24 ms·

Toll signs on 101 report your transponder setting

283 points by zdw 5y ago

us0r 5y ago
I just learned about "confidential plates" the other day. Interesting read. https://sdrostra.com/1-5-million-private-ca-cars-have-ticket-proof-confidential-licence-plates/ https://sdrostra.com/1-5-million-private-ca-cars-have-ticket....
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
71a54xd 5y ago
I recently rented a vehicle on Turo in CA for three days and racked up maybe three toll charges - even though I followed the law and did my best to avoid HOV lanes when I didn't have enough occupants. I was greeted the following month with a *$320* ticket. The fees themselves totalled to no more than $12 which I would've been totally okay paying, but the overage fee for non-payment (which how was I supposed to know the owner wasn't watching the records for his vehicle - per Turo rules?) were over *$100 per charge*. To call this predatory is an understatement. Also, a word of warning to anyone using Turo, they usually indicate that "the driver is liable for all toll charges while driving the vehicle" which can screw you if you don't confirm in writing with the owner if they're watching toll records. Always settle via the Turo app, many owners will try to settle with you directly and try to force you to pay the full fee. Fortunately, I was able to get slightly less ripped off and pay 40% of the charge by settling through the Turo app. I love CA and a lot of my friends live there, but goodness are they chalking up reasons for me to never live there again.
- BoorishBears 5y ago
  I don't use Turo anymore, no point at all. Back in the day Turo was mostly people with somewhat interesting cars who wanted to share them, and rental agencies had nothing interesting, and the pricing was reasonable. - Now a $60 a day car can come out to more than a $100 a day car because of extended insurance for specific models, Turo fees, weird discount structures, massive deposits (One $70 a day car had an $700 deposit). And there's no way to actually account for that in searching, the estimated price never includes any of this. So you're left to randomly click around and "guess" which cars don't all belong to the same guy tacking on a massive deposit, or asking for some money on the side. It all just feels incredibly sleazy, and wreaks of Turo's model essentially failing since private owners care more about their cars than an agency, and they likely had to deal with a ton more claims. There are also a ton of deeply unsafe cars on there now, especially older non-enthusiast cars. Rental agencies might not be the best about safety, but they also won't keep a 100k mile structurally rusted out econobox laying around... - I just went through that last week and decided to go with Sixt. I got a rental "A5 or similar" (convertible 4 series was the option I took at the counter), and for 12 dollars a day I get unlimited tolls in CA.
  - djrogers 5y ago
    100k miles is ‘deeply unsafe’? You can’t evaluate structural rust in a photo, so if you’re deciding safety based on mileage you have a very unreal sense of safe vs unsafe.
    - wcfields 5y ago
      I've never had an unsafe car persay, but when working with a small budget you'll end up with a high-mileage 2010 Toyota Corolla. (Turo says "Cars that have more than 130,000 mi/200,000 km may remain listed as long as they’re in excellent condition") [1] What I've noticed on Turo is now there's a large mix of 'big' players: Unregulated car rental biz that have 10+ beaters of Echos/Sparks/Minis/Focus, or, a buy-here/pay-here used car dealership that's renting out everything on the lot. [1] https://support.turo.com/hc/en-us/articles/203991940-Vehicles-we-accept https://support.turo.com/hc/en-us/articles/203991940-Vehicle...
    - BoorishBears 5y ago
      That's not what I wrote, but you're certainly free to misread my sentence and go off on a strawman. https://youtu.be/hQlrGGJodgQ https://youtu.be/hQlrGGJodgQ 100k miles doesn't make it unsafe, the rust does. 100k miles is mentioned because a 50k mile car is less likely to have potential critical rust, and rental companies are selling cars at 50k miles on average. Of course now this is the part where you say 50k mile cars can have rust too! They sure can, but where is rust worse, at 50k miles or after an additional 50k miles? - It's not just rust either, as miles tick up there's plenty of maintenance that's supposed to be done that private renters making a buck won't. Your rental agency isn't going to pick up a high milage 3 series that's one good highway trip away from shredding its serpentine belt because no one ever fixed a single oil leak it had... - They're also not going to do what my Turo renter did in Miami: Give you a car with a brake light and clear metal on metal sounds and tell you "oh, that's ok, the sensor is just broken"
    - Dylan16807 5y ago
      It says "100k mile structurally rusted out" is deeply unsafe. Did we read the same comment?
- Johnny555 5y ago
  but goodness are they chalking up reasons for me to never live in there again California doesn't set Turo's toll policies, and many states have implemented automated tolling, so your list of states to live in in going to get smaller and smaller. I think the biggest problem with automated tolling is that every state has their own independent system -- the federal government should enforce one standard, so I can use my toll reader on any toll road in the country. Oh hey, I was looking to see if there was a multi-state toll tag and it sounds like the US government did pass a law requiring interoperability, but this linked website doesn't appear to sell this "nationalpass", so I don't know what happened to the law: https://www.nationalpass.net/ https://www.nationalpass.net/ Toll Interoperability by 2016 H.R.4348 - MAP-21 In 2012, Congress passed the Moving Ahead for Progress in the 21st Century Act (MAP-21) to ease the burden of tolled interstate travel by providing motorists the convenience of a single toll tag and account.
  - bigbillheck 5y ago
    > every state has their own independent system -- the federal government should enforce one standard, so I can use my toll reader on any toll road in the country. My EZ-Pass works in 19 states.
    - brewdad 5y ago
      And I have a transponder for the Seattle area that I use about 3-5 times a year. I don't live in Washington but I do visit regularly. It doesn't work anywhere else but when I need it, I need it. A nationwide standard really is needed.
  - bbarn 5y ago
    I don't think interstate highways should be tolled, period. They were paid for decades ago, and maintenance should be covered by the existing gas tax. I am not opposed to convenience highways in metro areas being tolled, as long as there is a non-toll option that is reasonably similar in non-rush hour times. As it stands the major Chicago to New York and New York to DC routes are tolls almost the entire way. The nation paid for those routes, and now pays to use them as well.
- Melatonic 5y ago
  Is that just Turo screwing you over? In SoCal as long as you have a fastrack account associated with the vehicle/license plate even if you have no transponder your account still gets charged the normal fee + a small additional courtesy fee. I believe the additional fee might be 6$ which does not seem ridiculous (to me at least). To me this more just sounds like the owner of that vehicle is an idiot and never registered the plate with fastrack.
roflchoppa 5y ago
Man I really hate the new HOV lanes, there are too many negligent drivers that drive below the speed limit, at least with a carpool lane you could overtake.
- core-utility 5y ago
  I'd frequently get stuck behind buses, box trucks, and vehicles towing trailers. It's astounding how the latter two are allowed. I somewhat understand municipal buses in an effort to ensure more people ride, and it wouldn't be as annoying if it weren't coupled with the other two.
  - vondur 5y ago
    Wow, I just checked, and you can legally tow travel trailers in the TollRoads, except for the 91 expressway here in SoCal. https://thetollroads.com/help/faq/396 https://thetollroads.com/help/faq/396
- slg 5y ago
  Is this a Bay Area specific thing? The terms "HOV lanes" and "carpool lanes" are used interchangeably in my experience. Are you just calling out separated lanes? The reason for the separation is that traffic in those lanes is often moving much faster than the other lanes which makes it very dangerous to give people the possibility of pulling into that lane unexpectedly. The ideal HOV/carpool lanes should have two lanes to allow passing and be separated from the rest of the lanes to promote safety. The 110 in Los Angeles is a great example and it uses the same transponders with switches that the article is discussing.
  - ddoolin 5y ago
    In my experience, the vast majority of HOV/carpool lanes are single lanes, although some stretches like the 110 and the 91 are doubled up and are a much better experience. It's hard to believe the 405, of all places, is a single HOV lane and it bunches up pretty much continuously. Although, on the 91, I don't know that it uses transponder settings since there's a dedicated "3+" lane when you approach reading areas, which are situated right in front of CHP buildings (so they can see if you're really 3+?)
Spooky23 5y ago
That sounds pretty awful. As much as the DC metro area is a hellscape their auction style access to HOV lanes is probably the most straightforward. It’s nice in that you know how fucked you are based on the price. I remember passing through once and one section had like a $38 toll, I just got off the highway and grabbed a burger.
rzimmerman 5y ago
One thing I love about driving in America is that (in a sense) everyone is equal. Whether you drive a brand new Ferrari or a 1990 Toyota, you still wait in the same traffic. HOV/carpool lanes are an understandable conceit to incentivize good behaviors, but the idea that you can pay money to skip traffic just feels awful to me. Those transponders are cool though. I have a different one for my electric car with a CAV sticker which lets me use some of the SoCal lanes alone.
- slg 5y ago
  >the idea that you can pay money to skip traffic just feels awful to me. This is no different from any toll road except the toll road and the free road are right next to each other and are therefore perfect substitutes with the only difference being the amount of traffic on each.
  - toast0 5y ago
    Yeah, toll roads don't feel right either. Of course, it also didn't feel right to buy a PHEV with carpool stickers, but I did it when my carpool partner took leave. Free charging at work was nice too (thanks Mark), although I was happier when I could take Caltrain.
- marcinzm 5y ago
