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Apart from sharing the opinion here that this is a customer hostile move... I'm pretty happy that my bikes (MTB and Road) have zero electric components (not ev

Apart from sharing the opinion here that this is a customer hostile move... I'm pretty happy that my bikes (MTB and Road) have zero electric components (not even light if I don't strap it on) and I want to keep it that way. I have yet so see an electric part that I need or that even just provides me with enough benefit that it's worth the hassle of freakin' firware updates. Much less having a CAN bus on my bike? is this only for electric bikes or also for gears? I'm confused... Anyhow, I always thought that running a bike repair shop might be my plan B for when I finally get fed up with computers, but I recently realized bikes are now computers with wheels, just like cars and fridges and toasters and door bells... So I'm looking for a new plan B. FWIW, just as with fridges and toasters, I think this is a move in the wrong direction. It increases CO2/pollution footprint and reduces lifetime. And as we see here, it opens you up to a whole new class of customer abuse.

Crabber 4y ago
IMO the bicycle was perfected 20+ years ago There is nothing left to be improved, only gimmicks with aggressive marketing Just be happy with the bike you have, and ride
- jamincan 4y ago
  There have been a number of transformational things in the last 5-10 years that are far from gimmicks. Wider tires on road bikes. Disc brakes for cx and mtb. Dropper posts and 1x drive trains on mtb. Cycling is rife with orthodoxy that begs to be challenged.
  - Crabber 4y ago
    Disc brakes were available in 1975, wide tires before that. Dropper posts I consider to be a gimmick. 1x drivetrains do have some drawbacks, but I consider them overall to be a good improvement to the simplicity of a bike so I will grant you that.
    - charrondev 4y ago
      I just bought a bike with a 1x12 drivetrain and I’m quite enjoying it.
      - deebosong 4y ago
        If I may inquire, as someone curious about 1x's, what do you like about them over 2x or 3x? Did you put the 1x on a road bike, or something or other? I'm not into racing, but I like going hard and fast (relative to my fitness), and find that I don't really care about cadence, but I do like range and minimalism. Makes me think a 1x, even on road, would be great for me, even if I'd keep my 2x's, since they work perfectly fine. Only if/ when the components wear out, maybe I'd do the 1x switcheroo.
        doubled112 4y ago
        One less derailleur to adjust or have fail, so less maintenance. No worries about chain angle in certain gear combinations. Front chain ring can be cheaper/more durable/flippable because it doesn't need ramps/pins/grooves. I did a 3x8 to 1x8 conversion on a hard tail mountain bike I was commuting on a while back (~8 years ago). There was some messing around with chain line, but over all a simpler setup when I was done. I'd bet it is even simpler to get done now.
        femiagbabiaka 4y ago
        Funny enough cross chaining on 1x tends to be worse if you want to get enough range out of the back (1x12/13). That combined with how thin chains are getting to accommodate the big cassettes makes me feel like the limit of 1x will be reached soon.
        doubled112 4y ago
        That's probably true. I stuck with 8 back then because it's good enough, and the more thin and precise things get, the more expensive yet less tolerant of road salt they seem to become. 2x13 seems like more ratios than I'd ever need, but who am I to say that applies to everybody?
  - smallbluedot 4y ago
    I'd throw tubeless tires for MTB and gravel into that group.
  - nradov 4y ago
    Dropper seat posts are even coming to road bikes now. As large, heavy person with a high center of gravity I welcome this trend. Descending Mt. Umunhum on my road bike is a hair-raising experience. https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/bikes-and-biking/dropper-post-road-bike/ https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/bikes-and-biking/...
- ubermonkey 4y ago
  At least your username is on point. Should all these new riders also get off your lawn with electronic shifting, GPS computers, and carbon frames?
- focusedone 4y ago
  You're not wrong. I built up a frame from '89 with random leftovers from more recent bikes and it works. No oddball standards or 'well, you'll have to get an adapter' silliness. It was kindof refreshing to build AND it functions just fine. Somewhere in the 90's - early 00's was peak bike and I think most (but not all) progress after that came from marketing departments. Exceptions: MTB geometry changes (debatable), dropper posts, aero wheels. Not exceptions: internal cable routing, proprietary integrated brakes/handlebars/stems/bottle cages/forks, 1x don't @ me.
cyberpanther 4y ago
Built my last road bike from the ground up and I would say electronic shifting is my favorite part. Its more precise and easier to maintain than cable shifting. All this compatibility warring sucks of course. But there's tons of merit to going digital on certain bike parts.
- mikeryan 4y ago
  I was just going to say this except on my mountain bike. Just put AXS wireless shifter on there and was surprised at how nice it made the shifting. I barely ever charge it and have an extra battery that travels with my mountain bike “box o crap” just in case.
