19 ms·

A bit off topic, but are there any electric cars that are lighter on software? e.g. some or all of a physical key, no touch screens, no over-the-air updates, et

A bit off topic, but are there any electric cars that are lighter on software? e.g. some or all of a physical key, no touch screens, no over-the-air updates, etc? Something for people who sympathise with [0] > Tech enthusiasts: My entire house is smart. > Tech workers: The only piece of technology in my house is a printer and I keep a gun next to it so I can shoot it if it makes a noise I don't recognize [0] https://twitter.com/ppathole/status/1116670170980859905?lang=en https://twitter.com/ppathole/status/1116670170980859905?lang...

bjt2n3904 4y ago
I'm really hoping that the semiconductor shortage forces auto manufacturers to go this route.
- gtirloni 4y ago
  The shortage is almost over, it's back to business as usual.
  - unixhero 4y ago
    Any sources on this? I'd like to sleep better at night.
  - Denvercoder9 4y ago
    No. Plenty of parts that were previously available without lead time are now quoted for 2024.
    - gtirloni 4y ago
      And many are not.
      - Denvercoder9 4y ago
        Of course (it's a shortage, not a complete inavailability), but that there are much more components with long lead times than before makes it decidedly not business as usual.
vincnetas 4y ago
Volkswagen e-up! No touch screen, only key ignition, no OTA. Spartan electric city car.
- k8sToGo 4y ago
  But discontinued
  - aiiotnoodle 4y ago
    It was temporarily halted in 2020 but now is back in production. According to here anyway, https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/vw-plans-restart-sales-e-electric-minicar-demand-surges-affordable-evs https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/vw-plans-restart-sale...
- punchclockhero 4y ago
  The Skoda version (Citigo-e iV) is even more austere. Manual mirrors and rear windows with a lever like the little triangular windows of old. My guess is that the corners were cut to fit the lane assist system and keep the low price.
  - iso1210 4y ago
    I hate lane assist, fails miserably where I live (country lanes). I believe its a requirement now, which is tedious. Its the first assistance feature I've actively disliked.
- drcongo 4y ago
  Very popular in Yorkshire.
- JeremyNT 4y ago
  Wow, I'd kill to get one of these in the states! VW only offers the ID.4 here, which is a ridiculously huge car.
bambax 4y ago
Not a car, but if you make an e-bike from a regular bike and a motor bought on aliexpress, you got yourself a simple electric vehicle that is 1/ extremely light on software and 2/ not controlled by a centralized corporation which will expose your whereabouts to the whole world in case of problems.
- mschuster91 4y ago
  and 3) a massive fire risk. Even actual brand name e-bikes regularly catch on fire, to a point where fire departments warn against them [1]. I would not even dare to build myself an e-bike from Aliexpress components - you have no idea at all how solid the battery protection systems are, how well-made the cells are or if they are outright forgeries, or how well the cells are matched to the battery protection system. [1] https://www.consumerreports.org/electric-bikes/how-to-prevent-e-bike-fires-a2493889574/ https://www.consumerreports.org/electric-bikes/how-to-preven...
  - lm28469 4y ago
    and 4) illegal in most countries
    - namibj 4y ago
      Not in Germany, so I'm confused what you're playing at.
      - lm28469 4y ago
        Does it go faster than 25kph ? Does the motor work if you're not actively pedaling ? Does it make more than 250w ? If you answered yes to any of these you need a valid driver's license, an insurance, a plate and mandatory helmet.
        ClumsyPilot 4y ago
        In london 90% of all deloveroo/uber eats is delivered with an illegal ebike, nobody cares.
camillomiller 4y ago
Good luck. Car manufacturers are dying to become service providers and shift buying revenue into recurring revenue. On top of that, a car that's mostly like a smartphone in terms of how you activate and think about its features is incredibly attractive for the carmakers. They dream to be able to set car prices based on unlock-able features, basically what Apple has achieved with M1 on Macs (with the difference that in this case it makes a lot of sense from a user perspective too). You can't provide services or set prices this way if the car isn't "smart". If you wanna know more, check what Qualcomm's doing in automotive with the Snapdragon digital chassis concept.
- oblio 4y ago
