13 ms·

Behind the Ferrari and Lamborghini rivalry

198 points by mhb 4y ago

publicola1990 4y ago
Not exactly related to the article, but is Enzo Ferrari's links with Mussolini and his party being somewhat airbrushed away in popular imagination? Enzo Ferrari's wikipedia page for example barely mentions that.
iancmceachern 4y ago
It's a story as old as time. You can choose to work together, or not.
troelsSteegin 4y ago
“Let me make cars. You stick to making tractors.” - Enzo Ferrari to Ferruccio Lamborghini. That's got to be an all time top 10 customer support fail. But, after that, it's how many owners for Lamborghini the car company, until AUDI AG? Maybe tractors are not so bad. The wonder for me is the meanings of the names of the different models. "Countach" apparently sounds like "wow" in Italian. "Diablo", ok. Gallardo is after a fighting bull. Aventador is after another fighting bull. Urus, after aurochs, really big bull predecessors. Murcielago is bat, but maybe that's bull bats.
- tdido 4y ago
  El Diablo and Murcielago were also fighting bulls.
- caycep 4y ago
  granted, I feel like sometimes, snobby customer service is a feature/"experience" and not a bug for certain classes of Veblen goods!
  - hinkley 4y ago
    NO SOUP FOR YOU!
    - stillworks 4y ago
      Until you happen upon the recipes due to some random event !
    - caycep 4y ago
      Yes - I was just thinking this!
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - aerostable_slug 4y ago
    Ferrari is like this. You have to be a "good customer" to be allowed to buy certain models. And, if you do something Modena doesn't like (e.g. put a wrap on a Ferrari), they will ban you from ever purchasing a new one from a dealer again. Luxury watches can be similar, where people in various watch forums will proudly describe how they systematically sucked up to an authorized dealer, purchased this and that along with gifts to the salespeople, just to be privileged enough to pay for a specific, extremely high-margin, tchotchke. Not my thing, but more power to them.
  - usrusr 4y ago
    And as the current top post says, "there are no losers here". Chances are Ferrari didn't exactly suffer from being the most established one from "that magic place where all the supercars come from". Before Lamborghini, it was just some region in Italy that happened be the one where Ferraris were built.
- ffhhj 4y ago
  > “Let me make cars. You stick to making tractors.” - Enzo Ferrari to Ferruccio Lamborghini. That's got to be an all time top 10 customer support fail. In these days of automated responses I'd be happy with such answer, direct and honest from the CEO, instead of a request for ID and a delay of weeks to let me know they are reviewing the case.
  - Aeolun 4y ago
    At least you know what you can expect. I can totally see myself building a competing product out of spite though.
    - dotancohen 4y ago
      And yet stuck with Jira we remain!
      - dsr_ 4y ago
        Here's a business plan: copy the features of RequestTracker in a different language; integrate a wiki with custom markdown-like syntax to dynamically pull data from the tickets; have a workflow to publish things from the internal side to a public side that makes it easy to audit for dynamic data flows. Design for self-federation, so that teams can have their own servers pub/sub queues, search across servers, and enact security boundaries. You now have a product that will work for about 90% of existing JIRA users. Sell it in three versions: open-source no support, self-hosted with support-per-user, and hosted SaaS with support per team.
  - CamperBob2 4y ago
    "The clutch is fine. You're shifting it wrong."
- netsharc 4y ago
  The article feels like high-school level writing, it misses the part where the son of the corrupt Indonesian president owned the company (through a holding company in Bermuda) for a while.
- benjaminsuch 4y ago
  The bull names are intended. Since Audi took over, they name (almost) every car after a famous spanish bull.
- hef19898 4y ago
  Argueably tractors back the day were a lot closer to cars then they are now.
pmontra 4y ago
> The name “Countach”? It is pronounced coon-tasch and simply means "wow" in Italian. In the dialect of the place, not in Italian (I'm Italian.) I learned the origin of the name a few years ago. I always thought it was an English word or something and always mispronounced it.
- inferiorhuman 4y ago
  What I'd heard is that "countach" is the sort of expletive you'd say when you saw a beautiful woman. Although to be fair using regional slang makes some sense as the Countach dates to around the time that Italy was transitioning to Standard Italian.
  - bozhark 4y ago
  - barry-cotter 4y ago
    > Although to be fair using regional slang makes some sense as the Countach dates to around the time that Italy was transitioning to Standard Italian. ? Tuscan was the written standard for Italian since Petrarch and the Piedmontese conquest of Southern Italy was done by 1871. Admittedly colonization took a long time but it’s a very long time since anything but Tuscan has been used in official or prestige circumstances in Italian.
    - inferiorhuman 4y ago
      Sure but even sixty odd years later Mussolini was struggling to force people to drop their regional identities and adopt an Italian one. From what I can tell (as I'm neither that old nor Italian) even by the 50s or 60s it was still common to find folks who were only fluent in a regional language. > official or prestige circumstances in Italian Lamborghini differentiated itself from Ferrari in large part by being brash and in your face. Given what countach means I think it's pretty safe to say that they were not trying to come up with a prestigious name.
joebob42 4y ago
I'm surprised how few cars this is in total. It's kind of cool the brand has such a big impact with only low thousands of cars.
- blocked_again 4y ago
  Lamborghinis are ERC721s. Toyotos are ERC20s.
- httpz 4y ago
  Ferrari and Lamborghini each sell about 10k cars a year. What's more impressive is Pagani and Koenigsegg each only made about 200 cars ever.
  - masklinn 4y ago
    It took Bugatti 9 years to shift their 450 Veyron. Though obviously these were different and I guess leaner times, the Chiron, much less of a loss leader (Veyrons supposedly cost VW $5 millions a piece, the retail price of the base model was $1 million) sold 200 units before the first one made it to a client, and the 500th (and last) unit was confirmed sold in January 2022, just under 6 years after the original announcement.
    - Grazester 4y ago