- artdigital 4y ago
  Ultegra? I sadly bought a bike just before Ultegra switched to electronic shifting, so mine is just barely the model before. It looks very interesting though, maybe one day...
ehnto 4y ago
I wouldn't be too discouraged, it's still pretty rare to see on most bikes. I don't feel like it will become the norm outside of very-high-end, just because it can never be cheaper than cable shifted. People buying very-high-end stuff are usually acquainted with the warranty/return to manufacturer process so at least it won't be your hassle. I have had the same though by the way. I reckon a small bike shop would be a great little business to run into retirement.
- wl 4y ago
  Electronic shifting is already the norm on bikes $5,000+. Shimano is about to introduce an electronic version of their 105 groupset, which will probably normalize electronic shifting on bikes in the $2,000+ price range. Electronic Tiagra and Sora are probably less than a decade away, which will drive that number even lower.
  - sudosysgen 4y ago
    I feel like electronic shifting can be made cheap enough that I expect it to show up on 200$ Chinese groupsets soon
  - caycep 4y ago
    I wouldn't mind it if ultegra/dura ace also came w/ a mechanical option. But to completely d/c mechanical w/ the latest flagship groups and not provide an option? that's harsh...
crispyambulance 4y ago
I feel similarly about computers on bikes, even though I've had them for years before ditching them. There's another facet to the problem of bike computers and I don't know if others feel this way but for me at least quantifying the time on the bike distracts from the joy of riding. Every time I turned on the bike computer it felt like I was "time-trialing" against myself, my previous rides, and randos whose stats I saw on Strava. It started to really make me miserable especially because as the years passed my "performance" more or less continuously degraded. I feel differently about electronic shifting, though I probably will never experience it as my bike still has 2000's "vintage" Campy 9-speed and I see no need to ever change that unless I wreck it. The Shimano alfine internal hub has some models that use electronic shifting. It might be good on a utility bike-- if it's easy enough to deal with.
- pmontra 4y ago
  You can use an old style computer: speed, time, distance. No internet, nothing else. The ones with 7 segment LCD digits. They are cheap, battery lasts years and you still get the information that matters most.
  - javajosh 4y ago
    For me the information that matters most is subjective: how do I feel? What is my output? Do I feel that my pedal rotation is too fast or too slow? Do I feel fast? The one exception is when there's a strong headwind, for some reason I find a velocity display to be very motivational. Distance is useful sometimes. But everything else is distraction.
    - asdff 4y ago
      Its bewildering all the consumer products that go on to track things like watts, etc. I played competitive sports in school and we never bothered with anything like that even if it was available. You run until you are exhausted then you run some more. Same thing with a bike ride if you are trying to put work in imo. Want to train for hills? forget the Peloton, just go and ride up some hills until your legs are cooked, and next week you will be able to ride longer.
talove 4y ago
FWIW, the electronic drivetrains are superior in just about every performance metric, aside from needing to be charged every few weeks. You might not want an tablet computer in your refrigerator door but electronic bike shifting is more akin to going from carbureted to fuel injected engines, it is the more reliable and tunable of the two options.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- TheCondor 4y ago
  Long time cat3 here. This simply isn’t true, across the board they are heavier. Satellite shifter are wonderful, but that’s not a performance metric. Also, fwiw, races have been lost due to shifting power being out and being stuck in a gear. Rigo Uran stands out, a few years back at the Tour. I’m not a hater, I have some electronic shifting in my stable. Editing, I was misremembering my gruppo weights, they are on parity.
  - petre 4y ago
    > Also, fwiw, races have been lost due to shifting power being out In addition to a mechanical now one might have an electronical. I hate tuning my mech shifters, but Di2 cable routing inside the frame, seatpost batteries? No thanx. I hope it has improved since the seatpost battery days.
  - loeg 4y ago
    Has no one snapped a mech shifter cable in a race? (I don’t follow the professional racing.)
  - taude 4y ago
    Also that problem a few years back in the Tour was when the tech was new, wasn't it? Don't hear as much about that as much anymore. Flat tires are still far more common.
- jskrablin 4y ago
  What's not reliable and tunable when using classic, cable operated gear shifting? I'm all ears, since my offroad bikes are usually getting thrown around a lot, are usually dirty and covered in mud... and gear shifting just works, no need to charge anything and require some adjustments once per year... I understand that some people get excited about just any $shinynewtoy but unless you're in a position to take measurable performance gain out of it... it's really just a $shinynewtoy. There's a lot more performance to be gained with improving the rider, losing weight, etc. Or maybe just stop being obsessed by specs, performance, results, comparing oneself to others and just start to enjoy riding.