  >but the idea that you can pay money to skip traffic just feels awful to me. Plenty of places in the US have whole highways that require payment to use. Same for most tunnels and bridges that you can go around but it takes significantly longer.
  - SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
    Yeah, I was going to point out - aren't toll roads a thing?
    - rzimmerman 5y ago
      I’m in California where toll roads are more rare. I also dislike tolls on roads, though I understand the pragmatism.
gnicholas 5y ago
Note that you have to have one of the newer transponders to be able to indicate how many occupants you have. If you have an old-school transponder it assumes you just have two occupants, and you pay the highest rate. I recently ordered a new one, and it appears to be free, assuming you send back the previous transponder.
- jeffbee 5y ago
  I got my Fastrak Flex in 2017. They aren't that new.
  - gnicholas 5y ago
    Great! Some folks have had transponders for a decade or more, as they don't need replacing very often. AFAIK, this is the first time that there has been a reason to get a new transponder if your existing transponder is still operational. It's also not communicated very well to customers. I've talked with many people who wondered how Fastrak knows how many people are in your vehicle. They were unaware that there are new transponders with a toggle.
    - jkubicek 5y ago
      I didn't know there was a new transponder until just this moment.
      - gnicholas 5y ago
        BTW there's also a special version for 'clean air vehicles'. But it's not for all clean air vehicles, and I think my plugin hybrid doesn't qualify. Confusing!
      - browningstreet 5y ago
        Neither did I. Been using the same once since... 2008. And I log in periodically to check charges and change my address and update CC and was never notified that maybe I should consider upgrading.
causi 5y ago
CHP could roll up on them and give them a ticket. I suspect almost everyone could get out of it by claiming to forget what setting they had it on, or that they'd flipped it but the switch didn't go all the way over, or it was sticky, etc.
- function_seven 5y ago
  I suspect the cop will have heard all of these explanations a hundred times by the time they pull you over, and will write the ticket anyway. :)
  - bradlys 5y ago
    Depends on how pretty you are and how much you cry.
    - Fatnino 5y ago
      I'm scrawny with a beard. How much do I have to cry?
    - JohnBooty 5y ago
      A few years ago a cop pulled me over and I gave him my license and registration, the usual song and dance. When he returned to my vehicle he looked at me closely and politely asked me (a non-trans male) if I was aware my driver's license specified that I was a woman. You could tell he was trying to walk the line between possibly offending me and alerting me to a fairly important clerical error. I had no idea. The DMV screwed that one up somehow when I moved to that state and they granted my new license. We both had a pretty good laugh... I said, well, does that mean I can flirt my way out of this ticket? Unfortunately (or fortunately?) the answer was an amused "sorry, no."
    - bradlys 5y ago
      Find it funny people are downvoting this. It's a known thing. If you have any pretty friends - you can get out of tickets very easily by just being pretty and making something up. You won't have this privilege as an unattractive person. No different than being pulled over and judged differently because of your race. Police are incredibly biased.
FullyFunctional 5y ago
Ough, this touches a nerve. The Fastrak system is atrocious and I have been battling it for years. Let me count the ways: - They took my CC number and just kept replenishing $25 every so often even though it had a big balance already. Thankfully my card expired so now I'm sloooowly (don't drive much anymore) working my way through the $100+ credit on my account. - It is so hard to check and contest charges. I had to sent in my complaint with snail mail and IIRC it took a month before I got a reply back that requested information that I already wrote in the first letter doesn't apply. I gave up at this point. - There is _NO_ way to check the transponder short of just using it and waiting a week for the event to show up on the bill. My windshield was apparently blocking radio transmissions (I know why, don't tell me) and experimenting with a different location has a crazy long cycle time due to the above. There days I guess I could do it with a car driving behind me reading what the sign say, but that only works when there isn't much traffic. I hate Fastrak.
- benlivengood 5y ago
  It was nice that the intermediate version beeped when getting pinged; the new flex version (with number of riders switch) is silent again. Maybe it's time to hack a tone into it.
  - erwincoumans 5y ago
    The new Flex transponder (with 1,2,3 switch) does beep for me when passing a bridge toll port (84, 92 etc), not on the highway 101 lane.
    - outworlder 5y ago
      How "new" is it? The new ones are not supposed to beep. https://www.bayareafastrak.org/en/support/toll-tag-basics-faq8.shtml https://www.bayareafastrak.org/en/support/toll-tag-basics-fa...
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mixmastamyk 5y ago
Next question is who is buying and selling this information?
russellbeattie 5y ago
Get used to it. In the next 25 years, all the gas stations are going to close and all that gas tax revenue will need to be replaced, as that's how the roads are maintained. Gas tax is a usage tax, so to replace it with something equivalent, we'll need to be able to track our vehicle's road usage. Maybe cars will just self report, as new cars will just be a consumer electronics device with wheels and a broadband connection anyways. But more than likely the solution will be backwards compatible one at first, like all the license plates becoming e-License plates, with eInk screens and a Fast-Trak style responder for tracking tolls. Extrapolating on this, the idea that you could get into a vehicle and drive along public roads without those roads making a record of your passage is one that will slowly go away. Get used to it. Seriously.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  They could just make truckers pay it all. They do the vast majority of damage to the roads as it is. For side roads we could just pay the old fashioned way with normal taxes. People without cars still benefit from the roads existence.
  - idiotsecant 5y ago
    This is a good example of policy you get when the people making policy don't understand (or understand but don't want to understand) physics but do understand that the transportation lobby is well-funded and well-connected. On one hand they get a bunch of kickbacks for their reelection war-chest and some roads fail 5 years after their re-election is over anyway and someone else will be blamed for it. On the other hand they directly fund their opponent who is unlikely to turn down those dollars, possibly fail in their reelection bid, and successfully save some roads that everyone will just assume would have lasted anyway. It's not hard to see that it's practically impossible for any other outcome, the system is practically designed to create this kind of situation.
  - myself248 5y ago
    Agreed. Road damage scales as the _fourth power_ of the axle weight. That's bonkers, you don't see that exponent in many phenomena. The question is how to move the funds around, as state taxes and road funding stop at state borders, but vehicles don't. And of course states will have a patchwork of registration rules, and won't share money with each other. So the trucking industry will lobby some state to be a tax haven, and all trucks will just be registered there. If only we had some sort of organization that allows states to solve issues that happen between states, like a larger government function...
Bud 5y ago
There seem to be some negative comments about this, but in my opinion this is exactly how this should work. Even better would to have one of these signs up before the enforced toll area begins, to remind drivers what they have their transponder set to, in case they "forgot" to set it properly. Still better would be for the transponder to beep once for the 1-person setting, twice for the 2-person setting, etc., although this could get a bit annoying.
- jeffbee 5y ago
  The newest transponders (since 2020) don't ever beep, because they are totally passive and have no battery.
  - Bud 5y ago
    Cool, I didn't know the details of that.
  - modeless 5y ago
    Thanks, I was wondering why my new one didn't beep. No battery makes so much more sense.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
fotta 5y ago
You can also add your license plate number to your Fastrak account so if you don't have the transponder in your car it'll just charge back to your account via the plate. Obviously doesn't work if you want to carpool.
spike021 5y ago
I've been really frustrated by this change, especially on 237. I used to drive in the faster lane on weekdays around noon to get around slower traffic by myself because that was legal. Now I'd need to pay for the privilege. If I were confident that at least the money would go to road surface maintenance, I'd be partially okay with it. But I'm not, so this is even more ridiculous. 101 has some incredibly bad road surface stretches. 237 is 2 or 3 lanes for most stretches, and periodically there will be clusters of cars going 5-10mph under the limit and now I can't pass them unless I want to pay a Fastrak fee. Mind-boggling, except that they know people here can "afford" it so they think it gives them free-reign to charge.
- downrightmike 5y ago
  When stuck in between and immovable object and an unstoppable force, yield. IE stop driving so much. I've cut my driving down 90% and I am happier, its crazy how driving makes people upset.
  - cscurmudgeon 5y ago
    Not everyone has that luxury. What if you are not rich enough to live near work or your kids school? Just walk/bike/etc. is a form let them eat cake.
    - downrightmike 5y ago
      You change where you work or what you do and move somewhere you can make it.
  - spike021 5y ago
    So I can take a train with my dog up the 280 corridor? Ah, right. Caltrain is only on the inside, 101 corridor; also, last I checked it doesn't allow non-service animals. So...
    - downrightmike 5y ago
      Why do you have to go anywhere to have fun with your dog? Dogs are easy, they just want attention.
formerkrogeremp 5y ago
As someone who's never heard of FasTrack before, this all sounds a little dystopian. In my state, we don't have toll roads, but our roads are pretty awful.
- boobsbr 5y ago
  It gives off "Snow Crash" vibes.
jonnycomputer 5y ago
By making cheating public, but without the public being able to punish defectors, you might actually increase the number of people who cheat, especially if they don't see them getting caught. Sometimes you don't want to give up ambiguity.