      The engine in the later Bugattis is the same engine from the Veyron (modified but largely the same I understand). So the cost of development when down on follow up cars.
  - tromp 4y ago
    Koenigsegg will produce 300 of its latest hypercar, the Gemera [1], which looks like having the most interesting powertrain. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koenigsegg_Gemera https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koenigsegg_Gemera
  - tromp 4y ago
    Koenigsegg will produce 300 of its latest hypercar, the (4 seater!) Gemera [1], which looks like having the most interesting powertrain ever. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koenigsegg_Gemera https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koenigsegg_Gemera
legitster 4y ago
There is a version of the story here where Enzo is not wrong. His #1 focus was building cars that won races. He was clear about that. And people bought his car because they won races. Lamborghini made amazing cars... that did not win many races. There are not many accounts of Enzo being a likeable person, or a great engineer, or even a particularly good business man. But it wasn't a "mistake" how he treated Ferruccio's ideas. So, maybe the moral of the story is listen to your customers. But it could also be: don't compromise and you'll still do fine, and they will go out and make what they want.
- caycep 4y ago
  It depends on the culture perhaps. "not invented here syndrome" often practiced by many tech companies. Granted, as an aside, my understanding is the 250 GTO line of models were meant as an afterthought to fund the racing side of things, but to my eye, they are the most beautiful Ferrari models. The supercar/racing inspired models often look ugly to me.
  - prova_modena 4y ago
    Small correction, the "250 GTO" was a specific racing model, while the "250 GT" was a series of models encompassing both roadgoing and racing cars. I'm assuming you are referring to the roadgoing 250 GT models, such as the 250 GT Pininfarina Coupe, 250 GT California Spyder etc. The roadgoing 250 GT series was produced at the tail end of the "coachbuilt" era of automobiles, where the manufacturer sent the bare chassis and engine to a artisan shop specialized in the design and construction of the body. So you're correct that, from Ferrari's perspective, the design of these roadgoing models was secondary to the racing models. However, because it was not Ferrari's primary concern, it could be contracted out to coachbuilders such as Pininfarina. These firms were highly sophisticated designers and artisans and indeed produced some very beautiful work.
    - mlambie 4y ago
    - 4y ago
fosk 4y ago
Buy a Ferrari if you want to race, buy a Lamborghini if you want to shop on Rodeo drive.
- short_sells_poo 4y ago
  Modern Ferraris are amazing driver's cars. To this day, the single best driving experience I've ever had was in a 458 Speciale. There are better engineered cars, there are faster cars, there are more comfortable cars, but this to me is the embodiment of what a car can do. It is just an amazing feeling to drive it. It's like using a precision instrument that somehow immediately becomes an extension of your body. It's really uncanny. None of the Lamborghini's I was fortunate enough to drive came close to this.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    Ferrari got rid of the gearshift :-(
    - mauvehaus 4y ago
      I like driving manual as much as the next person (and have been for 25 years), but I full well acknowledge that I'd be way out of my depth driving any modern Ferrari. And let's be honest: if you're worried about lap times, the flappy paddle gearbox is faster. It will never replace the joy of rowing your own gears or nailing a downshift, but it's almost certainly a win in terms of reliability under real world drivers and pace under all drivers.
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        The flappy paddle is cheating and boring. You gotta master the heal-toe brake double-clutch downshift going into a turn, or you're not a real driver.
        mauvehaus 4y ago
        I'm not saying it's not, but I stand by my claim (completely unsupported by evidence, I'll admit) that somewhere between 4 and 6 nines of drivers are completely outclassed and lack the experience to drive a 500hp+ car competently, nevermind get the most out of it on a track, with a manual. I owned an '86 Subaru BRAT with an EJ22 swap and a cranky transmission (heel-toe and double clutching required down into 1 and 2), and truly nailing a smooth 3-2 downshift with the transmission shifting sweetly into 2 was an occasion to be celebrated. I am 100% confident that I'd nail it less than 1/10th as often in any modern supercar with a manual. I've also driven an E36 M3 (US spec) and a 458. I know I lack the training and experience to stay ahead of either of them on the limit. I suspect most other people do too.
WalterBright 4y ago
> He would also build sports cars. And – they would be faster and better than Enzo Ferrari's. This is what men do when they are insulted and told they can't do something.
- kasey_junk 4y ago
  Fail at what they set out to do?
  - CamperBob2 4y ago
    If necessary, yes.
- rektide 4y ago
  Or they run for president. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHckZCxdRkA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHckZCxdRkA Or they continue becoming even more Tucker Carlson than they already were. (side note, supposedly Stewart was super super hungry in this) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFQFB5YpDZE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFQFB5YpDZE
  - hinkley 4y ago
    "And yet you still wear a bowtie," is probably the saltiest thing Stewart ever said outside of a Congressional Hearing. And Carlson got fired a week or two after that. Unfortunately he seems to have landed on his claws. There is an alternative history in my head where Stewart moves into Graham's or McConnell's Congressional District and runs against them, on the success of his 9/11 lobbying.
    - rektide 4y ago
      > Unfortunately he seems to have landed on his claws. Definitely got a chuckle from this, wonderfully stated. Not sure I'd heard that expression before.
- afarrell 4y ago
  Or they take the other’s words in stride and decide their path based on what they already wanted to do anyway.
bmitc 4y ago
I found out about this rivalry through the YouTube video Lamborghini: Never Insult a Tractor Tycoon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5p4sAkjLSI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5p4sAkjLSI. It was a pretty good little documentary.
