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I recently attended an automotive dealership conference where I was being pitched for a product that would let me know if my customers were at rival dealerships

I recently attended an automotive dealership conference where I was being pitched for a product that would let me know if my customers were at rival dealerships. I poked and prodded to understand if these were legitimate claims or just marketing hype. They revealed that they purchased location data from app developers. I was shocked and surprised -- I don't know why I was because this should have been expected. It really enlightened me on the exploitation and misuse of data by crappy apps.

sitkack 4y ago
Not just app data, but you can also purchase celltower data, https://airsage.com/ https://airsage.com/ It is easy to fuse with other sources.
roywiggins 4y ago
This investigation from a couple years ago in the NYT was pretty good: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/12/19/opinion/location-tracking-cell-phone.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/12/19/opinion/locat...
- jonhohle 4y ago
  It’s funny that when the story is about their political allies, that data becomes much less concerning: > “It’s really, really hard to assign even what side of the street you’re on when you’re using this kind of data,” said Paul Schmitt, a research scientist and professor at the University of Southern California. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/29/us/politics/2000-mules-trump-conspiracy-theory.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/29/us/politics/2000-mules-tr...
  - neuronexmachina 4y ago
    Looking at the preceding paragraphs, I'm not sure I understand what point you're trying to make: > Mr. Phillips and Ms. Engelbrecht’s case is largely built on cellphone data. A report created by the group includes an appendix that claims to list “IMEI” numbers of the tracked devices — 15-digit codes unique to each cellphone. But each entry on the list is a 20-character string of numbers and letters followed by a lot of x’s. Mr. Phillips said new IDs had been created “to obfuscate the numbers.” >"The same report says the group “purchased 25 terabytes of cellphone signal data emitted by devices” in the Milwaukee area in a two-week period before the 2020 election. They claim to have isolated 107 unique devices that made “20 or more visits to drop boxes” and “multiple visits to nongovernmental organizations” that were involved in get out the vote efforts. >A number of researchers have said that while cellphone data is fairly precise, it cannot determine if someone is depositing ballots in a drop box or just passing by the area. >“It’s really, really hard to assign even what side of the street you’re on when you’re using this kind of data,” said Paul Schmitt, a research scientist and professor at the University of Southern California.
    - jonhohle 4y ago
      The parent posted a NYT article about cell phone data being used to inferring an individual activity based on their location. Recently, the NYT is implying that the data isn’t really all that accurate and can’t be used to infer an individuals activity.
      - roywiggins 4y ago
        The data is probably just phone self-reported GPS coordinates, and we know how accurate or inaccurate those can be: https://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/performance/accuracy/#how-accurate https://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/performance/accuracy/#how-ac... Both are articles are perfectly consistent with being able to locate a person to within at best a 16 feet radius or so, and less accurate when in a built-up area. Hence the quote about not being able to reliably tell which side of the road someone's phone pinged on.
        jonhohle 4y ago
        It’s also the same data used by police to identify devices (and by extension their owners) that were near the scene of a crime. Phones don’t use “just” GPS for calculating position. My point is one article uses the information to (rightfully) strike fear/discomfort in the reader. The other article uses it to dismiss an investigation that is inconsistent with the paper’s narrative.
kayodelycaon 4y ago
The amount of data available in the automotive world is incredible. License plates connect VINs with everyone who owned the car. Driver's licenses can be inferred if not directly connected. History of fines tied to person or vehicle. Dealerships and insurance have records tied to the VIN. Who financed loans for how much... It just doesn't stop.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  All these advertisers get to do all sorts of creepy stuff and yet I, a normal person, can't go from plate to name. I just wanna offer to buy cool old shitboxes I see driving around.
  - yial 4y ago
    I think you can actually. In Pennsylvania for example, https://pennsylvania.staterecords.org/licenseplate https://pennsylvania.staterecords.org/licenseplate There’s a form to fill out. Looking at the instructions it’s E or F, so in theory if you can fulfill one of the reasons in F, I suppose you don’t need the owners information. Outside of the US, you can also request similar information - Ontario for example. http://www.ontario.ca/page/uncertified-vehicle-record http://www.ontario.ca/page/uncertified-vehicle-record
    - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
      There's a federal law that restricts the info to a list of specific purposes (basically that list) and states are slowly updating their processing accordingly so you generally have to lie on the forms. Different states go to different lengths to do their due diligence.