mataug 5y ago
I know its easier said than done, but gosh this is some absurd complexity for dealing with a problem of congestion, wouldn't it just be cheaper/safer/simpler/eco-friendly to offer better+faster public transport in the long run ? These kinda solutions just feel like band-aids on top of band-aids when what is really needed are sutures(stitches) ? I'm curious though, are there startups trying to solve this problem of public transport ? Just like the many startups focused on trying to perfect self-driving cars. PS self-driving cars cannot solve traffic congestion
- ultimoo 5y ago
  Building better+faster public transport brings orders of magnitude of absurd complexity, compared to implementing something like this. I do agree that public transit solves many of these problems in the long run, and I hope we get there some day.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
ridaj 5y ago
Why bother! In 10 years in California I have never seen anyone get pulled over for carpool lane violations, but pretty much every time I'm on the road, I witness one.
- willidiots 5y ago
  Exactly. The whole system seems hilariously naïve if you have any real-world driving experience in the bay area. I drove 205/580->680->880->237 daily for years, one of the first express corridors. People constantly crossing over the double-white line, intentionally exiting the lane at each transponder to skip tolls, driving on the shoulder, driving past a huge line of cars so they can bully their way in at the last moment. CHP seems to let most of that slide - they're busy with the massive accidents that constantly result. I highly doubt they're going to care about 1 vs 2 vs 3, and I feel for them if they're expected to.
  - ryandrake 5y ago
    The last two years have shown us that people will routinely and casually break the rules merely to avoid mild discomfort, even while lives are on the line and people are dying. I don’t see how these voluntary transponders are even remotely effective.
- BurningFrog 5y ago
  How can you tell what cars get pulled over for?
  - rconti 5y ago
    You've really gotta try to get pulled over here. I just broke my streak, been in the Bay Area for 20 years but finally got pulled over last year. First time ever interacting with police at the side of the road in California. 20 years. Lest you think I'm a saint, I got 4 tickets the year I moved away from Seattle alone.
  - mywittyname 5y ago
    Presumably, OP rarely sees anyone pulled over. So cause is irrelevant.
godman_8 5y ago
https://web.archive.org/web/20220310040354/http://rachelbythebay.com/w/2022/03/09/toll/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220310040354/http://rachelbyth...
- ta988 5y ago
  Any reason you are archiving it?
  - godman_8 5y ago
    It wasn't loading for me, figured I'd share if others were having the problem.
    - ta988 5y ago
      Thanks!
ma2rten 5y ago
How does this work for clean air vehicles? Do they still need the transponder?
- 01100011 5y ago
  Yes. You need a CAV tag. I started applying for one and then I noticed they wanted to pre-charge my credit card $25. I may not use an HOV lane for months and yet they want to take my money now for some reason.
jxramos 5y ago
I can't make heads or tails of why fasttrack has those messages "Tolling Begins Spring 2021", "Tolling Begins Spring 2022". Is this is a deliberately misleading message to get people to think that the system is not fully deployed and that the public is getting a courtesy heads up to start watching their lanes soon because they will be charged once the tolling actually begins? The tolling has already begun, why do they bother displaying these messages?
- pishpash 5y ago
  Has it actually begun?
CogitoCogito 5y ago
I feel like a simpler system would be to just charge the same for vehicles using these lanes regardless of occupants. A higher cost will incentivize more occupants anyway. Of course in that system there would be no HOV lane incentive to drive electric vehicles, but so what? They have already been subsidized through tax breaks and we could always incentivize them further by increasing gas taxes. It just seems to me that a system like this is trying to incentivize different things and letting enforcement get to complicated. Just keep it simple and it won't be so bad. I think the point of these lanes should be to improve traffic flow by increasing the number of occupants in the cars. Electric vehicles simply do not achieve that. That said in a way I don't think this system is too terrible. It's a little funny, but it's at least fairly simple. But it requires enforcement. I've done a lot of driving throughout California recently and it seems like half the people in carpool lanes shouldn't be there. And apparently I'm the last person in the state that doesn't roll across the solid double lanes whenever I feel like it. Never have I seen a cop care about this stuff.
- Handytinge 5y ago
  For anyone else not North American, "HOV" stands for "High Occupancy Vehicle".
- gridspy 5y ago
  Both tolls or the requirement to have an "expensive car" (electric) quickly become discrimination against poor people. Possibly unintentional discrimination. I think it should be simple occupancy based only - vehicles with 3 occupants or more only.
  - dublinben 5y ago
    Scarce goods being expensive isn't discriminatory. Even if it were, the most direct way to address it would be to just give money to people who lack it, or offer a means-tested discount. "Poor people" already drive less than higher income people, are more likely to depend on public transportation and suffer the consequences of living near polluted highways. They will disproportionately benefit from anti-congestion policies like tolling highway lanes.
mrsuprawsm 5y ago
This system seems quite stupid. Surely the expenditure could be better invested in public transit. Not only is public transit orders of magnitude more effective in terms of people moved per hour, it's also much more equitable.
- gridspy 5y ago
  Perhaps it reflects the transport choices of the lawmakers. They spend more time frustrated on the 101 than they spend attempting to use a bus or train.
  - mrsuprawsm 5y ago
    That could well be the case, and I would personally argue that that is a good part of the problem. For example, in Europe, it's quite normal for lawmakers to cycle or take public transport to the office. Obviously, some/most of it is performative to present a public image of the politician as a "man of the people", but it does expose them to the problems of the lay person as opposed to sitting in a chauffeured car. Needless to say, our public transport systems (and cycling) are much more sane, affordable, and efficient options here. They are by no means perfect, but they are a damn good way to get around in most cities. It doesn't mean you can't or don't drive, but often driving is massively slower or less convenient (especially inside the urban core), so you jump on the metro/train/tram or bicycle to get where you need to be.
- scarby2 5y ago
  I'm not sure about the 101 project in SF but we have exactly this in southern california and believe it or not it's been great. They integrated the HOV lanes into a Bus Rapid Transit system and use demand pricing to ensure that the lanes almost always stay moving. AFAIK the project expenditure is covered by people who want to get there faster. In this case the city/Metro gets to deploy more public transit without having to pay for it, and without having to charge riders more money. There are plans for expansion of the system as it's been very popular.
- qbasic_forever 5y ago
  The public doesn't want to fund mass transit with higher taxes, etc. so we get these toll systems. Up in Seattle there are similar mixed toll and high occupancy vehicle lanes that were built to help fund expansion of light rail systems, bridges, etc.
ctime 5y ago
1) I drove from San Mateo to Sunnyvale daily for years pre-pandemic using the HOV lane (Took a bus, carpooled etc) . So happy to not live in the Bay Area anymore (for many reasons, but that aside) - that commute would be absolutely awful now assuming everyone goes back to the office and everything goes back to normal. It used to take 45 mins anyways on busy days with the carpool lane. I'm not convinced everything will really ever be back to normal in the bay area and full RTO is a pipe dream (also an aside), but that traffic will still be a mess because bay area. Now everyone can pay to play and probably only buses will ever be able to use it (plus all the cheaters! - cheaters are everywhere). Note that one of the "selling points" of the express lanes was that during peak congestion, the HOV lane becomes "Bus Only" to give preference to the most effecient mode of transport (8+ passenger busses/vans iirc) 2) If you have a Clean Air Vehicle, you need to order a special CAV toll tag to avoid paying full fees. Some freeways are still free, others will give you a discount. This link has the full details https://www.bayareafastrak.org/en/support/clean-air-vehicle.shtml https://www.bayareafastrak.org/en/support/clean-air-vehicle....
fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
Congestion pricing is one of those policies that can greatly benefit society, but causes so much anger that it’s very hard to implement.
- brimble 5y ago
  I think it bothers people when they're not getting to choose when or where they drive, which is much of the time (commute, taking kids to school, that kind of thing). It feels like being punished for decisions other people made.
- autoexec 5y ago
  I don't think punishing people for wanting to get somewhere is a benefit for society. Congestion is a failure of the infrastructure to efficiently meet demand, not the fault of people for simply wanting things when others also want them. Instead of punishing individuals who already suffer by being stuck using ineffective systems that can't handle the load, a far better solution would be updating those systems or replacing them with something that can adequately handle the traffic at its peak.
  - fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
    Certainly, we should upgrade our infrastructure to improve capacity. Due to induced demand, there will still be traffic at peak times. Congestion pricing can shape demand to improve utilization and reduce travel times, which improves the ROI of those investments.
    - autoexec 5y ago