  > They dream to be able to set car prices based on unlock-able features, basically what Apple has achieved with M1 on Macs. This is not an Apple thing... For ages CPUs and I think GPUs, too, are basically the same thing between many different models. Then more expensive versions just get more cores unlocked, higher frequency allowed, etc.
  - Otek 4y ago
    Wait… which manufacturers do you have in mind? Because I don’t think this apply to Intel or AMD or NVidia?
    - SigmundA 4y ago
      https://spacehop.com/what-is-binning/ https://spacehop.com/what-is-binning/
      - gruturo 4y ago
        This is an enormous stretch. Binning mostly allows manufacturers to avoid having to throw away ICs with certain defects, selling them instead as a different SKU (fewer cores, lower clock, worse power consumption etc). I think Intel abused this at least once, back in the days when they had ridiculously good yields across the board, but let's not generalize in absence of evidence.
kimburgess 4y ago
Bollinger looked like they were targeting exactly this, but just checked and sadly looks like they have shifted to commercial platforms only (https://bollingermotors.com/looking-for-b1-b2/ https://bollingermotors.com/looking-for-b1-b2/).
patentatt 4y ago
I wouldn't say it's 'light on software' in an absolute sense, but the Kia Niro EV/PHEV has an 'average' amount of gadget and doodad bs compared to a full 'Tesla' amount. About the same as any other new car. I was recently looking for an EV that wasn't a Tesla and was actually available to purchase in the first half of 2022 and it was literally the only one I could find.
darau1 4y ago
I'm no expert, but I think your best bet might be electrifying something old enough to not already have any of these problems.
givinguflac 4y ago
I used to have an electric Smart Car and it didn’t have any of those things. It was a lot of fun but not a vehicle for everyone admittedly.
imglorp 4y ago
Under the cover, modern vehicles have been migrating to CAN Bus etc anyway, so when everything from door switches to marker lights are just i/o devices. There's less wiring, almost no fusebox, and the computers know more about what's wrong. The only difference in UX is going to be what's on a touch menu and what's on a hard control.
- Aachen 4y ago
  I don't know much about the space so let me know if I'm wrong, but from my point of view there's still a world of difference between all devices working on a packet network (that's simply efficient) and having ten cameras filming surveilling everyone around me continuously and executable code being pushed to my vehicle over an always-on connection that I have no control over. And then on top of all that is tactile controls so you don't need to avert your eyes or pause podcasts to adjust the windscreen wipers.
  - piaste 4y ago
    > an always-on connection that I have no control over Has anybody tried disabling the LTE antenna (or whatever it uses) on a Tesla for privacy/security reasons? I'm sure hoping the car still drives fine without it, but can it be done without utterly voiding the warranty etc.?
    - Aachen 4y ago
      I'm sure you can come to a safe stop, and there have to be provisions for when not in mobile range because that does happen on occasion, but long term I wonder what it does for warranty or various features that might have (known or even unknown to tesla) dependencies on being online. I also seem to remember reading about a time lock, i.e. needing to be online every x time, but not sure.
- PinguTS 4y ago
  Its not that "modern" vehicles migrate to CAN. CAN was introduced in 1990 with the Mercedes S class. Since then everybody adopted CAN. At least with OBD-II, which is mandatory in many countries around the world, every car has CAN these days. Since about 2000 modern cars have integrated further technologies beginning with LIN to replace simple IO wires in the doors and alike. At the higher end side we hade Byteflight, Flexray, TTP/C and now Automotive Ethernet based on BroadReach.
tarsinge 4y ago
Dacia Spring is relatively low-tech
LightG 4y ago
Doubtful ... you may as well get a classic or just plain old car and convert it to an EV.
tiew9Vii 4y ago
The electric conversion kits are starting to look appealing and will probably be the only way to go for a electric drivers car without the bloatware.
- signaturefish 4y ago
  I really want to see more electric conversion kits for existing cars, I must admit. It seems like such a waste to throw away what is in many cases a perfectly good chassis/geartrain/body/etc just because you want to change the ICE engine and fuel tank for an electric motor and a battery pack.
benhurmarcel 4y ago
Most EVs outside of Tesla are kind of like that. Physical key, no over-the-air update, etc. Granted, they have a touchscreen, but it's just to control the navigation if you use it.
punchclockhero 4y ago
