, and the various exemptions to become more stringent. [1] https://miljoezoner.dk/en/regulations-and-vehicles/regulation-for-vans/ https://miljoezoner.dk/en/regulations-and-vehicles/regulatio... And https://urbanaccessregulations.eu/ https://urbanaccessregulations.eu/
      - zbrozek 4y ago
packetlost 4y ago
As someone in the American Midwest: LMAO. ICE cars are definitely not going anywhere anytime soon here.

devoutsalsa 4y ago

I wonder how realistic that is. That’s a huge shift to make in only 13 years. I guess we’ll see!

toyg 4y ago
It isn't. In about 5-10 years we will see a big push to delay that deadline, or even quietly shelve it. The industrial sector in particular is nowhere near switching, and they are critical - by and large, distribution relies on rubber, and that rubber is not going to be electric in 10 years time.
- guiriduro 4y ago
  Hopefully, forceful policy can ensure it happens before environmental collapse and secondary effects like resource war achieve the same effects in less desirable ways. Fear of the latter should enable policymakers to be more ruthless about the former.
  - vetinari 4y ago
    > before environmental collapse EU has less than 10% share in the CO~2 production. We are not going to make a difference even by going medieval today, and the rest of the world isn't going to care, especially as they will watch us to self-destruct.
    - guiriduro 4y ago
      You think radical policy is limited to internal? What happens if I don't trade with you unless you verifiably stop cutting down your rainforest? If I exclude your organisations from import unless they achieve some audited environmental standards, adopt EVs etc. Being a rich trading bloc like the EU can certainly have important and deliberate externalities.
    - freemint 4y ago
      Now do historic emissions, give all countries the right to develop and then the EU should very much cut it's future emissions for things to even out at all.

alexandargyurov 4y ago

The whole of Europe including the Eastern block? Good luck by 2035

mrtksn 4y ago
As per tradition, Germany and beyond will switch to electric and the diesel/gas cars will flood the Easter European markets.
- alexandargyurov 4y ago
  If they're cheap and good we'll buy them :) Germans make *some* great cars
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    Meh, German cars are good as long as you're within the warranty/lease period. Out of warranty, I wouldn't touch any modern German car. Japanese brands tend to be more reliable.
    - alexandargyurov 4y ago
      Yeah, fair enough, same with washing machines and fridges. Toyota are good, old Land Rovers from about 1998 to early 2000s were built to last - now, not so much. The good thing is we can see which modern cars weren't built to last and not buy them :)
  - danielrpa 4y ago
    German cars aren't what they used to be. I know because my wife owns a Made in Germany Volkswagen that breaks a lot more often than my other car, a US-made Hyundai.
    - alexandargyurov 4y ago
      I'm interested in the US-made car market. I don't know much but something on my todo list to learn. I've heard good things about the US making good cars

hkopr 4y ago

This is good from an environmental perspective, if (and that is a big if) the electricity is generated from clean sources. The societal implications are worrisome. Electric vehicles tend to track and surveil their "owners", fast charging is centralized and can be tracked as well. We have seen how far dystopian regimes like Trudeau's are willing to go. Instead of freezing the bank accounts using enabling laws, he could also shut off the grid or exclude specific vehicles. Mandatory kill switches for vehicles will come in handy as well. I'm sure the army and police armored vehicles for population suppression will still have combustion engines.

JonAtkinson 4y ago
All vehicles, no matter how old, or what form of propulsion, are tracked via the ANPR systems which have been built over the last three decades. This is certainly true in Europe, though I understand that those networks aren't as mature in the USA yet (anecdotal, and I could be very wrong about that). I've yet to hear about any vehicles with 'kill switches'. Is there any evidence of this, or is it just a possibility?
- shrubble 4y ago
  A reality since at least 2009: OnStar remotely disabled the gas pedal... https://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2009/10/onstar-gps-carjacking.html https://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2009/10/onstar-g...
adrianN 4y ago
What you say about electric cars is also true for new fossil cars.
- wickedsight 4y ago
  Older ones too. If anything, newer cars are getting more secure in this, because if laws like GDPR. Many cars don't even really wipe data when you do a 'factory reset'. They just don't show it anymore, but if you get to the source data, you can still see it. Think about that next time you sell your car.

ngcazz 4y ago

Sounds like today is the worst day to sell my 1.6l diesel, but tomorrow will be worse.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
No really. Any semiconductor shortage will see the value of existing second hand cars on the road shoot up. Especially those with fewer electronics and high reliability. In fact, the most desirable second hand cars (in Europe at least) are those form around mid '00s, as they had enough electronics to be relatively fuel efficient and safe, but still be reliable enough to not get you dragged to the dealership because one of the million electronics on board of the cars of today decided to have a bad day (modern cars a reliability nightmares, making out of warranty repairs super expensive, basically pushing people to old cars).

me_me_me 4y ago

Environment aside, this is not realistic with just aim to ban combustion engines. You need to fund groundbreaking infrastructural changes at national level. The last mile of logistics channels will not work with mythical electric trucks. Those does not exist because they make no sense. So how are we going to flow all those goods to markets?

