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I got a computer science degree in 3 months for less than $5000 (2020)

dang 4y ago
Discussed at the time: I prepared for a decade to graduate in CS in three months - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25467900 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25467900 - Dec 2020 (374 comments)
syspec 4y ago
>If necessary, many of these shortcomings can be offset by using the 3+ years you’ve saved to do an Online Master of Science in Computer Science (OMSCS) at Georgia Tech (<$10,000). Could someone elaborate on what this part means?
leugim 4y ago
Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25467900 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25467900
rtkwe 4y ago
Some context on WGU > An audit by the Department of Education's Office of Inspector General, released on September 21, 2017, "concluded that Western Governors University did not comply with the institutional eligibility requirement that limits the percentage of regular students who may enroll in correspondence courses" and that "at least 69 of the 102 courses were not designed to offer regular and substantive interaction with an instructor and, therefore, did not meet the regulatory definition of distance education." They later kept their federal loan eligibility but it sounds like it might have been a case where they skated by due to a lack of clear guidance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Governors_University https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Governors_University
- adamisom 4y ago
  Lack of clear guidance is right. The existing outdated laws or regulations just didn’t make sense for their business model or for the Internet age. WGU is regionally accredited in all regions. Not to say it’s good-quality education; it’s not. But frankly most colleges aren’t and I think it meets the same (low) bar that most colleges do—and does better for job-readiness and cost. I have most of a degree from it. I’m still not sure I’d recommend it to others though. I’m not even 100% sure I’ll finish!—but I’m leaning toward finishing to make it easier to get into OMSCS or similar. It’s not what got me my job and career. But if you don’t already have a degree (I did, psychology) it’s probably worth it if you think checking the box can help your career or even just help you hunt for your first paid job.
  - no_wizard 4y ago
    It’s fine education if you make it so. My direct experience is that I can attain the same knowledge (and then some) as I would at a traditional university I had to seek it actively however. I think outside of the most elite schools this holds true no matter what. Most people just go through the course motions and that’s that, even engineering students
  - triyambakam 4y ago
    I was in disbelief when I found out that some people are in a dilemma about getting a CS degree or not, when they already have some other degree. And here I am with no degree in anything, working as a SWE. I've gone back and forth about it - mostly I don't care about the fake degree from WGU and similar schools and then to get a degree where I'd actually learn something new (MIT maybe?) it would be a huge time sync, cost and I'm not sure I'd even be accepted.
    - no_wizard 4y ago
      I can tell you from experience that every company, from Meta to Apple to hell, even 90% of startups, will just accept the CS degree as is. I'd say to working professionals (those with a couple years experience in the industry now) its a bigger win because it matters astronomically less where you got your degree than when you are first starting out as an engineer. It keeps the gatekeepers away and checks all the recruitment boxes across the board. Its also a good gateway to get a useful Masters degree, like the two year Computer Science and Engineering degree from Georgia Tech, which if I recall correctly is very cost effective and highly regarded
    - miguelrochefort 4y ago
      My motivations: - Canadians need a bachelor’s degree to work in the USA. - Graduate programs typically require a bachelor’s degree.
      - triyambakam 4y ago
        As far as working in the US, I can understand that. And as for a Master's, I'm not sure I'd ever want that. The Georgia Tech OMCS for example has a good name but I doubt I couldn't learn the same material for free. Will I get left behind in the industry among a sea of Master's and Phds?
pkdpic 4y ago
I went to a bootcamp for 6 months for less than $20,000.
- biofox 4y ago
  I read all the man pages for $0 /s
  - goodpoint 4y ago
    This but without the "/s".
aidenn0 4y ago
When I was in undergrad (20ish years ago) it was absolutely possible for a motivated student to graduate at a highly accelerated rate. I know someone who had approximately 5 semesters worth of classes done at the end of his freshman year, having taken about 40 credits worth of classes each semester (12 credits was considered "full time" and you needed to average slightly more than that per semester to graduate in 4 years in most degrees). He was able to do this because: 1. Only foreign language classes and lab sciences had class-participation requirements 2. All classes published a syllabus so where possible he could start the major projects early 3. Most of the lower-division classes were a joke to a smart and motivated person anyways. 4. He convinced an academic advisor to sign off on it (this was arguably the hardest part).
- brimble 4y ago
  At a lot of schools, you can take CLEP tests to get out of (especially) 100 and 200 level courses. Take the test, pay a (somewhat lower) rate for the credit without taking the actual class, and it's done. If you're capable of completing 5 semesters worth in 2 semesters, you're probably capable of passing several of those tests with only a little studying over a Summer.
  - aidenn0 4y ago
    At this Univiersity, at this time, you could not take CLEP tests for credit in any classes that were in the same school as your major. So e.g. a Physics major (school of science) could not get credit for the e.g. Math and Chemistry (also school of science) requirements without signing up for the actual course. There were other classes without any official CLEP, so the process was to convince a board of professors to orally examine you on a day that they'd rather be with their family on vacation or doing research.
  - gravypod 4y ago
    Most colleges are a "scam". When doing my degree I tested out of the maximum number of classes which, in my opinion, is infuriating and a perfect example of how dishonest the industry is. If you know the material you should get the degree. That, in my opinion, is how a merit based education should work. Instead, our system asks: Do you have the support system to and finances to enable you to spend 4 years without earning an income to complete a degree program?
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davelacy 4y ago
Got a degree in clickbait headlines too, apparently :)
- VWWHFSfQ 4y ago
  what is click bait about it
  - RankingMember 4y ago
    Personally, reading that headline, I would think "oh wow, this guy learned enough computer science to get his degree in 3 months, he's either some kind of super genius or has some crazy learning hacks to share", when really he just Game-Genie'd to the end credits as a formality since he already knew computer science and just wanted the piece of paper. An example of a non-clickbait title for this article: "I already knew computer science; here's how I got the piece of paper in 3 months"
    - juanci_to 4y ago
      For me, what he wrote is exactly what I expected from the title. In some universities from where I am there's something known as "rendir libre", which means that you can skip classes but still do the final exam for each subject, so you would be able to achieve something similar to this. I like that kind of system, as I don't like the bureaucracy of the education system getting in the way of someone who has the knowledge, I think it was a nice read and what WGU does is useful for a minority of people.
  - gear_envy 4y ago
    “The Curiosity Gap” The title is written in an intentionally vague way to entice a potential viewer into clicking it. If the title was: “I Got a CS Degree in 3 Months for Less Than $5000 from WGU”, that’s not clickbait because it tells a more complete story. (But telling the whole story from the title means people won’t click, so that’s why it’s written like that)
hammock 4y ago
> On my first day, I completed 4 courses in the span of 4 hours. At a traditional school, it would have taken 4 months. It made me realize…I had underestimated how much knowledge I had gained from previous schools, jobs, projects, books, papers, and talks. This passage underscores how, for this guy and whoever he was selling himself to, a CS degree was just a credential. He did not have much intention of actually learning anything. That’s (I believe) fundamentally different than most people who seek college degrees.
- bombcar 4y ago
  This is way too close to CGNU ... A shady online degree is just four clicks away at CGNU online e-niversity. Most colleges take four years to complete. At CGNU, one year equals one click. https://youtu.be/RFi8aZm3jnQ?t=118 https://youtu.be/RFi8aZm3jnQ?t=118
- dqpb 4y ago
  > It made me realize…I had underestimated how much knowledge I had gained from previous schools, jobs, projects, books, papers, and talks. > He did not have much intention of actually learning anything. It’s sounds more like you read this paragraph without much intention of actually understanding anything.
- Mathnerd314 4y ago
  Right, most people are there for the parties and get degrees in underwater basket weaving. But the hard sciences and engineering are usually for the credentials. This is also how the programs are designed - if you fail the course there's no hand holding, you have to do it again or give up the degree. And the support that large universities give for their introductory courses is minimal, so generally your resources consist of the textbook and your lecture notes. The lectures online are just as good if you actually want to learn the material.
  - robbyking 4y ago
    Off topic, but where did the "underwater basketweaving" meme (in the traditional sense) come from? My dad used to say that all the time in reference to what he considered frivolous academic pursuits.
b8 4y ago
I thought about going to WGU instead of a community college/transferring to a private/state school to earn my bachelors, but after starting to apply to WGU it literally seemed like a diploma mil to me. There would be WGU recruiters constantly calling me etc. and overall didn't seem legit to me. So, I decided to go to school for 4-6 years instead. I wonder if places like RenTech would hire someone with a degree from rentech. I think that the DoD hires folks with degrees from UoP, so I'm not surprised they would. I saw a few folks on Linkedin work at Amazon with degrees from WGU and on their website they list that a few students got accepted to grad programs to Harvard etc. [1]. https://www.uopeople.edu/ https://www.uopeople.edu/ WGU reminds me of the uopeople which is in the process of earning regional accreditation. 1. https://www.wgu.edu/alumni/career-support/education-and-professional-paths.html https://www.wgu.edu/alumni/career-support/education-and-prof...
- csa 4y ago
  > I think that the DoD hires folks with degrees from UoP Most federal government jobs that require a degree only require one from an accredited university. The quality of the degree is not relevant for any but the most sought after positions (e.g., certain state department jobs, federal judge clerkships, etc.). I think some military folks and some GS folks who want to move up to higher jobs but are prevented by the degree requirement often go to places like WGU. Same holds for masters and doctorate degrees.
- imwillofficial 4y ago
  I’m a student of WGU, and tried UoP, not the same whatsoever. UoP was garbage. Flagged me for fraud on my first test. WGU is what it says it is. Online school with no breaks designed for low friction at the cost of interaction.
- no_wizard 4y ago
  It really isn't, they hold regional accreditation which, while debatable in total, is much harder to get than national accreditation, because the audit is considered to be much more strict. What WGU is though, is mostly self guided learning, you don't have a traditional professor, you have advisors and pooled resources and group study to drive learning and for asking questions. It does work, if you're a very motivated person and learn well without professor / teacher guidance like you would get at a traditional state school. Is it perfect? No, its definitely not, but its not a diploma mill, and I'd argue its of higher quality than University Of Phoenix and the like. It's not even structured as a for-profit enterprise. WGU filled the gap as a working professional. They're extremely affordable too. Would I advise someone who say, is just graduating high school and can get into a state school or good college with scholarships to pivot over to WGU? No, I wouldn't, but they wouldn't benefit from WGU the same way either at that stage of life IMO.
deleted 4y ago
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richardwhiuk 4y ago
Degrees are only worth anything with the backing of a good university. This course isn't accredited. Additionally, he transferred in a bunch of credit from elsewhere, and had watched multiple MIT lectures, so it's hardly 3 months of effort.
- print_goto_ten 4y ago
