13 ms·

Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

132 points by nanope 5y ago

Overtonwindow 4y ago
Would this affect the upcoming Presidential election?
dx034 4y ago
Interestingly, it looks like Italy is the real culprit here. France can import enough but still exports significantly to Italy (directly and indirectly via Switzerland). If you look at Northern Italy's mix [1], the explanation is simple. They are so reliant on Gas, that importing at any price is cheaper. So all neighbors of Italy (especially France and Switzerland( suffer from high prices as well. The only solution is to increase transmission capacity, but that's not easy with NIMBY challenges. [1] https://app.electricitymap.org/zone/IT-NO https://app.electricitymap.org/zone/IT-NO
Havoc 4y ago
At least it is quite windy in Europe at the moment so offshore wind should be doing ok
ricardobayes 4y ago
It is the same, or even worse in Spain. We are entering an age of energy poverty where average people need to think twice before turning appliances on. It's crazy to think about that in a top 10-15 economy. EU needs to detach energy prices from gas prices ASAP. Countries like Spain are actively penalized for creating energy from renewable sources.
rektide 5y ago
weather demand related, is one comment. im interestes to hear more about the French Republic paying some.of the cost. do consumers just see a reduced rate on their bills, or is it clear that the state paid some of their bill? is thhe state blanketly paying out the same amount per use for everyone & every company, subsidizing by use, or are there limits or preconditions that apply?
- pjerem 5y ago
  Electricity providers can choose their prices but EDF, which is the only state owned provider, must have at least one offering with prices fixed by the law. Usually, this offering is overpriced but nowadays, it’s the cheapest way to get electricity. So EDF, as a company, is currently, technically, taking the loss. But the French state is the main shareholder of EDF and can inject capital with public money into EDF if needed. Other electricity providers are just loosing customers. But in France, electricity providers are not electricity producers, they are just intermediates between the consumer and the producer, so they can die and I don’t care. At least, EDF is state owned, main producer, main provider and the means of production (nuclear plants) have all been paid by public money.
rurban 5y ago
nuclear vs wind energy maybe. just look at it. which do you think is 30x cheaper? the more interesting question is why the oil and water-energy exporter Norway got so much more expensive domestic energy prizes since it joined the European energy market.
- natmaka 4y ago
  When it comes to production costs renewables (wind included) are cheaper than nuclear: https://www.lazard.com/perspective/lcoe2020 https://www.lazard.com/perspective/lcoe2020 The gap is growing. When it comes to complete costs of reliable gridpower an adequately spread-out mix of renewables may also be cheaper. https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/180592/european-cooperation-could-provide-more-stable/grep https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/180592/european-cooperation-...
- reacharavindh 5y ago
  I know it is tiring to see this comment. But, the cost of nuclear power quoted everywhere does NOT include the cost of safely handling the waste from it for hundreds of years right? Until it is included it is like Saudi Arabia claiming that oil is the best thing in the world because it costs €1/barrel because they only need to factor the cost of digging for it.
  - adhesive_wombat 5y ago
    Nuclear power strike prices usually do include much of the long term costs, and money has to be committed into a trust (or some similar scheme) as part of getting approval in the first place. And it would be more like Saudi Arabia claiming that oil only costs $100 per barrel because they don't need to pay for pollution remediation, healthcare costs, spill cleanup and their share of all climate change effects from the time they sold the oil until the time that oil's effects have been removed from the system. Which they don't.
    - renox 5y ago
      > Nuclear power strike prices usually do include much of the long term costs In theory yes, but given that they aren't able to predict correctly the cost of building a nuclear station, I don't see why we should trust them on predicting the real cost of dismantling them..
belorn 5y ago
France (One year graph): https://www.epexspot.com/en/market-data?market_area=FR&trading_date=2022-04-04&delivery_date=2022-04-05&underlying_year=&modality=Auction&sub_modality=DayAhead&product=60&data_mode=graph&period=year https://www.epexspot.com/en/market-data?market_area=FR&tradi... Germany (One year graph): https://www.epexspot.com/en/market-data?market_area=DE-LU&trading_date=2022-04-04&delivery_date=2022-04-05&underlying_year=&modality=Auction&sub_modality=DayAhead&product=60&data_mode=graph&period=year https://www.epexspot.com/en/market-data?market_area=DE-LU&tr... Now for some extra fun, overlay this with graphs over CO2 emissions.
- Archelaos 5y ago
  > Now for some extra fun, overlay this with graphs over CO2 emissions. Some other fun: Overlay this with a graph of nuclear waste production.
  - exabrial 4y ago
