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> On my first day, I completed 4 courses in the span of 4 hours. At a traditional school, it would have taken 4 months. It made me realize…I had underestimated

> On my first day, I completed 4 courses in the span of 4 hours. At a traditional school, it would have taken 4 months. It made me realize…I had underestimated how much knowledge I had gained from previous schools, jobs, projects, books, papers, and talks. This passage underscores how, for this guy and whoever he was selling himself to, a CS degree was just a credential. He did not have much intention of actually learning anything. That’s (I believe) fundamentally different than most people who seek college degrees.

bombcar 5y ago
This is way too close to CGNU ... A shady online degree is just four clicks away at CGNU online e-niversity. Most colleges take four years to complete. At CGNU, one year equals one click. https://youtu.be/RFi8aZm3jnQ?t=118 https://youtu.be/RFi8aZm3jnQ?t=118
dqpb 5y ago
> It made me realize…I had underestimated how much knowledge I had gained from previous schools, jobs, projects, books, papers, and talks. > He did not have much intention of actually learning anything. It’s sounds more like you read this paragraph without much intention of actually understanding anything.
Mathnerd314 5y ago
Right, most people are there for the parties and get degrees in underwater basket weaving. But the hard sciences and engineering are usually for the credentials. This is also how the programs are designed - if you fail the course there's no hand holding, you have to do it again or give up the degree. And the support that large universities give for their introductory courses is minimal, so generally your resources consist of the textbook and your lecture notes. The lectures online are just as good if you actually want to learn the material.
- robbyking 5y ago
  Off topic, but where did the "underwater basketweaving" meme (in the traditional sense) come from? My dad used to say that all the time in reference to what he considered frivolous academic pursuits.
  - mwint 5y ago
    Looks like the 50's, originally coming from an Alaskan practice: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_basket_weaving#Possible_origin_of_the_phrase https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_basket_weaving#Poss...
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - texuf 5y ago
    When you weave baskets you have to keep the reeds wet. It’s the hardest part other than the design itself I guess. Doing it under water would be easy. (From personal experience, no idea if this is actually correct)
  - kodah 5y ago
    The term came about in the 50s and is mainly used to highlight problems with the exploitative nature of the NCAA. Basically, athletes aren't being told to, or put in environment where they can, balance education and sports. Sports and selling the colleges brand take priority and colleges were known to make it easier for athletes to get through or with passing grades. Sometimes making up entire coursework for their athletes to take. https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/10/16/breaking-ncaa-finds-no-academic-fraud-unc https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/10/16/breaking-ncaa... That obviously undermines and frustrates anyone who had a hard time in college. My dad, who was a college athlete, used that term a lot to express frustration at systems which no longer served their purpose and were acting performatively.
    - robbyking 5y ago
      Thank you!
- gumby 5y ago
  > Right, most people are there for the parties and get degrees in underwater basket weaving. But the hard sciences and engineering are usually for the credentials. Did you intend to include a "not" as in "not for the credentials"? I would think you do a tough EE or Physics (or Classics) because you want to learn the stuff. That seemed to be the case when I was at MIT, though that was a generation ago. Everybody seemed into their work, despite claiming to be upset by the course load. Complaining about it (IHTFP) seemed to be more of a ritual or social activity rather than earnest protest.
  - Mathnerd314 5y ago
    No, I meant "for". If you just want to learn the material, you can learn it about as effectively for free with self-study and online MOOCs. It's the credentials that cost money, and the economic assumption is that the credentials are why people attend universities. Did you go to MIT because you wanted a high course load or because you wanted a prestigious degree?
    - gumby 5y ago
      Thanks for your answer — I really thought it likely a typo. Seems like a colossal waste of time and resources to pay for a school and not enjoy it much less learn anything. A modern bonfire of the vanities. I still learn a lot by reading, but many things do require interaction and guidance. > Did you go to MIT because you wanted a high course load or because you wanted a prestigious degree? I lost my diploma within a couple of hours of receiving it and nobody has ever asked me for it. I went there to learn things I thought I wouldn’t be able to learn anywhere else. At the time (early 80s) my high school classmates didn’t even consider it a prestigious school — those were the ivy leagues.
      - SamBam 5y ago
        I mean, nobody has ever asked for my paper diploma either (I lost it as well, the day after it was given) and I've never heard of anyone asking, but that doesn't mean the degree is useless. I certainly have "BA from such-and-such, MSc from such-and-such" on my resume. Evidence, if anyone cared, is only a phonecall away.
99_00 5y ago
A credential demonstrates that you have some knowledge or skill. If they already have the knowledge or skill, what would they learn from the degree regardless of what you assume his intention is.
- ibejoeb 5y ago
  Seems like we've come full circle. A credential from an institution was a good indicator of the caliber of the individual. Now, with Study.com and the roll-your-own degree programs, it's hard to know. That once-good indicator tells very little now. I went to NYU Gallatin for a bit and really wondered what in the world anyone seeing that on a cv would think.