      I think most people would rather not deal with excessive traffic and crowded roads and wouldn't if given the choice. Many just don't really get much choice in the commuting patterns they have. If your job requires you to be somewhere at a specific time, you're going to go. If you have to pick up your kid at a specific place and time you'll be there. Most of us are already constantly trying to optimize for less traffic and travel time. Those of us with limited options to do that suffer enough as it is. Adding more pain to those with few, if any, other options isn't helping. Better to update existing roads, improve alternate routes, and if needed build new roads to attract people away from over-crowded ones (peak times or not). Give people better alternatives and I promise they'll take them. We're now routinely using satellites to try to find ways to avoid traffic congestion. We all want it so badly we're resorting to space computers for help! This clearly isn't something you have beat people with a stick to do and it does no good to punish the people who don't have better alternatives available. We really can just put away the stick.
sly010 5y ago
This happened to me. I am unfamiliar with the area, the rental company didn't mention it so I ended up receiving a ticket for not setting my transponder correctly. They even send my a picture on the ticket clearly showed me and my wife (2 people!) in the car. I ended up contesting it and they dropped it (first offense I guess). I bet they are relying on the fact that most people will not fight it. It's a stupid system.
hereforphone 5y ago
California is a confusing place to drive. Trying to find out how to pay tolls online was confusing. One bridge had a "stop and pay tolls!" sign, but no one was stopping, and I found out later they issue the toll online. This was all mostly in the Bay area on a recent visit.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
bubblethink 5y ago
The fast track on 101 is such a scam. The old HOV lanes were free during off-peak hours. Fast track is 5 AM to 8 PM. You'll see a few miles of bumbper to bumper traffic around Palo Alto while the fast track lanes are empty in the afternoon.
- Melatonic 5y ago
  Yea this is a bit of a crapshoot. Weren't the old HOV lanes not THAT different though in hours? At least its not like Orange County where they have WHOLE FREEWAYS that are fastrack ONLY. All day, everyday, with no free lanes in sight.
  - bubblethink 5y ago
    Old HOV lanes were 7 AM - 9 AM and 4 PM - 7 PM or something like that. So outside of those hours, everything was pretty load balanced, which makes sense. This move seems to be more about revenue maximization than reducing traffic. They haven't even completed the full stretch from SF to south bay, but once they do, it would cost about $10 to do that run. Add $5 in gas, and you are looking at $15 per trip, one-way. Tax dollars at work.
    - thereisnospork 5y ago
      Nothing like the government rent-seeking on existing under-provisioned infrastructure instead of doing their job (adequately provisioning infrastructure).
- pishpash 5y ago
  Seems like they should lower the congestion toll there. Easy problem to observe and solve.
Melatonic 5y ago
We have had these same transponders in the Los Angeles area for years and years but I do not think they do this with the number - I always thought it seemed odd that there was almost no accountability to cheating the system. Also - does the CHP even have time to enforce this? At least where I live they are plenty busy with more pressing matters. But maybe on the Peninsula they have more time. As someone who grewup in the Bay Area and now lives in Los Angeles I thought it was funny when she talked about how to tell the invaders (based on how they say either "101" or "the 101"). The better test for this (in my opinion) is if someone says they live / work in "the valley" or the peninsula. If someone says "the 101" that just means they are from socal vs somewhere else. It always cracks me up when someone tries to humblebrag by saying "oh me? I live in The Valley" because the OG locals are internally rolling their eyes.
- omoikane 5y ago
  It always cracks me up when someone mentions "the 101" and then someone else would immediately respond "found the Southern Californian!" I thought this phrasing of "invaders" was a real gem.
  - Melatonic 5y ago
    Yea that was funny - the reason socal people say "the" before freeways is that for a long time many of them were officially labeled things like "the San Diego Freeway" (along with a number). So it just fell into place after that.
nextstep 5y ago
It’s incredible the lengths to which the US will go to duct tape together their 1950’s era, individual-rider transportation system. The solution is mass transit, but this offends the entrenched industries (auto companies and adjacent) that control the government so you get nonsense like this.
punnerud 5y ago
Why do you need a switch, you could have a webpage/app where you change the settings. That way you don’t have the hardware cost/risk. They manage to give you instant feedback if you have paid your bill, so I don’t see why this could not work the same.
- jandrese 5y ago
  Who the hell wants to open up their phone and futz around with an app or the browser when someone else gets in the car? Plus you have to open it up to check the current setting. The physical switch is better.
anonymousiam 5y ago
"How does the system know what to charge you? Well, you either have an old-style toll transponder that always bills you as a solo driver, or you have a new-style transponder with a 1/2/3+ switch that tells the road how to handle you. " I have two "old-style" transponders with a 1/2/3+ switch, and one "new-style" passive RFID tag/sticker that has no switch, so I have no idea how they are determining what to charge me. Perhaps they are using AI/camera hardware to count the occupants now.
- TechBro8615 5y ago
  Or maybe you'll escape enforcement until they deprecate the current system and mandate the new-style transponder as part of your next vehicle registration renewal. In general, there is little upside to being an early adopter of systems your creditors seem excited about — for examples, see: smart meters, EzPass lanes, facial recognition for taxpayer identity verification, etc. I prefer to stick with existing systems as long as possible...
JJMcJ 5y ago
+1 on calling out "The 101" as an LA-ism.
yeswecatan 5y ago
Can't you just put your Fastrak on 3+ and use HOV for free?
cbanek 5y ago
Ah yes, how could this fail you ask? A friend of mine would use the carpool lanes on the 520 bridge in Seattle, where there's a pretty strictly enforced 3+ carpool lane (so that the bus can jump the traffic), she would routinely get pulled over for not having enough people in her car. Once the cop looks back at the driver though, they realize there's two babies in car seats in the back. Happened to her all the time.
Stratoscope 5y ago
The funniest express lane sign I've seen is at the entrance to northbound 101 from San Antonio Road in Mountain View. When I drove by, it read (paraphrased) "Toll to Embarcadero: $1.30". Embarcadero Road (and Oregon Expressway) is the very next exit. The San Antonio entrance puts you directly onto the exit-only lane for Embarcadero/Oregon. This lane is 1.2 miles from entrance to exit, and it's rarely backed up even if the rest of the freeway is, as there is no stoplight after you get off the freeway. So most rational drivers making that short trip just stay in the exit-only lane. But now the sign tells me I can use the express lane for $1.30! What a deal. In the space of 1.2 miles, I can cut across four lanes of traffic to get to the express lane, and then cut back across four lanes again to barely make the exit. This will make me a popular driver, won't it?
- jedberg 5y ago
  That sign isn't for you, it's for the people already in the lane to know how much the next section costs.
  - Stratoscope 5y ago
    This isn't one of those big overhead signs above the express lanes, it's a little sign at eye level to the right of the onramp, before you get onto the freeway. It's only visible to drivers entering the freeway from San Antonio. That's what made it so funny: it listed the one toll trip you would never take from there. I think I recall that "Embarcadero" was in the display and not painted on, so they could fix it to give a more practical destination.
jedberg 5y ago
My friend is in Highway Patrol. He absolutely hates these lanes because they are impossible to enforce for this very reason. There are a ton of rules and exemptions and he has to try and verify that the number on the sign matches the number of people in the car in a split second. He basically admitted to me that it's based on the honor system, he has no real way to enforce that the number is correct unless it's a convertible with the top down. > Southern California has it too, but they call it "the" 101 I moved here 26 years ago but I still call it "the 101" (but I call all the other freeways by just their number, except the 5 because we have that in SoCal too). So yeah, I guess you can use it to detect I learned to drive in LA, but I've lived more than 1/2 my life here, so if I'm an invader, I'm definitely playing the long con!
- Stratoscope 5y ago
  And then if your friend makes that call, he has to conduct a traffic stop. On the freeway! So in the interest of penalizing someone who committed no safety infraction, only a financial one, we create a dangerous situation for everyone on the freeway, including the officer. > In 1998, California Highway Patrol officer Scott Greenly was struck by a car and killed while issuing a ticket on the shoulder of Route 85; thereafter the portion between Quito Road and Prospect Road in the City of Saratoga was named the CHP Officer Scott M. Greenly Memorial Freeway. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_Route_85#Other_unique_features_and_events https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_Route_85#Othe... Regarding "the 101", I always wondered why it's "101" here and "the 101" in SoCal. According to an article I read, it's because the original Los Angeles area freeways didn't have numbers, just names: the Pasadena Freeway, the Ventura Freeway, etc. It only made sense to use "the". When they got numbers later, the habit of using "the" stuck around. In the Bay Area, the freeways got numbers first. They do have names too (like the stretch of 85 mentioned above), but mostly no one uses their names or even know them. So there never was a habit of using "the" with the number.
  - jedberg 5y ago
    I was always told by people outside of LA that the reason was because in LA the freeways are so important they're revered like religious idols so they get the definite article. But my parents grew up through the transition you describe and back up what you said, that they all had names before numbers. I was a kid in the early 80s and back then all the traffic reports on the radio were still by freeway name, so I learned them all that way too.
eyeareque 5y ago
I am curious what happens if you modify the transponder to send something other than 1,2,3?
icodestuff 5y ago
The express lanes on 580 do this too, but with one, two, or three lights, instead of a numeral.