    * Designate literally 1sq mile away from everyone. * Install a single swimming pool. Maybe a hot tub. Leave out Tiki bar. * Put 'waste' there. * Realize this argument is stupid.
  - lm28469 4y ago
    https://twitter.com/laydgeur/status/1433463215321669633?lang=en https://twitter.com/laydgeur/status/1433463215321669633?lang... This red cube is the entire amount of nuclear waste produced by France. And you'll never get in contact with any of it. On the other hand do you know what's filtering coal and gas particulates out of the air ? Your lungs every single day of your life ah, and coal emits more dangerous radioactive waste than nuclear power plants, and again, your lungs are getting their fare share of it: https://inis.iaea.org/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/43/035/43035329.pdf https://inis.iaea.org/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/...
  - exabrial 4y ago
    So a couple of kilos of potentially recyclable material, that we're going to encase in concrete/glass instead, vs trillions of tons of soot
merpnderp 5y ago
What would Germany’s energy prices be if they’d transitioned away from cheap Russian natgas starting back in 2014? What will they be if Russia shuts down exports tomorrow? France is in a much better position.
- nanope 5y ago
  Obviously not? Just because France doesn't buy natural gas themselves, they import so much electricity based on natural gas from its neighbors. So they are defacto dependent on natural gas as they can't supply electricity enough with nuclear and are thus in such much much worse energy political situation as prices will continue to surge.
  - complexworld 5y ago
    Do you have a source for this information? This is what I found "In 2020, France exported a total of nearly 78 terawatt hours of electricity. Meanwhile, electricity imports to France amounted to nearly 35 terawatt hours in total that year." Source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1279015/france-electricity-trade-in-europe-by-country/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1279015/france-electrici...
    - merb 5y ago
      nuclear is only useful for base load you cant shutdown a reactor in hours, thats why france imports a lot of gas (the same goes for germany, its the fastest way to scale energy, burn more gas, its even easier than with coal.)
      - natmaka 4y ago
        Indeed. France is by far the leader when it comes to the fraction of electricity produced by nuclear reactors; however it never ever could phase out fossil fuels, nor could or can do it at a realistic cost. In the following history graph fossil fuels ("Thermique classique", in French) amounts used to produce electricity are represented by red surfaces: https://www.statistiques.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/edition-numerique/chiffres-cles-energie-2021/15-electricite https://www.statistiques.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/editi...
marbu 5y ago
About 1/2 of nuclear power plants in France are down because of maintenance and/or repairs[1][2]: > France's nuclear fleet has been hit by unprecedented outages this winter with half of its 56 reactors currently unavailable. This is happening in a country where most people use electric heating[3] while the temperatures dropped a bit recently (minimal temperatures are mostly below zero centigrade, while max. doesn't go over 10 C)[4]. Moreover the ongoing Russian war doesn't exactly help here. [1] https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/edf-extend-civaux-nuclear-outage-shut-down-reactors-chooz-safety-measures-2021-12-15/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/edf-extend-civaux-nuc... [2] https://www.spglobal.com/commodity-insights/en/market-insights/latest-news/electric-power/040322-french-power-spikes-on-cold-snap-rte-calls-for-reduced-consumption https://www.spglobal.com/commodity-insights/en/market-insigh... [3] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1086485/types-heater-housing-main-france/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1086485/types-heater-hou... [4] https://www.weatheronline.co.uk/weather/maps/forecastmaps?LANG=en&CONT=frfr&MAPS=vtn&LOOP=0&LAND=FR&MORE=1&UP=0&R=0&DAY=0 https://www.weatheronline.co.uk/weather/maps/forecastmaps?LA...
- dijit 4y ago
  I have to say that this bears a striking similarity to what stuxnet intended to do and the timing is impeccable with the current Russian invasion of Ukraine. Not to invoke the Russian boogeyman. But I wonder.
- tonyedgecombe 4y ago
  Yet another reason that nuclear isn't the panacea it is presented as here.
  - mritun 4y ago
    Which technology doesn’t need maintenance?
    - tonyedgecombe 4y ago
      Half of the plants offline?
Shadonototra 5y ago
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- cinntaile 4y ago
  The wholesale electricity price in the EU is calculated the same everywhere as far as I know. It's the cost for the most expensive energy source that was needed to meet demand.
guerby 4y ago
Real time data for France electricity generation: https://www.rte-france.com/en/eco2mix https://www.rte-france.com/en/eco2mix Import/exports are here: https://www.rte-france.com/en/eco2mix/cross-border-electricity-trading# https://www.rte-france.com/en/eco2mix/cross-border-electrici... Yesterday France imported between 6 and 10 GW, a lot from Germany

132 points by nanope 5y ago

Would this affect the upcoming Presidential election?