Al-Khwarizmi 4y ago
Even though the headline says "vehicles", the ban is only for cars and vans. As far as I know, it doesn't affect trucks (or buses, tractors, etc.)
phtrivier 4y ago
Interestingly, the "large-haul trucks" seem to be excluded from the deal (it is discussed separately.) [1] I would say that the _very last mile_ of delivery (especially inside city centers) is properly covered by EVs (French Postal Service is claiming to have "the largest fleet of EVs in the world" [2].) Those vehicles have predictable routes, reasonnable usage hours, and a relatively small radius of travel; a battery of 100km or range, recharged at night, seems like a good fit. It's of course _much_ trickier for the kind of trucks that cross over Europe to ship veggies. I would not be surprised if those get to use fossil fuels a bit longer (maybe with higher efficiency requirements, higher proportion of plant-based fuels, incentives to go for H2 even if it does not make _complete_ environement sense, etc...) [1] https://www.liberation.fr/economie/transports/interdiction-du-moteur-thermique-en-2035-quid-des-motos-et-des-camions-20220610_MBBBJCFC5NH3JJY2LCVPISYU2E/#:~:text=Union%20europ%C3%A9enne-,Interdiction%20du%20moteur%20thermique%20en%202035,des%20motos%20et%20des%20camions%3F&text=Le%20texte%20vot%C3%A9%20ce%20mercredi,dans%20dans%20un%20second%20temps https://www.liberation.fr/economie/transports/interdiction-d.... [2] https://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2019/04/08/la-poste-numero-un-mondial-des-flottes-branchees_5447176_3234.html https://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2019/04/08/la-poste-...
crote 4y ago
The literal last mile is the easiest part, actually. Electric trucks with a range of 300km are already widely available, and that's more than enough for local use. Besides, in Europe there are pretty stringent rules about driving times already. You need to take a 45-minute break every 4.5 hours, which at 90 kmh is every 400 km. You can split that into a 15-minute break and a 30-minute one, requiring an even shorter range. Meanwhile, Germany is trialing overhead wires on highways, which would allow for an even more reduced range. The way I see it, the truck isn't the problem: building the charging infrastructure is.

LAC-Tech 4y ago

The EU is the most unintentionally hilarious confederation. It's completely inside out. Coordinate foreign affairs? Nope Able to police external borders? Nope Credible military deterrence in its near abroad? Not even remotely But banning IC engines, mandating dongle size, and giving the world cookie popups? You bet!

AndrewOMartin 4y ago
Well, yeah. If you put it like that.
ChemSpider 4y ago
You must be living under a rock: Coordinate foreign affairs? => Yes (e. g. Russia sanctions) Able to police external borders? => Yes, Frontex Credible military deterrence in its near abroad? => When was the last time anyone attacked an EU country?
- LAC-Tech 4y ago
  Coordinate foreign affairs? => Yes (e. g. Russia sanctions) US led and coordinated Able to police external borders? => Yes, Frontex Famously ineffective in 2015. Credible military deterrence in its near abroad? => When was the last time anyone attacked an EU country? The near abroad of the EU is not the EU, they are its neighbouring states.
  - arez 4y ago
    in 2015 it was agreed to let people in. Luckily we don't have gates that we open and close, but the countries in the EU agreed that this was a humanitarian crisis and decided to take some amounts of foreigners in.
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      >in 2015 it was agreed to let people in There was no common EU agreement to do that though. It was mostly Germany posturing for good PR and to try to save their ageing demographics and supplement their manufacturing sector which is dependent on imported cheap labor to stay competitive, as the cheap labor from the Eastern Block dried up. Denmark and other EU members chose to opt out from the refugee sharing scheme back then, denying to take them in, and this was also one of the main factors that violently triggered Brexit as lots of brits feared the idea of having to be obliged to take in unwanted people just because that's what Germany was suggesting to other members. All it did was create dissident among EU members and help break up the EU.

amelius 4y ago

Bad news for Ferrari et al.

