5 ms·

Norway would be the counter argument to everything you've said. Highly educated, longest living, least depressed. And the sun is out at midnight 76 days per y

by mvkel 5y ago

Norway would be the counter argument to everything you've said. Highly educated, longest living, least depressed. And the sun is out at midnight 76 days per year there. Humans are adaptable. A -permanent- hour change would surely be less harmful than changing said hours twice a year.

inciampati 5y ago
Yes and the sun never rises completely for a similar length of time. Perhaps it's the darkness that's the key to utopia?
- jjallen 5y ago
  I strongly doubt this. If this was true, seasonal affective disorder would occur in the summer and not the winter, don't you think? And our ancient ancestors didn't evolve where it is dark. Nor did we evolve where the length of day changes much at all. The fact that short days and darkness cause so many people problems in the winter tells me that amount of sunlight really matters to us. And generally speaking, more is better, to an extent.
  - MrYellowP 5y ago
    > The fact that short days and darkness cause so many people problems in the winter tells me that amount of sunlight really matters to us. For the greatest part of our history we've spent our time outside, not sitting in artificial caves with artificial lights, hiding from the sun. If you want something that tells you why the sun is so important, take this instead. If that doesn't work for you, remember that having enough exposure to the sun is vital for your body to function properly, both mentally and physically. We'd not be producing "Vitamin D" by being exposed for some time, if the sun wasn't an important factor in our existence.
- Thlom 5y ago
  After 35 I've more and more noticed how the long darkness affects my mental health. I'm not in northern Norway, so the sun rises all year, but during winter it comes up after I go to work and sets before I go home. So it's basically dark all the time. Supplementing vitamin D seems to help somewhat at least.
MrYellowP 5y ago
This. The idea that fucking up everyone's rhythm twice per year isn't as bad as not doing it, is ridiculous.
bocytron 5y ago
> least depressed. Source please?
- ojosilva 5y ago
  On the contrary, Norway, as most Scandinavians, are above the EU average on chronic depression. But Portugal, a sun-rich country which sits East of its timezone, gets the top spot. So, go figure. https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/edn-20210910-1 https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/e...
seanmcdirmid 5y ago
As a seattlite, darkness in the winter definitely effects me. This is why I’d rather have the extra hours of daylight when I’m awake, since it increases the chance of hitting a few hours of light without rain/overcast skies.
- dsego 5y ago
  Wake up an hour early? You don't need to move the clock to be able to adjust when you wake up or go to sleep.
  - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
    If I lived in a society where I got to set my own times, that would work perfectly. Get my kid up at six, force daycare to open and close an hour earlier, and have my meeting schedule displaced an hour earlier (hey, works well for those VCs to Stockholm, but those people are always in the dark in the winter).
  - Scarblac 5y ago
    Individuals have limited control over their own schedule, because of work hours, school hours etc.
    - caeril 5y ago
      They said wake up an hour early, not late, which has absolutely no impact on externally-imposed schedules. You have an extra hour to do X, whether that be exercise, getting baked out of your mind, scrolling instagram, etc. You can't tell me that a society that burns, on average, five and a half hours daily on useless, mindless activities like television, sportsball, and social media is going to be even mildly perturbed by this. There's plenty of slack in the average person's schedule to move things around.
GoblinSlayer 5y ago
The meaning is that permanent standard time is preferable to permanent DST, because it's more important during winter: during summer you get plenty of sunlight no matter what you have on the clock. That is, if we optimize for health instead of shopping.
- Scarblac 5y ago
  I disagree on summer time, summer time makes they day on which it's possible to do outdoor activities in the evening come about three weeks earlier than without it. And sunlight around 5am when virtually everyone is asleep is much more useless than having it late in the evening.
  - NeutronStar 5y ago
altacc 5y ago
Only the far north of Norway has a long polar night, down south the days are short but not much different to many other places. In the north, the winter causes more sleep problems and some low mood/energy. (sources below) But this is false equivalence as it's studying a different thing. Also it is very difficult to compare mental health studies across countries and attribute differences to single causes as there are so many confounding factors. In Norway there is a good standard of living, a social safety net, cheap healthcare and many other factors that are proven to be beneficial to mental health. Humans are adaptable but sometime I think it's more accurate to say that humans tolerate different environments. We often don't adapt to them, we cope with them. [1] https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/psychological-medicine/article/abs/selfreported-mental-distress-under-the-shifting-daylight-in-the-high-north/44AC70184CE87BA0E8685880005544E0# https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/psychological-medici... [2] https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-244X-12-225 https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/147...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
whiplash451 5y ago
A couple things: 1. Comparing the US (or any other country) to Norway is not valid because there are so many confounding variables. For one, Norway sinks in oil money and uses that money extensively to fund great social welfare programs. 2. What matters is relative within a country, not between country. The US had the choice between two time zones, and that's the question at stake here (not how the US compares to other countries, or how other countries deal with short day light periods).
- dottedmag 5y ago
  Norway has explicitly barred any oil income to leak into the economy. All oil income is directed to the special fund that is not tapped (yet). (I'm a citizen of Norway)
  - lemmonii 5y ago
    False, it was tapped in 2016. I also think it was tapped in 2020 but am unable to confirm, they atleast plan to withdraw again in 2022. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-norway-swf/norway-says-made-first-withdrawal-from-oil-fund-in-january-idUSKCN0W52JR https://www.reuters.com/article/us-norway-swf/norway-says-ma... https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/norway-raises-2022-spending-wealth-fund-41-billion-2022-01-14/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/norway-raises-2022-spen...
  - lovskogen 5y ago
    False, 3% of the fund is tapped each year.
peter_tolstrup 5y ago
Norway is one of the richest countries in the world – because they have so much oil – and they share the wealth with the people through social security and (mostly) free education and health care. I think that has much more influence on those factors than light.
sampo 5y ago
> A -permanent- hour change would surely be less harmful than changing said hours twice a year. If you ask actual scientists who research this topic, you get a different answer: "The authors take the position that, based on comparisons of large populations living in DST or ST or on western versus eastern edges of time zones, the advantages of permanent ST outweigh switching to DST annually or permanently" https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0748730419854197 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/07487304198541... So, permanent standard time is better than switching, but switching is better than permanent summer time.
- WithinReason 5y ago
  That article mentions the downsides of switching from ST to DST, but doesn't mention the downsides of switching back. It's as biased as it gets. If you already know what outcome you want it's easy to assemble evidence that supports that position, but it's not science, and this article is one of the best examples of that I've ever seen.
  - sampo 5y ago
    It's a position paper. It posits an expert option, based on the research that is listed in the references. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Position_paper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Position_paper
    - WithinReason 5y ago
      If the paper is not about deciding what the best option is, why did you link it?
      - sampo 5y ago
        > If the paper is not about deciding what the best option is The paper is about the best option: "the advantages of permanent ST outweigh switching to DST annually or permanently".
      - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
saiya-jin 5y ago
> least depressed Compared to what? Anytime I speak to any Norwegian/Swede, they tell me how depression during winter is so widespread basically everybody suffers in one way or another. People in Norway, Sweden, Finland etc go into household lightning overdrive to help this a bit, but real sun is real sun. Single most important reason why I never moved there, even above short summer.
croes 5y ago
> Highly educated, longest living, least depressed. That's just an argument for a good social security system and says nothing about DST
andrepd 5y ago
I can think of a thing or 50 that Norway does different tk the US that might explain their higher levels of educational achievement and better mental health.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- mvkel 5y ago
  Of course. My point was that daylight isn't guaranteed to send a country into disarray as OP seems to imply.
pibechorro 5y ago
Also some of the highest rates of suicide...