WalterBright 4y ago
The only problem with a Lambo is it's not a Ferrari.
- Maursault 4y ago
  You're failing to see their practicality, which they both lack in spades.[1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIahBbDxfG0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIahBbDxfG0
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    Don't care. Ferrari or nothing.
treelovinhippie 4y ago
prova_modena 4y ago
Ferruccio Lamborghini was primarily interested in building comfortable, quick and stylish GT cars, not high performance sports cars or racing cars. In contrast, Enzo Ferrari was interested in producing road cars to fund the racing division of the company. From the present-day, it's easy to see why Lamborghini and Ferrari are "paired." Both are merchandising and branding behemoths, both produce thoroughly modern, refined sports cars that are often cross-shopped against each other. However, in the 1960s and 1970s these companies were definitely not two sides of the same coin, being run by idiosyncratic personalities with differing priorities. While the Miura and Countach are best remembered today, Lamborghini struggled tremendously to break in to the luxury GT market with the 350 GT, 400 GT, Islero, Jarama and Espada. They also tried and failed to compete with the Porsche 911 using the Urraco. Economic and manufacturing issues prevented Lamborghini from achieving lasting profitability in these markets. Thus, as described in the article, Lamborghini struggled through the 70s and 80s. In contrast, Ferrari was continually buoyed by positive publicity from racing and weathered the oil crisis using funding provided by Fiat. One part of the story that is glossed over by the article is the engineering team behind the early Lamborghini cars. The legendary popularity of the Miura and Countach and their crucial role in the Lamborghini story overshadow the fact that Ferruccio was not initially supportive of these cars, or of the idea of building racing-inspired high performance sports cars at all. In particular, the Miura was an "after-hours" project of three talented engineers: Gian Paolo Dallara, Paolo Stanzani and Bob Wallace. These three all had keen interest in racing cars and developed the Miura chassis without official support. After the completed chassis was shown at the 1966 Geneva Auto Show, favorable public response led Ferruccio to approve a production version. The success of the Miura allowed the small Lamborghini engineering team and body designer Gandini to have creative freedom in designing the Countach. However, if the company stayed true to Ferruccio's original goals and these engineers were not allowed to "play", these remarkable models would not exist at all. The article's states that ATS designed and built early Lamborghinis. This is historically inaccurate. The only ATS member that had a significant relationship with Lamborghini was Giotto Bizzarrini, who designed the V12 engine used in the 350 GT and subsequently refined and updated for use in many other Lamborghini models. Bizzarrini's association with Lamborghini was very brief, most likely only consisting of providing the engine design as a deliverable. The four person team of Bizzarrini, Dallara, Stanzani, and Wallace were responsible for the engineering of the early Lamborghini cars, not ATS. There's also an interesting story here behind the article's brief mention of the 1961 walkout/"palace revolt" where some of the leading technical talent left Ferrari and formed ATS. While this was a blow in the short term, Ferrari very quickly filled the void with a young engineer named Mauro Forghieri who became one of the most successful technical directors in the company's history. Enzo's willingness to bring in new, young talent when existing employees (and drivers!) proved unsatisfactory is a major theme in the company's history. Arguably, this tendency contributed to the company and team's ability to stay solvent and successful for so long under Enzo's management.
neilv 4y ago
> After some time, on to the stage comes the car that many, including myself, had on a poster in their rooms growing up. [...] – the Lamborghini Countach. Apparently, I have never had an original thought, :) including (just now) hunting for the particular Lambo poster I had: https://retromash.com/2017/03/15/the-hunt-for-this-amazing-lamborghini-countach-poster/ https://retromash.com/2017/03/15/the-hunt-for-this-amazing-l...
- CamperBob2 4y ago
  Nifty, that's the very one I had on my wall.
Aeolun 4y ago
Hmm, I think I’d buy Lamborghinis for the same reason I buy AMD over Intel.
- pc86 4y ago
  Which is?
SloopJon 4y ago
> After some time, on to the stage comes the car that many, including myself, had on a poster in their rooms growing up. One of my favorite posters growing up was a white Countach, about five feet long by maybe two feet high. I had a much smaller print of a Ferrari F40. The appeal for a kid like me, of course, being that each had some claim to the fastest production car at some point. It's kind of amazing to me that over sixteen years only about 2,000 were made. By comparison, there were about 9,000 DeLoreans in three years.
gbraad 4y ago
Perhaps this should now read "Fiat and Volkswagen rivalry" :-P
dsizzle 4y ago
They both sound terrible and shouldn't be allowed off a racetrack! :P
walrus01 4y ago
This may not be accurate, but from what I heard, it actually turned out that Lamborghini was a subject matter expert on that particular clutch, because it also happened to be used in some of his tractors. He tore down the failed Ferrari and found exactly what the actual third-party manufacturer of the clutch was. He was not exactly happy about it.
- Animats 4y ago
  Race cars are not made for long service intervals. If you have to replace the clutch plates after each race, that's quite acceptable. Formula I cars used to need a new engine for each race, although things have improved a bit.
z9znz 4y ago
For the person who has owned neither marque, it's only a question of feeling. Ferrari has always been beautiful and performance driven. Lamborghini has been design driven. Performance is there, but with more conditions. If you want iconic, you'll have more choices with Lamboroghini. If you want elegant and mechanically elegant, you _usually_ want Ferrari. Then there are specific models... Ferrari 250, in its various forms is a Mona Lisa to the viewers who appreciate it. Then there was the Testarossa, and then the F40. After that, the designs were also great, but they weren't so special at the right time. For Lambo, you have the Miura, Countach (probably the most recognizable supercar design of all time), and the Diablo. For the car enthusiast, it's rarely a direct comparison. At times one has the mechanical advantage, and at other times is a design appeal.