  >It’s accredited. Their programs are accredited by the Northwest Commission on Colleges and Universities (NWCCU), the same accreditation body used by the University of Washington (#24) and the University of Oregon (#94).
imwillofficial 4y ago
Going to WGU now, it is exactly as advertised. Low friction, decent quality education at a low price.
- splitstud 4y ago
  I have hired several WGU grads, and will again. You made a good choice.
AviationAtom 4y ago
So, former WGU student here, though I hadn't completed my degree. Many WGU students HATE these types of articles, because they undermine the legitimacy of WGU. WGU was not designed for traditional students, it was 100% designed for working professionals, where WGU will only admit you with a reasonable amount of experience in your field. WGU is regionally accredited, not nationally, and it's a non-profit. So it cannot be compared to University of Phoenix, ITT Tech, DeVry, etc. It was founded by a group of governors out west, hence the name. They realized that there were many working adults who possessed a great depth of knowledge, from long working in their fields, yet they had no paper credentials to show for that knowledge. Their model is competency-based, so you must demonstrate you posses knowledge in any given domain. If you can prove you do then you can test out right away, if you fail to then they offer a variety of resources to allow you to get up to par. In many cases classes are tied to obtaining industry certifications. It's not for everyone, but it is a far cry from a "degree mill." Does it really matter if a person that has knowledge got it from sitting in a seat, paying ungodly amounts of tuition, or if they got it from life experience? As long as a bar is set, and you can meet it, then that should be what really matters. Just my personal experience, from having attended the university. Unfortunately life sidetracked my completion, but I hope to return one day soon, and complete my program.
- andi999 4y ago
  Is it accepted overseas? I read most degrees from wgu are not recognized in europe.
  - no_wizard 4y ago
    Don't see how, because the accreditation system is setup as such that they should see them as any other university that is regionally accredited.
    - andi999 4y ago
      https://www.reddit.com/r/WGU/comments/pjisyd/any_idea_why_most_bsc_programs_and_not_recognized/ https://www.reddit.com/r/WGU/comments/pjisyd/any_idea_why_mo... There seems to be some discussion how european country like to have a stronger accreditation, so that is why I am asking what really is the case.
chiefalchemist 4y ago
Does anyone reasonable and with an internet connectt really believe they can get sonething of substance (e.g., CS degree) for relatively nothing ($5k)? That's not how the world works. Anywhere. Anytime. Who was that said there's a sucker born every day?
- triyambakam 4y ago
  So you never learned anything from internet resources?
- zebrahim89 4y ago
  i can think of lots of substantive things I've gotten for relatively nothing. the price tag of something doesn't necessarily equal quality.
- kamranjon 4y ago
  I mean New Mexico now offers free college education with very few restrictions and many European countries offer similar programs, not sure why it would be so unbelievable.
- rybosworld 4y ago
  Georgia Tech has one of the best computer science programs in the U.S. and they offer the Masters program for <$9k.
  - VMtest 4y ago
    anyone knows if the online Master from Georgia Tech is recognized by Germany/Austria? this is to get a visa to work in IT sector in those countries
    - aketchum 4y ago
      It is the same degree as the on campus program.
      - 4y ago
brightball 4y ago
> During my time at WGU, I focused on a single course at a time and made sure to complete it before starting a new one. That sounds like a dream come true honestly.
- xmprt 4y ago
  A big part of education is spacing and repetition so completing a full course quickly before starting the next one doesn't sound like it's very good for learning even if it might speed up the degree.
  - TameAntelope 4y ago
    The idea that college is for meaningful learning died a long time ago. It may have never been true for software engineering.
  - brightball 4y ago
    For me, I like the idea of having time for complete immersion into each subject. I never felt like I had that when juggling multiple classes.
- kyawzazaw 4y ago
  There are some colleges like this although not exactly. https://www.coloradocollege.edu/academics/curriculum/ https://www.coloradocollege.edu/academics/curriculum/ See timeline here: https://www.coloradocollege.edu/academics/curriculum/calendar/calendar-2021-22.html https://www.coloradocollege.edu/academics/curriculum/calenda... for when each "block" (their term for a single course) start and end
  - brightball 4y ago
    I believe Cornell has a program like that as well.
BizarroLand 4y ago
I went to WGU for my BSIT. I didn't learn much there, but the degree and certifications helped my job prospects. Spent about $10,000 going for 3 semesters (already had my AS from a community college), walked out with 13 certifications and a boost in pay from being headhunted within weeks. I've had another job since then and am earning more still. I would say at least for IT degrees WGU is worth it. It gives you the sheet of paper HR needs to let you in through the door for cheap, plus a bunch of certs that helps your resume stand out. Not a bad deal if you have any autodidactive capability.
gizajob 4y ago
hatch_q 4y ago
Ok, you got a degree in 3 months. But, did you actually learn anything? Did courses prepare you for the world outside?
- Spoom 4y ago
  OP is already in the world "outside". That's the point; they're in it for the paper, since the paper unlocks possibilities.
manukerish 4y ago
You can get CS degree level knowledge for free with https://cs1000.vercel.app https://cs1000.vercel.app.
welshwelsh 4y ago
I did the same thing. Got a Bachelors in CS in 1 term at WGU. Very happy with it, got a great job after graduation and I feel very well prepared for it. I know this sounds really sketchy so here are my thoughts. * Most undergraduate-level college courses (from any school) are stupid easy, especially 101-level classes. You could skip every lecture, spend 3 hours studying before the final exam and still pass with a B or better. This is what I did for 2 years at a traditional state school where I studied mechanical engineering. At WGU it is exactly the same, except you don't need to wait until the end of the term to take the exam. You can schedule the final exam on day 1 of the term and then move on to the next course if you pass. * It's not that hard to get through a textbook quickly if you are disciplined. If there are 20 chapters, read 5 per day and you will finish in 4 days. On day 5 wake up early, take a practice test, review the questions you missed and re-read those sections, repeat 3-4 times and you should be scoring 80-90%, that's a pass so schedule the final exam for that evening. After these 5 days of studying you will be better prepared than the average college student, who generally fucks around all term, shows up for lectures but doesn't pay attention, and hardly reads the textbook at all, but somehow still passes. * Lectures and videos are a waste of time, reading is more efficient * It helps massively if you can study full time. I took out loans to pay the rent and tuition and didn't work a side job. I studied 9-5 every day like it's my full time job. I paid back my loans after 1 year of working. * The hardest courses take 10-15 times as long as the easiest ones. Data Structures and Algorithms, Computer Architecture and Discrete Mathematics etc. are the big ones and this model lets you spend more time on that and less time on bullshit. * Controversially, WGU makes sure you learn SQL really, really well and glosses over Linear Algebra. I find my SQL skills to be extremely useful on the job. I've since studied Linear Algebra on my own time, but I haven't found any uses for it outside of my game development hobby. * No, you can't master a subject you spent 1 week studying. But that's true of all undergraduate courses, not just WGU, which is why new grads struggle with basic leetcode questions unless they grind leetcode outside of school. In my opinion the purpose of a bachelor's degree is to teach you the basics and bring you to the point where you can get an entry level job and study on your own, which WGU's BSCS absolutely does do. * Getting a degree in 3 months might seem impressive, but it's not. The average college student might spend 4 years at school, but if you only count the time they are actually studying, it's not going to be more than a couple of months. And when they do study, it's not effective, it's not goal oriented, they study out of obligation and fear of failure which leads to procrastination and burnout and all-nighters before exam day that aren't very productive.
suresk 4y ago
I just graduated from WGU 2 days ago, after almost 20 years in the industry. I didn't rush through it was quickly - I finished in just under a year. I studied finance my first time around in college and have tried to do a CS degree a few times since, but juggling a full-time job and now a family makes that tough. The flexibility the WGU program offered was honestly more important than the raw speed at which I could go through it. Some of it was stuff I knew really well and only spent an hour or two on, some of it was filler (I now have ITIL v4 and Project+ certifications that were annoying to get and mostly useless?), and some of it was new and interesting (Discrete Math, Computer Architecture, etc..). Overall, it didn't feel like markedly different curriculum from the in-person courses I took at other schools. Aside from a few terrible classes (the AI course is just a horrendous waste of time), most of them were decent and I felt like I learned something from them. The overall curriculum is a little odd and probably not ideal for someone who has little programming experience. For example, the very first "scripting and programming" course uses C++ to build a simple command-line application, but then you never do anything with C++ again. What is the point of that? I understand how C++ can be useful in a learning context, but I don't think a brief introduction to it really does any good. Two of the biggest courses are big JavaFX projects, which ughh.. fine, but I think there are probably more useful things to teach. I understand that a CS degree is more about theory than getting job-related skills, but a few of the decisions made serve neither very well. So if I had one knock on the program, it is that someone who comes in with little programming experience is probably going to come out of it without having written much code that resembles what they'd be doing in a job. Overall, it was a really good experience and it feels good to finally finish up after all these years. I am currently applying for the Georgia Tech OMSCS program, which is a common route for WGU graduates. That one is fairly rigorous and cannot be sped through, so looking at several more years for that, but at the end of it all, a BS + MS in Computer Science in around 5 years and under $20k total seems like a decent result?
- triyambakam 4y ago
  Can you share more of your reasoning behind getting the degree after so long in the industry?
  - 4y ago
tristor 4y ago
This article was interesting to me because it helped me learn about WGU. I dropped out of college just one semester prior to graduating (and had a 3.7gpa at the time). I've had nearly two decades of experience in industry, and it'd be great to be able to get a degree at this point in my life just to get the credential to match my work experience. WGU seems like a really reasonable program for someone in my situation, compared to taking time off from work to go back to school or hoping I get famous enough someday to get an honorary degree.
- triyambakam 4y ago
  Also look into TESU
markus_zhang 4y ago
Still sounds a bit lengthy to me. What I would like to have is a topic approach one. It should be fully online with facilities for student communication such as Discord and online assignment/project submission. One example: let's say I want to learn OS. The course chain will look like this: Programming class, Comp arch using C and assembly, Data structure, and then straight into OS. In modern universities you can apply as independent students but the process is often a bit tedious. Also you have to go through a lot of red tapes just to remove some pre-requisite, e.g. as a Math student I don't need Discrete math, and as a Data Engineer I don't need the basic programming class at least, but in reality it's really difficult to get these done easily, if at all. Of course I can just go to say Berkeley and download their course materials and learn for free. I figured I'm not smart/persistent enough to go through it on my own, so paying some $$ to get a proper learning platform is a better option. Really wish universities such as MIT or Berkeley has such options but I know it's too much for them. Once they open the gate there will be too large a demand to handle.
M5x7wI3CmbEem10 4y ago
Would this be appropriate for someone fresh out of high school? The only concern I can think of is the lack of socialization, which is easier to address during high school than university.
- fckgw 4y ago
  WGU caters to working professionals and as such usually requires prior classwork or some sort of verifiable work history.
_caw 4y ago