xattt 4y ago
Re: lights on bikes. Dynamos and dynamo hubs thankfully remain constrained by physics, so they will remain interoperable with a number of brands for a long time. I highly recommend anyone that uses a bicycle for any meaningful amount as part of their day-to-day routine to get a dynamo hub and a light. You will save your sanity with battery replacements.
- hyperbovine 4y ago
  But be prepared for constantly having to deal with well-meaning people saying “Excuse me, you left your light on!”.
  - bradfa 4y ago
    I always have my battery powered lights on when I'm riding on the road, even in the middle of the day. I run a bright red rear light (not flashing 100-200 lumens depending on time of day) and a bright amber or white front light (120 lumen amber during daylight, 200-800 lumen white near sunrise/sunset or when dark). Car drivers are very unaware of their surroundings, any additional indication I can give them to pay attention to me and not hit me is worth it for me. I want my lights to look like drivers expect car lights to look, as that's what they're trained to look for.
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  Mmmm I'm not sure about that universally in cities at least. I have dynamo lights on one bike and I love them. BUT the wheels on a decent bike are already the single most expensive part and easiest to steal if you're sloppy about your locking. Dynamo hub + custom wheel build just doubled the value of what was already the most stealable component. It definitely changes when and where I ride that bike in ways that don't always mesh well with the advantages of the dynamo. I still prefer it but if I didn't have a cheaper less desirable bike for some lockup situations I'm not sure I'd do it.
  - xattt 4y ago
    I should check my privilege of living in a place with trivial bike thefts. I’ve gotten used to sticking my u-lock through the frame, bike rack and front wheel, but haven’t had it realistically challenged to know if it’s effective.
thot_experiment 4y ago
This is why I ride a brakeless track bike, everything else is just putting another level of annoying indirection between you and the thing you want to be doing.
- ndsipa_pomu 4y ago
  Is that legal to ride on the road? Have a read of https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/sep/18/cyclist-charlie-alliston-jailed-for-18-months-over-death-of-pedestrian https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/sep/18/cyclist...
  - ubermonkey 4y ago
    In the US, yeah, they are as far as I know. Fixie riders are generally not welcome on roadie group rides. It's not IMPOSSIBLE to learn to ride predictably and safely on one, but most fixie riders seem completely disinterested in the discipline required. (See also: tri bikes.)
    - giraffe_lady 4y ago
      Road riders are also not really welcome on fixed gear rides because they're unwilling to hop curbs and scare drivers to keep the flow. It's different cultures and skill sets for sure but framing it as "discipline" is kinda shitty imo.
      - ubermonkey 4y ago
        It takes discipline and skill to ride in a double paceline at speed. I don't know what else to call it.
        thot_experiment 4y ago
        We're just not interested in that particular thing, but we are disciplined. Riding to place in an alleycat absolutely requires discipline.
alisonatwork 4y ago
One thing I noticed after cycling across North America on a $500 hybrid and then Colombia on a $200 utility bike was that there is a wildly different class of cyclist that rides with computers and carbon fiber and shiny jerseys... They were as baffled by my setup as I was by theirs. It's almost an entirely different category of transportation. Or perhaps it isn't so much a form of transportation for them, it's a hobby - they often drive their bikes to the place they want to ride instead of just riding the in-between. I imagine there is room to cater to both types of cyclist. Perhaps it was a self-selecting group for me, but I found every mechanic I visited on the road to be most busy with repairs of low-tech gear. It seems to me that low-tech bikes will continue to make up the long tail for many years to come, even if catering to those customers is less lucrative.
- ubermonkey 4y ago
  Yeah, there's a difference between utility riders and hobby riders. You wouldn't be able to keep up on my Saturday rides on a hybrid unless you've got world-tour legs. The riding position and gearing are just not intended for go-fast go-far riding. You don't really even see many hybrids on large-scale charity rides, at least in the US. And yeah, quite often people do load up bikes to drive to a ride. I guess for transportation riders this sounds weird, but if you live in location A and the you want to do a group ride at location B that's 20 miles away (not unusual in a big urban area), then I'm not sure what else you'd do. I'm likely going to a ride out in the southwestern suburbs here in Houston on Saturday, for example. The start is 23 miles from my house, and there's not a great cycling-friendly way to get there, so I'll load up and drive. I do share your concern about long-term use. We're far enough into the electronic shifting era that early systems are falling out of the support window. Shimano's earliest Di2 systems were only 10-speed, for example; I imagine finding replacement rear derailleurs for that system is nearly impossible now, but OTOH lifespan of a rear derailleur is pretty long. The version of SRAM's eTap on my bike is 11-speed; it's been updated since, so new bikes come with a 12-speed version called AXS. I don't know if I could easily get a replacement derailleur for mine, but TBH I also wonder that about the mechanical Ultegra derailleur on my other road bike.