  - 99_00 5y ago
    Why doesn't a roll-your-own degree from Study.com indicate the caliber of the individual in the way a credential from an institution used to?
  - triyambakam 5y ago
    > roll-your-own degree programs Can you explain that? But regarding Study.com, I think that their classes for CS are painful and horrible, but probably the same quality as countless physical schools out there.
- Tozen 5y ago
  At the point that the person already has years of work experience and demonstrable skill in the field, some would say the degree is arguably more "personal feel good" and/or vain attempt to avoid being discriminated against by "snobs". I say "vain attempt", because if you don't check the right boxes, the person is likely to get snubbed anyway. If you talk to many recruiters, depending on the field, the older person's work, supervisorial/managerial experience, and any references can be much more of the deciding factor. Don't get me wrong, degrees and certifications are very nice decorations, but there is no getting around who you know and doing well on the interview. That a working adult who has already established themselves professionally gets the degree in their later years, can be more about personal pride and dedication to their field, to make sure there isn't any gaps in their knowledge. And perhaps that's where the emphasis should be, showing personal growth and development. Someone taking the time to become better at what they do.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
I disagree. University is primarily about getting a degree to put on your resume. I can't think of anyone I've ever met who cared about what they actually learned in school, only that they got a piece of paper at the end.
- wheybags 5y ago
  You need to meet more people. Or ask more questions.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- bloqs 5y ago
  This is just not the case im afraid
- andai 5y ago
  I'm currently working as a web developer, partly so I can afford to go back to university! I didn't have the discipline/maturity to pass the first time, and now I don't qualify for student loans anymore. I'm genuinely interested in the material, and want to get a solid footing in every major part of the field. I just really like computer science, and if I didn't have to work for money, I'd probably spend a substantial portion of my energy learning and playing around with it. (You're probably right about the average person though: most of my ex-classmates don't care much for computer science, they just wanted well paying jobs—or else didn't know what else to do and went, "Well, I guess I'm good at computers, so...") I'm not very good at formal education though, so my approach is basically to learn everything before I go back to university, via https://teachyourselfcs.com/ https://teachyourselfcs.com/ Though at that point I question the value of the actual university, especially as the ones I've been to do not really teach the things I'm interested in, let alone in the way that suits me... heck, even MIT (my benchmark for "a good university") dropped SICP! So I might just get one of those online degrees instead. If teaching yourself everything before going to university seems odd, consider that university expects you to self-teach anyway -- the university just provides the external motivation (you paid a lot of money and people will judge you if you fail), along with its own complications (poorly designed/scheduled courses, depressingly unmotivated classmates/project partners, sleep-inducing (and sometimes) mandatory lectures).
csa 5y ago
> That’s (I believe) fundamentally different than most people who seek college degrees. For many/most degrees in the US, most folks are just going through the academic motions for the piece of paper and/or the college social experience. “Serious” students are largely only found in degree programs that have weeder courses.
- voakbasda 5y ago
  How many programs weed out students anymore? None that I have heard of, and the notion seems unlikely given that most are happy to take their students’ money all the way through graduation.
  - wollsmoth 5y ago
    It's been a while since I graduated but for those wanting a high demand major from a dept with limited resources, it seemed normal for one of the 100 level courses to be a step up in difficulty. Pushed out a lot of people from pursuing CS at my school. Other schools make you apply to the major, and that process just weeds out those the dept thinks are not suited for the program.
    - StillBored 5y ago
      There was an article here a month about this (related to an art program IIRC). Basically a number of schools "entry level" courses for certain majors aren't passable by someone with a general high school degree because they only accept students who already learned the groundwork before applying to the program. I noticed this recently while looking at MIT's computer science program for a data structures class I could recommend to a family member. Apparently MIT doesn't have an intro to data structures class. The I guess the assumption is that everyone applying to the program got their linked list/searching/sorting knowledge before beginning the program. They have a number of algorithm/datastructures classes but none of them teach the basic concepts. Similarly. I don't think they have an algebra I class (they have one called that, but its not what one learns in HS algebra, has calc/etc as prereqs). That might make sense because the basics of algebra are fairly consistent across HS curriculum and everyone takes it, but comp sci/data structures classes are all over the place, and I can see situations where a subset of students is scrambling to understand pointer linking/etc in the intro to algorithms class they have someone outside of the major taking their into to CS classes.
triyambakam 5y ago