I just put in a couple hours of studying @ WGU for Discrete Math II last night, and I'm happy that the school exists. I spent months trying to get my brick-and-mortar to allow me to complete my B.S. remotely; I had dropped out after junior year for startup reasons. Long story short, the idea that an adult working full time might want to complete their degree without dropping $65k wasn't acceptable (of course COVID forced the university remote.) Then my partner began a WGU Master's program and told me about it. Although I wasn't able to transfer in most of my courses (older than 5 years), I was able to transfer a chunk of gen-eds. Now I'm slowly but surely working through the degree, diving much deeper into math topics than I ever did before. I have the time to actually understand things instead of passing by the skin of my teeth. I also have the choice to skip a topic entirely if I know its contents. It can be a slog, and there are times where it appears a gargantuan task. But I'm learning, and the challenge of doing it while working full time gives me great confidence. Make sure you match with an excellent mentor to cheer you on while holding you accountable. Now, some things to consider: * I value the friends and shared experience I made @ brick-and-mortar university. This doesn't replicate that at all. * Prices, although relatively low, have risen. * Self-motivation is critical. * No detailed feedback on projects. I appreciate it for what it is: a self-motivated, self-paced escape hatch for those who want to earn a degree, where your experience is valued, and your bank account is respected.
lcfcjs 4y ago
light_hue_1 4y ago
As someone who teachers at a university, the level of courses at WGU is absurdly low. I looked at the algorithms courses, the discrete math courses, and the AI course. These would not be acceptable in any CS department that I know. The material and exams are at the level of a high school education, nothing more. You got a piece of paper. You did not get a CS education. There are bootcamps that are much higher quality than this.
- _caw 4y ago
  Disclaimer: currently enrolled @ WGU. This comment comes off really strongly to me in the direction of gatekeeping. > These would not be acceptable in any CS department that I know. Personally, some of the courses I'm taking now are just as hard as those I took during undergrad at a brick-and-mortar university. I would say that the promised scope & depth of my undergrad courses at my brick-and-mortar university was greater, with interactive lessons, feedback, etc. On the other hand, to learn that breadth of material takes two interested parties. Often I had professors who wanted to research, not teach. Sometimes the course was taught entirely by TAs after hours. Usually the pace was so fast that I never had time to learn one thing before we moved on to the next. There were students who did the bare minimum, while others went beyond. That piece of paper symbolizing their "CS education" means much more to some than others. > You did not get a CS education. Hard to argue since you haven't defined "CS education", but I'll read it as "..the CS education that my university provides." I believe it, and acknowledge that not all CS educations are equal. > There are bootcamps that are much higher quality than this. I think the goals are different. WGU allows me to study at a slow pace, go as deep or as shallow as I please (while passing a minimum bar) and will grant me a B.S. at the end of it. I already have a job; what I'm missing is the degree. Perhaps I wouldn't feel such a strong need to get the degree, if it wasn't a prerequisite to even higher education!
  - google234123 4y ago
    Brick and motor universities vary in quality and I’m not sure where you attend or what level classes you took - intro classes are typically weed out in stem and aren’t very fun. However, I think it’s pretty easy to see that the DS&A classes (not sure why it’s split into two courses, seems like WGU does that for every slightly challenging class) at WGU look completely watered down from what is taught in a single semester at the nearby university of Utah. Just look at this reddit post from students taking this class and you'll learn everything you need to know https://www.reddit.com/r/WGU_CompSci/comments/maty9w/c950_data_structures_and_algorithms_ii_need_help/ https://www.reddit.com/r/WGU_CompSci/comments/maty9w/c950_da... They are talking about learning about hashmaps (how, at this point in their education???) and it looks like the class can be completed by doing a single project. So yes, this is very unimpressive. Example DS&A course at Utah: https://www.cs.utah.edu/~miriah/teaching/cs2420/ https://www.cs.utah.edu/~miriah/teaching/cs2420/ Following Algorithms course: http://theory.cs.utah.edu/fall18/algorithms/ http://theory.cs.utah.edu/fall18/algorithms/ More than half the classes in the CS BS degree at WGU look like filler too: https://www.wgu.edu/content/dam/wgu-65-assets/western-governors/documents/program-guides/information-technology/BSCS.pdf https://www.wgu.edu/content/dam/wgu-65-assets/western-govern...
SXX 4y ago
Do WGU accept international students? I just curious since I have 15+ years experience in programming, but having no degree of any kind does limit job options now when I had to immigrate. Can anyone suggest some other options good to get a degree with reasonable price? I really dont mind studying, but I certainly dont have several years and tons of money to go to traditional university.
frontman1988 4y ago
Degrees are becoming more and more irrelevant with time. Skills eat degrees for lunch in computer science.
nomilk 4y ago
Seems odd that speed limits on learning were(/are) the norm at most top institutions. What purpose do they serve aside from being slightly more administratively convenient.
- betwixthewires 4y ago
  They serve another purpose. Credentials with red tape to get test another aspect of someone's capability: the willingness to tolerate senseless bullshit in order to get ahead. For a lot of jobs that's a requirement, you won't do well at some places and in some fields without it.
  - fellowniusmonk 4y ago
    The ability or willingness to take on loans or proof that you have access to other financial help. Time is money, if they force you to take more time they are increasing the total actual cost of education.
nomilk 4y ago
> I wouldn’t say it was transformative. The bulk of the effort was memorizing things that I normally would have Googled.
likecharges 4y ago
I’m trying to find a tech job after almost a decade of manual labor. After reading this story I thought WGU could be a great, non-traditional fit for me so I started the sign-up process. A few seconds after I filled out the first step of the sign-up (name, phone, email), they called me twice (real people, not automated) and texted me. I’m probably being too selective, but it was an off-putting experience.
- stonogo 4y ago
  "Ineffective communicators" is a real weird selector for the people providing your educational credentials.
  - likecharges 4y ago
    That’s fair. I’m not in any position to judge the quality of the school. I was just surprised that the school called while I was filling out the sign-up form.
  - _tom_ 4y ago
    "Driven by sales, not academic qualifications" is a GREAT metric for people providing your academic credentials. No normal college can afford that many warm bodies calling. That tells you that either their profit margin per student is MUCH higher, or their student volume is way higher (they take everyone). It's a valid red flag.
    - itslennysfault 4y ago
      they're a non-profit
tpoacher 4y ago
Pffft. Big deal. You can buy one online for $100 without ANY classes. You got ripped off.
- bachmitre 4y ago
  Haha, agreed, also, in my 30 years of working in CS at more than a dozen different companies of all sizes in 3 different countries, never ever did anyone ask for my degree.
lifeisstillgood 4y ago
This is great - Incan imagine something like this for ongoing professional development - or like a refresher driving test you take every ten years.
gorkagg10 4y ago
TehShrike 4y ago
I wonder what specific opportunities he felt he was missing out on. I've been working in software for 17 years without a degree and have never noticed the lack of a degree stopping me from anything. I've never had it come up during interviews.
- triyambakam 4y ago
  Thanks for sharing that, as I've been wondering if I would ever run into that (currently at about four YOE as a SWE) without a degree. I find it interesting that there are people who already have a degree in something but still feel bad they don't have a CS degree. I don't have a degree in anything!
- bialpio 4y ago
  As someone already mentioned here, there may be some immigration-related requirements that can be satisfied by this degree? E.g. when immigrating into US, the lawyers had to check for degree equivalency between my 3-year bachelor's degree to check if I satisfy H-1B visa requirements (IIRC the answer was "yes" when they also included the first year of the master's program that I have already completed).
kazinator 4y ago
Cool! If you don't want it any more, I will give you $3500 for it!
billllll 4y ago
I see a good number of commenters mention that they also went through the same program/went through something similar. I was wondering if getting the degree translated into any professional benefits? The conventional wisdom is that degrees don't matter, but the author in this blog post says otherwise and they unfortunately have not written a follow-up. I personally have a degree, so don't have perspective.
- AviationAtom 4y ago
  When it really comes down to it: you applying at the same time, with a degree, against a person without a degree, means you're more likely to get the job. In government you often get higher pay for having a degree, so it ends up being a box that must be checked if you want to advance further up the pay scales.
hnburnsy 4y ago
The inclusion of industry certifications with the degree programs at no extra cost is interesting, do any 'regular' colleges integrate certifications like this? https://www.wgu.edu/online-it-degrees/it-certifications.html https://www.wgu.edu/online-it-degrees/it-certifications.html
chaostheory 4y ago
> They confirmed everything I had read and told me that although they didn’t officially accept foreign students (I’m Canadian), they would try to make an exception. Wait, aren't Canadian universities very affordable? Is the problem lack of university spots for students?
- miguelrochefort 4y ago
  In 2022, the average cost to complete a 4-year bachelor’s degree in Canada (while living at home) is about 50,000 CAD. Personally, the problem was time, not money. I couldn’t find a single university in Canada that would let me complete a bachelor’s degree online in less than 2 years, let alone 3 months. This is despite having 3-4 years of post-secondary education in the field (equivalent of an associate’s degree, plus a semester of university credits). Now that remote learning is ubiquitous due to COVID-19, I suspect there might be more options for Canadians seeking accelerate their education.
angarg12 4y ago
I have a background in academia and extensive experience interviewing for FAANG, particularly at the entry level. For me this article highlights the futility of current higher education institutions. From our experience a degree is a mild indicator of performance when hiring at entry levels. We get some great candidates with no degree, and many poor candidates with degrees. Above entry level, the correlation pretty much disappear. I'm really curios what kind of difficulties OP was facing for not having a title. I don't think we have completely removed a title from our job posting requirements, but it usually uses one of those silly conversions (CS degree or x years of experience). That makes me wonder, what value would Universities provide if a degree wasn't a signifier anymore? what if all tech companies hired purely based on interview performance and ignored titles even for filtering? I imagine a future where all the knowledge and material is open and free on the internet, and University staff acts more as coaches and mentors, helping people who needs it in a 1-1 fashion. One can dream.
- _tom_ 4y ago
  Lots of companies still have degree requirements. Interview performance is about as low a correlation with job performance as having a degree. (i.e. none) https://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/20/business/in-head-hunting-big-data-may-not-be-such-a-big-deal.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/20/business/in-head-hunting-... If we actually had some way of accurately evaluating performance, it would change the industry.
  - betwixthewires 4y ago
    Well, where interview requirements reflect actually doing the job, I'd guess the correlation would be significantly higher, no? If interview requirements don't correlate with job performance, I'd conclude the interview process is flawed. After all, the whole point of an interview is to assess performance capability, if it isn't doing that then you need a new process.
- AviationAtom 4y ago
  Much like view on higher education haven't changed greatly, views on job descriptions haven't either. People will not apply for a job because it wants 10 years of experience for an entry-level job, or some other such nonsense. I have found many employers list a dream sheet, but realistically they are open to accepting candidates with less qualifications, especially when they end up getting very few applicants (due to the hefty qualifications they asked for).
kofejnik 4y ago