  - giraffe_lady 4y ago
ubermonkey 4y ago
Electronic shifting is actually pretty great. I get that it's not something everyone wants, but you owe it to yourself to give it a test ride before you dismiss it entirely. It's fast, it's always precise (never drifts; no cables to stretch), insanely stable, requires virtually no effort to shift, and (at least for me) has provided a more reliable platform than cable-pull Ultegra was. The mech system was prone to alignment issues, cable issues, etc. With eTap, I just charge it every few weeks and I'm done. Also, re: consumer abuse, read the linked article. Shimano are only able to do this because their connectivity is proprietary, apparently. More modern systems rely on open standards, apparently.
taude 4y ago
I was pretty anti-electronic shifting on my bikes...but once you have it, it's hard to go back. The automatic derailleur tuning to always have snappy, responsive shifts it pretty amazing. And then not having to change cables out is a nice bonus, though not a deal breaker. And even the aesthetics of a cable free bike begins to grow on you. luckily, battery charging is pretty simple, and I've been always having to charge a bike computer for the past 15 years anyway, so not a big deal to plug it in every couple of month. (This is coming from someone who used to single-speed mountain bike a lot, for the "simplicity" and because I was lazy to have to maintain much on my MTB). I'm kind of looking forward to a day when they get the internal hub thing dialed in and lightweight and can handle a lot of torq and not have the drag penalty, etc.... That said, I don't use any integrated shifting->head unit functionality. Not really sure what someone would use it for other than checking battery levels? Which is super simple to see on the hardware itself. And which is easier to just get off my phone. Also, firmware updates are typically pretty simple these days due to the pretty decent phone app support. I've done firmware updates on both a Wahoo computer and SRAM shifting, and it was really straightforward, and never for a critical item, yet, only to get more features (though I'm not an early adapter in any of this). I guess I'll find out mre about Di2 specific integrations when my next bike arrives...
- AstralStorm 4y ago
  Electronic shifting, while nice, is inferior to continuously variable transmission. It's that nobody has managed to get that done cheap and reliably - and it'd have to be inside a gear hub too. It's been done reliably, just not cheap. Mitsubishi with its v-belt has probably the cheapest somewhat reliable version, others less reliable based on expanding chain. Enviolo also makes one of these groupsets. Very new tech in bikes though, if used at all. Ancient tech everywhere else, and can be done even better than these attempts.
infecto 4y ago
Going to have to disagree. Electronic shifting is definitely not a move in the wrong direction. I used to be in in the camp where I thought electronic shifting was a gimmick. I got a bike that happened to come with di2 and its simply amazing. The shifts are responsive and clean. Adjustments are hardly ever needed and if you do, the process is beyond quick and amazingly accurate. I don't need to test shifting it through all the steps. Do you need it on a commuter bike? Definitely not but for a hobby bike (road cycling, gravel, mtb) its a really nice to have feature. Since you are already confused I would put you in the commuting territory (maybe unfair) which makes sense, its not really a useful feature in those cases. These have been around for a while and in the past few years cheap enough that it becomes a nice upgrade for hobby users. Unless we hit mass extinction there is no way to stop progress. Humanity is going to continue to innovate and create. Sometimes those things are totally unnecessary. We should be looking to the future as a beacon of hope. Not trying to argue that we should not be mindful of our level of consumerism BUT humanity is going to keep innovating and lets look to the future that we will solve problems. Not that we are going to move back to an agrarian lifestyle. These devices most likely have an increase footprint, you now have a small motor and battery compared to a cable but the lifetime of the product I think is on-par or increased. Better shifting means longer chain/chain ring life.
pharmakom 4y ago
Dynamo powered components are an exception. Great interoperability, repairability and product life.
dd82 4y ago
I'm the same way with my bikes, but after renting a bike in Santa Cruz, I definitely noticed a positive difference in shifting promptness with electronic vs cable. Not enough for me to retrofit an existing bike, but enough to use as a criteria point when comparing models. In some ways, its like going to linear brakes after using modulated for so long. Different experience, and I definitely prefer Shimano 4pot calipers over Srams.