Interestingly, it looks like Italy is the real culprit here. France can import enough but still exports significantly to Italy (directly and indirectly via Switzerland). If you look at Northern Italy's mix [1], the explanation is simple. They are so reliant on Gas, that importing at any price is cheaper. So all neighbors of Italy (especially France and Switzerland( suffer from high prices as well. The only solution is to increase transmission capacity, but that's not easy with NIMBY challenges. [1] https://app.electricitymap.org/zone/IT-NO https://app.electricitymap.org/zone/IT-NO

Havoc 4y ago

At least it is quite windy in Europe at the moment so offshore wind should be doing ok

ricardobayes 4y ago

It is the same, or even worse in Spain. We are entering an age of energy poverty where average people need to think twice before turning appliances on. It's crazy to think about that in a top 10-15 economy. EU needs to detach energy prices from gas prices ASAP. Countries like Spain are actively penalized for creating energy from renewable sources.

rektide 5y ago

weather demand related, is one comment. im interestes to hear more about the French Republic paying some.of the cost. do consumers just see a reduced rate on their bills, or is it clear that the state paid some of their bill? is thhe state blanketly paying out the same amount per use for everyone & every company, subsidizing by use, or are there limits or preconditions that apply?

pjerem 5y ago
Electricity providers can choose their prices but EDF, which is the only state owned provider, must have at least one offering with prices fixed by the law. Usually, this offering is overpriced but nowadays, it’s the cheapest way to get electricity. So EDF, as a company, is currently, technically, taking the loss. But the French state is the main shareholder of EDF and can inject capital with public money into EDF if needed. Other electricity providers are just loosing customers. But in France, electricity providers are not electricity producers, they are just intermediates between the consumer and the producer, so they can die and I don’t care. At least, EDF is state owned, main producer, main provider and the means of production (nuclear plants) have all been paid by public money.

rurban 5y ago

nuclear vs wind energy maybe. just look at it. which do you think is 30x cheaper? the more interesting question is why the oil and water-energy exporter Norway got so much more expensive domestic energy prizes since it joined the European energy market.

natmaka 4y ago
When it comes to production costs renewables (wind included) are cheaper than nuclear: https://www.lazard.com/perspective/lcoe2020 https://www.lazard.com/perspective/lcoe2020 The gap is growing. When it comes to complete costs of reliable gridpower an adequately spread-out mix of renewables may also be cheaper. https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/180592/european-cooperation-could-provide-more-stable/grep https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/180592/european-cooperation-...
reacharavindh 5y ago
I know it is tiring to see this comment. But, the cost of nuclear power quoted everywhere does NOT include the cost of safely handling the waste from it for hundreds of years right? Until it is included it is like Saudi Arabia claiming that oil is the best thing in the world because it costs €1/barrel because they only need to factor the cost of digging for it.
- adhesive_wombat 5y ago
  Nuclear power strike prices usually do include much of the long term costs, and money has to be committed into a trust (or some similar scheme) as part of getting approval in the first place. And it would be more like Saudi Arabia claiming that oil only costs $100 per barrel because they don't need to pay for pollution remediation, healthcare costs, spill cleanup and their share of all climate change effects from the time they sold the oil until the time that oil's effects have been removed from the system. Which they don't.
  - renox 5y ago
    > Nuclear power strike prices usually do include much of the long term costs In theory yes, but given that they aren't able to predict correctly the cost of building a nuclear station, I don't see why we should trust them on predicting the real cost of dismantling them..

belorn 5y ago

France (One year graph): https://www.epexspot.com/en/market-data?market_area=FR&trading_date=2022-04-04&delivery_date=2022-04-05&underlying_year=&modality=Auction&sub_modality=DayAhead&product=60&data_mode=graph&period=year https://www.epexspot.com/en/market-data?market_area=FR&tradi... Germany (One year graph): https://www.epexspot.com/en/market-data?market_area=DE-LU&trading_date=2022-04-04&delivery_date=2022-04-05&underlying_year=&modality=Auction&sub_modality=DayAhead&product=60&data_mode=graph&period=year https://www.epexspot.com/en/market-data?market_area=DE-LU&tr... Now for some extra fun, overlay this with graphs over CO2 emissions.