Data point of one: WGU's credit transfer appraisers are comically incompetent I wanted to complete a CS degree there, since I already have a lot of credits from elsewhere, which I officially transferred to WGU. But then they told me I can't be in CS because I don't have pre-Calculus completed. WAIT WHAT? Right there on my transcript, there are completed 'MATH 460 Math Modeling' and '696 Applied Math Project' and 'MATH 394 Probability and Statistics', which all obviously cover pre-Calc, but no - the appraisers think I might not be able to handle Calculus I so they won't let me go to CS (but I'm welcome to do some IT course).
- triyambakam 4y ago
  Try TESU
  - theCodeStig 4y ago
    What is TESU?
    - triyambakam 4y ago
      Thomas Edison State University
danbrooks 4y ago
Interesting to see such polarizing opinions on education in the comments. The value of education is a mix of learning, credentials, and socialization - and the experience is different for each student. WGU makes a lot of sense for working professionals.
drbojingle 4y ago
Doubt
xriddle 4y ago
OP is a class act. I reached out to him the first time he posted this and he was really helpful with answering my questions. I applied then and am now one class away from finishing my Masters in Cybersecurity. I have 20 years experience in the field and am in a stable, well paying position that I don't plan to leave. This was a vanity degree for me but I also wanted to learn something in the process. So I took my time an emersed myself in the course material even though I could have probably tested out of most courses within a few days. Like any school, WGU will allow you to get what you want out of it. You want a checkmark? WGU will allow you to can get that cheaper than anywhere else. You want to really learn and get credit for it? Then take your time and you wont be disappointed. Are you done learning after your degree? Nope, but as a lifelong learner my experience at WGU was great and am glad I went for it.
ilovecaching 4y ago
I think a lot of people confuse Computer Science with SWE or something similar. A lot of universities and programs do a terrible job of explaining CS. You will get some CS knowledge working in the field, but its akin to any field where someone can get by learning how to do X without understand the theoretical underpinnings of X. CS is the theory and study of computation. A trained computer scientist should be able to understand computation and information in terms of abstract models, the mathematics behind those models, and reason with those models. CS can be seen as something only tangentially related to physical computers, it is the academic study of problems and problem solving. This is not something you can learn in less than a year of study. Anyone selling you a CS degree without making you take a theory of computation is also really doing you a disservice. A lot of people have a degree in CS these days who really lack the fundamentals of the science portion of CS.
farzher 4y ago
sorry to hear you got scammed out of $5000 /:
alexchantavy 4y ago
I wonder how the author tracked their time with that level of granularity.
- miguelrochefort 4y ago
  I’ve been manually recording every 15-minute increment of my life in Google Calendar for the past 3 years. While studying at WGU, I also tracked 100% of my computer/phone/TV usage with ActivityWatch. I wrote a paper showing that over 80% of my learning sessions could be accurately detected and classified from my computer usage logs: https://miguelrochefort.com/Rochefort_2021_Academic_Time_Tracker.pdf https://miguelrochefort.com/Rochefort_2021_Academic_Time_Tra...
peter303 4y ago
A number of MIT courses were like that. You had to pass six calculus tests per course. If you were exposed to the material before, you could do this in a couple days.
gabrieledarrigo 4y ago
Bah, to be honest this seems a lot like a degree mill. I work as a SWE and I decided to apply yo a Bachelor'degree course in Computer Science at the University of Milan; that took me 4 years to complete. It doesn't matter how well I was prepared in different subjects, since many courses required a lot of study and preparation. And the average time of completion os around 4 years, so...
50208 4y ago
WGU BS / MS Graduate here: I attended 3 other "traditional, B&M" Uni's in years past (~60 credits). I also attended a couple Community Colleges (16 credits). I created a career in IT by getting a job (2000) and working full time over the years. I got certifications on my own that I transferred in for credit with WGU. I have now been teaching full time in an IT program at a community college for 2 years and have also developed and manage 2 different MS level online classes for a traditional B&M university you have definitely heard of. I can tell you, unequivocally, that what I had to do to complete my degrees with WGU was more rigorous than what I am requiring my students to do now (not my choice ... chain of command). The grading was harder at WGU than what I am permitted to do now with my students in the CC and B&M MS classes. I have now been on each side of the "WGU is not legit" argument. Anyone who thinks this is very wrong. No, it's not Stanford or MIT, it's not supposed to be ... though I'm sure grade inflation and special treatment happens at those places. There is no special treatment or grade inflation at WGU. You take a cert exam, take a test, or submit a paper to an unknown grader. You either pass or you don't. Simple as that. If you know your stuff, move on. If you don't ... learn it to move forward. It's meritocracy at its best. That is NOT the traditional University way. I would included the OP in this ... he states in the end of his blog post that "The program is not the most rigorous." How does he know this having not attended other university recently? How does he know this not having developed or taught classes at other universities or colleges. He's right about the clear value that can be attained from combining knowledge, experience and work ethic to a WGU degree. He's wrong about the rigor. IMO: WGU is not the place to LEARN, it's the place you PROVE WHAT YOU KNOW.
TylerH 4y ago
Buying a diploma is not really a bragging point.
- sophacles 4y ago
  What so only people on scholarships get to count their degree?
mastazi 4y ago
I'm in Australia, I got my degree in almost half the time since I already had experience in the field from working as a developer. Some of the fees are per subject, and some per semester. I had to pay the former like everyone else, but saved on the latter due to the fact that I stayed for a shorter time.
b20000 4y ago
you can get a 4 year degree in europe for $500. but, you only have a 0.5% chance of getting through your first year. that is the flip side.
robomartin 4y ago
Something that has always bothered me about STEM degrees in the US is the requirement for about a year of non-STEM coursework as a degree granting requirement. I think this is ridiculous. Sure, yes, general education is important. And this is what secondary education should be for. The idea of consuming a year (or more!) of someone's time while pursuing a STEM degree on such coursework is, in my opinion, deeply misguided. This is particularly true in a systems where a student is paying from $30K to $60K per year for this education. Sorry, but, if I have to spent $50K per year the last thing I want to do is burn it on course work that is utterly irrelevant. Taken a different way, this means that a STEM Bachelors in the US could be completed in three, rather than four years. That is huge. That means higher graduation rates and people available to work faster. That does not mean that nobody would or should take these courses. If someone is interested in sociology, history or political science, by all means, provide the courses as electives --not as graduation requirements. Let's be free market and let the market decide. You can stipulate that a student must take five electives to graduate. These electives are not on forced subjects. You can take more STEM courses or choose to go into non-STEM classes (geography, world history, business, whatever). Yes, this would likely reposition some of the stuff nobody cares about. And that's the right way to do it. If you have to pay back $200K to $300K in student loans, the system should not force you to burn 1/4 of that cash on bullshit no company is ever going to pay you for. I truly think this is one of the great injustices, and maybe even the tyranny, of a system that, in my opinion isn't connected to reality at all. These non-STEM courses are cheap (in terms of the cost of offering them) courses that universities stuff into the student's shopping cart. The profit margin on these is probably outstanding when compared to some of the other subjects (for example, Chemistry requires labs; Robotics requires machine shops, tools, etc.). From a competitive perspective, any nation that can focus their STEM degrees strictly around STEM to graduate people with the same capabilities as the US in 3 years rather than 4 is going to have an advantage over the long run. Not only are out graduates absolutely saddled with ridiculous debt, they have to invest another year or more for the same job-relevant education. Like I said above, no company is going to pay someone for that shit. Sadly, I don't think this will ever change. There is no political value in going after this issue. If politicians can't use something to their benefit, it gets no attention at all.
- 4y ago
brhsagain 4y ago
If you already know how to code and you’ve already been working, what situations do you find yourself in where you need the piece of paper? I’m in the same situation, self taught, dropout, been working for a nearly a decade—except no one has ever given a fuck.
- icelancer 4y ago
  I'm in this position and possibly going to WGU. The answer is: Working government contracts and other stupid legacy fields that care about a degree.
- mixmastamyk 4y ago
  It’s not needed for any job, but when you want to work at a coveted employer, not having one will put you in the no pile.
f7fg_u-_h 4y ago
Has anyone done this kind of program for a Master's in Education? Wondering how fast an M.Ed. can be gotten.
turndown 4y ago
We are all caught between the rock of 'You should get this degree because you are serious about the actual theory of Computer Science' and the hard place of 'the job this degree unlocks justifies whatever it takes to get what you need done.' I enjoy some CS theory(especially theory of computation!) and other nice things but hate school and will never go back. I got my degree in CS for the monetary benefits, not because I was heading in for an enjoyable academic safari. I will also say, as this person appears to be only a bit older than myself(I would say OP is no older 30) it doesn't shock me at all that they could have learned everything a degree would have taught you eventually just by reading things online. Other than some some algorithms(eg flow, more advanced trees) and some discrete math I can believe you'd hit on most of what a CS degree could offer, if you're willing to find it for yourself that is...
AtlasBarfed 4y ago
"On the other hand, a compilers course and a programming languages course would have been welcome additions." ... this is not a CS degree. The author is crazy motivated, but this is more a reflection of the crumbling foundations of higher ed in the US.
- AtlasBarfed 4y ago
  I also don't see: Theory of Computation or any Algorithms course. It looks like someone can come out of this program and not know what big-O is, and what it is of major algorithms in computer science. Sure you can get by day-to-day, but a Computer Science degree should entail: - algorithmic complexity - turing machine vs stack machine vs state diagram - computer organization - programming languages You come out of that with a circuits-to-programming language awareness of how things get translated and executed to the lowest level along with algorithmic complexity and estimation and awareness of "what a computer can calculate". This looks like it falls short, but the devil is in the details.
lcall 4y ago
Fwiw, another accredited online educational program, with interaction with others, is BYU Pathway Worldwide and associated programs. It requires a Church affiliation but not necessarily membership (I think). Tuition is much lower, vastly lower to students in poorer countries; it has accredited bachelors programs (through BYU-Idaho, but all online; like IT, business, others), and is also suitable for those who need to first become qualified for a university (like learning English, which is used in curriculum, and other basic skills), and then provides that university (and then tuition is again lower still, last I checked). I believe it also provides mentor-like contacts who encourage students to not give up. I think it is not self-paced, but has semesters. More info is in Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYU_Pathway_Worldwide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYU_Pathway_Worldwide ...and https://www.byupathway.org/ https://www.byupathway.org/
- Ishmaeli 4y ago
  I have several friends and family members, all active LDS, who have done BYU Pathway, and they all say the same thing: "Wow, is it churchy!" That first semester especially. These people are all very familiar with the various iterations of CES, from early-morning and release-time seminary to the BYU religion curriculum and Institute. So on the one hand they had an idea what they were getting into and even welcomed it somewhat. But none of them expected it to be as heavy-handed as it was. If the religious content feels that overbearing for active, committed Mormons, I don't know that I could in good conscience recommend this route to non-Mormons.
  - lcall 4y ago
    Interesting; thanks. I guess one has to decide for oneself whether it is worth it, and good. :)