ferongr 4y ago
The elites will not be deprived of their toys. They'll surely make some exception for cars they like using.
xwolfi 4y ago
Well if Porsche can do it, they can try at least! Their logo is a horse, the next one might be a dirty old combustion engine lol
ChuckNorris89 4y ago
I doubt it. Most likely the EU will have concessions in place to protect the local high-value, small volume, performance & luxury halo-brands like Ferrari, Lambo, Bugatti, Pagani, etc. A lot of their multi millionaire customers value that these cars have several moving parts that go bang on dead dinosaur juice, causing them to go vroom when you hit the gas pedal while making loud crackling and popping sounds from the exhaust, as the several pistons ramp up to over 8.000 RMP, so they will pay a premium for that in an all electric world (just look at the failure of electric motorcycles in the west).
- toyg 4y ago
  I hope that will also means the motorcycle sector. It's a niche, it's already very efficient, and despite efforts the electric versions are nowhere near feature parity.
CalRobert 4y ago
Ferrari is welcome to produce non-combustion vehicles. If Porsche can upset the purists by making an SUV (it's been a while but there was some outrage about basically getting in to the minivan market) then Ferrari can make an EV.
- arethuza 4y ago

gg82 4y ago

The EU probably needs to worry more about what they are going to power their vehicles for the next few years at least since they don't want to use Russian Oil.

Phurist 4y ago
With rapeseed oil :)
Retric 4y ago
EU doesn’t use oil to run it’s electric grid. There is enough Natural Gas production in the EU + UK to cover electricity production. It’s home heating that needs imported gas.
- freemint 4y ago
  And heavy industry also depends on natural gas.
  - Retric 4y ago
    Even so, Russia is only supplying ~10% of Europe’s total natural gas consumption.

slackfan 4y ago

And they will vote until they vote correctly.

paganel 4y ago

So I guess that leaves my country a little under 15 years to get out of the EU. Manageable.

helsinkiandrew 4y ago
Most EU countries (Germany, France etc) already have plans to phase out sales of ICE by 2035 anyway.
ianbooker 4y ago
This is an interesting guessing game. What country could it be? You must be thinking that automotive will suffer from this, this leaves France and Germany on the table. Arguably, a lot of the sector is spread across the EU, but this spread is facilitated by the common market itself. Since France has basically endless opportunities arising from its "carbon neutral" power generation, are you thinking of Germany?
- paganel 4y ago
  Romania, and while we certainly benefited economically from entering the EU (even though on a societal level the discussion is a lot more complicated, a lot of small and medium towns are now basically deserted) this type of measures that might make sense for wealthier Germany and France are certainly regressive for countries like mine. To put it more simply, we're too poor for this "eco" green-washing that is imposed on us from Brussels. I guess we could all make our bags and move to wealthier Germany and France, I mean, those of us that still decided to remain here, but that would be bad for our society at a national level (see the previous point about empty towns).
  - CalRobert 4y ago
    The economic challenge I understand, but how is this greenwashing? Transportation is one of the biggest sources of CO2 emissions.
CalRobert 4y ago
Why?

Ekaros 4y ago

Hmm, now in 10 years vote to move this date forward? Or will the 2034 be year with most combustion engine vehicles ever sold in EU?

ur-whale 4y ago
> now in 10 years vote to move this date forward? You're assuming you'll be able to vote on the issue. The EU isn't a particularly democratic system, and even assuming that the question will be asked of politicians and not simply implemented by non-elected bureaucrats, being able to poll the entire voter base on an issue such as this one is damn near impossible in the current system. Also, last time an actual EU-wide referendum was implemented, the results were basically ignored because the outcome didn't suit the bureaucrats.

traveler01 4y ago

People who use private planes to fly around voting on these kind of stuff. Democracy huh...

CalRobert 4y ago
Now you know how it feels when the government takes your tax money that you earned from a job to which you commuted by bike and gives it to motorists so they can buy EV's that will then clog the city through which you are cycling. Always someone to blame.... this is a positive step.
MagnumOpus 4y ago
Unlike US senators, 99% of EU parliament MEPs don't have the means for private planes (or even to charter them regularly).

dgellow 4y ago

If you have a combustion engine and want to change to electric, who will buy it from you? Or how do you get rid of your old car? There will be basically no demand in Europe. Just wondering what will happen to all these existing cars, it’s nice to know new cars will be electric but what are people supposed to do with their current ones? Lot of them won’t be usable in cities due to low-emission zoning policies. Edit: it’s a genuine question, I don’t understand the logistic behind it, other than driving your old car to Turkey and sell it there, which isn’t realistic for the millions of existing cars. I asked it a few times in the past but didn’t get satisfying answers.

