28 ms·
A neurologist who hacked his brain and almost lost his mind (2016)
- ushakov 5y agocheck his Wikipedia edit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotrophic_electrode https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotrophic_electrode > In Neural Signals' implantations of six people, only one had a short lived episode of focal motor seizures and brain swelling leading to temporary weakness on the contralateral side of the body. > That person was me, Phil Kennedy. And here I am writing this addition to the Wikipedia
- tgsovlerkhgsel 5y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Neurotrophic_electrode&diff=prev&oldid=1004041998 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Neurotrophic_elec... (the IP has more edits like that to that article)
- saghm 5y agoDoesn't this violate the rule about "original research", or is that more of a meme and the actual policy more nuanced
- lima 5y agoYes. Good thing there's a Wired article now! Someone already fixed it up: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Neurotrophic_electrode&diff=1075842755&oldid=1015705137 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Neurotrophic_elec...
- sp332 5y agoThere are mods who would delete that in a heartbeat if they saw it.
- markdown 5y agoWhich is why Wikipedia is so western-centric. I could be the world expert in my field, say... coconut picking. I haven't published any papers about picking coconuts, and neither is it a subject that the newspapers want to write about. If I wrote wikipedia entry about picking coconuts, it would be immediately deleted because personal experience isn't a citable source. I need to tell some other fool about what I do, have him publish it in an article, and only then am I worthy of sharing my knowledge on wikipedia. I've seen absolute hogwash in wikipedia articles about my field (not really picking coconuts lol) but I can't correct them because I can't find an article where someone else has written about the topic.
- ciphol 5y agoHow do you distinguish between genuine personal experience (even assuming personal experience is reliable) and lies invented to promote an ideological narrative? Generally they can't be distinguished. Thus Wikipedia disallows both.
- dorfsmay 5y agoTrue for the England wikipedia, but the mods for the wikipedias in other languages enforce the rules differently.
- mardifoufs 5y ago> True for the England wikipedia, but the mods for the wikipedias in other languages enforce the rules differently. To sometimes very very mixed results (at best).
- wpietri 5y agoThe number of people who think themselves world experts in something is truly enormous. Wikipedia needs to be maintainable by people who aren't topic experts. They can't just go around anointing people that sound expert-y to them, as that would introduce far more bias, western and otherwise. Wikipedia's job isn't to push forward the frontiers of knowledge. It's to summarize the stuff you can look up elsewhere.
- BalinKing 5y agoI feel like this is probably a violation? I've edited out the first-person language and added a reference to the Wired article.
- ushakov 5y agoalso he has some personal comment in the last section somebody gotta explain him Wikipedia ain't a personal blog
- tux3 5y agoIronically, had he published on his personal blog under his name and credentials, it could have been accepted as a reliable source. (Though a Wired article is even better)
- tgsovlerkhgsel 5y agoWikipedia insists on secondary sources. Primary sources are not considered acceptable IIRC.
- tux3 5y agoSelf-published sources are generally not considered reliable: i.e. anyone can't just write a web page or a book and start quoting themselves on Wikipedia. That's clearly objectionable! Recognized domain experts who are routinely published in respectable journals is one of the main exceptions. Some relevant policy: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published_sources https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self...
- lmm 5y agoYou can use primary sources. There are rules about them and a preference for secondary sources, but no blanket ban.
- rvbissell 5y ago... and it's gone.
- 1024core 5y agoFTA: > For human subjects he would replace the sciatic nerve with a chemical cocktail known to stimulate neural growth. Anyone know what this "chemical cocktail" is they're referring to?
- xwdv 5y agoGotta be Lion’s Mane, or something with it. edit: haters will downvote me but look it up for yourself and upvote if you agree
- LinuxBender 5y agoIt does appear that is one of the molecules that will help stimulate production [1] but to what degree I can not tell. This might make for some fun reading on PubMed. I take half of those things they list but have no way to measure it. I would avoid commenting on the people down-voting you, that typically just makes it worse. [1] - https://www.neomed-clinic.com/the-best-nerve-growth-factor-supplements-and-how-to-increase-ngf https://www.neomed-clinic.com/the-best-nerve-growth-factor-s...