by mvkel 5y ago

inciampati 5y ago

Yes and the sun never rises completely for a similar length of time. Perhaps it's the darkness that's the key to utopia?

jjallen 5y ago
I strongly doubt this. If this was true, seasonal affective disorder would occur in the summer and not the winter, don't you think? And our ancient ancestors didn't evolve where it is dark. Nor did we evolve where the length of day changes much at all. The fact that short days and darkness cause so many people problems in the winter tells me that amount of sunlight really matters to us. And generally speaking, more is better, to an extent.
- MrYellowP 5y ago
  > The fact that short days and darkness cause so many people problems in the winter tells me that amount of sunlight really matters to us. For the greatest part of our history we've spent our time outside, not sitting in artificial caves with artificial lights, hiding from the sun. If you want something that tells you why the sun is so important, take this instead. If that doesn't work for you, remember that having enough exposure to the sun is vital for your body to function properly, both mentally and physically. We'd not be producing "Vitamin D" by being exposed for some time, if the sun wasn't an important factor in our existence.
Thlom 5y ago
After 35 I've more and more noticed how the long darkness affects my mental health. I'm not in northern Norway, so the sun rises all year, but during winter it comes up after I go to work and sets before I go home. So it's basically dark all the time. Supplementing vitamin D seems to help somewhat at least.

MrYellowP 5y ago

This. The idea that fucking up everyone's rhythm twice per year isn't as bad as not doing it, is ridiculous.

bocytron 5y ago

> least depressed. Source please?

ojosilva 5y ago
On the contrary, Norway, as most Scandinavians, are above the EU average on chronic depression. But Portugal, a sun-rich country which sits East of its timezone, gets the top spot. So, go figure. https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/edn-20210910-1 https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/e...

seanmcdirmid 5y ago

As a seattlite, darkness in the winter definitely effects me. This is why I’d rather have the extra hours of daylight when I’m awake, since it increases the chance of hitting a few hours of light without rain/overcast skies.

dsego 5y ago
Wake up an hour early? You don't need to move the clock to be able to adjust when you wake up or go to sleep.
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  If I lived in a society where I got to set my own times, that would work perfectly. Get my kid up at six, force daycare to open and close an hour earlier, and have my meeting schedule displaced an hour earlier (hey, works well for those VCs to Stockholm, but those people are always in the dark in the winter).
- Scarblac 5y ago
  Individuals have limited control over their own schedule, because of work hours, school hours etc.
  - caeril 5y ago
    They said wake up an hour early, not late, which has absolutely no impact on externally-imposed schedules. You have an extra hour to do X, whether that be exercise, getting baked out of your mind, scrolling instagram, etc. You can't tell me that a society that burns, on average, five and a half hours daily on useless, mindless activities like television, sportsball, and social media is going to be even mildly perturbed by this. There's plenty of slack in the average person's schedule to move things around.