dang 4y ago

Discussed at the time: I prepared for a decade to graduate in CS in three months - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25467900 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25467900 - Dec 2020 (374 comments)

syspec 4y ago

>If necessary, many of these shortcomings can be offset by using the 3+ years you’ve saved to do an Online Master of Science in Computer Science (OMSCS) at Georgia Tech (<$10,000). Could someone elaborate on what this part means?

leugim 4y ago

Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25467900 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25467900

rtkwe 4y ago

Some context on WGU > An audit by the Department of Education's Office of Inspector General, released on September 21, 2017, "concluded that Western Governors University did not comply with the institutional eligibility requirement that limits the percentage of regular students who may enroll in correspondence courses" and that "at least 69 of the 102 courses were not designed to offer regular and substantive interaction with an instructor and, therefore, did not meet the regulatory definition of distance education." They later kept their federal loan eligibility but it sounds like it might have been a case where they skated by due to a lack of clear guidance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Governors_University https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Governors_University

adamisom 4y ago
Lack of clear guidance is right. The existing outdated laws or regulations just didn’t make sense for their business model or for the Internet age. WGU is regionally accredited in all regions. Not to say it’s good-quality education; it’s not. But frankly most colleges aren’t and I think it meets the same (low) bar that most colleges do—and does better for job-readiness and cost. I have most of a degree from it. I’m still not sure I’d recommend it to others though. I’m not even 100% sure I’ll finish!—but I’m leaning toward finishing to make it easier to get into OMSCS or similar. It’s not what got me my job and career. But if you don’t already have a degree (I did, psychology) it’s probably worth it if you think checking the box can help your career or even just help you hunt for your first paid job.
- no_wizard 4y ago
  It’s fine education if you make it so. My direct experience is that I can attain the same knowledge (and then some) as I would at a traditional university I had to seek it actively however. I think outside of the most elite schools this holds true no matter what. Most people just go through the course motions and that’s that, even engineering students
- triyambakam 4y ago
  I was in disbelief when I found out that some people are in a dilemma about getting a CS degree or not, when they already have some other degree. And here I am with no degree in anything, working as a SWE. I've gone back and forth about it - mostly I don't care about the fake degree from WGU and similar schools and then to get a degree where I'd actually learn something new (MIT maybe?) it would be a huge time sync, cost and I'm not sure I'd even be accepted.
  - no_wizard 4y ago
    I can tell you from experience that every company, from Meta to Apple to hell, even 90% of startups, will just accept the CS degree as is. I'd say to working professionals (those with a couple years experience in the industry now) its a bigger win because it matters astronomically less where you got your degree than when you are first starting out as an engineer. It keeps the gatekeepers away and checks all the recruitment boxes across the board. Its also a good gateway to get a useful Masters degree, like the two year Computer Science and Engineering degree from Georgia Tech, which if I recall correctly is very cost effective and highly regarded
  - miguelrochefort 4y ago
    My motivations: - Canadians need a bachelor’s degree to work in the USA. - Graduate programs typically require a bachelor’s degree.
    - triyambakam 4y ago
      As far as working in the US, I can understand that. And as for a Master's, I'm not sure I'd ever want that. The Georgia Tech OMCS for example has a good name but I doubt I couldn't learn the same material for free. Will I get left behind in the industry among a sea of Master's and Phds?

pkdpic 4y ago

I went to a bootcamp for 6 months for less than $20,000.

biofox 4y ago
I read all the man pages for $0 /s
- goodpoint 4y ago
  This but without the "/s".

aidenn0 4y ago

When I was in undergrad (20ish years ago) it was absolutely possible for a motivated student to graduate at a highly accelerated rate. I know someone who had approximately 5 semesters worth of classes done at the end of his freshman year, having taken about 40 credits worth of classes each semester (12 credits was considered "full time" and you needed to average slightly more than that per semester to graduate in 4 years in most degrees). He was able to do this because: 1. Only foreign language classes and lab sciences had class-participation requirements 2. All classes published a syllabus so where possible he could start the major projects early 3. Most of the lower-division classes were a joke to a smart and motivated person anyways. 4. He convinced an academic advisor to sign off on it (this was arguably the hardest part).

brimble 4y ago
At a lot of schools, you can take CLEP tests to get out of (especially) 100 and 200 level courses. Take the test, pay a (somewhat lower) rate for the credit without taking the actual class, and it's done. If you're capable of completing 5 semesters worth in 2 semesters, you're probably capable of passing several of those tests with only a little studying over a Summer.
- aidenn0 4y ago
  At this Univiersity, at this time, you could not take CLEP tests for credit in any classes that were in the same school as your major. So e.g. a Physics major (school of science) could not get credit for the e.g. Math and Chemistry (also school of science) requirements without signing up for the actual course. There were other classes without any official CLEP, so the process was to convince a board of professors to orally examine you on a day that they'd rather be with their family on vacation or doing research.
- gravypod 4y ago
  Most colleges are a "scam". When doing my degree I tested out of the maximum number of classes which, in my opinion, is infuriating and a perfect example of how dishonest the industry is. If you know the material you should get the degree. That, in my opinion, is how a merit based education should work. Instead, our system asks: Do you have the support system to and finances to enable you to spend 4 years without earning an income to complete a degree program?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

davelacy 4y ago

Got a degree in clickbait headlines too, apparently :)

VWWHFSfQ 4y ago
what is click bait about it
- RankingMember 4y ago
  Personally, reading that headline, I would think "oh wow, this guy learned enough computer science to get his degree in 3 months, he's either some kind of super genius or has some crazy learning hacks to share", when really he just Game-Genie'd to the end credits as a formality since he already knew computer science and just wanted the piece of paper. An example of a non-clickbait title for this article: "I already knew computer science; here's how I got the piece of paper in 3 months"
  - juanci_to 4y ago
    For me, what he wrote is exactly what I expected from the title. In some universities from where I am there's something known as "rendir libre", which means that you can skip classes but still do the final exam for each subject, so you would be able to achieve something similar to this. I like that kind of system, as I don't like the bureaucracy of the education system getting in the way of someone who has the knowledge, I think it was a nice read and what WGU does is useful for a minority of people.
- gear_envy 4y ago
  “The Curiosity Gap” The title is written in an intentionally vague way to entice a potential viewer into clicking it. If the title was: “I Got a CS Degree in 3 Months for Less Than $5000 from WGU”, that’s not clickbait because it tells a more complete story. (But telling the whole story from the title means people won’t click, so that’s why it’s written like that)

hammock 4y ago

> On my first day, I completed 4 courses in the span of 4 hours. At a traditional school, it would have taken 4 months. It made me realize…I had underestimated how much knowledge I had gained from previous schools, jobs, projects, books, papers, and talks. This passage underscores how, for this guy and whoever he was selling himself to, a CS degree was just a credential. He did not have much intention of actually learning anything. That’s (I believe) fundamentally different than most people who seek college degrees.

bombcar 4y ago
This is way too close to CGNU ... A shady online degree is just four clicks away at CGNU online e-niversity. Most colleges take four years to complete. At CGNU, one year equals one click. https://youtu.be/RFi8aZm3jnQ?t=118 https://youtu.be/RFi8aZm3jnQ?t=118
dqpb 4y ago
> It made me realize…I had underestimated how much knowledge I had gained from previous schools, jobs, projects, books, papers, and talks. > He did not have much intention of actually learning anything. It’s sounds more like you read this paragraph without much intention of actually understanding anything.
Mathnerd314 4y ago
Right, most people are there for the parties and get degrees in underwater basket weaving. But the hard sciences and engineering are usually for the credentials. This is also how the programs are designed - if you fail the course there's no hand holding, you have to do it again or give up the degree. And the support that large universities give for their introductory courses is minimal, so generally your resources consist of the textbook and your lecture notes. The lectures online are just as good if you actually want to learn the material.
- robbyking 4y ago
  Off topic, but where did the "underwater basketweaving" meme (in the traditional sense) come from? My dad used to say that all the time in reference to what he considered frivolous academic pursuits.

b8 4y ago

I thought about going to WGU instead of a community college/transferring to a private/state school to earn my bachelors, but after starting to apply to WGU it literally seemed like a diploma mil to me. There would be WGU recruiters constantly calling me etc. and overall didn't seem legit to me. So, I decided to go to school for 4-6 years instead. I wonder if places like RenTech would hire someone with a degree from rentech. I think that the DoD hires folks with degrees from UoP, so I'm not surprised they would. I saw a few folks on Linkedin work at Amazon with degrees from WGU and on their website they list that a few students got accepted to grad programs to Harvard etc. [1]. https://www.uopeople.edu/ https://www.uopeople.edu/ WGU reminds me of the uopeople which is in the process of earning regional accreditation. 1. https://www.wgu.edu/alumni/career-support/education-and-professional-paths.html https://www.wgu.edu/alumni/career-support/education-and-prof...

csa 4y ago
> I think that the DoD hires folks with degrees from UoP Most federal government jobs that require a degree only require one from an accredited university. The quality of the degree is not relevant for any but the most sought after positions (e.g., certain state department jobs, federal judge clerkships, etc.). I think some military folks and some GS folks who want to move up to higher jobs but are prevented by the degree requirement often go to places like WGU. Same holds for masters and doctorate degrees.
imwillofficial 4y ago
I’m a student of WGU, and tried UoP, not the same whatsoever. UoP was garbage. Flagged me for fraud on my first test. WGU is what it says it is. Online school with no breaks designed for low friction at the cost of interaction.
no_wizard 4y ago
It really isn't, they hold regional accreditation which, while debatable in total, is much harder to get than national accreditation, because the audit is considered to be much more strict. What WGU is though, is mostly self guided learning, you don't have a traditional professor, you have advisors and pooled resources and group study to drive learning and for asking questions. It does work, if you're a very motivated person and learn well without professor / teacher guidance like you would get at a traditional state school. Is it perfect? No, its definitely not, but its not a diploma mill, and I'd argue its of higher quality than University Of Phoenix and the like. It's not even structured as a for-profit enterprise. WGU filled the gap as a working professional. They're extremely affordable too. Would I advise someone who say, is just graduating high school and can get into a state school or good college with scholarships to pivot over to WGU? No, I wouldn't, but they wouldn't benefit from WGU the same way either at that stage of life IMO.

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richardwhiuk 4y ago

Degrees are only worth anything with the backing of a good university. This course isn't accredited. Additionally, he transferred in a bunch of credit from elsewhere, and had watched multiple MIT lectures, so it's hardly 3 months of effort.

print_goto_ten 4y ago
>It’s accredited. Their programs are accredited by the Northwest Commission on Colleges and Universities (NWCCU), the same accreditation body used by the University of Washington (#24) and the University of Oregon (#94).

imwillofficial 4y ago

Going to WGU now, it is exactly as advertised. Low friction, decent quality education at a low price.

splitstud 4y ago
I have hired several WGU grads, and will again. You made a good choice.