    - nucleardog 4y ago
      The link for Ontario specifically says: > Vehicle records ordered online do not contain information about current odometer readings, collision information, driver’s licence numbers, owner names or personal address information. It says it contains: Vehicle description Plate number of current plate attached to the specified vehicle and all other previously attached plates Date(s) the vehicle was registered to each registrant Vehicle status So, not really equivalent or what the parent comment was looking for.
hnburnsy 4y ago
Interesting...what's the end game, play hard ball if they are not rival shopping or give in if they are?
- dylan604 4y ago
  Everything in auto sales is a game. The more information on you they have, the more they can "persuade" you to buy at numbers more favorable to them. They look at the status of your car. If it's clean, they think you're more serious to buy and might not have to negotiate as low. If doesn't look like you've made the effort to clean it out before getting rid of it, they might think you're just shopping. If they know you're looking at other dealers, then yes, they might think they need to play harder. If they know you're looking at accessories for this new car, then they can think you're more ready to buy. Every bit of detail they can get, they will use.
  - hnburnsy 4y ago
    Seems like rival shopping is on the margin and recouping the location service tracking costs feels unlikely or at least untraceable in terms of tying it back to an ROI.
Yhippa 4y ago
Someone more informed might know this better than me: are all mobile apps constantly collecting as much data on you as they can and reselling it? I had this realization sometime during COVID (I know, I'm late to the party). I assume any free (as in beer) app is doing this and possibly even paid apps.
- lisper 4y ago
  Yes. Of course. Did you really think people develop these apps as philanthropic endeavors?
  - aftbit 4y ago
    <s>Right, just like the Linux kernel and OpenSSL.</s> Just because something is free doesn't _automatically_ mean you are the product. That said, I agree in this case - lots of free scammy apps are free because they make more money that way than selling the app.
    - minsc_and_boo 4y ago
      Sure, but these free mobile apps typically are not open sourced projects. Even so, a not-insignificant number of OS software is also a business strategy to buy B2B consulting services.
    - lisper 4y ago
      Linux and OpenSSL are not driven by philanthropy either. They are driven by technical passion. Weather apps not so much.
    - sh4rks 4y ago
      You're confusing free with free
- Terry_Roll 4y ago
  Not all mobile apps, but your mobile phone is your own personal surveillance device. So when mobiles first came out they didnt have any background noise cancelling algo's so if someone's phone "accidentally" called the last person whilst it was in their pocket, you could listen into everything they were discussing and identify the other people they were talking to. The Edward Snowden leaks, showed the phone's can be remotely activated if switched off, a bit like the Intel Management Engine is for PC's, so to defeat that you need a phone you can take the battery out of. If you want to analyse it in greater detail, do a replay attack on the transmission from your phone, like you can with wifi and then pick apart the data that is being transmitted. You might have to write your own software and get a suitable SDR dongle to listen in to a smart phone, but its doable. About a decade ago, you could get apps for android which allowed your phone to override the cell traffic management, in other words you could make you phone use a particular cell mast when there was a choice, as this can also be used for triangulation purposes, it offered a level of privacy by ignoring the other masts so triangulation couldnt take place. The smart thing to do is roll your own OS for your devices, you can even use wifi to identify whether someone is carrying a gun or knife on their person because different alloys react differently to RF signals like wifi, so you could have one of the new Garmin Fenix 7 Super Sapphire's with your own OS working with a smart phone on you that is also running your own OS scanning for metals. Anybody doing a concealed carry near you gets found out. Hacking firmware like the OnePlus 8 Camera which see's through plastic also removes privacy for people, because nylon is plastic and plastics are being used more and more in clothes, like winter Fleece jackets. https://twitter.com/MaxWinebach/status/1260564386546094081 https://twitter.com/MaxWinebach/status/1260564386546094081 https://twitter.com/BenGeskin/status/1260607594395250690 https://twitter.com/BenGeskin/status/1260607594395250690 Science is stealing everyone's privacy and I stopped carrying a mobile years ago!
Cd00d 4y ago
My team used to buy location data that we packaged up into reports for equities investors - the premise being the more foot-traffic your brand had, the more revenue you're likely to have. Tons of apps sell this info. I think a lot of the 3rd party weather apps have been the traditional worst offenders because everyone wants to know the weather where they actually are in the moment.
- kennywinker 4y ago
  I know the "best" way to stop this kind of privacy violation is good consumer protection and privacy laws, but I wonder if we couldn't also regulate the downstream market. I.e. make the sale and resale of personal data, as Cd00d is describing, illegal. It seems pretty proven that the humans doing that buying and selling aren't going to stop doing it out of civic responsibility or moral disgust