283 points by zdw 5y ago

us0r 5y ago

I just learned about "confidential plates" the other day. Interesting read. https://sdrostra.com/1-5-million-private-ca-cars-have-ticket-proof-confidential-licence-plates/ https://sdrostra.com/1-5-million-private-ca-cars-have-ticket....

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

71a54xd 5y ago

I recently rented a vehicle on Turo in CA for three days and racked up maybe three toll charges - even though I followed the law and did my best to avoid HOV lanes when I didn't have enough occupants. I was greeted the following month with a *$320* ticket. The fees themselves totalled to no more than $12 which I would've been totally okay paying, but the overage fee for non-payment (which how was I supposed to know the owner wasn't watching the records for his vehicle - per Turo rules?) were over *$100 per charge*. To call this predatory is an understatement. Also, a word of warning to anyone using Turo, they usually indicate that "the driver is liable for all toll charges while driving the vehicle" which can screw you if you don't confirm in writing with the owner if they're watching toll records. Always settle via the Turo app, many owners will try to settle with you directly and try to force you to pay the full fee. Fortunately, I was able to get slightly less ripped off and pay 40% of the charge by settling through the Turo app. I love CA and a lot of my friends live there, but goodness are they chalking up reasons for me to never live there again.

BoorishBears 5y ago
I don't use Turo anymore, no point at all. Back in the day Turo was mostly people with somewhat interesting cars who wanted to share them, and rental agencies had nothing interesting, and the pricing was reasonable. - Now a $60 a day car can come out to more than a $100 a day car because of extended insurance for specific models, Turo fees, weird discount structures, massive deposits (One $70 a day car had an $700 deposit). And there's no way to actually account for that in searching, the estimated price never includes any of this. So you're left to randomly click around and "guess" which cars don't all belong to the same guy tacking on a massive deposit, or asking for some money on the side. It all just feels incredibly sleazy, and wreaks of Turo's model essentially failing since private owners care more about their cars than an agency, and they likely had to deal with a ton more claims. There are also a ton of deeply unsafe cars on there now, especially older non-enthusiast cars. Rental agencies might not be the best about safety, but they also won't keep a 100k mile structurally rusted out econobox laying around... - I just went through that last week and decided to go with Sixt. I got a rental "A5 or similar" (convertible 4 series was the option I took at the counter), and for 12 dollars a day I get unlimited tolls in CA.
- djrogers 5y ago
  100k miles is ‘deeply unsafe’? You can’t evaluate structural rust in a photo, so if you’re deciding safety based on mileage you have a very unreal sense of safe vs unsafe.
  - wcfields 5y ago
    I've never had an unsafe car persay, but when working with a small budget you'll end up with a high-mileage 2010 Toyota Corolla. (Turo says "Cars that have more than 130,000 mi/200,000 km may remain listed as long as they’re in excellent condition") [1] What I've noticed on Turo is now there's a large mix of 'big' players: Unregulated car rental biz that have 10+ beaters of Echos/Sparks/Minis/Focus, or, a buy-here/pay-here used car dealership that's renting out everything on the lot. [1] https://support.turo.com/hc/en-us/articles/203991940-Vehicles-we-accept https://support.turo.com/hc/en-us/articles/203991940-Vehicle...
  - BoorishBears 5y ago
    That's not what I wrote, but you're certainly free to misread my sentence and go off on a strawman. https://youtu.be/hQlrGGJodgQ https://youtu.be/hQlrGGJodgQ 100k miles doesn't make it unsafe, the rust does. 100k miles is mentioned because a 50k mile car is less likely to have potential critical rust, and rental companies are selling cars at 50k miles on average. Of course now this is the part where you say 50k mile cars can have rust too! They sure can, but where is rust worse, at 50k miles or after an additional 50k miles? - It's not just rust either, as miles tick up there's plenty of maintenance that's supposed to be done that private renters making a buck won't. Your rental agency isn't going to pick up a high milage 3 series that's one good highway trip away from shredding its serpentine belt because no one ever fixed a single oil leak it had... - They're also not going to do what my Turo renter did in Miami: Give you a car with a brake light and clear metal on metal sounds and tell you "oh, that's ok, the sensor is just broken"
  - Dylan16807 5y ago
    It says "100k mile structurally rusted out" is deeply unsafe. Did we read the same comment?
Johnny555 5y ago
but goodness are they chalking up reasons for me to never live in there again California doesn't set Turo's toll policies, and many states have implemented automated tolling, so your list of states to live in in going to get smaller and smaller. I think the biggest problem with automated tolling is that every state has their own independent system -- the federal government should enforce one standard, so I can use my toll reader on any toll road in the country. Oh hey, I was looking to see if there was a multi-state toll tag and it sounds like the US government did pass a law requiring interoperability, but this linked website doesn't appear to sell this "nationalpass", so I don't know what happened to the law: https://www.nationalpass.net/ https://www.nationalpass.net/ Toll Interoperability by 2016 H.R.4348 - MAP-21 In 2012, Congress passed the Moving Ahead for Progress in the 21st Century Act (MAP-21) to ease the burden of tolled interstate travel by providing motorists the convenience of a single toll tag and account.
- bigbillheck 5y ago
  > every state has their own independent system -- the federal government should enforce one standard, so I can use my toll reader on any toll road in the country. My EZ-Pass works in 19 states.
  - brewdad 5y ago
    And I have a transponder for the Seattle area that I use about 3-5 times a year. I don't live in Washington but I do visit regularly. It doesn't work anywhere else but when I need it, I need it. A nationwide standard really is needed.
- bbarn 5y ago
  I don't think interstate highways should be tolled, period. They were paid for decades ago, and maintenance should be covered by the existing gas tax. I am not opposed to convenience highways in metro areas being tolled, as long as there is a non-toll option that is reasonably similar in non-rush hour times. As it stands the major Chicago to New York and New York to DC routes are tolls almost the entire way. The nation paid for those routes, and now pays to use them as well.
Melatonic 5y ago
Is that just Turo screwing you over? In SoCal as long as you have a fastrack account associated with the vehicle/license plate even if you have no transponder your account still gets charged the normal fee + a small additional courtesy fee. I believe the additional fee might be 6$ which does not seem ridiculous (to me at least). To me this more just sounds like the owner of that vehicle is an idiot and never registered the plate with fastrack.

roflchoppa 5y ago

Man I really hate the new HOV lanes, there are too many negligent drivers that drive below the speed limit, at least with a carpool lane you could overtake.

core-utility 5y ago
I'd frequently get stuck behind buses, box trucks, and vehicles towing trailers. It's astounding how the latter two are allowed. I somewhat understand municipal buses in an effort to ensure more people ride, and it wouldn't be as annoying if it weren't coupled with the other two.
- vondur 5y ago
  Wow, I just checked, and you can legally tow travel trailers in the TollRoads, except for the 91 expressway here in SoCal. https://thetollroads.com/help/faq/396 https://thetollroads.com/help/faq/396
slg 5y ago
Is this a Bay Area specific thing? The terms "HOV lanes" and "carpool lanes" are used interchangeably in my experience. Are you just calling out separated lanes? The reason for the separation is that traffic in those lanes is often moving much faster than the other lanes which makes it very dangerous to give people the possibility of pulling into that lane unexpectedly. The ideal HOV/carpool lanes should have two lanes to allow passing and be separated from the rest of the lanes to promote safety. The 110 in Los Angeles is a great example and it uses the same transponders with switches that the article is discussing.
- ddoolin 5y ago
  In my experience, the vast majority of HOV/carpool lanes are single lanes, although some stretches like the 110 and the 91 are doubled up and are a much better experience. It's hard to believe the 405, of all places, is a single HOV lane and it bunches up pretty much continuously. Although, on the 91, I don't know that it uses transponder settings since there's a dedicated "3+" lane when you approach reading areas, which are situated right in front of CHP buildings (so they can see if you're really 3+?)