Archelaos 5y ago
> Now for some extra fun, overlay this with graphs over CO2 emissions. Some other fun: Overlay this with a graph of nuclear waste production.
- exabrial 4y ago
  * Designate literally 1sq mile away from everyone. * Install a single swimming pool. Maybe a hot tub. Leave out Tiki bar. * Put 'waste' there. * Realize this argument is stupid.
- lm28469 4y ago
  https://twitter.com/laydgeur/status/1433463215321669633?lang=en https://twitter.com/laydgeur/status/1433463215321669633?lang... This red cube is the entire amount of nuclear waste produced by France. And you'll never get in contact with any of it. On the other hand do you know what's filtering coal and gas particulates out of the air ? Your lungs every single day of your life ah, and coal emits more dangerous radioactive waste than nuclear power plants, and again, your lungs are getting their fare share of it: https://inis.iaea.org/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/43/035/43035329.pdf https://inis.iaea.org/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/...
- exabrial 4y ago
  So a couple of kilos of potentially recyclable material, that we're going to encase in concrete/glass instead, vs trillions of tons of soot

merpnderp 5y ago

What would Germany’s energy prices be if they’d transitioned away from cheap Russian natgas starting back in 2014? What will they be if Russia shuts down exports tomorrow? France is in a much better position.

nanope 5y ago
Obviously not? Just because France doesn't buy natural gas themselves, they import so much electricity based on natural gas from its neighbors. So they are defacto dependent on natural gas as they can't supply electricity enough with nuclear and are thus in such much much worse energy political situation as prices will continue to surge.
- complexworld 5y ago
  Do you have a source for this information? This is what I found "In 2020, France exported a total of nearly 78 terawatt hours of electricity. Meanwhile, electricity imports to France amounted to nearly 35 terawatt hours in total that year." Source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1279015/france-electricity-trade-in-europe-by-country/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1279015/france-electrici...
  - merb 5y ago
    nuclear is only useful for base load you cant shutdown a reactor in hours, thats why france imports a lot of gas (the same goes for germany, its the fastest way to scale energy, burn more gas, its even easier than with coal.)
    - natmaka 4y ago
      Indeed. France is by far the leader when it comes to the fraction of electricity produced by nuclear reactors; however it never ever could phase out fossil fuels, nor could or can do it at a realistic cost. In the following history graph fossil fuels ("Thermique classique", in French) amounts used to produce electricity are represented by red surfaces: https://www.statistiques.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/edition-numerique/chiffres-cles-energie-2021/15-electricite https://www.statistiques.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/editi...

marbu 5y ago

About 1/2 of nuclear power plants in France are down because of maintenance and/or repairs[1][2]: > France's nuclear fleet has been hit by unprecedented outages this winter with half of its 56 reactors currently unavailable. This is happening in a country where most people use electric heating[3] while the temperatures dropped a bit recently (minimal temperatures are mostly below zero centigrade, while max. doesn't go over 10 C)[4]. Moreover the ongoing Russian war doesn't exactly help here. [1] https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/edf-extend-civaux-nuclear-outage-shut-down-reactors-chooz-safety-measures-2021-12-15/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/edf-extend-civaux-nuc... [2] https://www.spglobal.com/commodity-insights/en/market-insights/latest-news/electric-power/040322-french-power-spikes-on-cold-snap-rte-calls-for-reduced-consumption https://www.spglobal.com/commodity-insights/en/market-insigh... [3] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1086485/types-heater-housing-main-france/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1086485/types-heater-hou... [4] https://www.weatheronline.co.uk/weather/maps/forecastmaps?LANG=en&CONT=frfr&MAPS=vtn&LOOP=0&LAND=FR&MORE=1&UP=0&R=0&DAY=0 https://www.weatheronline.co.uk/weather/maps/forecastmaps?LA...

dijit 4y ago
I have to say that this bears a striking similarity to what stuxnet intended to do and the timing is impeccable with the current Russian invasion of Ukraine. Not to invoke the Russian boogeyman. But I wonder.
tonyedgecombe 4y ago
Yet another reason that nuclear isn't the panacea it is presented as here.
- mritun 4y ago
  Which technology doesn’t need maintenance?
  - tonyedgecombe 4y ago
    Half of the plants offline?

Shadonototra 5y ago

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
cinntaile 4y ago
The wholesale electricity price in the EU is calculated the same everywhere as far as I know. It's the cost for the most expensive energy source that was needed to meet demand.

guerby 4y ago

Real time data for France electricity generation: https://www.rte-france.com/en/eco2mix https://www.rte-france.com/en/eco2mix Import/exports are here: https://www.rte-france.com/en/eco2mix/cross-border-electricity-trading# https://www.rte-france.com/en/eco2mix/cross-border-electrici... Yesterday France imported between 6 and 10 GW, a lot from Germany