GoblinSlayer 5y ago

The meaning is that permanent standard time is preferable to permanent DST, because it's more important during winter: during summer you get plenty of sunlight no matter what you have on the clock. That is, if we optimize for health instead of shopping.

Scarblac 5y ago
I disagree on summer time, summer time makes they day on which it's possible to do outdoor activities in the evening come about three weeks earlier than without it. And sunlight around 5am when virtually everyone is asleep is much more useless than having it late in the evening.
- NeutronStar 5y ago

altacc 5y ago

Only the far north of Norway has a long polar night, down south the days are short but not much different to many other places. In the north, the winter causes more sleep problems and some low mood/energy. (sources below) But this is false equivalence as it's studying a different thing. Also it is very difficult to compare mental health studies across countries and attribute differences to single causes as there are so many confounding factors. In Norway there is a good standard of living, a social safety net, cheap healthcare and many other factors that are proven to be beneficial to mental health. Humans are adaptable but sometime I think it's more accurate to say that humans tolerate different environments. We often don't adapt to them, we cope with them. [1] https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/psychological-medicine/article/abs/selfreported-mental-distress-under-the-shifting-daylight-in-the-high-north/44AC70184CE87BA0E8685880005544E0# https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/psychological-medici... [2] https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-244X-12-225 https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/147...

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

whiplash451 5y ago

A couple things: 1. Comparing the US (or any other country) to Norway is not valid because there are so many confounding variables. For one, Norway sinks in oil money and uses that money extensively to fund great social welfare programs. 2. What matters is relative within a country, not between country. The US had the choice between two time zones, and that's the question at stake here (not how the US compares to other countries, or how other countries deal with short day light periods).

dottedmag 5y ago
Norway has explicitly barred any oil income to leak into the economy. All oil income is directed to the special fund that is not tapped (yet). (I'm a citizen of Norway)
- lemmonii 5y ago
  False, it was tapped in 2016. I also think it was tapped in 2020 but am unable to confirm, they atleast plan to withdraw again in 2022. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-norway-swf/norway-says-made-first-withdrawal-from-oil-fund-in-january-idUSKCN0W52JR https://www.reuters.com/article/us-norway-swf/norway-says-ma... https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/norway-raises-2022-spending-wealth-fund-41-billion-2022-01-14/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/norway-raises-2022-spen...
- lovskogen 5y ago
  False, 3% of the fund is tapped each year.

peter_tolstrup 5y ago

Norway is one of the richest countries in the world – because they have so much oil – and they share the wealth with the people through social security and (mostly) free education and health care. I think that has much more influence on those factors than light.

sampo 5y ago

> A -permanent- hour change would surely be less harmful than changing said hours twice a year. If you ask actual scientists who research this topic, you get a different answer: "The authors take the position that, based on comparisons of large populations living in DST or ST or on western versus eastern edges of time zones, the advantages of permanent ST outweigh switching to DST annually or permanently" https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0748730419854197 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/07487304198541... So, permanent standard time is better than switching, but switching is better than permanent summer time.

WithinReason 5y ago
That article mentions the downsides of switching from ST to DST, but doesn't mention the downsides of switching back. It's as biased as it gets. If you already know what outcome you want it's easy to assemble evidence that supports that position, but it's not science, and this article is one of the best examples of that I've ever seen.
- sampo 5y ago
  It's a position paper. It posits an expert option, based on the research that is listed in the references. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Position_paper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Position_paper
  - WithinReason 5y ago
    If the paper is not about deciding what the best option is, why did you link it?
    - sampo 5y ago
      > If the paper is not about deciding what the best option is The paper is about the best option: "the advantages of permanent ST outweigh switching to DST annually or permanently".
    - Wowfunhappy 5y ago

saiya-jin 5y ago

> least depressed Compared to what? Anytime I speak to any Norwegian/Swede, they tell me how depression during winter is so widespread basically everybody suffers in one way or another. People in Norway, Sweden, Finland etc go into household lightning overdrive to help this a bit, but real sun is real sun. Single most important reason why I never moved there, even above short summer.

croes 5y ago

> Highly educated, longest living, least depressed. That's just an argument for a good social security system and says nothing about DST

andrepd 5y ago

I can think of a thing or 50 that Norway does different tk the US that might explain their higher levels of educational achievement and better mental health.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mvkel 5y ago
Of course. My point was that daylight isn't guaranteed to send a country into disarray as OP seems to imply.

pibechorro 5y ago

Also some of the highest rates of suicide...