Spooky23 5y ago

That sounds pretty awful. As much as the DC metro area is a hellscape their auction style access to HOV lanes is probably the most straightforward. It’s nice in that you know how fucked you are based on the price. I remember passing through once and one section had like a $38 toll, I just got off the highway and grabbed a burger.

rzimmerman 5y ago

One thing I love about driving in America is that (in a sense) everyone is equal. Whether you drive a brand new Ferrari or a 1990 Toyota, you still wait in the same traffic. HOV/carpool lanes are an understandable conceit to incentivize good behaviors, but the idea that you can pay money to skip traffic just feels awful to me. Those transponders are cool though. I have a different one for my electric car with a CAV sticker which lets me use some of the SoCal lanes alone.

slg 5y ago
>the idea that you can pay money to skip traffic just feels awful to me. This is no different from any toll road except the toll road and the free road are right next to each other and are therefore perfect substitutes with the only difference being the amount of traffic on each.
- toast0 5y ago
  Yeah, toll roads don't feel right either. Of course, it also didn't feel right to buy a PHEV with carpool stickers, but I did it when my carpool partner took leave. Free charging at work was nice too (thanks Mark), although I was happier when I could take Caltrain.
marcinzm 5y ago
>but the idea that you can pay money to skip traffic just feels awful to me. Plenty of places in the US have whole highways that require payment to use. Same for most tunnels and bridges that you can go around but it takes significantly longer.
- SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
  Yeah, I was going to point out - aren't toll roads a thing?
  - rzimmerman 5y ago
    I’m in California where toll roads are more rare. I also dislike tolls on roads, though I understand the pragmatism.

gnicholas 5y ago

Note that you have to have one of the newer transponders to be able to indicate how many occupants you have. If you have an old-school transponder it assumes you just have two occupants, and you pay the highest rate. I recently ordered a new one, and it appears to be free, assuming you send back the previous transponder.

jeffbee 5y ago
I got my Fastrak Flex in 2017. They aren't that new.
- gnicholas 5y ago
  Great! Some folks have had transponders for a decade or more, as they don't need replacing very often. AFAIK, this is the first time that there has been a reason to get a new transponder if your existing transponder is still operational. It's also not communicated very well to customers. I've talked with many people who wondered how Fastrak knows how many people are in your vehicle. They were unaware that there are new transponders with a toggle.
  - jkubicek 5y ago
    I didn't know there was a new transponder until just this moment.
    - gnicholas 5y ago
      BTW there's also a special version for 'clean air vehicles'. But it's not for all clean air vehicles, and I think my plugin hybrid doesn't qualify. Confusing!
    - browningstreet 5y ago
      Neither did I. Been using the same once since... 2008. And I log in periodically to check charges and change my address and update CC and was never notified that maybe I should consider upgrading.

causi 5y ago

CHP could roll up on them and give them a ticket. I suspect almost everyone could get out of it by claiming to forget what setting they had it on, or that they'd flipped it but the switch didn't go all the way over, or it was sticky, etc.

function_seven 5y ago
I suspect the cop will have heard all of these explanations a hundred times by the time they pull you over, and will write the ticket anyway. :)
- bradlys 5y ago
  Depends on how pretty you are and how much you cry.
  - Fatnino 5y ago
    I'm scrawny with a beard. How much do I have to cry?
  - JohnBooty 5y ago
    A few years ago a cop pulled me over and I gave him my license and registration, the usual song and dance. When he returned to my vehicle he looked at me closely and politely asked me (a non-trans male) if I was aware my driver's license specified that I was a woman. You could tell he was trying to walk the line between possibly offending me and alerting me to a fairly important clerical error. I had no idea. The DMV screwed that one up somehow when I moved to that state and they granted my new license. We both had a pretty good laugh... I said, well, does that mean I can flirt my way out of this ticket? Unfortunately (or fortunately?) the answer was an amused "sorry, no."
  - bradlys 5y ago
    Find it funny people are downvoting this. It's a known thing. If you have any pretty friends - you can get out of tickets very easily by just being pretty and making something up. You won't have this privilege as an unattractive person. No different than being pulled over and judged differently because of your race. Police are incredibly biased.

FullyFunctional 5y ago

Ough, this touches a nerve. The Fastrak system is atrocious and I have been battling it for years. Let me count the ways: - They took my CC number and just kept replenishing $25 every so often even though it had a big balance already. Thankfully my card expired so now I'm sloooowly (don't drive much anymore) working my way through the $100+ credit on my account. - It is so hard to check and contest charges. I had to sent in my complaint with snail mail and IIRC it took a month before I got a reply back that requested information that I already wrote in the first letter doesn't apply. I gave up at this point. - There is _NO_ way to check the transponder short of just using it and waiting a week for the event to show up on the bill. My windshield was apparently blocking radio transmissions (I know why, don't tell me) and experimenting with a different location has a crazy long cycle time due to the above. There days I guess I could do it with a car driving behind me reading what the sign say, but that only works when there isn't much traffic. I hate Fastrak.

benlivengood 5y ago
It was nice that the intermediate version beeped when getting pinged; the new flex version (with number of riders switch) is silent again. Maybe it's time to hack a tone into it.
- erwincoumans 5y ago
  The new Flex transponder (with 1,2,3 switch) does beep for me when passing a bridge toll port (84, 92 etc), not on the highway 101 lane.
  - outworlder 5y ago
    How "new" is it? The new ones are not supposed to beep. https://www.bayareafastrak.org/en/support/toll-tag-basics-faq8.shtml https://www.bayareafastrak.org/en/support/toll-tag-basics-fa...
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

mixmastamyk 5y ago

Next question is who is buying and selling this information?

russellbeattie 5y ago

Get used to it. In the next 25 years, all the gas stations are going to close and all that gas tax revenue will need to be replaced, as that's how the roads are maintained. Gas tax is a usage tax, so to replace it with something equivalent, we'll need to be able to track our vehicle's road usage. Maybe cars will just self report, as new cars will just be a consumer electronics device with wheels and a broadband connection anyways. But more than likely the solution will be backwards compatible one at first, like all the license plates becoming e-License plates, with eInk screens and a Fast-Trak style responder for tracking tolls. Extrapolating on this, the idea that you could get into a vehicle and drive along public roads without those roads making a record of your passage is one that will slowly go away. Get used to it. Seriously.

rootusrootus 5y ago
They could just make truckers pay it all. They do the vast majority of damage to the roads as it is. For side roads we could just pay the old fashioned way with normal taxes. People without cars still benefit from the roads existence.
- idiotsecant 5y ago
  This is a good example of policy you get when the people making policy don't understand (or understand but don't want to understand) physics but do understand that the transportation lobby is well-funded and well-connected. On one hand they get a bunch of kickbacks for their reelection war-chest and some roads fail 5 years after their re-election is over anyway and someone else will be blamed for it. On the other hand they directly fund their opponent who is unlikely to turn down those dollars, possibly fail in their reelection bid, and successfully save some roads that everyone will just assume would have lasted anyway. It's not hard to see that it's practically impossible for any other outcome, the system is practically designed to create this kind of situation.
- myself248 5y ago
  Agreed. Road damage scales as the _fourth power_ of the axle weight. That's bonkers, you don't see that exponent in many phenomena. The question is how to move the funds around, as state taxes and road funding stop at state borders, but vehicles don't. And of course states will have a patchwork of registration rules, and won't share money with each other. So the trucking industry will lobby some state to be a tax haven, and all trucks will just be registered there. If only we had some sort of organization that allows states to solve issues that happen between states, like a larger government function...

Bud 5y ago

There seem to be some negative comments about this, but in my opinion this is exactly how this should work. Even better would to have one of these signs up before the enforced toll area begins, to remind drivers what they have their transponder set to, in case they "forgot" to set it properly. Still better would be for the transponder to beep once for the 1-person setting, twice for the 2-person setting, etc., although this could get a bit annoying.

jeffbee 5y ago
The newest transponders (since 2020) don't ever beep, because they are totally passive and have no battery.
- Bud 5y ago
  Cool, I didn't know the details of that.
- modeless 5y ago
  Thanks, I was wondering why my new one didn't beep. No battery makes so much more sense.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

fotta 5y ago

You can also add your license plate number to your Fastrak account so if you don't have the transponder in your car it'll just charge back to your account via the plate. Obviously doesn't work if you want to carpool.

spike021 5y ago

I've been really frustrated by this change, especially on 237. I used to drive in the faster lane on weekdays around noon to get around slower traffic by myself because that was legal. Now I'd need to pay for the privilege. If I were confident that at least the money would go to road surface maintenance, I'd be partially okay with it. But I'm not, so this is even more ridiculous. 101 has some incredibly bad road surface stretches. 237 is 2 or 3 lanes for most stretches, and periodically there will be clusters of cars going 5-10mph under the limit and now I can't pass them unless I want to pay a Fastrak fee. Mind-boggling, except that they know people here can "afford" it so they think it gives them free-reign to charge.

downrightmike 5y ago
When stuck in between and immovable object and an unstoppable force, yield. IE stop driving so much. I've cut my driving down 90% and I am happier, its crazy how driving makes people upset.
- cscurmudgeon 5y ago
  Not everyone has that luxury. What if you are not rich enough to live near work or your kids school? Just walk/bike/etc. is a form let them eat cake.
  - downrightmike 5y ago
    You change where you work or what you do and move somewhere you can make it.
- spike021 5y ago
  So I can take a train with my dog up the 280 corridor? Ah, right. Caltrain is only on the inside, 101 corridor; also, last I checked it doesn't allow non-service animals. So...
  - downrightmike 5y ago
    Why do you have to go anywhere to have fun with your dog? Dogs are easy, they just want attention.

formerkrogeremp 5y ago

As someone who's never heard of FasTrack before, this all sounds a little dystopian. In my state, we don't have toll roads, but our roads are pretty awful.