WalterBright 4y ago
Grand Prix (1967), at the Ferrari factory: "What means far more to me than anything else is: our good name! Our reputation represents desire for perfection of the highest quality. I gamble that reputation gladly, because I have absolute faith in every car that leaves this factory. But I will not risk it on a driver in whom I cannot have an equal faith. There are fewer than thirty men in the world qualified to drive Formula One; a mere half-dozen, perhaps, to win. At this moment, I am inclined to think you are not one of them." Ferrari was the shiznit for me after I saw that movie.
dboreham 4y ago
Perhaps we should document the associations between well known figures in our field/industry/business and these cars? I'll start: Iann Barron (Elliot, CTL, Inmos) had a white Countach as his daily driver. It was famously unreliable: supposedly the oil pan separated from the engine once while moving, and famously fast on the M4.
waingake 4y ago
I'll start a spite ~store~ car.
GVIrish 4y ago
Enzo Ferrari is such a unique character in automotive history. Not only did he piss off Ferruccio Lamborghini so much that he created a competing car company, he also enraged Henry Ford II so much that Ford decided to build the GT40 to beat Ferrari at the racetrack. I just find it fascinating that this one man was such an arrogant jerk that built such a compelling brand that he inspired an entirely new company and all time great racing program just to get revenge against him.
- js2 4y ago
  Ford famously went 1,2,3 at the 1966 Le Mans. In 1967 they'd also take first place from Ferrari. Here's a great historical film on that race: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH0R4MDDgns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH0R4MDDgns (Ford also took first in '68 and '69.) The 2016 documentary The 24-Hour War is pretty good watching too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pd-TNOjHGo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pd-TNOjHGo
- praveenhm 4y ago
  May be Enzo, is our current generation Elon Musk, who pisses off many people too, many built a rivalry car company.
- dotancohen 4y ago
  Many of history's greatest minds were complete jerks. I think that Newton is the quintessential example. But you've also got engineers, such as Edison, artists, such as Poe, inventors, such as Tesla (ha! take that Edison), and many many others.
- benjaminsuch 4y ago
  Well there is a saying: You always create your own devils I think it fits here.
httpz 4y ago
Pretty much every comment on this thread comparing Ferraris to Lamborghinis is overgeneralized and outdated. It really just depends on the era and the specific models you're comparing. Also the founders' original philosophies have long been diluted and that's not necessarily a bad thing for customers.
qqtt 4y ago
It's amazing how this story has fed into the myth making and brand for both companies. It's one of those "there are no losers here" anecdotes which can be used by both companies to attract customers (Lamborghini captured imaginations with their designs and Ferrari kept winning races). A marketer's dream scenario, so much so, it makes me question how much of this story is really true and how much this innocuous relationship between these two men really played at building their respective companies. In any case, amazing that in 2022 there are still new articles being written about these events and still interest in hearing it. Story telling is essential in building a brand that captures public interest - those who aim to mass market their product, take notes.
- JohnJamesRambo 4y ago
  How much of Steve Jobs vs. Bill Gates was real?
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    The part where both billionaires were laughing all the way to the bank.
- Animats 4y ago
  Usually, such stories are planted just before someone is about to announce a new product.
  - basch 4y ago
    It doesn't seem well enough written to be a plant. It reads like a middle school term paper or an AI assembled clickbait article.
- nazka 4y ago
  As a writing side note since you talk about story telling. No need to place parentheses here. I enjoy reading your own comment and anything you have to say can be interesting too :)
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
avereveard 4y ago
https://www.quartamarcia.it/la-lite-tra-ferrari-e-lamborghini-una-grande-bugia/ https://www.quartamarcia.it/la-lite-tra-ferrari-e-lamborghin... The story was quite embellished in time. Stanzani had a different, simpler recollection. Besides, I'm Italian, born in the eighties. I may not have lived the seventies so I cannot comment about back then, but in my time there never was a perceived rivalry between the two brand. They sit in completely separated market segments, with quite orthogonal mind shares.
- nafey 4y ago
  Interestingly Ferrucio Lamborghini's son has commented on this blog post disputing its version of the story.
DeathArrow 4y ago
35 years ago, people in my country were dreaming about Renault, Citroen, Peugeot, Volkswagen. Those were our car legends. They were as hard to obtain as Lamborghini and Ferrari in rich countries.
DeathArrow 4y ago
Imagine if it was the other way around and a disappointed Enzo Ferrari started to make tractors. :D
- dotancohen 4y ago
  You're one of today's lucky 10,000! https://www.ferraritractor.com/ https://www.ferraritractor.com/
  - usrusr 4y ago
    Same family name, same region, but apparently that company had already been making tractors for a few years when Lamborghini's proposals were dismissed.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
benoliver999 4y ago
Iain Tyrell has just published a video where he is sent to authenticate the actual Ferrari 250 GT Ferruccio was pissed off with. Includes some clutch-swapping to see if any Lamborghini clutches might fit inside the Ferrari. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4n9EeiKhCA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4n9EeiKhCA
thisNeeds2BeSad 4y ago
Outrageous ego is sort of a pre-requisit if you want to outlive a established dogma/organization you are going up against, which will punnish non-conformity on every step - either that or you are doing a sort of "secret agent" subversion with a cell like structure on the inside.
stevenjgarner 4y ago
What a great story for a movie! Alright you armchair casting directors, who would play Ferruccio and who would play Enzo?