Crabber 4y ago

IMO the bicycle was perfected 20+ years ago There is nothing left to be improved, only gimmicks with aggressive marketing Just be happy with the bike you have, and ride

jamincan 4y ago
There have been a number of transformational things in the last 5-10 years that are far from gimmicks. Wider tires on road bikes. Disc brakes for cx and mtb. Dropper posts and 1x drive trains on mtb. Cycling is rife with orthodoxy that begs to be challenged.
- Crabber 4y ago
  Disc brakes were available in 1975, wide tires before that. Dropper posts I consider to be a gimmick. 1x drivetrains do have some drawbacks, but I consider them overall to be a good improvement to the simplicity of a bike so I will grant you that.
  - charrondev 4y ago
    I just bought a bike with a 1x12 drivetrain and I’m quite enjoying it.
    - deebosong 4y ago
      If I may inquire, as someone curious about 1x's, what do you like about them over 2x or 3x? Did you put the 1x on a road bike, or something or other? I'm not into racing, but I like going hard and fast (relative to my fitness), and find that I don't really care about cadence, but I do like range and minimalism. Makes me think a 1x, even on road, would be great for me, even if I'd keep my 2x's, since they work perfectly fine. Only if/ when the components wear out, maybe I'd do the 1x switcheroo.
      - doubled112 4y ago
        One less derailleur to adjust or have fail, so less maintenance. No worries about chain angle in certain gear combinations. Front chain ring can be cheaper/more durable/flippable because it doesn't need ramps/pins/grooves. I did a 3x8 to 1x8 conversion on a hard tail mountain bike I was commuting on a while back (~8 years ago). There was some messing around with chain line, but over all a simpler setup when I was done. I'd bet it is even simpler to get done now.
        femiagbabiaka 4y ago
        Funny enough cross chaining on 1x tends to be worse if you want to get enough range out of the back (1x12/13). That combined with how thin chains are getting to accommodate the big cassettes makes me feel like the limit of 1x will be reached soon.
        doubled112 4y ago
        That's probably true. I stuck with 8 back then because it's good enough, and the more thin and precise things get, the more expensive yet less tolerant of road salt they seem to become. 2x13 seems like more ratios than I'd ever need, but who am I to say that applies to everybody?
- smallbluedot 4y ago
  I'd throw tubeless tires for MTB and gravel into that group.
- nradov 4y ago
  Dropper seat posts are even coming to road bikes now. As large, heavy person with a high center of gravity I welcome this trend. Descending Mt. Umunhum on my road bike is a hair-raising experience. https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/bikes-and-biking/dropper-post-road-bike/ https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/bikes-and-biking/...
ubermonkey 4y ago
At least your username is on point. Should all these new riders also get off your lawn with electronic shifting, GPS computers, and carbon frames?
focusedone 4y ago
You're not wrong. I built up a frame from '89 with random leftovers from more recent bikes and it works. No oddball standards or 'well, you'll have to get an adapter' silliness. It was kindof refreshing to build AND it functions just fine. Somewhere in the 90's - early 00's was peak bike and I think most (but not all) progress after that came from marketing departments. Exceptions: MTB geometry changes (debatable), dropper posts, aero wheels. Not exceptions: internal cable routing, proprietary integrated brakes/handlebars/stems/bottle cages/forks, 1x don't @ me.

cyberpanther 4y ago

Built my last road bike from the ground up and I would say electronic shifting is my favorite part. Its more precise and easier to maintain than cable shifting. All this compatibility warring sucks of course. But there's tons of merit to going digital on certain bike parts.

mikeryan 4y ago
I was just going to say this except on my mountain bike. Just put AXS wireless shifter on there and was surprised at how nice it made the shifting. I barely ever charge it and have an extra battery that travels with my mountain bike “box o crap” just in case.
artdigital 4y ago
Ultegra? I sadly bought a bike just before Ultegra switched to electronic shifting, so mine is just barely the model before. It looks very interesting though, maybe one day...