  - amluto 4y ago
    I think the best way is to attack the market from all sides. - GDPR-like legislation to try to prevent the inappropriate collection of this information. - Ban the sale of or trafficking in illegally collected personal information. Apply serious monetary penalties to anyone who sells such information improperly. Additionally, anyone who sells such information and subsequently learns that it was improperly collected or was GDPR-deleted must tell their buyers, who must then delete it. - Buyers are liable if sellers are found to have violated the rules and don’t pay. They are also liable if they fail to honor delete requests. Buyers who consider this liability unacceptable may attempt to purchase or require insurance.
    - jonhohle 4y ago
      > Ban the sale of or trafficking in illegally collected personal information. In the US isn’t the sale of illegally acquired data already illegal under 18 U.S. Code § 2315? I wonder if any existing stalking laws would cover existing data collection practices. Most people are upset when they learn there are records of their location down to a meter or so wherever they go that are sold to anyone who wants it. Does that meet the bar of “emotional distress”?
paulmd 4y ago
Is there a simple way to buy this information for yourself? I've always been curious what information is out there on me.
- soared 4y ago
  This info is anonymized and barring extreme measures you can’t be identified individually in a data set. It’s sold with very specific usage rights, and for advertising uses a cpm (cost per thousand) fee. You can’t ever buy the data set, but just the ability to target users who exist in it. For example Visa has an exclusive deal with oracle. So only oracle can buy audiences with visa data, and visa has super strict requirements and only builds them in house. If you say “I want users who purchased x product” the size must be 5mm users minimum (I think) and visa models it up using lookalikes/etc to 20mm+ users (maybe slightly off on sizes). Then it’s like $4 cpm to use at a dsp. Brands/agencies etc have to go through oracle to get visa data.
  - chevman 4y ago
    Um, you can buy this data and get access to the raw, individual records no problem. Here's one example - http://www.dev.kbmg.com/services-solutions/data/data-solutions/data-assets/amerilink-consumer-database/ http://www.dev.kbmg.com/services-solutions/data/data-solutio... I've seen this, and many other similar data sets. You can easily look up yourself, your friends, etc.
    - soared 4y ago
      You’re misunderstanding that page, you 100% cannot buy raw data and get individual records that contain personally identifiable information.
      - chevman 4y ago
        Im not sure how much more clear I can be. The example I linked, Amerilink data set, I have a copy of (via my company), sitting on our internal corp NAS drive, and it is 100% raw data with PII. Can query on name, mailing address, DOB, etc. We have an unrestricted license that we pay a good chunk for annually. 1,000+ attributes on every US consumer.
asddubs 4y ago
that's hilarious. what would a dealership even do with that information, seethe? call them out?
fsckboy 4y ago
this is very old info, but back in the 80's, finding a solid lead--a person who was in the market to buy a car--was worth around $150 of marketing money Tim Horton's sells donuts, so I doubt comprehensive data about where you are wrt donut shops all year comes close to that value even 35 yrs later
karaterobot 4y ago
When I was a consultant, I sat in on a lot of meetings at startups who were getting near the end of their runway. So many of them talked a good game about privacy, but when they couldn't find enough revenue, they at least talked about selling user data. The main argument against it was not that it was unethical, or that they'd told users they wouldn't do it, it was that they didn't have enough users to make it worthwhile. Since then, I just do not trust any company not to keep, process, and sell my data, no matter what their nominal values or privacy policy says.
- andrei_says_ 4y ago
  We need laws that makes possessing such data a liability for companies. It's the only way to make them handle it with care and reduce misuse. Should feel radioactive to them.
- moneywoes 4y ago
  How did you get in the line of this consulting work? Sounds interesting
  - karaterobot 4y ago
    This was just ordinary software consulting; meetings on site with our clients. I often I met with their lead product people, though sometimes the founders, since the companies were small. After a while, especially if you are working from their office, people don't hide things. I'm not sure they cared, either.
    - moneywoes 4y ago
      May I ask how you got your first client?
belter 4y ago
I might want you to believe that. Make me a discount, or else I will buy the car from your competitor...
iinnPP 4y ago
This was my company by the sounds of it. This product has failed because the location data just isn't all that reliable. Also, when digging, the data is heavily skewed in favor of low income. This was instantly noticed by the difference in data available for budget brands and models compared to the pricier lots.
- aaaaaaaaata 4y ago
  Thanks for sharing. Also, gross.
mark-r 4y ago
This is why I refuse to install apps on my phone. The companies will push and prod you to install their app, but it isn't worth it. I could have had a free hamburger from Burger King recently, but you had to order it through their app - my privacy is worth more than a burger.