198 points by mhb 4y ago

publicola1990 4y ago

Not exactly related to the article, but is Enzo Ferrari's links with Mussolini and his party being somewhat airbrushed away in popular imagination? Enzo Ferrari's wikipedia page for example barely mentions that.

iancmceachern 4y ago

It's a story as old as time. You can choose to work together, or not.

troelsSteegin 4y ago

“Let me make cars. You stick to making tractors.” - Enzo Ferrari to Ferruccio Lamborghini. That's got to be an all time top 10 customer support fail. But, after that, it's how many owners for Lamborghini the car company, until AUDI AG? Maybe tractors are not so bad. The wonder for me is the meanings of the names of the different models. "Countach" apparently sounds like "wow" in Italian. "Diablo", ok. Gallardo is after a fighting bull. Aventador is after another fighting bull. Urus, after aurochs, really big bull predecessors. Murcielago is bat, but maybe that's bull bats.

tdido 4y ago
El Diablo and Murcielago were also fighting bulls.
caycep 4y ago
granted, I feel like sometimes, snobby customer service is a feature/"experience" and not a bug for certain classes of Veblen goods!
- hinkley 4y ago
  NO SOUP FOR YOU!
  - stillworks 4y ago
    Until you happen upon the recipes due to some random event !
  - caycep 4y ago
    Yes - I was just thinking this!
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- aerostable_slug 4y ago
  Ferrari is like this. You have to be a "good customer" to be allowed to buy certain models. And, if you do something Modena doesn't like (e.g. put a wrap on a Ferrari), they will ban you from ever purchasing a new one from a dealer again. Luxury watches can be similar, where people in various watch forums will proudly describe how they systematically sucked up to an authorized dealer, purchased this and that along with gifts to the salespeople, just to be privileged enough to pay for a specific, extremely high-margin, tchotchke. Not my thing, but more power to them.
- usrusr 4y ago
  And as the current top post says, "there are no losers here". Chances are Ferrari didn't exactly suffer from being the most established one from "that magic place where all the supercars come from". Before Lamborghini, it was just some region in Italy that happened be the one where Ferraris were built.
ffhhj 4y ago
> “Let me make cars. You stick to making tractors.” - Enzo Ferrari to Ferruccio Lamborghini. That's got to be an all time top 10 customer support fail. In these days of automated responses I'd be happy with such answer, direct and honest from the CEO, instead of a request for ID and a delay of weeks to let me know they are reviewing the case.
- Aeolun 4y ago
  At least you know what you can expect. I can totally see myself building a competing product out of spite though.
  - dotancohen 4y ago
    And yet stuck with Jira we remain!
    - dsr_ 4y ago
      Here's a business plan: copy the features of RequestTracker in a different language; integrate a wiki with custom markdown-like syntax to dynamically pull data from the tickets; have a workflow to publish things from the internal side to a public side that makes it easy to audit for dynamic data flows. Design for self-federation, so that teams can have their own servers pub/sub queues, search across servers, and enact security boundaries. You now have a product that will work for about 90% of existing JIRA users. Sell it in three versions: open-source no support, self-hosted with support-per-user, and hosted SaaS with support per team.
- CamperBob2 4y ago
  "The clutch is fine. You're shifting it wrong."
netsharc 4y ago
The article feels like high-school level writing, it misses the part where the son of the corrupt Indonesian president owned the company (through a holding company in Bermuda) for a while.
benjaminsuch 4y ago
The bull names are intended. Since Audi took over, they name (almost) every car after a famous spanish bull.
hef19898 4y ago
Argueably tractors back the day were a lot closer to cars then they are now.

pmontra 4y ago

> The name “Countach”? It is pronounced coon-tasch and simply means "wow" in Italian. In the dialect of the place, not in Italian (I'm Italian.) I learned the origin of the name a few years ago. I always thought it was an English word or something and always mispronounced it.

inferiorhuman 4y ago
What I'd heard is that "countach" is the sort of expletive you'd say when you saw a beautiful woman. Although to be fair using regional slang makes some sense as the Countach dates to around the time that Italy was transitioning to Standard Italian.
- bozhark 4y ago
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  > Although to be fair using regional slang makes some sense as the Countach dates to around the time that Italy was transitioning to Standard Italian. ? Tuscan was the written standard for Italian since Petrarch and the Piedmontese conquest of Southern Italy was done by 1871. Admittedly colonization took a long time but it’s a very long time since anything but Tuscan has been used in official or prestige circumstances in Italian.
  - inferiorhuman 4y ago
    Sure but even sixty odd years later Mussolini was struggling to force people to drop their regional identities and adopt an Italian one. From what I can tell (as I'm neither that old nor Italian) even by the 50s or 60s it was still common to find folks who were only fluent in a regional language. > official or prestige circumstances in Italian Lamborghini differentiated itself from Ferrari in large part by being brash and in your face. Given what countach means I think it's pretty safe to say that they were not trying to come up with a prestigious name.

joebob42 4y ago

I'm surprised how few cars this is in total. It's kind of cool the brand has such a big impact with only low thousands of cars.