ehnto 4y ago

I wouldn't be too discouraged, it's still pretty rare to see on most bikes. I don't feel like it will become the norm outside of very-high-end, just because it can never be cheaper than cable shifted. People buying very-high-end stuff are usually acquainted with the warranty/return to manufacturer process so at least it won't be your hassle. I have had the same though by the way. I reckon a small bike shop would be a great little business to run into retirement.

wl 4y ago
Electronic shifting is already the norm on bikes $5,000+. Shimano is about to introduce an electronic version of their 105 groupset, which will probably normalize electronic shifting on bikes in the $2,000+ price range. Electronic Tiagra and Sora are probably less than a decade away, which will drive that number even lower.
- sudosysgen 4y ago
  I feel like electronic shifting can be made cheap enough that I expect it to show up on 200$ Chinese groupsets soon
- caycep 4y ago
  I wouldn't mind it if ultegra/dura ace also came w/ a mechanical option. But to completely d/c mechanical w/ the latest flagship groups and not provide an option? that's harsh...

crispyambulance 4y ago

I feel similarly about computers on bikes, even though I've had them for years before ditching them. There's another facet to the problem of bike computers and I don't know if others feel this way but for me at least quantifying the time on the bike distracts from the joy of riding. Every time I turned on the bike computer it felt like I was "time-trialing" against myself, my previous rides, and randos whose stats I saw on Strava. It started to really make me miserable especially because as the years passed my "performance" more or less continuously degraded. I feel differently about electronic shifting, though I probably will never experience it as my bike still has 2000's "vintage" Campy 9-speed and I see no need to ever change that unless I wreck it. The Shimano alfine internal hub has some models that use electronic shifting. It might be good on a utility bike-- if it's easy enough to deal with.

pmontra 4y ago
You can use an old style computer: speed, time, distance. No internet, nothing else. The ones with 7 segment LCD digits. They are cheap, battery lasts years and you still get the information that matters most.
- javajosh 4y ago
  For me the information that matters most is subjective: how do I feel? What is my output? Do I feel that my pedal rotation is too fast or too slow? Do I feel fast? The one exception is when there's a strong headwind, for some reason I find a velocity display to be very motivational. Distance is useful sometimes. But everything else is distraction.
  - asdff 4y ago
    Its bewildering all the consumer products that go on to track things like watts, etc. I played competitive sports in school and we never bothered with anything like that even if it was available. You run until you are exhausted then you run some more. Same thing with a bike ride if you are trying to put work in imo. Want to train for hills? forget the Peloton, just go and ride up some hills until your legs are cooked, and next week you will be able to ride longer.

talove 4y ago

FWIW, the electronic drivetrains are superior in just about every performance metric, aside from needing to be charged every few weeks. You might not want an tablet computer in your refrigerator door but electronic bike shifting is more akin to going from carbureted to fuel injected engines, it is the more reliable and tunable of the two options.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
TheCondor 4y ago
Long time cat3 here. This simply isn’t true, across the board they are heavier. Satellite shifter are wonderful, but that’s not a performance metric. Also, fwiw, races have been lost due to shifting power being out and being stuck in a gear. Rigo Uran stands out, a few years back at the Tour. I’m not a hater, I have some electronic shifting in my stable. Editing, I was misremembering my gruppo weights, they are on parity.
- petre 4y ago
  > Also, fwiw, races have been lost due to shifting power being out In addition to a mechanical now one might have an electronical. I hate tuning my mech shifters, but Di2 cable routing inside the frame, seatpost batteries? No thanx. I hope it has improved since the seatpost battery days.
- loeg 4y ago
  Has no one snapped a mech shifter cable in a race? (I don’t follow the professional racing.)
- taude 4y ago
  Also that problem a few years back in the Tour was when the tech was new, wasn't it? Don't hear as much about that as much anymore. Flat tires are still far more common.
jskrablin 4y ago
What's not reliable and tunable when using classic, cable operated gear shifting? I'm all ears, since my offroad bikes are usually getting thrown around a lot, are usually dirty and covered in mud... and gear shifting just works, no need to charge anything and require some adjustments once per year... I understand that some people get excited about just any $shinynewtoy but unless you're in a position to take measurable performance gain out of it... it's really just a $shinynewtoy. There's a lot more performance to be gained with improving the rider, losing weight, etc. Or maybe just stop being obsessed by specs, performance, results, comparing oneself to others and just start to enjoy riding.