sitkack 4y ago

Not just app data, but you can also purchase celltower data, https://airsage.com/ https://airsage.com/ It is easy to fuse with other sources.

roywiggins 4y ago

This investigation from a couple years ago in the NYT was pretty good: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/12/19/opinion/location-tracking-cell-phone.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/12/19/opinion/locat...

jonhohle 4y ago
It’s funny that when the story is about their political allies, that data becomes much less concerning: > “It’s really, really hard to assign even what side of the street you’re on when you’re using this kind of data,” said Paul Schmitt, a research scientist and professor at the University of Southern California. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/29/us/politics/2000-mules-trump-conspiracy-theory.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/29/us/politics/2000-mules-tr...
- neuronexmachina 4y ago
  Looking at the preceding paragraphs, I'm not sure I understand what point you're trying to make: > Mr. Phillips and Ms. Engelbrecht’s case is largely built on cellphone data. A report created by the group includes an appendix that claims to list “IMEI” numbers of the tracked devices — 15-digit codes unique to each cellphone. But each entry on the list is a 20-character string of numbers and letters followed by a lot of x’s. Mr. Phillips said new IDs had been created “to obfuscate the numbers.” >"The same report says the group “purchased 25 terabytes of cellphone signal data emitted by devices” in the Milwaukee area in a two-week period before the 2020 election. They claim to have isolated 107 unique devices that made “20 or more visits to drop boxes” and “multiple visits to nongovernmental organizations” that were involved in get out the vote efforts. >A number of researchers have said that while cellphone data is fairly precise, it cannot determine if someone is depositing ballots in a drop box or just passing by the area. >“It’s really, really hard to assign even what side of the street you’re on when you’re using this kind of data,” said Paul Schmitt, a research scientist and professor at the University of Southern California.
  - jonhohle 4y ago
    The parent posted a NYT article about cell phone data being used to inferring an individual activity based on their location. Recently, the NYT is implying that the data isn’t really all that accurate and can’t be used to infer an individuals activity.
    - roywiggins 4y ago
      The data is probably just phone self-reported GPS coordinates, and we know how accurate or inaccurate those can be: https://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/performance/accuracy/#how-accurate https://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/performance/accuracy/#how-ac... Both are articles are perfectly consistent with being able to locate a person to within at best a 16 feet radius or so, and less accurate when in a built-up area. Hence the quote about not being able to reliably tell which side of the road someone's phone pinged on.
      - jonhohle 4y ago
        It’s also the same data used by police to identify devices (and by extension their owners) that were near the scene of a crime. Phones don’t use “just” GPS for calculating position. My point is one article uses the information to (rightfully) strike fear/discomfort in the reader. The other article uses it to dismiss an investigation that is inconsistent with the paper’s narrative.

kayodelycaon 4y ago

The amount of data available in the automotive world is incredible. License plates connect VINs with everyone who owned the car. Driver's licenses can be inferred if not directly connected. History of fines tied to person or vehicle. Dealerships and insurance have records tied to the VIN. Who financed loans for how much... It just doesn't stop.

throwaway0a5e 4y ago
All these advertisers get to do all sorts of creepy stuff and yet I, a normal person, can't go from plate to name. I just wanna offer to buy cool old shitboxes I see driving around.
- yial 4y ago
  I think you can actually. In Pennsylvania for example, https://pennsylvania.staterecords.org/licenseplate https://pennsylvania.staterecords.org/licenseplate There’s a form to fill out. Looking at the instructions it’s E or F, so in theory if you can fulfill one of the reasons in F, I suppose you don’t need the owners information. Outside of the US, you can also request similar information - Ontario for example. http://www.ontario.ca/page/uncertified-vehicle-record http://www.ontario.ca/page/uncertified-vehicle-record
  - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
    There's a federal law that restricts the info to a list of specific purposes (basically that list) and states are slowly updating their processing accordingly so you generally have to lie on the forms. Different states go to different lengths to do their due diligence.
  - nucleardog 4y ago
    The link for Ontario specifically says: > Vehicle records ordered online do not contain information about current odometer readings, collision information, driver’s licence numbers, owner names or personal address information. It says it contains: Vehicle description Plate number of current plate attached to the specified vehicle and all other previously attached plates Date(s) the vehicle was registered to each registrant Vehicle status So, not really equivalent or what the parent comment was looking for.