> That’s (I believe) fundamentally different than most people who seek college degrees. Actually I'd bet it's fundamentally the same reason most people get a degree. Especially lately, it has become in the US nearly the default post highschool choice, mostly due to implicit social pressure and America's unique lack of technical training schools like in e.g. Switzerland
pessimizer 5y ago
And there's nothing wrong with that. There's something fundamentally ritualistic about asserting that people who already have the knowledge required for a credential are somehow debasing the credentialing system by testing out of it. I'd say that some people are looking for the "college experience." That's unrelated to education other than by proximity to it.
jdbernard 5y ago
As someone who has spent almost 20 years in software professionally, yeah. I'm considering doing the same thing because there are still plenty of people and employers out there that advantage people who have the paper. I highly doubt that there is anything in the course of study for a bachelors that will truly be new to me (especially since I already completed most of that study once). But if I did want to actually learn something, say by pursuing education at the graduate level, I have to get that credential rubber-stamping my existing knowledge.
- alasdair_ 5y ago
  >But if I did want to actually learn something, say by pursuing education at the graduate level, I have to get that credential rubber-stamping my existing knowledge. Most universities will let you audit a course, even graduate courses (if you can convince the professor you have experience in the area) just by paying a fee for that one class. You don't need a credential to do this.
  - giraffe_lady 5y ago
    I also didn't go to college but did a pretty solid set of online CS and math classes while working as a software developer. I'd love to get a masters degree, and it would benefit my career quite a lot. Auditing classes is fine¹ but probably not enough value for me on its own to be worth the time and opportunity cost. I'd want the degree and I'm fairly sure I have the skills and knowledge to begin a CS masters. But I can't get one without doing a BS first, which makes it overall just not worth the effort. ¹ Actually is it? I hear this recommended a lot but I don't know anyone who has audited a university course while not being a student. I tried it once at my local state school but it was an amazingly complex process to get signed up, and then I was told I could have a slot if there was ever an open one. There never was.
    - triyambakam 5y ago
      > and it would benefit my career quite a lot. How? I have quite a few colleagues with Master's in CS who are no more competent or well paid than me with no degree at all.
brightball 5y ago
This is great to know about though. Would be interesting to complete such a program for somebody with the knowledge coming out of high school. Makes you wonder how it would affect admission criteria at other 4 year colleges if you can show an entire CS degree on your application. I wonder how that gets weighted?
- csa 5y ago
  > Makes you wonder how it would affect admission criteria at other 4 year colleges if you can show an entire CS degree on your application. I wonder how that gets weighted? At competitive schools, most likely negatively. Just apply to the graduate program. Getting a WGU degree is not some sign of academic prowess that would rate one highly at an elite university — maybe the equivalent of perfect GPA in a college-bound HS curriculum. Being a big fish in a small pond is not exceptional. At large state schools, they would just treat it like a CC and let you transfer in a certain number or credits (mostly non-major). At most other schools, they won’t care as long as you pay them.
ravenstine 5y ago
> That’s (I believe) fundamentally different than most people who seek college degrees. My experience talking with people suggests otherwise. When I became an adult and got a few years into my career, it was surprising to me how few people had anything interesting to say about their line of work even to the point of actual disinterest. Yeah, I know that a lot of people don't like to talk about work, but I'm saying that many people not only avoid the topic of their career but will even tell you they don't really care about or like what they do. I've had so many girls I went on dates with who were completely disengaged with their careers and even admitted they got a degree just to make money. I'm talking girls who were chemical engineers, biologists and so forth. Some genuinely liked what they do, but I think ~70% didn't give a f---. I'm not blaming people in any way, but I think the reality is that not everyone, or even most, are doing what they do as part of a greater calling. They're just humans trying to get by and maybe have a family. The appreciating value of intellectual work along with the idea that everyone should be well-rounded contributes to this impression that people are doing things like getting degrees for reasons that aren't merely utilitarian, but most of the time I think that's not the case.
- randrews 5y ago
  Part of this might be the context of a date: I spend long hours outside work learning and building things just because I find my profession interesting, but when most people ask about it I change the subject quickly because I know exactly how boring my interests are to most people: I assume they're asking to be polite and don't want an in-depth discourse on CPU design.
- robocat 5y ago
  > so many girls I went on dates with who were completely disengaged with their careers Any reason not to think that there was a selection bias for the sample of women who choose to go on a date via the platform you used, or choose to try a date with you?
shkkmo 5y ago
> This passage underscores how, for this guy and whoever he was selling himself to, a CS degree was just a credential. He did not have much intention of actually learning anything. That directly contradicts what the author said about his intentions and experience: >> While I had some PAs returned for improvements, I made sure to never fail an OA – even if retakes (up to 3-4) were allowed. It wasn’t a race, and my goal wasn’t to brute force my way into a degree. I came for the piece of paper, sure, but I also used it as an opportunity to assess and fill gaps in my knowledge. As a result, I never came close to failing an exam.