xattt 4y ago

Re: lights on bikes. Dynamos and dynamo hubs thankfully remain constrained by physics, so they will remain interoperable with a number of brands for a long time. I highly recommend anyone that uses a bicycle for any meaningful amount as part of their day-to-day routine to get a dynamo hub and a light. You will save your sanity with battery replacements.

hyperbovine 4y ago
But be prepared for constantly having to deal with well-meaning people saying “Excuse me, you left your light on!”.
- bradfa 4y ago
  I always have my battery powered lights on when I'm riding on the road, even in the middle of the day. I run a bright red rear light (not flashing 100-200 lumens depending on time of day) and a bright amber or white front light (120 lumen amber during daylight, 200-800 lumen white near sunrise/sunset or when dark). Car drivers are very unaware of their surroundings, any additional indication I can give them to pay attention to me and not hit me is worth it for me. I want my lights to look like drivers expect car lights to look, as that's what they're trained to look for.
giraffe_lady 4y ago
Mmmm I'm not sure about that universally in cities at least. I have dynamo lights on one bike and I love them. BUT the wheels on a decent bike are already the single most expensive part and easiest to steal if you're sloppy about your locking. Dynamo hub + custom wheel build just doubled the value of what was already the most stealable component. It definitely changes when and where I ride that bike in ways that don't always mesh well with the advantages of the dynamo. I still prefer it but if I didn't have a cheaper less desirable bike for some lockup situations I'm not sure I'd do it.
- xattt 4y ago
  I should check my privilege of living in a place with trivial bike thefts. I’ve gotten used to sticking my u-lock through the frame, bike rack and front wheel, but haven’t had it realistically challenged to know if it’s effective.

thot_experiment 4y ago

This is why I ride a brakeless track bike, everything else is just putting another level of annoying indirection between you and the thing you want to be doing.

ndsipa_pomu 4y ago
Is that legal to ride on the road? Have a read of https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/sep/18/cyclist-charlie-alliston-jailed-for-18-months-over-death-of-pedestrian https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/sep/18/cyclist...
- ubermonkey 4y ago
  In the US, yeah, they are as far as I know. Fixie riders are generally not welcome on roadie group rides. It's not IMPOSSIBLE to learn to ride predictably and safely on one, but most fixie riders seem completely disinterested in the discipline required. (See also: tri bikes.)
  - giraffe_lady 4y ago
    Road riders are also not really welcome on fixed gear rides because they're unwilling to hop curbs and scare drivers to keep the flow. It's different cultures and skill sets for sure but framing it as "discipline" is kinda shitty imo.
    - ubermonkey 4y ago
      It takes discipline and skill to ride in a double paceline at speed. I don't know what else to call it.
      - thot_experiment 4y ago
        We're just not interested in that particular thing, but we are disciplined. Riding to place in an alleycat absolutely requires discipline.

alisonatwork 4y ago

One thing I noticed after cycling across North America on a $500 hybrid and then Colombia on a $200 utility bike was that there is a wildly different class of cyclist that rides with computers and carbon fiber and shiny jerseys... They were as baffled by my setup as I was by theirs. It's almost an entirely different category of transportation. Or perhaps it isn't so much a form of transportation for them, it's a hobby - they often drive their bikes to the place they want to ride instead of just riding the in-between. I imagine there is room to cater to both types of cyclist. Perhaps it was a self-selecting group for me, but I found every mechanic I visited on the road to be most busy with repairs of low-tech gear. It seems to me that low-tech bikes will continue to make up the long tail for many years to come, even if catering to those customers is less lucrative.

ubermonkey 4y ago
Yeah, there's a difference between utility riders and hobby riders. You wouldn't be able to keep up on my Saturday rides on a hybrid unless you've got world-tour legs. The riding position and gearing are just not intended for go-fast go-far riding. You don't really even see many hybrids on large-scale charity rides, at least in the US. And yeah, quite often people do load up bikes to drive to a ride. I guess for transportation riders this sounds weird, but if you live in location A and the you want to do a group ride at location B that's 20 miles away (not unusual in a big urban area), then I'm not sure what else you'd do. I'm likely going to a ride out in the southwestern suburbs here in Houston on Saturday, for example. The start is 23 miles from my house, and there's not a great cycling-friendly way to get there, so I'll load up and drive. I do share your concern about long-term use. We're far enough into the electronic shifting era that early systems are falling out of the support window. Shimano's earliest Di2 systems were only 10-speed, for example; I imagine finding replacement rear derailleurs for that system is nearly impossible now, but OTOH lifespan of a rear derailleur is pretty long. The version of SRAM's eTap on my bike is 11-speed; it's been updated since, so new bikes come with a 12-speed version called AXS. I don't know if I could easily get a replacement derailleur for mine, but TBH I also wonder that about the mechanical Ultegra derailleur on my other road bike.
- giraffe_lady 4y ago