boobsbr 5y ago
It gives off "Snow Crash" vibes.

jonnycomputer 5y ago

By making cheating public, but without the public being able to punish defectors, you might actually increase the number of people who cheat, especially if they don't see them getting caught. Sometimes you don't want to give up ambiguity.

mataug 5y ago

I know its easier said than done, but gosh this is some absurd complexity for dealing with a problem of congestion, wouldn't it just be cheaper/safer/simpler/eco-friendly to offer better+faster public transport in the long run ? These kinda solutions just feel like band-aids on top of band-aids when what is really needed are sutures(stitches) ? I'm curious though, are there startups trying to solve this problem of public transport ? Just like the many startups focused on trying to perfect self-driving cars. PS self-driving cars cannot solve traffic congestion

ultimoo 5y ago
Building better+faster public transport brings orders of magnitude of absurd complexity, compared to implementing something like this. I do agree that public transit solves many of these problems in the long run, and I hope we get there some day.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

ridaj 5y ago

Why bother! In 10 years in California I have never seen anyone get pulled over for carpool lane violations, but pretty much every time I'm on the road, I witness one.

willidiots 5y ago
Exactly. The whole system seems hilariously naïve if you have any real-world driving experience in the bay area. I drove 205/580->680->880->237 daily for years, one of the first express corridors. People constantly crossing over the double-white line, intentionally exiting the lane at each transponder to skip tolls, driving on the shoulder, driving past a huge line of cars so they can bully their way in at the last moment. CHP seems to let most of that slide - they're busy with the massive accidents that constantly result. I highly doubt they're going to care about 1 vs 2 vs 3, and I feel for them if they're expected to.
- ryandrake 5y ago
  The last two years have shown us that people will routinely and casually break the rules merely to avoid mild discomfort, even while lives are on the line and people are dying. I don’t see how these voluntary transponders are even remotely effective.
BurningFrog 5y ago
How can you tell what cars get pulled over for?
- rconti 5y ago
  You've really gotta try to get pulled over here. I just broke my streak, been in the Bay Area for 20 years but finally got pulled over last year. First time ever interacting with police at the side of the road in California. 20 years. Lest you think I'm a saint, I got 4 tickets the year I moved away from Seattle alone.
- mywittyname 5y ago
  Presumably, OP rarely sees anyone pulled over. So cause is irrelevant.

godman_8 5y ago

https://web.archive.org/web/20220310040354/http://rachelbythebay.com/w/2022/03/09/toll/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220310040354/http://rachelbyth...

ta988 5y ago
Any reason you are archiving it?
- godman_8 5y ago
  It wasn't loading for me, figured I'd share if others were having the problem.
  - ta988 5y ago
    Thanks!

ma2rten 5y ago

How does this work for clean air vehicles? Do they still need the transponder?

01100011 5y ago
Yes. You need a CAV tag. I started applying for one and then I noticed they wanted to pre-charge my credit card $25. I may not use an HOV lane for months and yet they want to take my money now for some reason.

jxramos 5y ago

I can't make heads or tails of why fasttrack has those messages "Tolling Begins Spring 2021", "Tolling Begins Spring 2022". Is this is a deliberately misleading message to get people to think that the system is not fully deployed and that the public is getting a courtesy heads up to start watching their lanes soon because they will be charged once the tolling actually begins? The tolling has already begun, why do they bother displaying these messages?

pishpash 5y ago
Has it actually begun?

CogitoCogito 5y ago

I feel like a simpler system would be to just charge the same for vehicles using these lanes regardless of occupants. A higher cost will incentivize more occupants anyway. Of course in that system there would be no HOV lane incentive to drive electric vehicles, but so what? They have already been subsidized through tax breaks and we could always incentivize them further by increasing gas taxes. It just seems to me that a system like this is trying to incentivize different things and letting enforcement get to complicated. Just keep it simple and it won't be so bad. I think the point of these lanes should be to improve traffic flow by increasing the number of occupants in the cars. Electric vehicles simply do not achieve that. That said in a way I don't think this system is too terrible. It's a little funny, but it's at least fairly simple. But it requires enforcement. I've done a lot of driving throughout California recently and it seems like half the people in carpool lanes shouldn't be there. And apparently I'm the last person in the state that doesn't roll across the solid double lanes whenever I feel like it. Never have I seen a cop care about this stuff.

Handytinge 5y ago
For anyone else not North American, "HOV" stands for "High Occupancy Vehicle".
gridspy 5y ago
Both tolls or the requirement to have an "expensive car" (electric) quickly become discrimination against poor people. Possibly unintentional discrimination. I think it should be simple occupancy based only - vehicles with 3 occupants or more only.
- dublinben 5y ago
  Scarce goods being expensive isn't discriminatory. Even if it were, the most direct way to address it would be to just give money to people who lack it, or offer a means-tested discount. "Poor people" already drive less than higher income people, are more likely to depend on public transportation and suffer the consequences of living near polluted highways. They will disproportionately benefit from anti-congestion policies like tolling highway lanes.

mrsuprawsm 5y ago

This system seems quite stupid. Surely the expenditure could be better invested in public transit. Not only is public transit orders of magnitude more effective in terms of people moved per hour, it's also much more equitable.

gridspy 5y ago
Perhaps it reflects the transport choices of the lawmakers. They spend more time frustrated on the 101 than they spend attempting to use a bus or train.
- mrsuprawsm 5y ago
  That could well be the case, and I would personally argue that that is a good part of the problem. For example, in Europe, it's quite normal for lawmakers to cycle or take public transport to the office. Obviously, some/most of it is performative to present a public image of the politician as a "man of the people", but it does expose them to the problems of the lay person as opposed to sitting in a chauffeured car. Needless to say, our public transport systems (and cycling) are much more sane, affordable, and efficient options here. They are by no means perfect, but they are a damn good way to get around in most cities. It doesn't mean you can't or don't drive, but often driving is massively slower or less convenient (especially inside the urban core), so you jump on the metro/train/tram or bicycle to get where you need to be.
scarby2 5y ago
I'm not sure about the 101 project in SF but we have exactly this in southern california and believe it or not it's been great. They integrated the HOV lanes into a Bus Rapid Transit system and use demand pricing to ensure that the lanes almost always stay moving. AFAIK the project expenditure is covered by people who want to get there faster. In this case the city/Metro gets to deploy more public transit without having to pay for it, and without having to charge riders more money. There are plans for expansion of the system as it's been very popular.
qbasic_forever 5y ago
The public doesn't want to fund mass transit with higher taxes, etc. so we get these toll systems. Up in Seattle there are similar mixed toll and high occupancy vehicle lanes that were built to help fund expansion of light rail systems, bridges, etc.

ctime 5y ago

1) I drove from San Mateo to Sunnyvale daily for years pre-pandemic using the HOV lane (Took a bus, carpooled etc) . So happy to not live in the Bay Area anymore (for many reasons, but that aside) - that commute would be absolutely awful now assuming everyone goes back to the office and everything goes back to normal. It used to take 45 mins anyways on busy days with the carpool lane. I'm not convinced everything will really ever be back to normal in the bay area and full RTO is a pipe dream (also an aside), but that traffic will still be a mess because bay area. Now everyone can pay to play and probably only buses will ever be able to use it (plus all the cheaters! - cheaters are everywhere). Note that one of the "selling points" of the express lanes was that during peak congestion, the HOV lane becomes "Bus Only" to give preference to the most effecient mode of transport (8+ passenger busses/vans iirc) 2) If you have a Clean Air Vehicle, you need to order a special CAV toll tag to avoid paying full fees. Some freeways are still free, others will give you a discount. This link has the full details https://www.bayareafastrak.org/en/support/clean-air-vehicle.shtml https://www.bayareafastrak.org/en/support/clean-air-vehicle....

fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago

Congestion pricing is one of those policies that can greatly benefit society, but causes so much anger that it’s very hard to implement.

brimble 5y ago
I think it bothers people when they're not getting to choose when or where they drive, which is much of the time (commute, taking kids to school, that kind of thing). It feels like being punished for decisions other people made.
autoexec 5y ago
I don't think punishing people for wanting to get somewhere is a benefit for society. Congestion is a failure of the infrastructure to efficiently meet demand, not the fault of people for simply wanting things when others also want them. Instead of punishing individuals who already suffer by being stuck using ineffective systems that can't handle the load, a far better solution would be updating those systems or replacing them with something that can adequately handle the traffic at its peak.
- fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
  Certainly, we should upgrade our infrastructure to improve capacity. Due to induced demand, there will still be traffic at peak times. Congestion pricing can shape demand to improve utilization and reduce travel times, which improves the ROI of those investments.
  - autoexec 5y ago
    I think most people would rather not deal with excessive traffic and crowded roads and wouldn't if given the choice. Many just don't really get much choice in the commuting patterns they have. If your job requires you to be somewhere at a specific time, you're going to go. If you have to pick up your kid at a specific place and time you'll be there. Most of us are already constantly trying to optimize for less traffic and travel time. Those of us with limited options to do that suffer enough as it is. Adding more pain to those with few, if any, other options isn't helping. Better to update existing roads, improve alternate routes, and if needed build new roads to attract people away from over-crowded ones (peak times or not). Give people better alternatives and I promise they'll take them. We're now routinely using satellites to try to find ways to avoid traffic congestion. We all want it so badly we're resorting to space computers for help! This clearly isn't something you have beat people with a stick to do and it does no good to punish the people who don't have better alternatives available. We really can just put away the stick.