LudwigNagasena 5y ago
In the context of CS degrees I think that credentials is oftentimes the only major reason why people pursue college.
dr_dshiv 5y ago
I’d love to see something similar for a PhD. If one could publish three good papers, teach some courses and write/defend a thesis — what’s the minimum time requirement for completion?
- blagie 5y ago
  Most places have no time minimum for a Ph.D. For world record, a few geniuses finished them in a year. Fastest for someone I know personally: three years from one of the top universities in the US. This is realistic. Can't say they got much out of the program, though. All-in-all, it seemed like a waste of time. I spent a __long__ time in graduate school, taking interesting courses, travelling the world, and just on learning and intellectual exploration. If you want that, get a Ph.D. Just realize your advisor is just that -- an advisor, and not your boss. You don't need to do what they tell you to do. If you want a slip of paper, consider why you want it, and if you wouldn't be better served by an MBA, MS, or something else. A Ph.D is not all that important, career-wise. Rushing a BS makes complete sense to me. A Ph.D? Not so much.
  - dr_dshiv 5y ago
    > Rushing a BS makes complete sense to me. A Ph.D? Not so much. Hmm, opposite feelings. I needed time in the bachelor to figure out what I wanted. For many scientific professionals, they might be publishing papers and could potentially even write a thesis on the side. This would enable them to get the degree and teach, should they want to.
    - mattkrause 5y ago
      Are there many scientific professionals without PhDs though? My impression is that most people writing scientific papers are already somewhere in/through that pipeline.
      - dr_dshiv 5y ago
        Yes, there are. I know several.
Bedon292 5y ago
I think the distinction here is more that this person was already a working professional. And seems to have had the appropriate knowledge to pass most of the classes already. I got my Masters in a field I had already been working in for years, and the majority of the classes I took taught me nothing new since I already knew the subjects. A few taught me some things about subjects I was not familiar with and took some extra effort but overall the classes weren't that useful. But it was still important for me to get that credential on my resume.
welshwelsh 5y ago
>He did not have much intention of actually learning anything. I strongly disagree, you are missing the point of competency based education. It's important to understand that an undergraduate CS degree needs to be accessible even to people without much IT experience. Some people come in with no experience with computers at all. Look at the names of the first four courses: C182: Introduction to IT C172: Network and Security - Foundations C779: Web Development Foundations C173: Scripting and Programming - Foundations Most people on Hacker News would be bored out of their minds taking these courses. Do you know what a computer is? Do you know the difference between HTML and Javascript? Can you write basic scripts using Bash or Python? That's what foundational courses are for. If you are already beyond this level- which the author clearly was- you can just test out of them. Pass an exam to prove that you already know this stuff, so then you can move on to more advanced material that's more appropriate for you.
lock-the-spock 5y ago
Traditionally a degree certifies a certain level of knowledge. Is there a reason to insist on classroom learning to get that degree? All across Europe you could generally get somewhere from 10-40% of your credits through "recognition of prior learning", although few students actually take these offers as they either don't know about them or are shy about the admin. Most European education also is very affordable, e.g. Germany with generally less than 1000€/year for (excellent but crowded) public universities, and many side benefits such as free public transport.
oaiey 5y ago
This concrete university was built for exactly that purpose like another poster outlined. It was built for the purpose to get credits and certificates for knowledge you have, not necessarily to acquire them.
thomastjeffery 5y ago
My experience is that college is heavily advertised as the choice for personal/professional growth, and there aren't many alternatives provided. Because of that, most people assume college to be the natural course of progression, even if it isn't a good fit.
barry-cotter 5y ago
Did you read the rest of the article?
mumblemumble 5y ago
Former CS program TA here. It's not just him. At least at the time I was doing it, it was a lot of people in the program. Maybe even half. At the time, it annoyed me to no end. Not so much anymore. Programming is a well-paid profession with relatively few barriers to entry. The degree is (usually) one of them. Treating it as just another thing you need to get past in order to get to a good career is fine. Good even. Probably saner than my younger self's "I love this and it will consume my entire life for at least a decade" approach to the subject. The older me kind of wants to have more people like this on my team. There's a certain ruthless logic and economy of effort here that really earns my respect. It might help counterbalance the tendency to get carried away and over-engineer things that many of us "CS is my life's calling" people tend to exhibit.
- Dracophoenix 5y ago
  How did you learn to get out of the romantic obsession with code and computers?
  - mumblemumble 5y ago
    I replaced it with a deeply jaded attitude.
alar44 5y ago
I'm 20 years into my career and know how to program competently. I have missed out on job opportunities because I don't have any credentials other than experience. I'm the type of person who would test out of everything immediately because I already know it. Guessing it's similar for this fellow.