Highly unlikely to find a new one as EuroNCAP and company have started to dock stars for missing active safety features (AEB, lane assist,sleepiness detection, etc.) and low stars are a sales killer. Soon they may even be required by law.
- pornel 4y ago
  Renault Zoe is relatively low-tech, and it has failed EuroNCAP.
bamboozled 4y ago
It’s all I want. I want my car now, with an electric motor, that’s all.
remuskaos 4y ago
I've rented a VW E-Up once that was pretty low tech despite being fully electric. Physical key that has to be inserted next to the steering wheel to start the car (but can lock/unlock the doors like a normal fob), classic car radio without touch screen, minimalist dashboard buttons. To start the car, you even have to turn the key farther just like you would on a classical ignition. I think it's designed for people who are used to combustion engines. According to the dashboard, it's range should be about 500km. It is quite small however.
djxfade 4y ago
The first few generations of the MG ZS EV was basically just a "dumb" car, but electric. It was replace with a new model in 2022, which has some more smarts. The car I have has all analog gauges etc. It does have a touch screen, but only for controlling the infotainment system. No OTA.
dav_Oz 4y ago
It reads like a telephone (gone through India?) mod of that version I am more familiar with: >Tech Enthusiasts: Everything in my house is wired to the Internet of Things! I control it all from my smartphone! My smart-house is bluetooth enabled and I can give it voice commands via alexa! I love the future! Programmers/Engineers: The most recent piece of technology I own is a printer from 2004 and I keep a loaded gun ready to shoot it if it ever makes an unexpected noise.[0] [Security technicians: (takes a deep swig of whiskey) I wish I had been born in the Neolithic.] [0]https://biggaybunny.tumblr.com/post/166787080920/tech-enthusiasts-everything-in-my-house-is-wired https://biggaybunny.tumblr.com/post/166787080920/tech-enthus...
- hef19898 4y ago
  A big hammer, in case guns are hard to come by or you don't trust chemistry and complex mechanics.
  - wollsmoth 4y ago
    people, you can just unplug it!
    - glenneroo 4y ago
      that's assuming the rat's nest of cables even permits access.
      - wollsmoth 4y ago
        Some say there's a plug in the back of printers you can yank out too. I wouldn't know since I just refuse to own one at this point.
        hef19898 4y ago
        Isolated scissors then?
- ravenstine 4y ago
godmode2019 4y ago
I'm converting a 1970 jaguar to Tesla power. All modern cars have far too much tech in them. I don't know how people are happy having sim cards installed in their cars tracking their every movement. Tesla is even worse it has a camera inside the car collecting data..
- MiddleEndian 4y ago
  >I'm converting a 1970 jaguar to Tesla power. Out of curiosity, do you plan to document this process online? Either while you're doing it or afterwards?
  - LightG 4y ago
    Yup, I'd be curious too! Jaguar is in an interesting choice of conversion too. Which model?
    - godmode2019 4y ago
      XJ6 series 1 https://live.staticflickr.com/6040/6282846492_2b9f48fdbd_b.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/6040/6282846492_2b9f48fdbd_b.j...
oldsecondhand 4y ago
The Dacia Spring is like that, but it's also a but weak has a bit engine, but its also dirt cheap.
snarfy 4y ago
I basically want one of these, full scale that I can drive - [0] [0] - https://www.associatedelectrics.com/teamassociated/cars_and_trucks/ https://www.associatedelectrics.com/teamassociated/cars_and_...
rightbyte 4y ago
Renault Twizy. However is not a full size or speed car.
1234letshaveatw 4y ago
I really like my Bolt. Has a touchscreen (and carplay/auto) but it is a pretty no-frills kind of vehicle, esp. with a lower trim level
_yb2s 4y ago
VW e-golf... you can find them for ~10k used and they are just a regular basic (but high quality) car that happens to have an electric drivetrain. The downside is they have slightly less range than newer EVs. I leased one and was really impressed overall, and wish I had bought out the lease.
DyslexicAtheist 4y ago
wrt > "lighter on software" AND "no OTA" the so called "RED directive" in the EU mandates OTA for any consumer IoT device as of 2024. After that it'll be illegal to sell a connected coffee-maker without also shipping upgrades for any security vulns. While this is specific for IoT the connected vehicle regulation (anything non-consumer or even safety critical) would require even stricter legislation & defenses in place.
longitudinal93 4y ago
BMW i3. No OTA updates. No touchscreen. Very limited telemetry (GPS location transmission can be turned off). Electronic key with a physical key backup.