AviationAtom 4y ago

So, former WGU student here, though I hadn't completed my degree. Many WGU students HATE these types of articles, because they undermine the legitimacy of WGU. WGU was not designed for traditional students, it was 100% designed for working professionals, where WGU will only admit you with a reasonable amount of experience in your field. WGU is regionally accredited, not nationally, and it's a non-profit. So it cannot be compared to University of Phoenix, ITT Tech, DeVry, etc. It was founded by a group of governors out west, hence the name. They realized that there were many working adults who possessed a great depth of knowledge, from long working in their fields, yet they had no paper credentials to show for that knowledge. Their model is competency-based, so you must demonstrate you posses knowledge in any given domain. If you can prove you do then you can test out right away, if you fail to then they offer a variety of resources to allow you to get up to par. In many cases classes are tied to obtaining industry certifications. It's not for everyone, but it is a far cry from a "degree mill." Does it really matter if a person that has knowledge got it from sitting in a seat, paying ungodly amounts of tuition, or if they got it from life experience? As long as a bar is set, and you can meet it, then that should be what really matters. Just my personal experience, from having attended the university. Unfortunately life sidetracked my completion, but I hope to return one day soon, and complete my program.

andi999 4y ago
Is it accepted overseas? I read most degrees from wgu are not recognized in europe.
- no_wizard 4y ago
  Don't see how, because the accreditation system is setup as such that they should see them as any other university that is regionally accredited.
  - andi999 4y ago
    https://www.reddit.com/r/WGU/comments/pjisyd/any_idea_why_most_bsc_programs_and_not_recognized/ https://www.reddit.com/r/WGU/comments/pjisyd/any_idea_why_mo... There seems to be some discussion how european country like to have a stronger accreditation, so that is why I am asking what really is the case.

chiefalchemist 4y ago

Does anyone reasonable and with an internet connectt really believe they can get sonething of substance (e.g., CS degree) for relatively nothing ($5k)? That's not how the world works. Anywhere. Anytime. Who was that said there's a sucker born every day?

triyambakam 4y ago
So you never learned anything from internet resources?
zebrahim89 4y ago
i can think of lots of substantive things I've gotten for relatively nothing. the price tag of something doesn't necessarily equal quality.
kamranjon 4y ago
I mean New Mexico now offers free college education with very few restrictions and many European countries offer similar programs, not sure why it would be so unbelievable.
rybosworld 4y ago
Georgia Tech has one of the best computer science programs in the U.S. and they offer the Masters program for <$9k.
- VMtest 4y ago
  anyone knows if the online Master from Georgia Tech is recognized by Germany/Austria? this is to get a visa to work in IT sector in those countries
  - aketchum 4y ago
    It is the same degree as the on campus program.
    - 4y ago

brightball 4y ago

> During my time at WGU, I focused on a single course at a time and made sure to complete it before starting a new one. That sounds like a dream come true honestly.

xmprt 4y ago
A big part of education is spacing and repetition so completing a full course quickly before starting the next one doesn't sound like it's very good for learning even if it might speed up the degree.
- TameAntelope 4y ago
  The idea that college is for meaningful learning died a long time ago. It may have never been true for software engineering.
- brightball 4y ago
  For me, I like the idea of having time for complete immersion into each subject. I never felt like I had that when juggling multiple classes.
kyawzazaw 4y ago
There are some colleges like this although not exactly. https://www.coloradocollege.edu/academics/curriculum/ https://www.coloradocollege.edu/academics/curriculum/ See timeline here: https://www.coloradocollege.edu/academics/curriculum/calendar/calendar-2021-22.html https://www.coloradocollege.edu/academics/curriculum/calenda... for when each "block" (their term for a single course) start and end
- brightball 4y ago
  I believe Cornell has a program like that as well.

BizarroLand 4y ago

I went to WGU for my BSIT. I didn't learn much there, but the degree and certifications helped my job prospects. Spent about $10,000 going for 3 semesters (already had my AS from a community college), walked out with 13 certifications and a boost in pay from being headhunted within weeks. I've had another job since then and am earning more still. I would say at least for IT degrees WGU is worth it. It gives you the sheet of paper HR needs to let you in through the door for cheap, plus a bunch of certs that helps your resume stand out. Not a bad deal if you have any autodidactive capability.

gizajob 4y ago

hatch_q 4y ago

Ok, you got a degree in 3 months. But, did you actually learn anything? Did courses prepare you for the world outside?

Spoom 4y ago
OP is already in the world "outside". That's the point; they're in it for the paper, since the paper unlocks possibilities.

manukerish 4y ago

You can get CS degree level knowledge for free with https://cs1000.vercel.app https://cs1000.vercel.app.

welshwelsh 4y ago

I did the same thing. Got a Bachelors in CS in 1 term at WGU. Very happy with it, got a great job after graduation and I feel very well prepared for it. I know this sounds really sketchy so here are my thoughts. * Most undergraduate-level college courses (from any school) are stupid easy, especially 101-level classes. You could skip every lecture, spend 3 hours studying before the final exam and still pass with a B or better. This is what I did for 2 years at a traditional state school where I studied mechanical engineering. At WGU it is exactly the same, except you don't need to wait until the end of the term to take the exam. You can schedule the final exam on day 1 of the term and then move on to the next course if you pass. * It's not that hard to get through a textbook quickly if you are disciplined. If there are 20 chapters, read 5 per day and you will finish in 4 days. On day 5 wake up early, take a practice test, review the questions you missed and re-read those sections, repeat 3-4 times and you should be scoring 80-90%, that's a pass so schedule the final exam for that evening. After these 5 days of studying you will be better prepared than the average college student, who generally fucks around all term, shows up for lectures but doesn't pay attention, and hardly reads the textbook at all, but somehow still passes. * Lectures and videos are a waste of time, reading is more efficient * It helps massively if you can study full time. I took out loans to pay the rent and tuition and didn't work a side job. I studied 9-5 every day like it's my full time job. I paid back my loans after 1 year of working. * The hardest courses take 10-15 times as long as the easiest ones. Data Structures and Algorithms, Computer Architecture and Discrete Mathematics etc. are the big ones and this model lets you spend more time on that and less time on bullshit. * Controversially, WGU makes sure you learn SQL really, really well and glosses over Linear Algebra. I find my SQL skills to be extremely useful on the job. I've since studied Linear Algebra on my own time, but I haven't found any uses for it outside of my game development hobby. * No, you can't master a subject you spent 1 week studying. But that's true of all undergraduate courses, not just WGU, which is why new grads struggle with basic leetcode questions unless they grind leetcode outside of school. In my opinion the purpose of a bachelor's degree is to teach you the basics and bring you to the point where you can get an entry level job and study on your own, which WGU's BSCS absolutely does do. * Getting a degree in 3 months might seem impressive, but it's not. The average college student might spend 4 years at school, but if you only count the time they are actually studying, it's not going to be more than a couple of months. And when they do study, it's not effective, it's not goal oriented, they study out of obligation and fear of failure which leads to procrastination and burnout and all-nighters before exam day that aren't very productive.

suresk 4y ago

I just graduated from WGU 2 days ago, after almost 20 years in the industry. I didn't rush through it was quickly - I finished in just under a year. I studied finance my first time around in college and have tried to do a CS degree a few times since, but juggling a full-time job and now a family makes that tough. The flexibility the WGU program offered was honestly more important than the raw speed at which I could go through it. Some of it was stuff I knew really well and only spent an hour or two on, some of it was filler (I now have ITIL v4 and Project+ certifications that were annoying to get and mostly useless?), and some of it was new and interesting (Discrete Math, Computer Architecture, etc..). Overall, it didn't feel like markedly different curriculum from the in-person courses I took at other schools. Aside from a few terrible classes (the AI course is just a horrendous waste of time), most of them were decent and I felt like I learned something from them. The overall curriculum is a little odd and probably not ideal for someone who has little programming experience. For example, the very first "scripting and programming" course uses C++ to build a simple command-line application, but then you never do anything with C++ again. What is the point of that? I understand how C++ can be useful in a learning context, but I don't think a brief introduction to it really does any good. Two of the biggest courses are big JavaFX projects, which ughh.. fine, but I think there are probably more useful things to teach. I understand that a CS degree is more about theory than getting job-related skills, but a few of the decisions made serve neither very well. So if I had one knock on the program, it is that someone who comes in with little programming experience is probably going to come out of it without having written much code that resembles what they'd be doing in a job. Overall, it was a really good experience and it feels good to finally finish up after all these years. I am currently applying for the Georgia Tech OMSCS program, which is a common route for WGU graduates. That one is fairly rigorous and cannot be sped through, so looking at several more years for that, but at the end of it all, a BS + MS in Computer Science in around 5 years and under $20k total seems like a decent result?

triyambakam 4y ago
Can you share more of your reasoning behind getting the degree after so long in the industry?
- 4y ago

tristor 4y ago

This article was interesting to me because it helped me learn about WGU. I dropped out of college just one semester prior to graduating (and had a 3.7gpa at the time). I've had nearly two decades of experience in industry, and it'd be great to be able to get a degree at this point in my life just to get the credential to match my work experience. WGU seems like a really reasonable program for someone in my situation, compared to taking time off from work to go back to school or hoping I get famous enough someday to get an honorary degree.

triyambakam 4y ago
Also look into TESU

markus_zhang 4y ago

Still sounds a bit lengthy to me. What I would like to have is a topic approach one. It should be fully online with facilities for student communication such as Discord and online assignment/project submission. One example: let's say I want to learn OS. The course chain will look like this: Programming class, Comp arch using C and assembly, Data structure, and then straight into OS. In modern universities you can apply as independent students but the process is often a bit tedious. Also you have to go through a lot of red tapes just to remove some pre-requisite, e.g. as a Math student I don't need Discrete math, and as a Data Engineer I don't need the basic programming class at least, but in reality it's really difficult to get these done easily, if at all. Of course I can just go to say Berkeley and download their course materials and learn for free. I figured I'm not smart/persistent enough to go through it on my own, so paying some $$ to get a proper learning platform is a better option. Really wish universities such as MIT or Berkeley has such options but I know it's too much for them. Once they open the gate there will be too large a demand to handle.

M5x7wI3CmbEem10 4y ago

Would this be appropriate for someone fresh out of high school? The only concern I can think of is the lack of socialization, which is easier to address during high school than university.

fckgw 4y ago
WGU caters to working professionals and as such usually requires prior classwork or some sort of verifiable work history.