bombcar 5y ago

This is way too close to CGNU ... A shady online degree is just four clicks away at CGNU online e-niversity. Most colleges take four years to complete. At CGNU, one year equals one click. https://youtu.be/RFi8aZm3jnQ?t=118 https://youtu.be/RFi8aZm3jnQ?t=118

dqpb 5y ago

> It made me realize…I had underestimated how much knowledge I had gained from previous schools, jobs, projects, books, papers, and talks. > He did not have much intention of actually learning anything. It’s sounds more like you read this paragraph without much intention of actually understanding anything.

Mathnerd314 5y ago

Right, most people are there for the parties and get degrees in underwater basket weaving. But the hard sciences and engineering are usually for the credentials. This is also how the programs are designed - if you fail the course there's no hand holding, you have to do it again or give up the degree. And the support that large universities give for their introductory courses is minimal, so generally your resources consist of the textbook and your lecture notes. The lectures online are just as good if you actually want to learn the material.

robbyking 5y ago
Off topic, but where did the "underwater basketweaving" meme (in the traditional sense) come from? My dad used to say that all the time in reference to what he considered frivolous academic pursuits.
- mwint 5y ago
  Looks like the 50's, originally coming from an Alaskan practice: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_basket_weaving#Possible_origin_of_the_phrase https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_basket_weaving#Poss...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- texuf 5y ago
  When you weave baskets you have to keep the reeds wet. It’s the hardest part other than the design itself I guess. Doing it under water would be easy. (From personal experience, no idea if this is actually correct)
- kodah 5y ago
  The term came about in the 50s and is mainly used to highlight problems with the exploitative nature of the NCAA. Basically, athletes aren't being told to, or put in environment where they can, balance education and sports. Sports and selling the colleges brand take priority and colleges were known to make it easier for athletes to get through or with passing grades. Sometimes making up entire coursework for their athletes to take. https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/10/16/breaking-ncaa-finds-no-academic-fraud-unc https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/10/16/breaking-ncaa... That obviously undermines and frustrates anyone who had a hard time in college. My dad, who was a college athlete, used that term a lot to express frustration at systems which no longer served their purpose and were acting performatively.
  - robbyking 5y ago
    Thank you!
gumby 5y ago
> Right, most people are there for the parties and get degrees in underwater basket weaving. But the hard sciences and engineering are usually for the credentials. Did you intend to include a "not" as in "not for the credentials"? I would think you do a tough EE or Physics (or Classics) because you want to learn the stuff. That seemed to be the case when I was at MIT, though that was a generation ago. Everybody seemed into their work, despite claiming to be upset by the course load. Complaining about it (IHTFP) seemed to be more of a ritual or social activity rather than earnest protest.
- Mathnerd314 5y ago
  No, I meant "for". If you just want to learn the material, you can learn it about as effectively for free with self-study and online MOOCs. It's the credentials that cost money, and the economic assumption is that the credentials are why people attend universities. Did you go to MIT because you wanted a high course load or because you wanted a prestigious degree?
  - gumby 5y ago
    Thanks for your answer — I really thought it likely a typo. Seems like a colossal waste of time and resources to pay for a school and not enjoy it much less learn anything. A modern bonfire of the vanities. I still learn a lot by reading, but many things do require interaction and guidance. > Did you go to MIT because you wanted a high course load or because you wanted a prestigious degree? I lost my diploma within a couple of hours of receiving it and nobody has ever asked me for it. I went there to learn things I thought I wouldn’t be able to learn anywhere else. At the time (early 80s) my high school classmates didn’t even consider it a prestigious school — those were the ivy leagues.
    - SamBam 5y ago
      I mean, nobody has ever asked for my paper diploma either (I lost it as well, the day after it was given) and I've never heard of anyone asking, but that doesn't mean the degree is useless. I certainly have "BA from such-and-such, MSc from such-and-such" on my resume. Evidence, if anyone cared, is only a phonecall away.