sly010 5y ago

This happened to me. I am unfamiliar with the area, the rental company didn't mention it so I ended up receiving a ticket for not setting my transponder correctly. They even send my a picture on the ticket clearly showed me and my wife (2 people!) in the car. I ended up contesting it and they dropped it (first offense I guess). I bet they are relying on the fact that most people will not fight it. It's a stupid system.

hereforphone 5y ago

California is a confusing place to drive. Trying to find out how to pay tolls online was confusing. One bridge had a "stop and pay tolls!" sign, but no one was stopping, and I found out later they issue the toll online. This was all mostly in the Bay area on a recent visit.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

bubblethink 5y ago

The fast track on 101 is such a scam. The old HOV lanes were free during off-peak hours. Fast track is 5 AM to 8 PM. You'll see a few miles of bumbper to bumper traffic around Palo Alto while the fast track lanes are empty in the afternoon.

Melatonic 5y ago
Yea this is a bit of a crapshoot. Weren't the old HOV lanes not THAT different though in hours? At least its not like Orange County where they have WHOLE FREEWAYS that are fastrack ONLY. All day, everyday, with no free lanes in sight.
- bubblethink 5y ago
  Old HOV lanes were 7 AM - 9 AM and 4 PM - 7 PM or something like that. So outside of those hours, everything was pretty load balanced, which makes sense. This move seems to be more about revenue maximization than reducing traffic. They haven't even completed the full stretch from SF to south bay, but once they do, it would cost about $10 to do that run. Add $5 in gas, and you are looking at $15 per trip, one-way. Tax dollars at work.
  - thereisnospork 5y ago
    Nothing like the government rent-seeking on existing under-provisioned infrastructure instead of doing their job (adequately provisioning infrastructure).
pishpash 5y ago
Seems like they should lower the congestion toll there. Easy problem to observe and solve.

Melatonic 5y ago

We have had these same transponders in the Los Angeles area for years and years but I do not think they do this with the number - I always thought it seemed odd that there was almost no accountability to cheating the system. Also - does the CHP even have time to enforce this? At least where I live they are plenty busy with more pressing matters. But maybe on the Peninsula they have more time. As someone who grewup in the Bay Area and now lives in Los Angeles I thought it was funny when she talked about how to tell the invaders (based on how they say either "101" or "the 101"). The better test for this (in my opinion) is if someone says they live / work in "the valley" or the peninsula. If someone says "the 101" that just means they are from socal vs somewhere else. It always cracks me up when someone tries to humblebrag by saying "oh me? I live in The Valley" because the OG locals are internally rolling their eyes.

omoikane 5y ago
It always cracks me up when someone mentions "the 101" and then someone else would immediately respond "found the Southern Californian!" I thought this phrasing of "invaders" was a real gem.
- Melatonic 5y ago
  Yea that was funny - the reason socal people say "the" before freeways is that for a long time many of them were officially labeled things like "the San Diego Freeway" (along with a number). So it just fell into place after that.

nextstep 5y ago

It’s incredible the lengths to which the US will go to duct tape together their 1950’s era, individual-rider transportation system. The solution is mass transit, but this offends the entrenched industries (auto companies and adjacent) that control the government so you get nonsense like this.

punnerud 5y ago

Why do you need a switch, you could have a webpage/app where you change the settings. That way you don’t have the hardware cost/risk. They manage to give you instant feedback if you have paid your bill, so I don’t see why this could not work the same.

jandrese 5y ago
Who the hell wants to open up their phone and futz around with an app or the browser when someone else gets in the car? Plus you have to open it up to check the current setting. The physical switch is better.

anonymousiam 5y ago

"How does the system know what to charge you? Well, you either have an old-style toll transponder that always bills you as a solo driver, or you have a new-style transponder with a 1/2/3+ switch that tells the road how to handle you. " I have two "old-style" transponders with a 1/2/3+ switch, and one "new-style" passive RFID tag/sticker that has no switch, so I have no idea how they are determining what to charge me. Perhaps they are using AI/camera hardware to count the occupants now.

TechBro8615 5y ago
Or maybe you'll escape enforcement until they deprecate the current system and mandate the new-style transponder as part of your next vehicle registration renewal. In general, there is little upside to being an early adopter of systems your creditors seem excited about — for examples, see: smart meters, EzPass lanes, facial recognition for taxpayer identity verification, etc. I prefer to stick with existing systems as long as possible...

JJMcJ 5y ago

+1 on calling out "The 101" as an LA-ism.

yeswecatan 5y ago

Can't you just put your Fastrak on 3+ and use HOV for free?

cbanek 5y ago

Ah yes, how could this fail you ask? A friend of mine would use the carpool lanes on the 520 bridge in Seattle, where there's a pretty strictly enforced 3+ carpool lane (so that the bus can jump the traffic), she would routinely get pulled over for not having enough people in her car. Once the cop looks back at the driver though, they realize there's two babies in car seats in the back. Happened to her all the time.

Stratoscope 5y ago

The funniest express lane sign I've seen is at the entrance to northbound 101 from San Antonio Road in Mountain View. When I drove by, it read (paraphrased) "Toll to Embarcadero: $1.30". Embarcadero Road (and Oregon Expressway) is the very next exit. The San Antonio entrance puts you directly onto the exit-only lane for Embarcadero/Oregon. This lane is 1.2 miles from entrance to exit, and it's rarely backed up even if the rest of the freeway is, as there is no stoplight after you get off the freeway. So most rational drivers making that short trip just stay in the exit-only lane. But now the sign tells me I can use the express lane for $1.30! What a deal. In the space of 1.2 miles, I can cut across four lanes of traffic to get to the express lane, and then cut back across four lanes again to barely make the exit. This will make me a popular driver, won't it?

jedberg 5y ago
That sign isn't for you, it's for the people already in the lane to know how much the next section costs.
- Stratoscope 5y ago
  This isn't one of those big overhead signs above the express lanes, it's a little sign at eye level to the right of the onramp, before you get onto the freeway. It's only visible to drivers entering the freeway from San Antonio. That's what made it so funny: it listed the one toll trip you would never take from there. I think I recall that "Embarcadero" was in the display and not painted on, so they could fix it to give a more practical destination.

jedberg 5y ago

My friend is in Highway Patrol. He absolutely hates these lanes because they are impossible to enforce for this very reason. There are a ton of rules and exemptions and he has to try and verify that the number on the sign matches the number of people in the car in a split second. He basically admitted to me that it's based on the honor system, he has no real way to enforce that the number is correct unless it's a convertible with the top down. > Southern California has it too, but they call it "the" 101 I moved here 26 years ago but I still call it "the 101" (but I call all the other freeways by just their number, except the 5 because we have that in SoCal too). So yeah, I guess you can use it to detect I learned to drive in LA, but I've lived more than 1/2 my life here, so if I'm an invader, I'm definitely playing the long con!

Stratoscope 5y ago
And then if your friend makes that call, he has to conduct a traffic stop. On the freeway! So in the interest of penalizing someone who committed no safety infraction, only a financial one, we create a dangerous situation for everyone on the freeway, including the officer. > In 1998, California Highway Patrol officer Scott Greenly was struck by a car and killed while issuing a ticket on the shoulder of Route 85; thereafter the portion between Quito Road and Prospect Road in the City of Saratoga was named the CHP Officer Scott M. Greenly Memorial Freeway. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_Route_85#Other_unique_features_and_events https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_Route_85#Othe... Regarding "the 101", I always wondered why it's "101" here and "the 101" in SoCal. According to an article I read, it's because the original Los Angeles area freeways didn't have numbers, just names: the Pasadena Freeway, the Ventura Freeway, etc. It only made sense to use "the". When they got numbers later, the habit of using "the" stuck around. In the Bay Area, the freeways got numbers first. They do have names too (like the stretch of 85 mentioned above), but mostly no one uses their names or even know them. So there never was a habit of using "the" with the number.
- jedberg 5y ago
  I was always told by people outside of LA that the reason was because in LA the freeways are so important they're revered like religious idols so they get the definite article. But my parents grew up through the transition you describe and back up what you said, that they all had names before numbers. I was a kid in the early 80s and back then all the traffic reports on the radio were still by freeway name, so I learned them all that way too.

eyeareque 5y ago

I am curious what happens if you modify the transponder to send something other than 1,2,3?

icodestuff 5y ago

The express lanes on 580 do this too, but with one, two, or three lights, instead of a numeral.