hnburnsy 4y ago

Interesting...what's the end game, play hard ball if they are not rival shopping or give in if they are?

dylan604 4y ago
Everything in auto sales is a game. The more information on you they have, the more they can "persuade" you to buy at numbers more favorable to them. They look at the status of your car. If it's clean, they think you're more serious to buy and might not have to negotiate as low. If doesn't look like you've made the effort to clean it out before getting rid of it, they might think you're just shopping. If they know you're looking at other dealers, then yes, they might think they need to play harder. If they know you're looking at accessories for this new car, then they can think you're more ready to buy. Every bit of detail they can get, they will use.
- hnburnsy 4y ago
  Seems like rival shopping is on the margin and recouping the location service tracking costs feels unlikely or at least untraceable in terms of tying it back to an ROI.

Yhippa 4y ago

Someone more informed might know this better than me: are all mobile apps constantly collecting as much data on you as they can and reselling it? I had this realization sometime during COVID (I know, I'm late to the party). I assume any free (as in beer) app is doing this and possibly even paid apps.

lisper 4y ago
Yes. Of course. Did you really think people develop these apps as philanthropic endeavors?
- aftbit 4y ago
  <s>Right, just like the Linux kernel and OpenSSL.</s> Just because something is free doesn't _automatically_ mean you are the product. That said, I agree in this case - lots of free scammy apps are free because they make more money that way than selling the app.
  - minsc_and_boo 4y ago
    Sure, but these free mobile apps typically are not open sourced projects. Even so, a not-insignificant number of OS software is also a business strategy to buy B2B consulting services.
  - lisper 4y ago
    Linux and OpenSSL are not driven by philanthropy either. They are driven by technical passion. Weather apps not so much.
  - sh4rks 4y ago
    You're confusing free with free
Terry_Roll 4y ago
Not all mobile apps, but your mobile phone is your own personal surveillance device. So when mobiles first came out they didnt have any background noise cancelling algo's so if someone's phone "accidentally" called the last person whilst it was in their pocket, you could listen into everything they were discussing and identify the other people they were talking to. The Edward Snowden leaks, showed the phone's can be remotely activated if switched off, a bit like the Intel Management Engine is for PC's, so to defeat that you need a phone you can take the battery out of. If you want to analyse it in greater detail, do a replay attack on the transmission from your phone, like you can with wifi and then pick apart the data that is being transmitted. You might have to write your own software and get a suitable SDR dongle to listen in to a smart phone, but its doable. About a decade ago, you could get apps for android which allowed your phone to override the cell traffic management, in other words you could make you phone use a particular cell mast when there was a choice, as this can also be used for triangulation purposes, it offered a level of privacy by ignoring the other masts so triangulation couldnt take place. The smart thing to do is roll your own OS for your devices, you can even use wifi to identify whether someone is carrying a gun or knife on their person because different alloys react differently to RF signals like wifi, so you could have one of the new Garmin Fenix 7 Super Sapphire's with your own OS working with a smart phone on you that is also running your own OS scanning for metals. Anybody doing a concealed carry near you gets found out. Hacking firmware like the OnePlus 8 Camera which see's through plastic also removes privacy for people, because nylon is plastic and plastics are being used more and more in clothes, like winter Fleece jackets. https://twitter.com/MaxWinebach/status/1260564386546094081 https://twitter.com/MaxWinebach/status/1260564386546094081 https://twitter.com/BenGeskin/status/1260607594395250690 https://twitter.com/BenGeskin/status/1260607594395250690 Science is stealing everyone's privacy and I stopped carrying a mobile years ago!

Cd00d 4y ago

My team used to buy location data that we packaged up into reports for equities investors - the premise being the more foot-traffic your brand had, the more revenue you're likely to have. Tons of apps sell this info. I think a lot of the 3rd party weather apps have been the traditional worst offenders because everyone wants to know the weather where they actually are in the moment.

