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Why do USB-C hubs still have USB 2.0 ports? (2021)
- amq 4y agoAll I want is simple reliable hub with: - HDMI - 2x USB A - MicroSD
- pnutjam 4y agohttps://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=14908 https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=14908 ETA for new stock shows early June.
- bacan 4y agoCoz like 99% of all USB devices have a USB-A port
- xmprt 4y agoReally short and well explained article about something that a lot of people (including myself) probably had a misconception on. This was great!
- the__alchemist 4y agoRelated: When designing small electronics devices, my go to for plug-in power and simple data transmission (including serial-over-USB) is USB-C. It's small, reversible, and common due to phone chargers... and you can still wire it up and use it easily by just using the D+/- lines, power, and ground. (With appropriate CC resistors etc)
- jmgao 4y agoAnd the best part is that you don't even need a connector, you can just build it right into your PCB! USB-A also lets you do a PCB-only connector, but if you're doing anything that requires a cable instead of just plugging directly into a port, it's a lot more annoying to require a USB-A extension cable than any USB-C cable.
- grrrrrbox 4y agoWhat PCB thickness? Got a footprint?
- jmgao 4y ago0.8mm, https://github.com/jmgao/PCB-USB-C https://github.com/jmgao/PCB-USB-C
- grrrrrbox 4y agoThank you!
- prutschman 4y agoThe Eagle one yours is based on says it needs 0.6 mm PCB to work. Is it just close enough not to matter?
- jmgao 4y agoAnnoyingly, the USB-C midplate is specified at 0.7mm. In my experience, 0.6mm boards are too thin to make a reliable connection. Going thicker has worked perfectly with all of the cables I've tried. I suppose there might be some risk of damaging your cables, but it doesn't seem too likely to me (the spec is 0.7 +/- 0.05), and I haven't had any problems.
- anyfoo 4y agoDo you have an example for such a "USB-C edge connector"? Intuitively I would have said that common PCB thickness is too large, or do I misunderstand what you mean?
- jmgao 4y agoYeah, you need a 0.8mm thick PCB, but everyone can do that now (JLCPCB and oshpark both do it for the same price as a regular 1.6mm board). Here's a footprint: https://github.com/jmgao/PCB-USB-C https://github.com/jmgao/PCB-USB-C
- asciimov 4y ago> common due to phone chargers Thanks to Apple keeping iPhones on lightning connectors the only things with USB-C I have in my house is a Nintendo Switch and a Soldering Iron.
- ace2358 4y agoI don’t understand, my new iPhone 13 came with a usb-c to lightning cable. My new iPad is usb-c too as well as my new kindle and new Sony camera. Even my vape has usb-c! Edit: and my soldering iron!
- asciimov 4y agoOk, so the iPhone 13 does come with a usb-c to lightning, but that cable is completely useless to me as it didn't come with a charger. All my previous iPhones and iPads came with a usb-a chargers. Other than that Switch Charger I've got no other USB-c chargers.
- photojosh 4y agoOlder devices! And some new ones that still have USB-micro. It's quite difficult to buy a USB-C cable that is not USB-C or Lightning on the other end. While USB-A on the charger's side with USB-C on device side is quite common and comes with a lot of devices that don't include a charger. I couldn't find USB-C to USB-micro device cables at any retail store near me. Ended up getting them off Amazon. My transition to all USB-C is also much slower than it could be, since you can't get 6- or 10-port chargers that are all USB-C. iirc best I've seen is 2x USB-C and then 4 USB-A. Use cases: - my embedded dev boards are all USB-micro (sometimes 2x of) and worse, USB-mini or USB-B. setup for dev on the go from my MBP now is a foot-long USB-C to USB-micro. - charging older Kindles, bike lights, etc
- Vladimof 4y ago> my go to for plug-in power and simple data transmission (including serial-over-USB) is USB-C Can you push for USB-O, the round USB connector? /s
- amelius 4y agoCan you recommend an IC and development tools?
- the__alchemist 4y agoI've been using STM32 and nRF-52. For development tools, I've been using Probe-Run to flash, and Defmt to debug.
- jedberg 4y agoRelatedly, why can't I get a simple USB-C hub? I have four USB-C ports on my laptop and I need six. Back in the USB-A days, I'd just get a $30 hub and four new full speed ports at the cost of one on the laptop. But now if I want three more full speed ports, I have to get a four port dock/hub that costs $179 and has to get plugged into the wall. Am I not looking correctly or is there some technical limitation I'm not aware of or ...? Edit: It seems like the consensus is basically "people wouldn't read the specs", which is a fair criticism. USB-C supports so many different types of devices that it would be impossible to make one that supports them all, and if you support a subset people would get mad that their device isn't in that subset.