blocked_again 4y ago
Lamborghinis are ERC721s. Toyotos are ERC20s.
httpz 4y ago
Ferrari and Lamborghini each sell about 10k cars a year. What's more impressive is Pagani and Koenigsegg each only made about 200 cars ever.
- masklinn 4y ago
  It took Bugatti 9 years to shift their 450 Veyron. Though obviously these were different and I guess leaner times, the Chiron, much less of a loss leader (Veyrons supposedly cost VW $5 millions a piece, the retail price of the base model was $1 million) sold 200 units before the first one made it to a client, and the 500th (and last) unit was confirmed sold in January 2022, just under 6 years after the original announcement.
  - Grazester 4y ago
    The engine in the later Bugattis is the same engine from the Veyron (modified but largely the same I understand). So the cost of development when down on follow up cars.
- tromp 4y ago
  Koenigsegg will produce 300 of its latest hypercar, the Gemera [1], which looks like having the most interesting powertrain. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koenigsegg_Gemera https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koenigsegg_Gemera
- tromp 4y ago
  Koenigsegg will produce 300 of its latest hypercar, the (4 seater!) Gemera [1], which looks like having the most interesting powertrain ever. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koenigsegg_Gemera https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koenigsegg_Gemera

legitster 4y ago

There is a version of the story here where Enzo is not wrong. His #1 focus was building cars that won races. He was clear about that. And people bought his car because they won races. Lamborghini made amazing cars... that did not win many races. There are not many accounts of Enzo being a likeable person, or a great engineer, or even a particularly good business man. But it wasn't a "mistake" how he treated Ferruccio's ideas. So, maybe the moral of the story is listen to your customers. But it could also be: don't compromise and you'll still do fine, and they will go out and make what they want.

caycep 4y ago
It depends on the culture perhaps. "not invented here syndrome" often practiced by many tech companies. Granted, as an aside, my understanding is the 250 GTO line of models were meant as an afterthought to fund the racing side of things, but to my eye, they are the most beautiful Ferrari models. The supercar/racing inspired models often look ugly to me.
- prova_modena 4y ago
  Small correction, the "250 GTO" was a specific racing model, while the "250 GT" was a series of models encompassing both roadgoing and racing cars. I'm assuming you are referring to the roadgoing 250 GT models, such as the 250 GT Pininfarina Coupe, 250 GT California Spyder etc. The roadgoing 250 GT series was produced at the tail end of the "coachbuilt" era of automobiles, where the manufacturer sent the bare chassis and engine to a artisan shop specialized in the design and construction of the body. So you're correct that, from Ferrari's perspective, the design of these roadgoing models was secondary to the racing models. However, because it was not Ferrari's primary concern, it could be contracted out to coachbuilders such as Pininfarina. These firms were highly sophisticated designers and artisans and indeed produced some very beautiful work.
  - mlambie 4y ago
  - 4y ago

fosk 4y ago

Buy a Ferrari if you want to race, buy a Lamborghini if you want to shop on Rodeo drive.

short_sells_poo 4y ago
Modern Ferraris are amazing driver's cars. To this day, the single best driving experience I've ever had was in a 458 Speciale. There are better engineered cars, there are faster cars, there are more comfortable cars, but this to me is the embodiment of what a car can do. It is just an amazing feeling to drive it. It's like using a precision instrument that somehow immediately becomes an extension of your body. It's really uncanny. None of the Lamborghini's I was fortunate enough to drive came close to this.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Ferrari got rid of the gearshift :-(
  - mauvehaus 4y ago
    I like driving manual as much as the next person (and have been for 25 years), but I full well acknowledge that I'd be way out of my depth driving any modern Ferrari. And let's be honest: if you're worried about lap times, the flappy paddle gearbox is faster. It will never replace the joy of rowing your own gears or nailing a downshift, but it's almost certainly a win in terms of reliability under real world drivers and pace under all drivers.
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      The flappy paddle is cheating and boring. You gotta master the heal-toe brake double-clutch downshift going into a turn, or you're not a real driver.
      - mauvehaus 4y ago
        I'm not saying it's not, but I stand by my claim (completely unsupported by evidence, I'll admit) that somewhere between 4 and 6 nines of drivers are completely outclassed and lack the experience to drive a 500hp+ car competently, nevermind get the most out of it on a track, with a manual. I owned an '86 Subaru BRAT with an EJ22 swap and a cranky transmission (heel-toe and double clutching required down into 1 and 2), and truly nailing a smooth 3-2 downshift with the transmission shifting sweetly into 2 was an occasion to be celebrated. I am 100% confident that I'd nail it less than 1/10th as often in any modern supercar with a manual. I've also driven an E36 M3 (US spec) and a 458. I know I lack the training and experience to stay ahead of either of them on the limit. I suspect most other people do too.

WalterBright 4y ago

> He would also build sports cars. And – they would be faster and better than Enzo Ferrari's. This is what men do when they are insulted and told they can't do something.

kasey_junk 4y ago
Fail at what they set out to do?
- CamperBob2 4y ago
  If necessary, yes.
rektide 4y ago
Or they run for president. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHckZCxdRkA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHckZCxdRkA Or they continue becoming even more Tucker Carlson than they already were. (side note, supposedly Stewart was super super hungry in this) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFQFB5YpDZE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFQFB5YpDZE
- hinkley 4y ago
  "And yet you still wear a bowtie," is probably the saltiest thing Stewart ever said outside of a Congressional Hearing. And Carlson got fired a week or two after that. Unfortunately he seems to have landed on his claws. There is an alternative history in my head where Stewart moves into Graham's or McConnell's Congressional District and runs against them, on the success of his 9/11 lobbying.
  - rektide 4y ago
    > Unfortunately he seems to have landed on his claws. Definitely got a chuckle from this, wonderfully stated. Not sure I'd heard that expression before.
afarrell 4y ago
Or they take the other’s words in stride and decide their path based on what they already wanted to do anyway.

bmitc 4y ago

I found out about this rivalry through the YouTube video Lamborghini: Never Insult a Tractor Tycoon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5p4sAkjLSI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5p4sAkjLSI. It was a pretty good little documentary.