kennywinker 4y ago
I know the "best" way to stop this kind of privacy violation is good consumer protection and privacy laws, but I wonder if we couldn't also regulate the downstream market. I.e. make the sale and resale of personal data, as Cd00d is describing, illegal. It seems pretty proven that the humans doing that buying and selling aren't going to stop doing it out of civic responsibility or moral disgust
- amluto 4y ago
  I think the best way is to attack the market from all sides. - GDPR-like legislation to try to prevent the inappropriate collection of this information. - Ban the sale of or trafficking in illegally collected personal information. Apply serious monetary penalties to anyone who sells such information improperly. Additionally, anyone who sells such information and subsequently learns that it was improperly collected or was GDPR-deleted must tell their buyers, who must then delete it. - Buyers are liable if sellers are found to have violated the rules and don’t pay. They are also liable if they fail to honor delete requests. Buyers who consider this liability unacceptable may attempt to purchase or require insurance.
  - jonhohle 4y ago
    > Ban the sale of or trafficking in illegally collected personal information. In the US isn’t the sale of illegally acquired data already illegal under 18 U.S. Code § 2315? I wonder if any existing stalking laws would cover existing data collection practices. Most people are upset when they learn there are records of their location down to a meter or so wherever they go that are sold to anyone who wants it. Does that meet the bar of “emotional distress”?

paulmd 4y ago

Is there a simple way to buy this information for yourself? I've always been curious what information is out there on me.

soared 4y ago
This info is anonymized and barring extreme measures you can’t be identified individually in a data set. It’s sold with very specific usage rights, and for advertising uses a cpm (cost per thousand) fee. You can’t ever buy the data set, but just the ability to target users who exist in it. For example Visa has an exclusive deal with oracle. So only oracle can buy audiences with visa data, and visa has super strict requirements and only builds them in house. If you say “I want users who purchased x product” the size must be 5mm users minimum (I think) and visa models it up using lookalikes/etc to 20mm+ users (maybe slightly off on sizes). Then it’s like $4 cpm to use at a dsp. Brands/agencies etc have to go through oracle to get visa data.
- chevman 4y ago
  Um, you can buy this data and get access to the raw, individual records no problem. Here's one example - http://www.dev.kbmg.com/services-solutions/data/data-solutions/data-assets/amerilink-consumer-database/ http://www.dev.kbmg.com/services-solutions/data/data-solutio... I've seen this, and many other similar data sets. You can easily look up yourself, your friends, etc.
  - soared 4y ago
    You’re misunderstanding that page, you 100% cannot buy raw data and get individual records that contain personally identifiable information.
    - chevman 4y ago
      Im not sure how much more clear I can be. The example I linked, Amerilink data set, I have a copy of (via my company), sitting on our internal corp NAS drive, and it is 100% raw data with PII. Can query on name, mailing address, DOB, etc. We have an unrestricted license that we pay a good chunk for annually. 1,000+ attributes on every US consumer.

asddubs 4y ago

that's hilarious. what would a dealership even do with that information, seethe? call them out?

fsckboy 4y ago

this is very old info, but back in the 80's, finding a solid lead--a person who was in the market to buy a car--was worth around $150 of marketing money Tim Horton's sells donuts, so I doubt comprehensive data about where you are wrt donut shops all year comes close to that value even 35 yrs later

karaterobot 4y ago

When I was a consultant, I sat in on a lot of meetings at startups who were getting near the end of their runway. So many of them talked a good game about privacy, but when they couldn't find enough revenue, they at least talked about selling user data. The main argument against it was not that it was unethical, or that they'd told users they wouldn't do it, it was that they didn't have enough users to make it worthwhile. Since then, I just do not trust any company not to keep, process, and sell my data, no matter what their nominal values or privacy policy says.

andrei_says_ 4y ago
We need laws that makes possessing such data a liability for companies. It's the only way to make them handle it with care and reduce misuse. Should feel radioactive to them.
moneywoes 4y ago
How did you get in the line of this consulting work? Sounds interesting
- karaterobot 4y ago
  This was just ordinary software consulting; meetings on site with our clients. I often I met with their lead product people, though sometimes the founders, since the companies were small. After a while, especially if you are working from their office, people don't hide things. I'm not sure they cared, either.
  - moneywoes 4y ago
    May I ask how you got your first client?

belter 4y ago

I might want you to believe that. Make me a discount, or else I will buy the car from your competitor...

iinnPP 4y ago

This was my company by the sounds of it. This product has failed because the location data just isn't all that reliable. Also, when digging, the data is heavily skewed in favor of low income. This was instantly noticed by the difference in data available for budget brands and models compared to the pricier lots.

aaaaaaaaata 4y ago
Thanks for sharing. Also, gross.

mark-r 4y ago

This is why I refuse to install apps on my phone. The companies will push and prod you to install their app, but it isn't worth it. I could have had a free hamburger from Burger King recently, but you had to order it through their app - my privacy is worth more than a burger.