99_00 5y ago

A credential demonstrates that you have some knowledge or skill. If they already have the knowledge or skill, what would they learn from the degree regardless of what you assume his intention is.

ibejoeb 5y ago
Seems like we've come full circle. A credential from an institution was a good indicator of the caliber of the individual. Now, with Study.com and the roll-your-own degree programs, it's hard to know. That once-good indicator tells very little now. I went to NYU Gallatin for a bit and really wondered what in the world anyone seeing that on a cv would think.
- 99_00 5y ago
  Why doesn't a roll-your-own degree from Study.com indicate the caliber of the individual in the way a credential from an institution used to?
- triyambakam 5y ago
  > roll-your-own degree programs Can you explain that? But regarding Study.com, I think that their classes for CS are painful and horrible, but probably the same quality as countless physical schools out there.
Tozen 5y ago
At the point that the person already has years of work experience and demonstrable skill in the field, some would say the degree is arguably more "personal feel good" and/or vain attempt to avoid being discriminated against by "snobs". I say "vain attempt", because if you don't check the right boxes, the person is likely to get snubbed anyway. If you talk to many recruiters, depending on the field, the older person's work, supervisorial/managerial experience, and any references can be much more of the deciding factor. Don't get me wrong, degrees and certifications are very nice decorations, but there is no getting around who you know and doing well on the interview. That a working adult who has already established themselves professionally gets the degree in their later years, can be more about personal pride and dedication to their field, to make sure there isn't any gaps in their knowledge. And perhaps that's where the emphasis should be, showing personal growth and development. Someone taking the time to become better at what they do.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago

I disagree. University is primarily about getting a degree to put on your resume. I can't think of anyone I've ever met who cared about what they actually learned in school, only that they got a piece of paper at the end.

wheybags 5y ago
You need to meet more people. Or ask more questions.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
bloqs 5y ago
This is just not the case im afraid
andai 5y ago
I'm currently working as a web developer, partly so I can afford to go back to university! I didn't have the discipline/maturity to pass the first time, and now I don't qualify for student loans anymore. I'm genuinely interested in the material, and want to get a solid footing in every major part of the field. I just really like computer science, and if I didn't have to work for money, I'd probably spend a substantial portion of my energy learning and playing around with it. (You're probably right about the average person though: most of my ex-classmates don't care much for computer science, they just wanted well paying jobs—or else didn't know what else to do and went, "Well, I guess I'm good at computers, so...") I'm not very good at formal education though, so my approach is basically to learn everything before I go back to university, via https://teachyourselfcs.com/ https://teachyourselfcs.com/ Though at that point I question the value of the actual university, especially as the ones I've been to do not really teach the things I'm interested in, let alone in the way that suits me... heck, even MIT (my benchmark for "a good university") dropped SICP! So I might just get one of those online degrees instead. If teaching yourself everything before going to university seems odd, consider that university expects you to self-teach anyway -- the university just provides the external motivation (you paid a lot of money and people will judge you if you fail), along with its own complications (poorly designed/scheduled courses, depressingly unmotivated classmates/project partners, sleep-inducing (and sometimes) mandatory lectures).

csa 5y ago

> That’s (I believe) fundamentally different than most people who seek college degrees. For many/most degrees in the US, most folks are just going through the academic motions for the piece of paper and/or the college social experience. “Serious” students are largely only found in degree programs that have weeder courses.

voakbasda 5y ago
How many programs weed out students anymore? None that I have heard of, and the notion seems unlikely given that most are happy to take their students’ money all the way through graduation.
- wollsmoth 5y ago
  It's been a while since I graduated but for those wanting a high demand major from a dept with limited resources, it seemed normal for one of the 100 level courses to be a step up in difficulty. Pushed out a lot of people from pursuing CS at my school. Other schools make you apply to the major, and that process just weeds out those the dept thinks are not suited for the program.
  - StillBored 5y ago
    There was an article here a month about this (related to an art program IIRC). Basically a number of schools "entry level" courses for certain majors aren't passable by someone with a general high school degree because they only accept students who already learned the groundwork before applying to the program. I noticed this recently while looking at MIT's computer science program for a data structures class I could recommend to a family member. Apparently MIT doesn't have an intro to data structures class. The I guess the assumption is that everyone applying to the program got their linked list/searching/sorting knowledge before beginning the program. They have a number of algorithm/datastructures classes but none of them teach the basic concepts. Similarly. I don't think they have an algebra I class (they have one called that, but its not what one learns in HS algebra, has calc/etc as prereqs). That might make sense because the basics of algebra are fairly consistent across HS curriculum and everyone takes it, but comp sci/data structures classes are all over the place, and I can see situations where a subset of students is scrambling to understand pointer linking/etc in the intro to algorithms class they have someone outside of the major taking their into to CS classes.

triyambakam 5y ago

> That’s (I believe) fundamentally different than most people who seek college degrees. Actually I'd bet it's fundamentally the same reason most people get a degree. Especially lately, it has become in the US nearly the default post highschool choice, mostly due to implicit social pressure and America's unique lack of technical training schools like in e.g. Switzerland

pessimizer 5y ago

And there's nothing wrong with that. There's something fundamentally ritualistic about asserting that people who already have the knowledge required for a credential are somehow debasing the credentialing system by testing out of it. I'd say that some people are looking for the "college experience." That's unrelated to education other than by proximity to it.