WalterBright 4y ago

The only problem with a Lambo is it's not a Ferrari.

Maursault 4y ago
You're failing to see their practicality, which they both lack in spades.[1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIahBbDxfG0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIahBbDxfG0
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Don't care. Ferrari or nothing.

treelovinhippie 4y ago

prova_modena 4y ago

Ferruccio Lamborghini was primarily interested in building comfortable, quick and stylish GT cars, not high performance sports cars or racing cars. In contrast, Enzo Ferrari was interested in producing road cars to fund the racing division of the company. From the present-day, it's easy to see why Lamborghini and Ferrari are "paired." Both are merchandising and branding behemoths, both produce thoroughly modern, refined sports cars that are often cross-shopped against each other. However, in the 1960s and 1970s these companies were definitely not two sides of the same coin, being run by idiosyncratic personalities with differing priorities. While the Miura and Countach are best remembered today, Lamborghini struggled tremendously to break in to the luxury GT market with the 350 GT, 400 GT, Islero, Jarama and Espada. They also tried and failed to compete with the Porsche 911 using the Urraco. Economic and manufacturing issues prevented Lamborghini from achieving lasting profitability in these markets. Thus, as described in the article, Lamborghini struggled through the 70s and 80s. In contrast, Ferrari was continually buoyed by positive publicity from racing and weathered the oil crisis using funding provided by Fiat. One part of the story that is glossed over by the article is the engineering team behind the early Lamborghini cars. The legendary popularity of the Miura and Countach and their crucial role in the Lamborghini story overshadow the fact that Ferruccio was not initially supportive of these cars, or of the idea of building racing-inspired high performance sports cars at all. In particular, the Miura was an "after-hours" project of three talented engineers: Gian Paolo Dallara, Paolo Stanzani and Bob Wallace. These three all had keen interest in racing cars and developed the Miura chassis without official support. After the completed chassis was shown at the 1966 Geneva Auto Show, favorable public response led Ferruccio to approve a production version. The success of the Miura allowed the small Lamborghini engineering team and body designer Gandini to have creative freedom in designing the Countach. However, if the company stayed true to Ferruccio's original goals and these engineers were not allowed to "play", these remarkable models would not exist at all. The article's states that ATS designed and built early Lamborghinis. This is historically inaccurate. The only ATS member that had a significant relationship with Lamborghini was Giotto Bizzarrini, who designed the V12 engine used in the 350 GT and subsequently refined and updated for use in many other Lamborghini models. Bizzarrini's association with Lamborghini was very brief, most likely only consisting of providing the engine design as a deliverable. The four person team of Bizzarrini, Dallara, Stanzani, and Wallace were responsible for the engineering of the early Lamborghini cars, not ATS. There's also an interesting story here behind the article's brief mention of the 1961 walkout/"palace revolt" where some of the leading technical talent left Ferrari and formed ATS. While this was a blow in the short term, Ferrari very quickly filled the void with a young engineer named Mauro Forghieri who became one of the most successful technical directors in the company's history. Enzo's willingness to bring in new, young talent when existing employees (and drivers!) proved unsatisfactory is a major theme in the company's history. Arguably, this tendency contributed to the company and team's ability to stay solvent and successful for so long under Enzo's management.

neilv 4y ago

> After some time, on to the stage comes the car that many, including myself, had on a poster in their rooms growing up. [...] – the Lamborghini Countach. Apparently, I have never had an original thought, :) including (just now) hunting for the particular Lambo poster I had: https://retromash.com/2017/03/15/the-hunt-for-this-amazing-lamborghini-countach-poster/ https://retromash.com/2017/03/15/the-hunt-for-this-amazing-l...

CamperBob2 4y ago
Nifty, that's the very one I had on my wall.

Aeolun 4y ago

Hmm, I think I’d buy Lamborghinis for the same reason I buy AMD over Intel.

pc86 4y ago
Which is?

SloopJon 4y ago

> After some time, on to the stage comes the car that many, including myself, had on a poster in their rooms growing up. One of my favorite posters growing up was a white Countach, about five feet long by maybe two feet high. I had a much smaller print of a Ferrari F40. The appeal for a kid like me, of course, being that each had some claim to the fastest production car at some point. It's kind of amazing to me that over sixteen years only about 2,000 were made. By comparison, there were about 9,000 DeLoreans in three years.

gbraad 4y ago

Perhaps this should now read "Fiat and Volkswagen rivalry" :-P

dsizzle 4y ago

They both sound terrible and shouldn't be allowed off a racetrack! :P

walrus01 4y ago

This may not be accurate, but from what I heard, it actually turned out that Lamborghini was a subject matter expert on that particular clutch, because it also happened to be used in some of his tractors. He tore down the failed Ferrari and found exactly what the actual third-party manufacturer of the clutch was. He was not exactly happy about it.

Animats 4y ago
Race cars are not made for long service intervals. If you have to replace the clutch plates after each race, that's quite acceptable. Formula I cars used to need a new engine for each race, although things have improved a bit.

z9znz 4y ago

For the person who has owned neither marque, it's only a question of feeling. Ferrari has always been beautiful and performance driven. Lamborghini has been design driven. Performance is there, but with more conditions. If you want iconic, you'll have more choices with Lamboroghini. If you want elegant and mechanically elegant, you _usually_ want Ferrari. Then there are specific models... Ferrari 250, in its various forms is a Mona Lisa to the viewers who appreciate it. Then there was the Testarossa, and then the F40. After that, the designs were also great, but they weren't so special at the right time. For Lambo, you have the Miura, Countach (probably the most recognizable supercar design of all time), and the Diablo. For the car enthusiast, it's rarely a direct comparison. At times one has the mechanical advantage, and at other times is a design appeal.