- rawbot 4y agoUSB 1 and 2 were relatively simple protocols, and had very low energy profile (I think max power on the original USB 2.0 spec is 2.5W (5V, 0.5A) [0]. Same with bandwidth. Back in USB 2.0 days, a single port could consume at most 480 Mbps in bandwidth, so let's say that your typical USB 2.0 hub consumed at most 2Gbps. That's very easy to accomplish in terms of I/O [1] (1 PCIe Gen 1.0 x1 port). Now imagine 4 USB 3.2 or eventually 4.0 full speed ports: that is 20 Gbps per port, and Thunderbolt 3 has 40 Gbps per port. That means a 4-port HUB would need to have I/O capabilities of 80 or 160 Gbps. That is even beyond PCI express 4.0 w/ 4 lanes (8GB/s). A single Thunderbolt 3 port can consume theoretically half as much as the best and fastest NVMe SSDs (around 7 GB/s). Basically, what I am trying to say is that it is getting harder and harder to achieve with USB 3.2 (and eventually 4.0) what was easy to do with USB 2.0. Our computers are just not getting fast enough to support all these I/O speeds. That's why most PCIe extension cards only offer a single USB-C port. A standard PCIe Gen 4.0 1x port cannot even support that at top speed!. Take a look at this card [2]: a single USB port doesn't even support 20Gbps speeds, and half the ports share the same 10Gbps bandwidth. And this card requires a PCIe 3.0 x4 port. And this is just bandwith. In terms of power, it is pretty much the same issue, Power Delivery can consume 100W at most. That's more power than the normal draw of a typical "ultrabook" laptop (around 60-65W). Now imagine 4 of these, 400W. That's a standard desktop PC PSU requirement. tl;dr it is just not possible to support this much I/O speed and power draw with cheap consumer technology. That's why good USB 3.2 and Thunderbolt 3 hubs cost much, much more than USB 2.0 ever did. Also why they are much more complicated devices. [0] https://www.tripplite.com/products/usb-charging https://www.tripplite.com/products/usb-charging [1] https://www.crucial.com/support/articles-faq-ssd/pcie-speeds-limitations https://www.crucial.com/support/articles-faq-ssd/pcie-speeds... [2] https://www.newegg.com/inateck-ku8211-red-pci-express-to-usb-card/p/17Z-00HW-00067 https://www.newegg.com/inateck-ku8211-red-pci-express-to-usb...
- vxNsr 4y agoThis explains soooo much, I had the Dell TB16, and sometimes, under certain conditions the mouse would cause the ethernet connection to reset, or vis versa.
- nowahe 4y agoI have a Caldigit USB-C pro dock with a macbook pro m1 plugged into it, and I have been having random and inconsistent (sometimes once or twice a day, other times nothing for a couple of weeks) sudden devices disconnection. What's weird is that suddenly my keyboard, audio out and ethernet stops working, but my 4k monitor plugged in Display Port keeps working without a hitch. I'm pretty sure it's an issue with the USB controller, and the article convinced me more, but I still have zero clue on how to begin troubleshooting an issue like that.
- jhenkens 4y agoWith every USB-C and/or TB hub/dock that I've ever used (including a Kensington SD5200T), I'd have periodic drop outs of my Plantronics wireless headset's connection. Directly connected to the laptop, never a problem. Most recently, I've been using a Belkin 11-in-1 USB-C dock. I just checked, and I had it plugged into the USB 2.0 port on the dock before I moved it back to directly connected to my laptop. I've just plugged the headset back into one of the 3.0 ports, since this article says external 3.0 ports may not share like this article states. I wonder if every other dock I've used, I've also been plugging into USB 2.0 ports that are sharing 3.0 ports...
- ryukoposting 4y agoWhat an obnoxious dark pattern of a cookie banner.
- unnouinceput 4y agoMay I introduce you to NoScript + uBlock Origin? I had to deactivate them to see what you're talking about. With them active no banner and the article was 100% accessible
- lupire 4y agoCan you introduce NoScript to Firefox on Android?
- cmeacham98 4y agohttps://www.ghacks.net/2020/10/01/you-can-now-install-any-add-on-in-firefox-nightly-for-android-but-it-is-complicated/ https://www.ghacks.net/2020/10/01/you-can-now-install-any-ad...
- einpoklum 4y agoWell, ok, but remember that for the past few years it's only the crippled WebExtensions.