bjt2n3904 4y ago

I'm really hoping that the semiconductor shortage forces auto manufacturers to go this route.

gtirloni 4y ago
The shortage is almost over, it's back to business as usual.
- unixhero 4y ago
  Any sources on this? I'd like to sleep better at night.
- Denvercoder9 4y ago
  No. Plenty of parts that were previously available without lead time are now quoted for 2024.
  - gtirloni 4y ago
    And many are not.
    - Denvercoder9 4y ago
      Of course (it's a shortage, not a complete inavailability), but that there are much more components with long lead times than before makes it decidedly not business as usual.

vincnetas 4y ago

Volkswagen e-up! No touch screen, only key ignition, no OTA. Spartan electric city car.

k8sToGo 4y ago
But discontinued
- aiiotnoodle 4y ago
  It was temporarily halted in 2020 but now is back in production. According to here anyway, https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/vw-plans-restart-sales-e-electric-minicar-demand-surges-affordable-evs https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/vw-plans-restart-sale...
punchclockhero 4y ago
The Skoda version (Citigo-e iV) is even more austere. Manual mirrors and rear windows with a lever like the little triangular windows of old. My guess is that the corners were cut to fit the lane assist system and keep the low price.
- iso1210 4y ago
  I hate lane assist, fails miserably where I live (country lanes). I believe its a requirement now, which is tedious. Its the first assistance feature I've actively disliked.
drcongo 4y ago
Very popular in Yorkshire.
JeremyNT 4y ago
Wow, I'd kill to get one of these in the states! VW only offers the ID.4 here, which is a ridiculously huge car.

bambax 4y ago

Not a car, but if you make an e-bike from a regular bike and a motor bought on aliexpress, you got yourself a simple electric vehicle that is 1/ extremely light on software and 2/ not controlled by a centralized corporation which will expose your whereabouts to the whole world in case of problems.

mschuster91 4y ago
and 3) a massive fire risk. Even actual brand name e-bikes regularly catch on fire, to a point where fire departments warn against them [1]. I would not even dare to build myself an e-bike from Aliexpress components - you have no idea at all how solid the battery protection systems are, how well-made the cells are or if they are outright forgeries, or how well the cells are matched to the battery protection system. [1] https://www.consumerreports.org/electric-bikes/how-to-prevent-e-bike-fires-a2493889574/ https://www.consumerreports.org/electric-bikes/how-to-preven...
- lm28469 4y ago
  and 4) illegal in most countries
  - namibj 4y ago
    Not in Germany, so I'm confused what you're playing at.
    - lm28469 4y ago
      Does it go faster than 25kph ? Does the motor work if you're not actively pedaling ? Does it make more than 250w ? If you answered yes to any of these you need a valid driver's license, an insurance, a plate and mandatory helmet.
      - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
        In london 90% of all deloveroo/uber eats is delivered with an illegal ebike, nobody cares.

camillomiller 4y ago

Good luck. Car manufacturers are dying to become service providers and shift buying revenue into recurring revenue. On top of that, a car that's mostly like a smartphone in terms of how you activate and think about its features is incredibly attractive for the carmakers. They dream to be able to set car prices based on unlock-able features, basically what Apple has achieved with M1 on Macs (with the difference that in this case it makes a lot of sense from a user perspective too). You can't provide services or set prices this way if the car isn't "smart". If you wanna know more, check what Qualcomm's doing in automotive with the Snapdragon digital chassis concept.