- renewiltord 5y agoThis is absolutely crazy cool. Perhaps modern surgical interventions will only progress one crazy risk taker at a time. Reminds me of Werner Forssman and catheterization! An example where overly cautious ethics killed so many people before a brave self-experimenter saved so many lives.
- fundamental 5y agoCertainly a unique experiment, however behind the scenes things were let down by poor experimental procedures, minimal experiment designs, outrageously inaccurate data analysis, and poor recording equipment.
- cmckn 5y agoYup, it's unfortunate that he took this kind of risk without having his t's crossed and i's dotted. The experiment could have been much more informative.
- fundamental 5y agoMy personal big disappointment was seeing objectively false claims being made at the society for neuroscience conference. It made it clear to me that the work was not being done in good faith.
- tsol 5y agoI'm not sure how much he actually accomplished, though. His experiment ultimately had to end prematurely, and his technology isn't be developed. In fact the mainstream is going in a more non-invasive route that could potentially be about as effective. I love the spirit of it, but honestly it is a crazy risk to take and as a researcher his brain is probably more valuable undamaged than as a research subject.
- gzer0 5y ago> His early fears of having damaged Kennedy for life turned out to be unfounded; the language loss that left his patient briefly locked in was just a symptom of postoperative brain swelling. While I am glad that there was minimal harm done here, I am perplexed as to why a Neurosurgeon would risk their decades of training and career for such a high-risk low reward surgery. This could have been a terrible ending. We should be weary about tampering with things we do not completely comprehend.
- oaktrout 5y agoI have a feeling the surgeon did the surgery because he was in Belize, you can probably get away with more there.
- fundamental 5y agoThis was almost certainly the case. It was extremely abnormal that the surgery happened at all.
- Nextgrid 5y agoOn the other hand, if someone wants to experiment on themselves, why not let them? Nobody is harmed if it doesn't work, and we can make quick breakthroughs that might be otherwise impossible due to ethics/etc.
- bawolff 5y agoI think its like drugs in sports - in principle you are only risking yourself, but if it becomes normalized you will have to do it no matter how you feel about it or risk getting left behind.
- 3np 5y agoScience is (supposed to be) a collaborative effort, not a zero-sum competitive game like sports. Of course people might get competitive about their careers and feel pressured to stay on top. But the discovery of one researcher should not be to the detriment of others.
- fundamental 5y agoLooks like there have been ongoing issues with his lab: https://www.fda.gov/inspections-compliance-enforcement-and-criminal-investigations/warning-letters/kennedy-philip-r-597587-02272020 https://www.fda.gov/inspections-compliance-enforcement-and-c...
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- xvector 5y agoTo undertake such tremendous personal risk to advance the state of brain-machine interfaces for us all - this guy is a hero in my book. Futurists and the general populace can hand-wave about humanity's glorious digital future all they want - it will not come to pass without heroes like this paving the way.
- fouc 5y agoPhil Kennedy is a hero. A bold risk-taker. The ultimate DIYer, experimenting directly on his own brain. And he's a scifi author to boot!
- DisjointedHunt 5y agoNot a hero, but a fool. Imagine what would the repercussions for the field be if the surgery went a little worse since it seems so badly planned from the outset? More restrictive regulation against the practice? All major funding either pulled outright or forever tainted with the stigma arising from this endeavor ? I don't know what it is about HN that this forum praises seemingly stupid pursuits such as a neurosurgeon choosing to operate on himself without (a) Validating the approach better and (b) Having a backup plan in case things went bad (No person in the US to come and care for him etc) and (c) Using antiquated electronics in the eyes of the very experts he was entrusting with the operation.
- fundamental 5y agoFrom the start it was done for show. He paraded himself around at least one neuroscience conference while still healing from getting the implant.
- theWreckluse 5y agoI’m surprised that this is not a more common opinion.