jdbernard 5y ago

As someone who has spent almost 20 years in software professionally, yeah. I'm considering doing the same thing because there are still plenty of people and employers out there that advantage people who have the paper. I highly doubt that there is anything in the course of study for a bachelors that will truly be new to me (especially since I already completed most of that study once). But if I did want to actually learn something, say by pursuing education at the graduate level, I have to get that credential rubber-stamping my existing knowledge.

alasdair_ 5y ago
>But if I did want to actually learn something, say by pursuing education at the graduate level, I have to get that credential rubber-stamping my existing knowledge. Most universities will let you audit a course, even graduate courses (if you can convince the professor you have experience in the area) just by paying a fee for that one class. You don't need a credential to do this.
- giraffe_lady 5y ago
  I also didn't go to college but did a pretty solid set of online CS and math classes while working as a software developer. I'd love to get a masters degree, and it would benefit my career quite a lot. Auditing classes is fine¹ but probably not enough value for me on its own to be worth the time and opportunity cost. I'd want the degree and I'm fairly sure I have the skills and knowledge to begin a CS masters. But I can't get one without doing a BS first, which makes it overall just not worth the effort. ¹ Actually is it? I hear this recommended a lot but I don't know anyone who has audited a university course while not being a student. I tried it once at my local state school but it was an amazingly complex process to get signed up, and then I was told I could have a slot if there was ever an open one. There never was.
  - triyambakam 5y ago
    > and it would benefit my career quite a lot. How? I have quite a few colleagues with Master's in CS who are no more competent or well paid than me with no degree at all.

brightball 5y ago

This is great to know about though. Would be interesting to complete such a program for somebody with the knowledge coming out of high school. Makes you wonder how it would affect admission criteria at other 4 year colleges if you can show an entire CS degree on your application. I wonder how that gets weighted?

csa 5y ago
> Makes you wonder how it would affect admission criteria at other 4 year colleges if you can show an entire CS degree on your application. I wonder how that gets weighted? At competitive schools, most likely negatively. Just apply to the graduate program. Getting a WGU degree is not some sign of academic prowess that would rate one highly at an elite university — maybe the equivalent of perfect GPA in a college-bound HS curriculum. Being a big fish in a small pond is not exceptional. At large state schools, they would just treat it like a CC and let you transfer in a certain number or credits (mostly non-major). At most other schools, they won’t care as long as you pay them.

ravenstine 5y ago

> That’s (I believe) fundamentally different than most people who seek college degrees. My experience talking with people suggests otherwise. When I became an adult and got a few years into my career, it was surprising to me how few people had anything interesting to say about their line of work even to the point of actual disinterest. Yeah, I know that a lot of people don't like to talk about work, but I'm saying that many people not only avoid the topic of their career but will even tell you they don't really care about or like what they do. I've had so many girls I went on dates with who were completely disengaged with their careers and even admitted they got a degree just to make money. I'm talking girls who were chemical engineers, biologists and so forth. Some genuinely liked what they do, but I think ~70% didn't give a f---. I'm not blaming people in any way, but I think the reality is that not everyone, or even most, are doing what they do as part of a greater calling. They're just humans trying to get by and maybe have a family. The appreciating value of intellectual work along with the idea that everyone should be well-rounded contributes to this impression that people are doing things like getting degrees for reasons that aren't merely utilitarian, but most of the time I think that's not the case.

randrews 5y ago
Part of this might be the context of a date: I spend long hours outside work learning and building things just because I find my profession interesting, but when most people ask about it I change the subject quickly because I know exactly how boring my interests are to most people: I assume they're asking to be polite and don't want an in-depth discourse on CPU design.
robocat 5y ago
> so many girls I went on dates with who were completely disengaged with their careers Any reason not to think that there was a selection bias for the sample of women who choose to go on a date via the platform you used, or choose to try a date with you?

shkkmo 5y ago

> This passage underscores how, for this guy and whoever he was selling himself to, a CS degree was just a credential. He did not have much intention of actually learning anything. That directly contradicts what the author said about his intentions and experience: >> While I had some PAs returned for improvements, I made sure to never fail an OA – even if retakes (up to 3-4) were allowed. It wasn’t a race, and my goal wasn’t to brute force my way into a degree. I came for the piece of paper, sure, but I also used it as an opportunity to assess and fill gaps in my knowledge. As a result, I never came close to failing an exam.