oblio 4y ago
> They dream to be able to set car prices based on unlock-able features, basically what Apple has achieved with M1 on Macs. This is not an Apple thing... For ages CPUs and I think GPUs, too, are basically the same thing between many different models. Then more expensive versions just get more cores unlocked, higher frequency allowed, etc.
- Otek 4y ago
  Wait… which manufacturers do you have in mind? Because I don’t think this apply to Intel or AMD or NVidia?
  - SigmundA 4y ago
    https://spacehop.com/what-is-binning/ https://spacehop.com/what-is-binning/
    - gruturo 4y ago
      This is an enormous stretch. Binning mostly allows manufacturers to avoid having to throw away ICs with certain defects, selling them instead as a different SKU (fewer cores, lower clock, worse power consumption etc). I think Intel abused this at least once, back in the days when they had ridiculously good yields across the board, but let's not generalize in absence of evidence.

kimburgess 4y ago

Bollinger looked like they were targeting exactly this, but just checked and sadly looks like they have shifted to commercial platforms only (https://bollingermotors.com/looking-for-b1-b2/ https://bollingermotors.com/looking-for-b1-b2/).

patentatt 4y ago

I wouldn't say it's 'light on software' in an absolute sense, but the Kia Niro EV/PHEV has an 'average' amount of gadget and doodad bs compared to a full 'Tesla' amount. About the same as any other new car. I was recently looking for an EV that wasn't a Tesla and was actually available to purchase in the first half of 2022 and it was literally the only one I could find.

darau1 4y ago

I'm no expert, but I think your best bet might be electrifying something old enough to not already have any of these problems.

givinguflac 4y ago

I used to have an electric Smart Car and it didn’t have any of those things. It was a lot of fun but not a vehicle for everyone admittedly.

imglorp 4y ago

Under the cover, modern vehicles have been migrating to CAN Bus etc anyway, so when everything from door switches to marker lights are just i/o devices. There's less wiring, almost no fusebox, and the computers know more about what's wrong. The only difference in UX is going to be what's on a touch menu and what's on a hard control.

Aachen 4y ago
I don't know much about the space so let me know if I'm wrong, but from my point of view there's still a world of difference between all devices working on a packet network (that's simply efficient) and having ten cameras filming surveilling everyone around me continuously and executable code being pushed to my vehicle over an always-on connection that I have no control over. And then on top of all that is tactile controls so you don't need to avert your eyes or pause podcasts to adjust the windscreen wipers.
- piaste 4y ago
  > an always-on connection that I have no control over Has anybody tried disabling the LTE antenna (or whatever it uses) on a Tesla for privacy/security reasons? I'm sure hoping the car still drives fine without it, but can it be done without utterly voiding the warranty etc.?
  - Aachen 4y ago
    I'm sure you can come to a safe stop, and there have to be provisions for when not in mobile range because that does happen on occasion, but long term I wonder what it does for warranty or various features that might have (known or even unknown to tesla) dependencies on being online. I also seem to remember reading about a time lock, i.e. needing to be online every x time, but not sure.
PinguTS 4y ago
Its not that "modern" vehicles migrate to CAN. CAN was introduced in 1990 with the Mercedes S class. Since then everybody adopted CAN. At least with OBD-II, which is mandatory in many countries around the world, every car has CAN these days. Since about 2000 modern cars have integrated further technologies beginning with LIN to replace simple IO wires in the doors and alike. At the higher end side we hade Byteflight, Flexray, TTP/C and now Automotive Ethernet based on BroadReach.

tarsinge 4y ago

Dacia Spring is relatively low-tech

LightG 4y ago

Doubtful ... you may as well get a classic or just plain old car and convert it to an EV.

tiew9Vii 4y ago

The electric conversion kits are starting to look appealing and will probably be the only way to go for a electric drivers car without the bloatware.

signaturefish 4y ago
I really want to see more electric conversion kits for existing cars, I must admit. It seems like such a waste to throw away what is in many cases a perfectly good chassis/geartrain/body/etc just because you want to change the ICE engine and fuel tank for an electric motor and a battery pack.

benhurmarcel 4y ago

Most EVs outside of Tesla are kind of like that. Physical key, no over-the-air update, etc. Granted, they have a touchscreen, but it's just to control the navigation if you use it.

punchclockhero 4y ago

Highly unlikely to find a new one as EuroNCAP and company have started to dock stars for missing active safety features (AEB, lane assist,sleepiness detection, etc.) and low stars are a sales killer. Soon they may even be required by law.

pornel 4y ago
Renault Zoe is relatively low-tech, and it has failed EuroNCAP.