_caw 4y ago

I just put in a couple hours of studying @ WGU for Discrete Math II last night, and I'm happy that the school exists. I spent months trying to get my brick-and-mortar to allow me to complete my B.S. remotely; I had dropped out after junior year for startup reasons. Long story short, the idea that an adult working full time might want to complete their degree without dropping $65k wasn't acceptable (of course COVID forced the university remote.) Then my partner began a WGU Master's program and told me about it. Although I wasn't able to transfer in most of my courses (older than 5 years), I was able to transfer a chunk of gen-eds. Now I'm slowly but surely working through the degree, diving much deeper into math topics than I ever did before. I have the time to actually understand things instead of passing by the skin of my teeth. I also have the choice to skip a topic entirely if I know its contents. It can be a slog, and there are times where it appears a gargantuan task. But I'm learning, and the challenge of doing it while working full time gives me great confidence. Make sure you match with an excellent mentor to cheer you on while holding you accountable. Now, some things to consider: * I value the friends and shared experience I made @ brick-and-mortar university. This doesn't replicate that at all. * Prices, although relatively low, have risen. * Self-motivation is critical. * No detailed feedback on projects. I appreciate it for what it is: a self-motivated, self-paced escape hatch for those who want to earn a degree, where your experience is valued, and your bank account is respected.

lcfcjs 4y ago

light_hue_1 4y ago

As someone who teachers at a university, the level of courses at WGU is absurdly low. I looked at the algorithms courses, the discrete math courses, and the AI course. These would not be acceptable in any CS department that I know. The material and exams are at the level of a high school education, nothing more. You got a piece of paper. You did not get a CS education. There are bootcamps that are much higher quality than this.

_caw 4y ago
Disclaimer: currently enrolled @ WGU. This comment comes off really strongly to me in the direction of gatekeeping. > These would not be acceptable in any CS department that I know. Personally, some of the courses I'm taking now are just as hard as those I took during undergrad at a brick-and-mortar university. I would say that the promised scope & depth of my undergrad courses at my brick-and-mortar university was greater, with interactive lessons, feedback, etc. On the other hand, to learn that breadth of material takes two interested parties. Often I had professors who wanted to research, not teach. Sometimes the course was taught entirely by TAs after hours. Usually the pace was so fast that I never had time to learn one thing before we moved on to the next. There were students who did the bare minimum, while others went beyond. That piece of paper symbolizing their "CS education" means much more to some than others. > You did not get a CS education. Hard to argue since you haven't defined "CS education", but I'll read it as "..the CS education that my university provides." I believe it, and acknowledge that not all CS educations are equal. > There are bootcamps that are much higher quality than this. I think the goals are different. WGU allows me to study at a slow pace, go as deep or as shallow as I please (while passing a minimum bar) and will grant me a B.S. at the end of it. I already have a job; what I'm missing is the degree. Perhaps I wouldn't feel such a strong need to get the degree, if it wasn't a prerequisite to even higher education!
- google234123 4y ago
  Brick and motor universities vary in quality and I’m not sure where you attend or what level classes you took - intro classes are typically weed out in stem and aren’t very fun. However, I think it’s pretty easy to see that the DS&A classes (not sure why it’s split into two courses, seems like WGU does that for every slightly challenging class) at WGU look completely watered down from what is taught in a single semester at the nearby university of Utah. Just look at this reddit post from students taking this class and you'll learn everything you need to know https://www.reddit.com/r/WGU_CompSci/comments/maty9w/c950_data_structures_and_algorithms_ii_need_help/ https://www.reddit.com/r/WGU_CompSci/comments/maty9w/c950_da... They are talking about learning about hashmaps (how, at this point in their education???) and it looks like the class can be completed by doing a single project. So yes, this is very unimpressive. Example DS&A course at Utah: https://www.cs.utah.edu/~miriah/teaching/cs2420/ https://www.cs.utah.edu/~miriah/teaching/cs2420/ Following Algorithms course: http://theory.cs.utah.edu/fall18/algorithms/ http://theory.cs.utah.edu/fall18/algorithms/ More than half the classes in the CS BS degree at WGU look like filler too: https://www.wgu.edu/content/dam/wgu-65-assets/western-governors/documents/program-guides/information-technology/BSCS.pdf https://www.wgu.edu/content/dam/wgu-65-assets/western-govern...

SXX 4y ago

Do WGU accept international students? I just curious since I have 15+ years experience in programming, but having no degree of any kind does limit job options now when I had to immigrate. Can anyone suggest some other options good to get a degree with reasonable price? I really dont mind studying, but I certainly dont have several years and tons of money to go to traditional university.

frontman1988 4y ago

Degrees are becoming more and more irrelevant with time. Skills eat degrees for lunch in computer science.

nomilk 4y ago

Seems odd that speed limits on learning were(/are) the norm at most top institutions. What purpose do they serve aside from being slightly more administratively convenient.

betwixthewires 4y ago
They serve another purpose. Credentials with red tape to get test another aspect of someone's capability: the willingness to tolerate senseless bullshit in order to get ahead. For a lot of jobs that's a requirement, you won't do well at some places and in some fields without it.
- fellowniusmonk 4y ago
  The ability or willingness to take on loans or proof that you have access to other financial help. Time is money, if they force you to take more time they are increasing the total actual cost of education.

nomilk 4y ago

> I wouldn’t say it was transformative. The bulk of the effort was memorizing things that I normally would have Googled.

likecharges 4y ago

I’m trying to find a tech job after almost a decade of manual labor. After reading this story I thought WGU could be a great, non-traditional fit for me so I started the sign-up process. A few seconds after I filled out the first step of the sign-up (name, phone, email), they called me twice (real people, not automated) and texted me. I’m probably being too selective, but it was an off-putting experience.

stonogo 4y ago
"Ineffective communicators" is a real weird selector for the people providing your educational credentials.
- likecharges 4y ago
  That’s fair. I’m not in any position to judge the quality of the school. I was just surprised that the school called while I was filling out the sign-up form.
- _tom_ 4y ago
  "Driven by sales, not academic qualifications" is a GREAT metric for people providing your academic credentials. No normal college can afford that many warm bodies calling. That tells you that either their profit margin per student is MUCH higher, or their student volume is way higher (they take everyone). It's a valid red flag.
  - itslennysfault 4y ago
    they're a non-profit

tpoacher 4y ago

Pffft. Big deal. You can buy one online for $100 without ANY classes. You got ripped off.

bachmitre 4y ago
Haha, agreed, also, in my 30 years of working in CS at more than a dozen different companies of all sizes in 3 different countries, never ever did anyone ask for my degree.

lifeisstillgood 4y ago

This is great - Incan imagine something like this for ongoing professional development - or like a refresher driving test you take every ten years.

gorkagg10 4y ago

TehShrike 4y ago

I wonder what specific opportunities he felt he was missing out on. I've been working in software for 17 years without a degree and have never noticed the lack of a degree stopping me from anything. I've never had it come up during interviews.

triyambakam 4y ago
Thanks for sharing that, as I've been wondering if I would ever run into that (currently at about four YOE as a SWE) without a degree. I find it interesting that there are people who already have a degree in something but still feel bad they don't have a CS degree. I don't have a degree in anything!
bialpio 4y ago
As someone already mentioned here, there may be some immigration-related requirements that can be satisfied by this degree? E.g. when immigrating into US, the lawyers had to check for degree equivalency between my 3-year bachelor's degree to check if I satisfy H-1B visa requirements (IIRC the answer was "yes" when they also included the first year of the master's program that I have already completed).

kazinator 4y ago

Cool! If you don't want it any more, I will give you $3500 for it!

billllll 4y ago

I see a good number of commenters mention that they also went through the same program/went through something similar. I was wondering if getting the degree translated into any professional benefits? The conventional wisdom is that degrees don't matter, but the author in this blog post says otherwise and they unfortunately have not written a follow-up. I personally have a degree, so don't have perspective.

AviationAtom 4y ago
When it really comes down to it: you applying at the same time, with a degree, against a person without a degree, means you're more likely to get the job. In government you often get higher pay for having a degree, so it ends up being a box that must be checked if you want to advance further up the pay scales.

hnburnsy 4y ago

The inclusion of industry certifications with the degree programs at no extra cost is interesting, do any 'regular' colleges integrate certifications like this? https://www.wgu.edu/online-it-degrees/it-certifications.html https://www.wgu.edu/online-it-degrees/it-certifications.html

chaostheory 4y ago

> They confirmed everything I had read and told me that although they didn’t officially accept foreign students (I’m Canadian), they would try to make an exception. Wait, aren't Canadian universities very affordable? Is the problem lack of university spots for students?

miguelrochefort 4y ago
In 2022, the average cost to complete a 4-year bachelor’s degree in Canada (while living at home) is about 50,000 CAD. Personally, the problem was time, not money. I couldn’t find a single university in Canada that would let me complete a bachelor’s degree online in less than 2 years, let alone 3 months. This is despite having 3-4 years of post-secondary education in the field (equivalent of an associate’s degree, plus a semester of university credits). Now that remote learning is ubiquitous due to COVID-19, I suspect there might be more options for Canadians seeking accelerate their education.

angarg12 4y ago

I have a background in academia and extensive experience interviewing for FAANG, particularly at the entry level. For me this article highlights the futility of current higher education institutions. From our experience a degree is a mild indicator of performance when hiring at entry levels. We get some great candidates with no degree, and many poor candidates with degrees. Above entry level, the correlation pretty much disappear. I'm really curios what kind of difficulties OP was facing for not having a title. I don't think we have completely removed a title from our job posting requirements, but it usually uses one of those silly conversions (CS degree or x years of experience). That makes me wonder, what value would Universities provide if a degree wasn't a signifier anymore? what if all tech companies hired purely based on interview performance and ignored titles even for filtering? I imagine a future where all the knowledge and material is open and free on the internet, and University staff acts more as coaches and mentors, helping people who needs it in a 1-1 fashion. One can dream.