- Vladimof 4y agoOn Mobile, I stayed on Fennec for at least a year to avoid Fenix... Collections are a bit of a pain to setup... but either way, if most extensions still work, why do they disable them by default? We went from thousands of extensions to about 10 with that Fenix "upgrade"
- mook 4y agoIsn't it already there? At least, there appears to bea thing labeled NoScript in the add-on manager download list. Says it's last updated in April. (That's Firefox Android release version, not a nightly.)
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- boopmaster 4y agoI can appreciate the presence of USB 2.0 as I have experienced issues with RF/noise on USB 3. Wireless headphones… wireless mice… so yeah all 2.4ghz transceivers basically… lossy garbage connections have me tracing down old USB 2.0 ports on my PCs still today.
- li2uR3ce 4y agoLeakage tests really should be a strongly enforced part certification. I still find myself taking apart products to add foil tape to them. Go nerdy me I guess?
- davidgay 4y agoI've found that short extension cables are one solution to this problem.
- randomluck040 4y agoThis is the first time I’m reading something like this. I‘ll have to look that up since that would explain a lot of what‘s going on in my workspace.
- garaetjjte 4y agohttps://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/327216.pdf https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/327216.pdf
- randomluck040 4y agoFirst of all, thanks for answering. And well, crazy that we ended up with interoperability issues after all these years. I wonder when and if we will manage being „fully wireless“ anytime.
- Nition 4y agoThere are a few devices that work with USB 2 but not USB 3. The Logitech G27 is one example.
- jiveturkey 4y agoI like the TB4 page. But I wish there were some deep level reviews. I've tried every brand name TB3 dock. At least at the time, there were no simple "power expander" type docks, just the kind with a variety of ports. They are all buggy af. Although people do rave about the reliability of CalDigit, it's also buggy IME. I think people plug and unplug. If you leave any of these plugged in at all times, they all crash in some way. Now with TB4, I have an Anker simple 1-up 3-down compact dock. It works great in my testing and I'm happy to use dongles as the dock isn't portable anyway. But I had to put it in the drawer for the future, since it only works in TB3 mode with Bug Sir and above, and I'm holding out with Catalina as long as possible.
- microtonal 4y agoI think people plug and unplug. If you leave any of these plugged in at all times, they all crash in some way. Do you mean keep plugged in the laptop or keep the dock plugged into power all the time? I have three StarTech Thunderbolt 3 docks and so far no issues. Except that the first two that I bought have a Realtek NIC (which has subpar performance on macOS). The third has an Intel I210 and I am completely happy with the dock.
- jiveturkey 4y agoPlugged into the laptop (and into power) at all times. I found if I was moving the laptop from location to location (home to work, etc), most of the docks performed well. But if I leave my laptop for a week, eg only removing it on the weekend, all of the TB3 docks get squirrelly and in need of reset. Seems they all have problems with sleep or hibernate type situations -- even though macs don't hibernate unless on 2% power. Nowadays I use amphetamine and never let my laptop sleep or display sleep while on power, ever. I also now set my display to never enter energy saver mode. I don't have to gumption to go back and retest any TB3 docks with those settings though. I rather like the Anker TB4 I have now. IIRC I found CalDigit to be the most reliable, but it too would eventually crash or otherwise become invisible to the Mac.
- microtonal 4y ago
- Al-Khwarizmi 4y agoThe post says "Some folks would assume this is simply a cost saving measure..." and then goes on to explain in what way it actually is a cost saving measure. Very interesting anyway to know how it works.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- AndyPa32 4y agoAdditionally I don't like the fact that most newer USB Hubs have a cable that cannot be removed/changed.
- noneeeed 4y agoSo much this. Almost none of them are long enough to comfortably put a laptop on a stand and have the hub on the desk. If they would at least make the cables a bit longer it wouldn't be such a pain.
- seba_dos1 4y agoIt's also worth noting that DP and USB 3 lanes are shared. You can't use USB 3 when using a video mode that utilizes all 4 lanes (which is also why plenty of these hubs are limited to 4k30Hz on older DP revisions when they don't partition the lanes dynamically, as that's the most you can get out of 2 lanes).
- qwerty456127 4y agoNice point! Thanks. What I also am curious though is why PCIe-based USB-C/Thunderbolt controller cards have so little (usually just one, some have two) numbers of ports? In the worst case (e.g. if it's extremely hard/expensive to produce a controller chip to support multiple independent ports) I would at least augment such cards with on-board hubs to turn one port into more so a user wouldn't need to attach an external hub. In fact I have never seen a computer (neither laptop nor desktop) with more than 2 USB-C ports. This makes me feel like USB-C just has failed to become anything much more than a Micro-USB successor. Everything (incl. keyboards, mice and printers) going USB-C is probably never going to happen, is it?