bamboozled 4y ago

It’s all I want. I want my car now, with an electric motor, that’s all.

remuskaos 4y ago

I've rented a VW E-Up once that was pretty low tech despite being fully electric. Physical key that has to be inserted next to the steering wheel to start the car (but can lock/unlock the doors like a normal fob), classic car radio without touch screen, minimalist dashboard buttons. To start the car, you even have to turn the key farther just like you would on a classical ignition. I think it's designed for people who are used to combustion engines. According to the dashboard, it's range should be about 500km. It is quite small however.

djxfade 4y ago

The first few generations of the MG ZS EV was basically just a "dumb" car, but electric. It was replace with a new model in 2022, which has some more smarts. The car I have has all analog gauges etc. It does have a touch screen, but only for controlling the infotainment system. No OTA.

dav_Oz 4y ago

It reads like a telephone (gone through India?) mod of that version I am more familiar with: >Tech Enthusiasts: Everything in my house is wired to the Internet of Things! I control it all from my smartphone! My smart-house is bluetooth enabled and I can give it voice commands via alexa! I love the future! Programmers/Engineers: The most recent piece of technology I own is a printer from 2004 and I keep a loaded gun ready to shoot it if it ever makes an unexpected noise.[0] [Security technicians: (takes a deep swig of whiskey) I wish I had been born in the Neolithic.] [0]https://biggaybunny.tumblr.com/post/166787080920/tech-enthusiasts-everything-in-my-house-is-wired https://biggaybunny.tumblr.com/post/166787080920/tech-enthus...

hef19898 4y ago
A big hammer, in case guns are hard to come by or you don't trust chemistry and complex mechanics.
- wollsmoth 4y ago
  people, you can just unplug it!
  - glenneroo 4y ago
    that's assuming the rat's nest of cables even permits access.
    - wollsmoth 4y ago
      Some say there's a plug in the back of printers you can yank out too. I wouldn't know since I just refuse to own one at this point.
      - hef19898 4y ago
        Isolated scissors then?
ravenstine 4y ago

godmode2019 4y ago

I'm converting a 1970 jaguar to Tesla power. All modern cars have far too much tech in them. I don't know how people are happy having sim cards installed in their cars tracking their every movement. Tesla is even worse it has a camera inside the car collecting data..

MiddleEndian 4y ago
>I'm converting a 1970 jaguar to Tesla power. Out of curiosity, do you plan to document this process online? Either while you're doing it or afterwards?
- LightG 4y ago
  Yup, I'd be curious too! Jaguar is in an interesting choice of conversion too. Which model?
  - godmode2019 4y ago
    XJ6 series 1 https://live.staticflickr.com/6040/6282846492_2b9f48fdbd_b.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/6040/6282846492_2b9f48fdbd_b.j...

oldsecondhand 4y ago

The Dacia Spring is like that, but it's also a but weak has a bit engine, but its also dirt cheap.

snarfy 4y ago

I basically want one of these, full scale that I can drive - [0] [0] - https://www.associatedelectrics.com/teamassociated/cars_and_trucks/ https://www.associatedelectrics.com/teamassociated/cars_and_...

rightbyte 4y ago

Renault Twizy. However is not a full size or speed car.

1234letshaveatw 4y ago

I really like my Bolt. Has a touchscreen (and carplay/auto) but it is a pretty no-frills kind of vehicle, esp. with a lower trim level

_yb2s 4y ago

VW e-golf... you can find them for ~10k used and they are just a regular basic (but high quality) car that happens to have an electric drivetrain. The downside is they have slightly less range than newer EVs. I leased one and was really impressed overall, and wish I had bought out the lease.

DyslexicAtheist 4y ago

wrt > "lighter on software" AND "no OTA" the so called "RED directive" in the EU mandates OTA for any consumer IoT device as of 2024. After that it'll be illegal to sell a connected coffee-maker without also shipping upgrades for any security vulns. While this is specific for IoT the connected vehicle regulation (anything non-consumer or even safety critical) would require even stricter legislation & defenses in place.

longitudinal93 4y ago

BMW i3. No OTA updates. No touchscreen. Very limited telemetry (GPS location transmission can be turned off). Electronic key with a physical key backup.