ubermonkey 4y ago

Electronic shifting is actually pretty great. I get that it's not something everyone wants, but you owe it to yourself to give it a test ride before you dismiss it entirely. It's fast, it's always precise (never drifts; no cables to stretch), insanely stable, requires virtually no effort to shift, and (at least for me) has provided a more reliable platform than cable-pull Ultegra was. The mech system was prone to alignment issues, cable issues, etc. With eTap, I just charge it every few weeks and I'm done. Also, re: consumer abuse, read the linked article. Shimano are only able to do this because their connectivity is proprietary, apparently. More modern systems rely on open standards, apparently.

taude 4y ago

I was pretty anti-electronic shifting on my bikes...but once you have it, it's hard to go back. The automatic derailleur tuning to always have snappy, responsive shifts it pretty amazing. And then not having to change cables out is a nice bonus, though not a deal breaker. And even the aesthetics of a cable free bike begins to grow on you. luckily, battery charging is pretty simple, and I've been always having to charge a bike computer for the past 15 years anyway, so not a big deal to plug it in every couple of month. (This is coming from someone who used to single-speed mountain bike a lot, for the "simplicity" and because I was lazy to have to maintain much on my MTB). I'm kind of looking forward to a day when they get the internal hub thing dialed in and lightweight and can handle a lot of torq and not have the drag penalty, etc.... That said, I don't use any integrated shifting->head unit functionality. Not really sure what someone would use it for other than checking battery levels? Which is super simple to see on the hardware itself. And which is easier to just get off my phone. Also, firmware updates are typically pretty simple these days due to the pretty decent phone app support. I've done firmware updates on both a Wahoo computer and SRAM shifting, and it was really straightforward, and never for a critical item, yet, only to get more features (though I'm not an early adapter in any of this). I guess I'll find out mre about Di2 specific integrations when my next bike arrives...

AstralStorm 4y ago
Electronic shifting, while nice, is inferior to continuously variable transmission. It's that nobody has managed to get that done cheap and reliably - and it'd have to be inside a gear hub too. It's been done reliably, just not cheap. Mitsubishi with its v-belt has probably the cheapest somewhat reliable version, others less reliable based on expanding chain. Enviolo also makes one of these groupsets. Very new tech in bikes though, if used at all. Ancient tech everywhere else, and can be done even better than these attempts.

infecto 4y ago

Going to have to disagree. Electronic shifting is definitely not a move in the wrong direction. I used to be in in the camp where I thought electronic shifting was a gimmick. I got a bike that happened to come with di2 and its simply amazing. The shifts are responsive and clean. Adjustments are hardly ever needed and if you do, the process is beyond quick and amazingly accurate. I don't need to test shifting it through all the steps. Do you need it on a commuter bike? Definitely not but for a hobby bike (road cycling, gravel, mtb) its a really nice to have feature. Since you are already confused I would put you in the commuting territory (maybe unfair) which makes sense, its not really a useful feature in those cases. These have been around for a while and in the past few years cheap enough that it becomes a nice upgrade for hobby users. Unless we hit mass extinction there is no way to stop progress. Humanity is going to continue to innovate and create. Sometimes those things are totally unnecessary. We should be looking to the future as a beacon of hope. Not trying to argue that we should not be mindful of our level of consumerism BUT humanity is going to keep innovating and lets look to the future that we will solve problems. Not that we are going to move back to an agrarian lifestyle. These devices most likely have an increase footprint, you now have a small motor and battery compared to a cable but the lifetime of the product I think is on-par or increased. Better shifting means longer chain/chain ring life.

pharmakom 4y ago

Dynamo powered components are an exception. Great interoperability, repairability and product life.

dd82 4y ago

I'm the same way with my bikes, but after renting a bike in Santa Cruz, I definitely noticed a positive difference in shifting promptness with electronic vs cable. Not enough for me to retrofit an existing bike, but enough to use as a criteria point when comparing models. In some ways, its like going to linear brakes after using modulated for so long. Different experience, and I definitely prefer Shimano 4pot calipers over Srams.