WalterBright 4y ago

Grand Prix (1967), at the Ferrari factory: "What means far more to me than anything else is: our good name! Our reputation represents desire for perfection of the highest quality. I gamble that reputation gladly, because I have absolute faith in every car that leaves this factory. But I will not risk it on a driver in whom I cannot have an equal faith. There are fewer than thirty men in the world qualified to drive Formula One; a mere half-dozen, perhaps, to win. At this moment, I am inclined to think you are not one of them." Ferrari was the shiznit for me after I saw that movie.

dboreham 4y ago

Perhaps we should document the associations between well known figures in our field/industry/business and these cars? I'll start: Iann Barron (Elliot, CTL, Inmos) had a white Countach as his daily driver. It was famously unreliable: supposedly the oil pan separated from the engine once while moving, and famously fast on the M4.

waingake 4y ago

I'll start a spite ~store~ car.

GVIrish 4y ago

Enzo Ferrari is such a unique character in automotive history. Not only did he piss off Ferruccio Lamborghini so much that he created a competing car company, he also enraged Henry Ford II so much that Ford decided to build the GT40 to beat Ferrari at the racetrack. I just find it fascinating that this one man was such an arrogant jerk that built such a compelling brand that he inspired an entirely new company and all time great racing program just to get revenge against him.

js2 4y ago
Ford famously went 1,2,3 at the 1966 Le Mans. In 1967 they'd also take first place from Ferrari. Here's a great historical film on that race: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH0R4MDDgns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH0R4MDDgns (Ford also took first in '68 and '69.) The 2016 documentary The 24-Hour War is pretty good watching too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pd-TNOjHGo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pd-TNOjHGo
praveenhm 4y ago
May be Enzo, is our current generation Elon Musk, who pisses off many people too, many built a rivalry car company.
dotancohen 4y ago
Many of history's greatest minds were complete jerks. I think that Newton is the quintessential example. But you've also got engineers, such as Edison, artists, such as Poe, inventors, such as Tesla (ha! take that Edison), and many many others.
benjaminsuch 4y ago
Well there is a saying: You always create your own devils I think it fits here.

httpz 4y ago

Pretty much every comment on this thread comparing Ferraris to Lamborghinis is overgeneralized and outdated. It really just depends on the era and the specific models you're comparing. Also the founders' original philosophies have long been diluted and that's not necessarily a bad thing for customers.

qqtt 4y ago

It's amazing how this story has fed into the myth making and brand for both companies. It's one of those "there are no losers here" anecdotes which can be used by both companies to attract customers (Lamborghini captured imaginations with their designs and Ferrari kept winning races). A marketer's dream scenario, so much so, it makes me question how much of this story is really true and how much this innocuous relationship between these two men really played at building their respective companies. In any case, amazing that in 2022 there are still new articles being written about these events and still interest in hearing it. Story telling is essential in building a brand that captures public interest - those who aim to mass market their product, take notes.

JohnJamesRambo 4y ago
How much of Steve Jobs vs. Bill Gates was real?
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  The part where both billionaires were laughing all the way to the bank.
Animats 4y ago
Usually, such stories are planted just before someone is about to announce a new product.
- basch 4y ago
  It doesn't seem well enough written to be a plant. It reads like a middle school term paper or an AI assembled clickbait article.
nazka 4y ago
As a writing side note since you talk about story telling. No need to place parentheses here. I enjoy reading your own comment and anything you have to say can be interesting too :)

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avereveard 4y ago

https://www.quartamarcia.it/la-lite-tra-ferrari-e-lamborghini-una-grande-bugia/ https://www.quartamarcia.it/la-lite-tra-ferrari-e-lamborghin... The story was quite embellished in time. Stanzani had a different, simpler recollection. Besides, I'm Italian, born in the eighties. I may not have lived the seventies so I cannot comment about back then, but in my time there never was a perceived rivalry between the two brand. They sit in completely separated market segments, with quite orthogonal mind shares.

nafey 4y ago
Interestingly Ferrucio Lamborghini's son has commented on this blog post disputing its version of the story.

DeathArrow 4y ago

35 years ago, people in my country were dreaming about Renault, Citroen, Peugeot, Volkswagen. Those were our car legends. They were as hard to obtain as Lamborghini and Ferrari in rich countries.

DeathArrow 4y ago

Imagine if it was the other way around and a disappointed Enzo Ferrari started to make tractors. :D

dotancohen 4y ago
You're one of today's lucky 10,000! https://www.ferraritractor.com/ https://www.ferraritractor.com/
- usrusr 4y ago
  Same family name, same region, but apparently that company had already been making tractors for a few years when Lamborghini's proposals were dismissed.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]

benoliver999 4y ago

Iain Tyrell has just published a video where he is sent to authenticate the actual Ferrari 250 GT Ferruccio was pissed off with. Includes some clutch-swapping to see if any Lamborghini clutches might fit inside the Ferrari. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4n9EeiKhCA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4n9EeiKhCA

thisNeeds2BeSad 4y ago

Outrageous ego is sort of a pre-requisit if you want to outlive a established dogma/organization you are going up against, which will punnish non-conformity on every step - either that or you are doing a sort of "secret agent" subversion with a cell like structure on the inside.

stevenjgarner 4y ago

What a great story for a movie! Alright you armchair casting directors, who would play Ferruccio and who would play Enzo?