- cf141q5325 5y agoThe headline is quite a bit of clickbait. And the frame of the article is aimed at clicks and keeping the reader hooked by creating the impression he had made some monumental mistake. He had some brain swelling shortly after the surgery. Thats it. Still great to have posted it, amazing guy
- rjh29 5y agoThanks, headlines like these I always go straight to the comments to find out why the headline is totally wrong. It's quite satisfying. If you like this sort of thing check out the 'savedyouaclick' subreddit for more!
- mwattsun 5y agoThis is the greatest thing about Hacker News in my opinion. Obviously, there are limits on what I know so I depend on people here to help me out. Thank you! That said, I've learned that headlines are often not written by the authors of the article, but the magazine editor to drive clicks. “Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray’s case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues.” Gell-Mann Amnesia https://www.epsilontheory.com/gell-mann-amnesia/ https://www.epsilontheory.com/gell-mann-amnesia/
- cf141q5325 5y agoIts also a great danger. I didnt aim at giving a summary, i just called out the frame the author created. Something that "fao_" pointed out well when coming to the authors conclusion as well.
- mwattsun 5y agoI wasn't responding to the contents of the article, but the usefulness of Hacker News as a reality check. I skimmed the article. It's from 2016 so it's outdated and doesn't include comments about Elon Musk's Neuralink
- sha016 5y agoThe FDA has laid out the ethical groundwork: if a patient has no other options, a safe (sterile) surgery may be performed. It's only because they revoked his approval to use the specific type of implant. Would it really require so much money to demonstrate sterility? Or did Kennedy just not want to have to deal with bureaucracy and barely functional/dying patients and therefore took matters into his own hands? If so I don't blame him; if you can't communicate with your subject it's hard to make sure everything is being done right. To Kennedy, he had no other options.
- Helmut10001 5y agoLink to the article without paywall [1] [1]: https://www.wired.com./2016/01/phil-kennedy-mind-control-computer/ https://www.wired.com./2016/01/phil-kennedy-mind-control-com...
- amarant 5y agoThe story seems interesting enough, I'm curious what happened to him, what he discovered etc, but I can't take this style of writing.i would like to have a tldr version somewhere of this as I have no intention of putting my entire morning into skimming through every single insignificant detail of the developments. Or could anyone here just post a tldr summary perchance? Thanks.
- eternityforest 5y agoShould have said almost lost his brain function. Anyone who things an abled person wants a cell phone in their head probably already lost their mind in the colloquial sense long ago. It seems like he's doing amazing work that will really help a lot of people though. But being a cyborg doesn't sound all that great.
- evancoop 5y agoApart from the clickbait headline, there is an important division between restorative and augmentative applications of BCI. The former, when the patient has already suffered serious neurological injuries (or even paralysis) presents an attractive risk/reward ratio. The latter is dubious, even if only for the operation risks such as the swelling the article notes. Interesting to ponder where that dividing line resides.
- xvector 5y agoaugmentive BCI is literally the only route for humanity to conquer problems like death. this guy will go down in history as one of the few that paved the way for humanity to evolve beyond the horribly fragile flesh-and-meat sacks that we are today.
- Traubenfuchs 5y agoThis article is too long, I hate this style of writing. Here is something for the impatient. https://www.technologyreview.com/2015/11/09/247535/to-study-the-brain-a-doctor-puts-himself-under-the-knife/amp/ https://www.technologyreview.com/2015/11/09/247535/to-study-...
- tunesmith 5y agoYeah, it's like there's a hook, and then a whole lot of backstory before the hook comes back. I think authors rely on this too much as a crutch. It can work if the hook makes the reader actually wildly curious as to how that situation came about. But otherwise it comes across as like a turgid interruption. I also dislike it in television. It's one of JJ Abrams' favorite techniques. Open with some crazy scenario, and then "two weeks previous" comes up on the title screen. He did it all the time in Alias. Although I think it worked in Mission Impossible III.
- Traubenfuchs 5y agoI feel like it's all about the misguided notion of writers/reporters "adding something" to what happened. They are trying to enrich the raw story with their own style leading to this mess.