LudwigNagasena 5y ago

In the context of CS degrees I think that credentials is oftentimes the only major reason why people pursue college.

dr_dshiv 5y ago

I’d love to see something similar for a PhD. If one could publish three good papers, teach some courses and write/defend a thesis — what’s the minimum time requirement for completion?

blagie 5y ago
Most places have no time minimum for a Ph.D. For world record, a few geniuses finished them in a year. Fastest for someone I know personally: three years from one of the top universities in the US. This is realistic. Can't say they got much out of the program, though. All-in-all, it seemed like a waste of time. I spent a __long__ time in graduate school, taking interesting courses, travelling the world, and just on learning and intellectual exploration. If you want that, get a Ph.D. Just realize your advisor is just that -- an advisor, and not your boss. You don't need to do what they tell you to do. If you want a slip of paper, consider why you want it, and if you wouldn't be better served by an MBA, MS, or something else. A Ph.D is not all that important, career-wise. Rushing a BS makes complete sense to me. A Ph.D? Not so much.
- dr_dshiv 5y ago
  > Rushing a BS makes complete sense to me. A Ph.D? Not so much. Hmm, opposite feelings. I needed time in the bachelor to figure out what I wanted. For many scientific professionals, they might be publishing papers and could potentially even write a thesis on the side. This would enable them to get the degree and teach, should they want to.
  - mattkrause 5y ago
    Are there many scientific professionals without PhDs though? My impression is that most people writing scientific papers are already somewhere in/through that pipeline.
    - dr_dshiv 5y ago
      Yes, there are. I know several.

Bedon292 5y ago

I think the distinction here is more that this person was already a working professional. And seems to have had the appropriate knowledge to pass most of the classes already. I got my Masters in a field I had already been working in for years, and the majority of the classes I took taught me nothing new since I already knew the subjects. A few taught me some things about subjects I was not familiar with and took some extra effort but overall the classes weren't that useful. But it was still important for me to get that credential on my resume.

welshwelsh 5y ago

>He did not have much intention of actually learning anything. I strongly disagree, you are missing the point of competency based education. It's important to understand that an undergraduate CS degree needs to be accessible even to people without much IT experience. Some people come in with no experience with computers at all. Look at the names of the first four courses: C182: Introduction to IT C172: Network and Security - Foundations C779: Web Development Foundations C173: Scripting and Programming - Foundations Most people on Hacker News would be bored out of their minds taking these courses. Do you know what a computer is? Do you know the difference between HTML and Javascript? Can you write basic scripts using Bash or Python? That's what foundational courses are for. If you are already beyond this level- which the author clearly was- you can just test out of them. Pass an exam to prove that you already know this stuff, so then you can move on to more advanced material that's more appropriate for you.

lock-the-spock 5y ago

Traditionally a degree certifies a certain level of knowledge. Is there a reason to insist on classroom learning to get that degree? All across Europe you could generally get somewhere from 10-40% of your credits through "recognition of prior learning", although few students actually take these offers as they either don't know about them or are shy about the admin. Most European education also is very affordable, e.g. Germany with generally less than 1000€/year for (excellent but crowded) public universities, and many side benefits such as free public transport.

oaiey 5y ago

This concrete university was built for exactly that purpose like another poster outlined. It was built for the purpose to get credits and certificates for knowledge you have, not necessarily to acquire them.

thomastjeffery 5y ago

My experience is that college is heavily advertised as the choice for personal/professional growth, and there aren't many alternatives provided. Because of that, most people assume college to be the natural course of progression, even if it isn't a good fit.

barry-cotter 5y ago

Did you read the rest of the article?

mumblemumble 5y ago

Former CS program TA here. It's not just him. At least at the time I was doing it, it was a lot of people in the program. Maybe even half. At the time, it annoyed me to no end. Not so much anymore. Programming is a well-paid profession with relatively few barriers to entry. The degree is (usually) one of them. Treating it as just another thing you need to get past in order to get to a good career is fine. Good even. Probably saner than my younger self's "I love this and it will consume my entire life for at least a decade" approach to the subject. The older me kind of wants to have more people like this on my team. There's a certain ruthless logic and economy of effort here that really earns my respect. It might help counterbalance the tendency to get carried away and over-engineer things that many of us "CS is my life's calling" people tend to exhibit.

Dracophoenix 5y ago
How did you learn to get out of the romantic obsession with code and computers?
- mumblemumble 5y ago
  I replaced it with a deeply jaded attitude.

alar44 5y ago

I'm 20 years into my career and know how to program competently. I have missed out on job opportunities because I don't have any credentials other than experience. I'm the type of person who would test out of everything immediately because I already know it. Guessing it's similar for this fellow.