_tom_ 4y ago
Lots of companies still have degree requirements. Interview performance is about as low a correlation with job performance as having a degree. (i.e. none) https://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/20/business/in-head-hunting-big-data-may-not-be-such-a-big-deal.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/20/business/in-head-hunting-... If we actually had some way of accurately evaluating performance, it would change the industry.
- betwixthewires 4y ago
  Well, where interview requirements reflect actually doing the job, I'd guess the correlation would be significantly higher, no? If interview requirements don't correlate with job performance, I'd conclude the interview process is flawed. After all, the whole point of an interview is to assess performance capability, if it isn't doing that then you need a new process.
AviationAtom 4y ago
Much like view on higher education haven't changed greatly, views on job descriptions haven't either. People will not apply for a job because it wants 10 years of experience for an entry-level job, or some other such nonsense. I have found many employers list a dream sheet, but realistically they are open to accepting candidates with less qualifications, especially when they end up getting very few applicants (due to the hefty qualifications they asked for).

kofejnik 4y ago

Data point of one: WGU's credit transfer appraisers are comically incompetent I wanted to complete a CS degree there, since I already have a lot of credits from elsewhere, which I officially transferred to WGU. But then they told me I can't be in CS because I don't have pre-Calculus completed. WAIT WHAT? Right there on my transcript, there are completed 'MATH 460 Math Modeling' and '696 Applied Math Project' and 'MATH 394 Probability and Statistics', which all obviously cover pre-Calc, but no - the appraisers think I might not be able to handle Calculus I so they won't let me go to CS (but I'm welcome to do some IT course).

triyambakam 4y ago
Try TESU
- theCodeStig 4y ago
  What is TESU?
  - triyambakam 4y ago
    Thomas Edison State University

danbrooks 4y ago

Interesting to see such polarizing opinions on education in the comments. The value of education is a mix of learning, credentials, and socialization - and the experience is different for each student. WGU makes a lot of sense for working professionals.

drbojingle 4y ago

Doubt

xriddle 4y ago

OP is a class act. I reached out to him the first time he posted this and he was really helpful with answering my questions. I applied then and am now one class away from finishing my Masters in Cybersecurity. I have 20 years experience in the field and am in a stable, well paying position that I don't plan to leave. This was a vanity degree for me but I also wanted to learn something in the process. So I took my time an emersed myself in the course material even though I could have probably tested out of most courses within a few days. Like any school, WGU will allow you to get what you want out of it. You want a checkmark? WGU will allow you to can get that cheaper than anywhere else. You want to really learn and get credit for it? Then take your time and you wont be disappointed. Are you done learning after your degree? Nope, but as a lifelong learner my experience at WGU was great and am glad I went for it.

ilovecaching 4y ago

I think a lot of people confuse Computer Science with SWE or something similar. A lot of universities and programs do a terrible job of explaining CS. You will get some CS knowledge working in the field, but its akin to any field where someone can get by learning how to do X without understand the theoretical underpinnings of X. CS is the theory and study of computation. A trained computer scientist should be able to understand computation and information in terms of abstract models, the mathematics behind those models, and reason with those models. CS can be seen as something only tangentially related to physical computers, it is the academic study of problems and problem solving. This is not something you can learn in less than a year of study. Anyone selling you a CS degree without making you take a theory of computation is also really doing you a disservice. A lot of people have a degree in CS these days who really lack the fundamentals of the science portion of CS.

farzher 4y ago

sorry to hear you got scammed out of $5000 /:

alexchantavy 4y ago

I wonder how the author tracked their time with that level of granularity.

miguelrochefort 4y ago
I’ve been manually recording every 15-minute increment of my life in Google Calendar for the past 3 years. While studying at WGU, I also tracked 100% of my computer/phone/TV usage with ActivityWatch. I wrote a paper showing that over 80% of my learning sessions could be accurately detected and classified from my computer usage logs: https://miguelrochefort.com/Rochefort_2021_Academic_Time_Tracker.pdf https://miguelrochefort.com/Rochefort_2021_Academic_Time_Tra...

peter303 4y ago

A number of MIT courses were like that. You had to pass six calculus tests per course. If you were exposed to the material before, you could do this in a couple days.

gabrieledarrigo 4y ago

Bah, to be honest this seems a lot like a degree mill. I work as a SWE and I decided to apply yo a Bachelor'degree course in Computer Science at the University of Milan; that took me 4 years to complete. It doesn't matter how well I was prepared in different subjects, since many courses required a lot of study and preparation. And the average time of completion os around 4 years, so...

50208 4y ago

WGU BS / MS Graduate here: I attended 3 other "traditional, B&M" Uni's in years past (~60 credits). I also attended a couple Community Colleges (16 credits). I created a career in IT by getting a job (2000) and working full time over the years. I got certifications on my own that I transferred in for credit with WGU. I have now been teaching full time in an IT program at a community college for 2 years and have also developed and manage 2 different MS level online classes for a traditional B&M university you have definitely heard of. I can tell you, unequivocally, that what I had to do to complete my degrees with WGU was more rigorous than what I am requiring my students to do now (not my choice ... chain of command). The grading was harder at WGU than what I am permitted to do now with my students in the CC and B&M MS classes. I have now been on each side of the "WGU is not legit" argument. Anyone who thinks this is very wrong. No, it's not Stanford or MIT, it's not supposed to be ... though I'm sure grade inflation and special treatment happens at those places. There is no special treatment or grade inflation at WGU. You take a cert exam, take a test, or submit a paper to an unknown grader. You either pass or you don't. Simple as that. If you know your stuff, move on. If you don't ... learn it to move forward. It's meritocracy at its best. That is NOT the traditional University way. I would included the OP in this ... he states in the end of his blog post that "The program is not the most rigorous." How does he know this having not attended other university recently? How does he know this not having developed or taught classes at other universities or colleges. He's right about the clear value that can be attained from combining knowledge, experience and work ethic to a WGU degree. He's wrong about the rigor. IMO: WGU is not the place to LEARN, it's the place you PROVE WHAT YOU KNOW.

TylerH 4y ago

Buying a diploma is not really a bragging point.

sophacles 4y ago
What so only people on scholarships get to count their degree?

mastazi 4y ago

I'm in Australia, I got my degree in almost half the time since I already had experience in the field from working as a developer. Some of the fees are per subject, and some per semester. I had to pay the former like everyone else, but saved on the latter due to the fact that I stayed for a shorter time.

b20000 4y ago

you can get a 4 year degree in europe for $500. but, you only have a 0.5% chance of getting through your first year. that is the flip side.

robomartin 4y ago

Something that has always bothered me about STEM degrees in the US is the requirement for about a year of non-STEM coursework as a degree granting requirement. I think this is ridiculous. Sure, yes, general education is important. And this is what secondary education should be for. The idea of consuming a year (or more!) of someone's time while pursuing a STEM degree on such coursework is, in my opinion, deeply misguided. This is particularly true in a systems where a student is paying from $30K to $60K per year for this education. Sorry, but, if I have to spent $50K per year the last thing I want to do is burn it on course work that is utterly irrelevant. Taken a different way, this means that a STEM Bachelors in the US could be completed in three, rather than four years. That is huge. That means higher graduation rates and people available to work faster. That does not mean that nobody would or should take these courses. If someone is interested in sociology, history or political science, by all means, provide the courses as electives --not as graduation requirements. Let's be free market and let the market decide. You can stipulate that a student must take five electives to graduate. These electives are not on forced subjects. You can take more STEM courses or choose to go into non-STEM classes (geography, world history, business, whatever). Yes, this would likely reposition some of the stuff nobody cares about. And that's the right way to do it. If you have to pay back $200K to $300K in student loans, the system should not force you to burn 1/4 of that cash on bullshit no company is ever going to pay you for. I truly think this is one of the great injustices, and maybe even the tyranny, of a system that, in my opinion isn't connected to reality at all. These non-STEM courses are cheap (in terms of the cost of offering them) courses that universities stuff into the student's shopping cart. The profit margin on these is probably outstanding when compared to some of the other subjects (for example, Chemistry requires labs; Robotics requires machine shops, tools, etc.). From a competitive perspective, any nation that can focus their STEM degrees strictly around STEM to graduate people with the same capabilities as the US in 3 years rather than 4 is going to have an advantage over the long run. Not only are out graduates absolutely saddled with ridiculous debt, they have to invest another year or more for the same job-relevant education. Like I said above, no company is going to pay someone for that shit. Sadly, I don't think this will ever change. There is no political value in going after this issue. If politicians can't use something to their benefit, it gets no attention at all.

4y ago

brhsagain 4y ago

If you already know how to code and you’ve already been working, what situations do you find yourself in where you need the piece of paper? I’m in the same situation, self taught, dropout, been working for a nearly a decade—except no one has ever given a fuck.

icelancer 4y ago
I'm in this position and possibly going to WGU. The answer is: Working government contracts and other stupid legacy fields that care about a degree.
mixmastamyk 4y ago
It’s not needed for any job, but when you want to work at a coveted employer, not having one will put you in the no pile.

f7fg_u-_h 4y ago

Has anyone done this kind of program for a Master's in Education? Wondering how fast an M.Ed. can be gotten.

turndown 4y ago

We are all caught between the rock of 'You should get this degree because you are serious about the actual theory of Computer Science' and the hard place of 'the job this degree unlocks justifies whatever it takes to get what you need done.' I enjoy some CS theory(especially theory of computation!) and other nice things but hate school and will never go back. I got my degree in CS for the monetary benefits, not because I was heading in for an enjoyable academic safari. I will also say, as this person appears to be only a bit older than myself(I would say OP is no older 30) it doesn't shock me at all that they could have learned everything a degree would have taught you eventually just by reading things online. Other than some some algorithms(eg flow, more advanced trees) and some discrete math I can believe you'd hit on most of what a CS degree could offer, if you're willing to find it for yourself that is...

AtlasBarfed 4y ago

"On the other hand, a compilers course and a programming languages course would have been welcome additions." ... this is not a CS degree. The author is crazy motivated, but this is more a reflection of the crumbling foundations of higher ed in the US.

AtlasBarfed 4y ago
I also don't see: Theory of Computation or any Algorithms course. It looks like someone can come out of this program and not know what big-O is, and what it is of major algorithms in computer science. Sure you can get by day-to-day, but a Computer Science degree should entail: - algorithmic complexity - turing machine vs stack machine vs state diagram - computer organization - programming languages You come out of that with a circuits-to-programming language awareness of how things get translated and executed to the lowest level along with algorithmic complexity and estimation and awareness of "what a computer can calculate". This looks like it falls short, but the devil is in the details.

lcall 4y ago

Fwiw, another accredited online educational program, with interaction with others, is BYU Pathway Worldwide and associated programs. It requires a Church affiliation but not necessarily membership (I think). Tuition is much lower, vastly lower to students in poorer countries; it has accredited bachelors programs (through BYU-Idaho, but all online; like IT, business, others), and is also suitable for those who need to first become qualified for a university (like learning English, which is used in curriculum, and other basic skills), and then provides that university (and then tuition is again lower still, last I checked). I believe it also provides mentor-like contacts who encourage students to not give up. I think it is not self-paced, but has semesters. More info is in Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYU_Pathway_Worldwide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYU_Pathway_Worldwide ...and https://www.byupathway.org/ https://www.byupathway.org/

Ishmaeli 4y ago
I have several friends and family members, all active LDS, who have done BYU Pathway, and they all say the same thing: "Wow, is it churchy!" That first semester especially. These people are all very familiar with the various iterations of CES, from early-morning and release-time seminary to the BYU religion curriculum and Institute. So on the one hand they had an idea what they were getting into and even welcomed it somewhat. But none of them expected it to be as heavy-handed as it was. If the religious content feels that overbearing for active, committed Mormons, I don't know that I could in good conscience recommend this route to non-Mormons.
- lcall 4y ago
  Interesting; thanks. I guess one has to decide for oneself whether it is worth it, and good. :)