CalRobert 4y ago
Crushed and recycled, presumably. A new ICE car bought today will be usable for over a decade. Of course, the whole point is to make combustion vehicle purchases unappealing, and telling people their resale will be close to nothing helps with this!
Epa095 4y ago
I am willing to bet a beer that it's only for new cars. The article links to a description : >In a plenary vote on Wednesday, MEPs adopted their position on proposed rules to revise the CO2 emissions performance standards for *new* cars and vans with 339 votes in favour, 249 against and 24 abstentions. Many of the eu rules for cars are not retroactive. E.g I can use a old car without lighting for the number plate, even though new cars must have light on them.
- morsch 4y ago
  Yes, this only applies to new cars, not used cars. You will be able to sell and buy used cars after 2035 if this proposal comes into effect. Note that while the parliament of the EU has approved the proposal, it still needs approval from the council of ministers.
  - Helmut10001 4y ago
    Yes, only new cars. I think it this could also mean the reverse for used cars: They get more expensive because everybody wants them and no new are produced.

jpalomaki 4y ago

"The law is not yet final. Wednesday's vote confirms the parliament's position for upcoming negotiations with EU countries on the final law." https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/eu-lawmakers-support-effective-ban-new-fossil-fuel-cars-2035-2022-06-08/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/eu-law...

fold3 4y ago

E.U. is expected to have their oil production declining by 2030[1] so it's not like they have that much of a choice anyway. [1] https://theshiftproject.org/en/article/eu-oil-depletion-2030-study/ https://theshiftproject.org/en/article/eu-oil-depletion-2030...

Al-Khwarizmi 4y ago
The EU's oil production has long been declining, and it's quite laughable anyway, an order of magnitude smaller than the US's (https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Oil_and_petroleum_products_-_a_statistical_overview&oldid=315177#Production_of_crude_oil https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php..., https://yearbook.enerdata.net/crude-oil/world-production-statistics.html https://yearbook.enerdata.net/crude-oil/world-production-sta...). We almost completely rely on imports. While I'm happy about initiatives like this for environmental reasons, I'm sure their real reasons have a lot to do with the EU not having oil in a context where it's going to grow increasingly expensive, and not so much with environmental concerns.

neallindsay 4y ago

I'm seeing a lot of skepticism in the comments here, but electric cars are already superior to their combustion-driven ancestors in most ways. People want to buy them. (Sales are already limited by how fast car makers can increase manufacturing capacity.) What this will do is mostly limit how long car makers can milk their gas/diesel engine making capability.

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alexandargyurov 4y ago
Do you think there will be a ban on combustion engines completely in the future? Hearing the engine roar is something I will miss.
- jimmytidey 4y ago
  I absolutely understand the appeal of ic cars, and (I assume), everyone will still be able to hear an engine roar at a race track or other private space. Engines roaring in a city might be nice for some, but for most it's just noise pollution, particularly offensive noise pollution at that. The lack of noise will be a huge benefit to electric cars.
  - alexandargyurov 4y ago
    Yep agree, countryside and private spaces will most likely be where ic cars live.
- Gud 4y ago
  I’m in the other camp. The sooner we get rid of the assholes revving their engines the better.
  - alexandargyurov 4y ago
    I'm with you as well, in cities that is, but I should still be able to do it at a racetrack or the long country roads where I won't offend people.

helsinkiandrew 4y ago

There's an interesting issue with how expensive ICE cars will become to service and fuel when their number becomes smaller (2023 is meant to be the peak of ICE sales). The tipping point for replacement of horse drawn carriages with cars in large cities around the world came quite quickly - when the infrastructure became more expensive. In 2035/2040 the majority of ICE car owners will be the less well off (plus those driving classic cars) - but they'll likely be paying much more for travel than those that can afford new electric cars.

breadloaf 4y ago
Well except that people who can afford used ICE today won't be able to afford used BEV tomorrow. It is like banning bread and telling them to eat cake.

moravak1984 4y ago

Way too rushed... I don't think there is a clear roadmap for how the required infrastructure and supply chain will work. Definitely no clear understanding on the environmental impact of EVs. Did some pushy Tesla sales reps took senior EU politicians for some cool test rides? Sounds very much like it.

wongarsu 4y ago
We are not in a planned economy, we don't need a 10-year plan for building national supply chains. We have to make sure our electricity infrastructure can cope, everything else can be left up to the market. After all the investment to build a fast charger is easy if you have a guarantee that the number of customers will increase dramatically.
- moravak1984 4y ago
  >> everything else can be left up to the market. Let's see how "the market" likes being unable to drive to their beach holidays without infrastructure. >> After all the investment to build a fast charger is easy if you have a guarantee that the number of customers will increase dramatically. Maybe, but there is no such guarantee. You can't solve everything by throwing money at it. Fast chargers/decent batteries remain elusive. So then building infrastructure is the only solution within the next 10-15 years. No way the EU can coordinate that fast.
  - scrollaway 4y ago
    > Let's see how "the market" likes being unable to drive to their beach holidays without infrastructure. This is banning the sale, not the use. And trains exist in Europe.
    - koonsolo 4y ago
      Airplanes are faster than trains.
      - 4y ago

carlmr 4y ago

>Raimondo noted: "The truth of the matter is that requires a lot of chips. The average electric vehicle has 2,000 chips in one car... one of the manufacturers said they're going to double their chip needs in the next five years. Probably the [combustion engine] car you drive now has hundreds of chips. The EV that we want you to buy over time has 2,000 chips." I hear this repeated all the time. No you don't need hundreds of chips to build an ICE engine car, and no you don't need hundreds, let alone thousands, of chips to build an electric car. There's no technical reason electric cars need so many more chips than ICE cars. The number of chips in cars is mostly due to the number of suppliers involved in building parts of the car separately.

freemint 4y ago
What makes one think EVs are gonna have much more chips then a comparable ICE? All those pumps, thousands of parts in the ICE, emissions control, transmission will become obsolete. Having a charging controller, an electric motor and battery monitoring is going to he a lot less complicated.
- carlmr 4y ago
  I know, and even in ICE the drivetrain is only a portion of the CPUs. Most do windshield wipers, seat adjustments, darkening mirrors, electronically adjustable mirrors, climate control, Infotainment and all the rest. There's no difference here in EVs.

hexo 4y ago

Incredibly stupid decision. Anyway, only EV i'm willing to use is the one disconnected from internet.

reaperducer 4y ago

How many USB-C connectors does it take to charge a car? (Originally sarcastic, but now I'm actually curious.)

Double_a_92 4y ago
About 100

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

im3w1l 4y ago

So about the Ship of Theseus..

eb0la 4y ago

Still too late. I was hoping for 2030-2032 target since it would look like a quick win for environmentmental targets

pornel 4y ago

The last mass-market ICE vehicles of 2035 won't be your beloved V8 muscle cars. Increasingly tight noise and pollution limits already make it hard to make an appealing ICE car. The last ICE cars will be mostly crappy econoboxes for people who can't afford a battery. And they will still have stupid touchscreens and phone-home software because that's dictated by fashion and profit margins, not the powertrain.

Gravityloss 4y ago

A series plug in hybrid with 100 km range and a smallish range extender motor for long trips could be more environmentally efficient (and cheaper) for those who drive only a little and/or most of their kilometers in the city. This way you would need to mine only a quarter of the materials for the billions of batteries. It's not immediately obvious it makes sense to create those batteries that would then sit on driveways for most of their life. For taxis or sales reps, full electric, definitely!

haunter 4y ago

India and China: lmao thanks for the free money. Like really, am a European but feels like this is just "giving up" Also I'm curious how this will play out with the huge economic disparity between the member states (eg Luxemburg vs Bulgaria). People can't afford new cars let alone new electronic cars.

alexandargyurov 4y ago
Bulgarian here, mentioned in a lower thread as well, it will mean the richer states just export their old (modern) combustion engine cars to the Eastern countries. Curious what you mean by "giving up" though?

em1sar 4y ago

This will be a huge disaster, I work for one of the largest car manufacturers in the world and everyone is shitting their pants. Germany the leading "pseudo-green" energy country can't even produce enough green energy for 10% of currently existing electric cars, there's no way on earth to have enough for a electric-car-only scenario til 2035. What are these politicians thinking? The only way they can make this work is by going full YOU VILL OWN NOTHING mode and cancel private property as we know it.

seanw444 4y ago
> What are these politicians thinking? That what they vote on can simply be. Politicians don't like to think logistics. They exist in another realm, above the common man. > The only way they can make this work is by going full YOU VILL OWN NOTHING mode and cancel private property as we know it. Correct. That's been the elite's plan for a long time now, and they're open about it.
hokkos 4y ago
you are talking nonsenses : 1,4 million EV in Germany with 15kWh/100km and 15000km/year so using 3,15 TWh a year and producing 160 TWh of renewable electricity in 2021 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country https://energy-charts.info/charts/energy/chart.htm?l=fr&c=DE&chartColumnSorting=default&interval=year&year=2021&source=sw https://energy-charts.info/charts/energy/chart.htm?l=fr&c=DE...